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[Mary Kirby]

I can't tell you anything about the expansion, as I've been on another project. I've got no idea who appears in it or in what capacity.



As far as the beacon goes: Loghain was supposed to hold his position until the full force of darkspawn was in that canyon. He could see some of what was happening, but he was in a side canyon with no vantage point to see the entire field. If he charged too early, his flanking maneuver would have failed spectacularly as his men got sandwiched between waves of darkspawn.

[Xandurpein]

Mary Kirby wrote...

I can't tell you anything about the expansion, as I've been on another project. I've got no idea who appears in it or in what capacity.

As far as the beacon goes: Loghain was supposed to hold his position until the full force of darkspawn was in that canyon. He could see some of what was happening, but he was in a side canyon with no vantage point to see the entire field. If he charged too early, his flanking maneuver would have failed spectacularly as his men got sandwiched between waves of darkspawn.

I take that to mean he wasn't able to see enough of the field to determine when the right time to strike was. I understand it as he could get a general feel for the battle (awful lot of darkspawn and the signal seem to be getting kind of late), but not enough to really KNOW what happened. Or in another way. He had enough information to convince himself it was hopeless, but he didn't really bother to check the facts. Is that about right?

[Wissenschaft]

Mary Kirby, your awesome. Loghain is such a great character but I prefer to have him kill the archdemon to redeem himself.

[Chas1024]

Mary Kirby wrote...
As far as the beacon goes: Loghain was supposed to hold his position until the full force of darkspawn was in that canyon. He could see some of what was happening, but he was in a side canyon with no vantage point to see the entire field. If he charged too early, his flanking maneuver would have failed spectacularly as his men got sandwiched between waves of darkspawn.

In that case the Grey Wardens seem to have pushed too far forward out of their canyon. Were they then planning to make a fighting withdrawal to draw the darkspawn in? A very difficult tactical manoeuvre to pull off.

Modifié par Chas1024, 18 janvier 2010 - 10:08 .

[Costin_Razvan]

Chas1024 wrote...

Mary Kirby wrote...
As far as the beacon goes: Loghain was supposed to hold his position until the full force of darkspawn was in that canyon. He could see some of what was happening, but he was in a side canyon with no vantage point to see the entire field. If he charged too early, his flanking maneuver would have failed spectacularly as his men got sandwiched between waves of darkspawn.

In that case the Grey Wardens seem to have pushed too far forward out of their canyon. Were they then planning to make a fighting withdrawal to draw the darkspawn in? A very difficult tactical manoeuvre to pull off.

Yet it has worked on some ocassions. Hannibal anyone?

[Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien]

Ulicus wrote...

Loghain's banter with Dog was incredible. I'm just sad he didn't have any campsite scenes with him.

Indeed, poor Adalla

[Chas1024]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Chas1024 wrote...

Mary Kirby wrote...
As far as the beacon goes: Loghain was supposed to hold his position until the full force of darkspawn was in that canyon. He could see some of what was happening, but he was in a side canyon with no vantage point to see the entire field. If he charged too early, his flanking maneuver would have failed spectacularly as his men got sandwiched between waves of darkspawn.

In that case the Grey Wardens seem to have pushed too far forward out of their canyon. Were they then planning to make a fighting withdrawal to draw the darkspawn in? A very difficult tactical manoeuvre to pull off.

Yet it has worked on some ocassions. Hannibal anyone?

Hannibal was indeed the master of this sort of tactic, if only he had been at Ostagar.

[I saved Star Wars :D]

Chas1024 wrote...

Hannibal was indeed the master of this sort of tactic, if only he had been at Ostagar.

He would have made some sort of bladed snow plow out of a chariot, elastic bands and some spare steel he found and mowed straight through the Darkspawn.

Or are we talking about a different Hannibal?

[Solica]

- Oh pleassse.
It's not really, at the solid bottom of things, a question of hatred. There are much more important issues to consider.
1: Loghain CANNOT be trusted! He's proved that umpteen times before, so the storyline after (if you leave him alive) is at best indifferent, since you'd have to be a fool committing an act of inexcusable stupidity and irresponsibility by exploring that path at all. As it stands, I think it's very weak and unconvincing, the low point of the game's story paths.
2: Loghain claims his acts are governed by his love for Ferelden. Bullcrap! Ferelden is first and last the king and the people who live there. Loghain betrayed his king and Ferelden's defenders to death and darkspawn, Ferelden's enemy. He waged civil war against half the people. He instigated murdering the Arls. He tortured the nobles. And he sold off the elves into slavery. "Love for Ferelden"? No, don't give me any of that. Love for personal POSSESSION of Ferelden!
3: But the most compelling reason to execute Loghain are the judicial and social consequences of letting him live. A lot of brave people resisted Loghain. Many of them perished or were tortured as a consequence. But many of them remains alive. How would the act of sparing Loghain, and maybe even let him attain hero status by killing the archdemon, reflect on those people? How would Loghain's supporters look upon those? If Loghain is an hero, wasn't he right all the way then? And supporting him was right all the way too? How can a society hope to heal and unite under such circumstances? No way! Loghain must die and his crimes must be exposed and condemned. There is no leeway to contain any other message. To do so would be a great injustice to all of Loghain's victims and all those brave and intelligent enough to oppose him. It's simply unthinkable.

Far more notable and interesting than the "hate" is maybe the love for Loghain, that so many express in various ways on this forum. It's quite clear that there is a very large group of people here who should never seek employment in a prison. Everybody, all monsters, A.H. Djingis Khan, sexualsadist massmurdering cannibals, whatever, all of them are, at the foundation of things, 'humans'. Discovering that about them doesn't make them suddenly alright, victims of some kind of 'misunderstanding'. Assuming that will only make you a naive fool and the next victim.

[Xandurpein]

Solica wrote...

- Oh pleassse.
It's not really, at the solid bottom of things, a question of hatred. There are much more important issues to consider.
1: Loghain CANNOT be trusted! He's proved that umpteen times before, so the storyline after (if you leave him alive) is at best indifferent, since you'd have to be a fool committing an act of inexcusable stupidity and irresponsibility by exploring that path at all. As it stands, I think it's very weak and unconvincing, the low point of the game's story paths.
2: Loghain claims his acts are governed by his love for Ferelden. Bullcrap! Ferelden is first and last the king and the people who live there. Loghain betrayed his king and Ferelden's defenders to death and darkspawn, Ferelden's enemy. He waged civil war against half the people. He instigated murdering the Arls. He tortured the nobles. And he sold off the elves into slavery. "Love for Ferelden"? No, don't give me any of that. Love for personal POSSESSION of Ferelden!
3: But the most compelling reason to execute Loghain are the judicial and social consequences of letting him live. A lot of brave people resisted Loghain. Many of them perished or were tortured as a consequence. But many of them remains alive. How would the act of sparing Loghain, and maybe even let him attain hero status by killing the archdemon, reflect on those people? How would Loghain's supporters look upon those? If Loghain is an hero, wasn't he right all the way then? And supporting him was right all the way too? How can a society hope to heal and unite under such circumstances? No way! Loghain must die and his crimes must be exposed and condemned. There is no leeway to contain any other message. To do so would be a great injustice to all of Loghain's victims and all those brave and intelligent enough to oppose him. It's simply unthinkable.

Far more notable and interesting than the "hate" is maybe the love for Loghain, that so many express in various ways on this forum. It's quite clear that there is a very large group of people here who should never seek employment in a prison. Everybody, all monsters, A.H. Djingis Khan, sexualsadist massmurdering cannibals, whatever, all of them are, at the foundation of things, 'humans'. Discovering that about them doesn't make them suddenly alright, victims of some kind of 'misunderstanding'. Assuming that will only make you a naive fool and the next victim.

Ah, yes. Everyone who do not share my point of view is an idiot. This debating technique has been used before on this forum, but it becomes netiher more compelling nor more acceptable, just because it's old.

If you really have to write this sort of trash, could you at least keep it to threads all about hating Loghain, rather than clutter a thread where one of the authors of the game has taken the time to share some of her time with us.

/Edit. The technique of claiming that the story is "weak" when it tells something that goes against your personal belief, suggesting that you are right, and the game are wrong, is...um... inventive, but it has been used before on this forum too, and it's not convincing this time either. I could point out errors in your argument, but since you are willing to discard any evidence from the game that you don't like as poor writing, I don't really see how we can discuss anything.

Modifié par Xandurpein, 18 janvier 2010 - 11:47 .

[Xandurpein]

Daveyboy154 wrote...

Chas1024 wrote...

Hannibal was indeed the master of this sort of tactic, if only he had been at Ostagar.

He would have made some sort of bladed snow plow out of a chariot, elastic bands and some spare steel he found and mowed straight through the Darkspawn.

Or are we talking about a different Hannibal?

The only historical Hannibal I'm aware of is Hannibal Barca of Carthage, and he did not employ scythed chariots in his armies, but he did use war elephants. I'm not sure if there is any animal in Fereldan to substitute though...

[Lotion Soronarr]

Loghain is a tragic, tragic figure. Victim of his own pride, blindness and stupidity.



I pitty him..but not enough to not execute him.

Would there be a big interest in a mod that adds more options at the Landsmeet?

[Chas1024]

Xandurpein wrote...
The only historical Hannibal I'm aware of is Hannibal Barca of Carthage, and he did not employ scythed chariots in his armies, but he did use war elephants. I'm not sure if there is any animal in Fereldan to substitute though...

Not only is there a lack  of war elephants but cavalry are conspicuous by their absence. Horses supposedly exist in Ferelden but I have yet to see one.

[Costin_Razvan]

I think Bioware didn't want to touch the subject of mounted combat, but there are certainly horses and cavalry in Fereldan. Rowan was the one who led the cavalry in the Stolen Throne for example, and the chevaliers fight mostly mounted.

[Solica]

Xandurpein wrote...
Ah, yes. Everyone who do not share my point of view is an idiot. This debating technique bla, bla..

.
 
I take it you built this, from me pointing out that trusting manipulative psychopaths is foolish? You make a lot of nothing then. Does this reoccuring "This debating technique... is old.." make you feel smart and analytical? If there is anything that is old, then it's this.

If you really have to write this sort of trash,..

It's not "trash". It's well laid out reasoning. It remains so, whatever you prefer to call it.

could you at least keep it to threads all about hating Loghain, rather than clutter a thread where one of the authors of the game has taken the time to share some of her time with us.

Ah, a rare point, in an otherwise emotionally driven dissing post. Yes, I suppose I have to somewhat concede that. In particular I shouldn't have started the post with "Oh pleasse ". That definitely set the tune a bit wrong. So, well, I regret that. But you see, she did make this mention of Loghain "hate".

The technique of claiming that the story is "weak" when it tells something that goes against your personal belief, suggesting that you are right, and the game are wrong, is...um... inventive, but it has been used before on this forum too, and it's not convincing this time either. I could point out errors in your argument, but since you are willing to discard any evidence from the game that you don't like as poor writing, I don't really see how we can discuss anything.

I'm not sure what you're up to here at all, except that you have no point, and your tired old "The technique of..." which you, for some reason, think is relevant, or maybe are so much in love with?
To take down things on the factual plane, instead of indulging your fantasies about rethorical superiority, I'm not discussing anything. I'm presenting a case of reasoning that has nothing to do with hate of Loghain.
You, on the other hand, is also not discussing anything. You're just making an hostile post to blow off some of your emotional steam.

Any area open to discussing, would seem to me to be either, the question whether some story paths are weak or not, or if Loghain can be trusted, or if sparing his life is a good choice. I cannot imagine what else you could see as a point of discussing?
As the game's written story goes: Loghain can be trusted. Sparing his life is a good choice. As far as the "evidence from the game", there is nothing to discuss about that. But as a player, I have no good reason to believe or do either, and plenty of compelling reasons to do other, and I presented my reasoning for that.
(is this weak or good story elements? - is another question. But I feel it's weak. I said as much and that I'd prefer not to follow those paths. And maybe I shouldn't have expressed that sentiment in this thread.)

Modifié par Solica, 18 janvier 2010 - 01:43 .

[Saryala]

Xandurpein wrote...
could you at least keep it to threads all about hating Loghain, rather than clutter a thread where one of the authors of the game has taken the time to share some of her time with us.

My thoughts exactly...

Nothing wrong about expessing your views but... come on!!! Did you even read the first post?


Edit --  ok, I read your post, only it wasn't there when I clicked on "reply"

Modifié par Saryala, 18 janvier 2010 - 01:01 .

[Solica]

Saryala wrote...

Xandurpein wrote...
could you at least keep it to threads all about hating Loghain, rather than clutter a thread where one of the authors of the game has taken the time to share some of her time with us.

My thoughts exactly...

Nothing wrong about expessing your views but... come on!!! Did you even read the first post?

Already conceded

[Kohaku]

"I assure you, I think of nothing else. I cry myself to sleep over their cruelty every night."



This is what makes me love him even more. ~Hugs Loghain so hard that he coughs in pain. He tries to push her off him to no avail~

[ReubenLiew]

Kerridan Kaiba wrote...

"I assure you, I think of nothing else. I cry myself to sleep over their cruelty every night."

This is what makes me love him even more. ~Hugs Loghain so hard that he coughs in pain. He tries to push her off him to no avail~

Does... does he turn into a lemonade?

[draxynnus]

3: But the most compelling reason to execute Loghain are the judicial and social consequences of letting him live. A lot of brave people resisted Loghain. Many of them perished or were tortured as a consequence. But many of them remains alive. How would the act of sparing Loghain, and maybe even let him attain hero status by killing the archdemon, reflect on those people? How would Loghain's supporters look upon those? If Loghain is an hero, wasn't he right all the way then? And supporting him was right all the way too? How can a society hope to heal and unite under such circumstances? No way! Loghain must die and his crimes must be exposed and condemned. There is no leeway to contain any other message. To do so would be a great injustice to all of Loghain's victims and all those brave and intelligent enough to oppose him. It's simply unthinkable.

This was something I thought after reading the "In defense of Loghain" post myself.

In fact, I think this is why Loghain is so calm about going to his death when defeated in the Landsmeet - at this point he's realised himself that his execution may be Ferelden's best chance to heal its wounds in time to face the darkspawn - especially since, at the time of the Landsmeet, his enemies greatly outnumbered his remaining allies.

[Solica]

ReubenLiew wrote...

Kerridan Kaiba wrote...

"I assure you, I think of nothing else. I cry myself to sleep over their cruelty every night."

This is what makes me love him even more. ~Hugs Loghain so hard that he coughs in pain. He tries to push her off him to no avail~

Does... does he turn into a lemonade?

Only with a lot of sugar.

[Kohaku]

@Reuben - Of course he does! You know I have him waiting on me hand and foot. Bringing me coffee...food... maps. He loves the maps.



@Solica - You think so? You don't think him a bitter lemonade?

[ReubenLiew]

Those damn maps! They're a ladykiller!

[Kohaku]

He can map me out anytime. ~Loghain runs away and she goes after him~

[Solica]

Kerridan Kaiba wrote...

@Solica - You think so? You don't think him a bitter lemonade?

Hmm, no not really. Not sure what you mean? A bitter lemonade to swallow? No, it doesn't turn out that way to me.

Loghain bitter? No, not really. He doesn't seem so to me. Not bitter. More acid like. It'll be fine with lots of sugar.

Modifié par Solica, 18 janvier 2010 - 01:51 .