135 réponses à ce sujet

[Kohaku]

Reuben... It's your fault I almost choked on my soda. Good job. Good job indeed.

[ReubenLiew]

Kerridan Kaiba wrote...

Reuben... It's your fault I almost choked on my soda. Good job. Good job indeed.

[AdorableAnarchist]

Ok, loved the interview! It totally made my day! I wonder whaty nug tastes like? I imagine kinda like rabbit, given the way they look, but maybe chicken? Everything tastes like chicken.

[Herr Uhl]

AdorableAnarchist wrote...

Ok, loved the interview! It totally made my day! I wonder whaty nug tastes like? I imagine kinda like rabbit, given the way they look, but maybe chicken? Everything tastes like chicken.

Probably pork-ish if it goes with pancakes.

[Solica]

Xandurpein wrote...

The easy answer is that he CAN be trusted. If you defeat him at the Landsmeet he will compare you to Maric, the only King he ever respected

Loghain is loyal to Ferelden, NOT the King. He swore to Maric never to put any man above the country.

3: But the most compelling reason to execute Loghain are the judicial and social consequences of letting him live. A lot of brave people resisted Loghain. Many of them perished or were tortured as a consequence. But many of them remains alive. How would the act of sparing Loghain, and maybe even let him attain hero status by killing the archdemon, reflect on those people? How would Loghain's supporters look upon those? If Loghain is an hero, wasn't he right all the way then? And supporting him was right all the way too? How can a society hope to heal and unite under such circumstances? No way! Loghain must die and his crimes must be exposed and condemned. There is no leeway to contain any other message. To do so would be a great injustice to all of Loghain's victims and all those brave and intelligent enough to oppose him. It's simply unthinkable.

If you personally feel that Loghain should be executed, then by all means go ahead and do it. The only evidence in the game however is that if you do let Loghain live, then a gossip in Denerim will say that people are relived that that the Warden let Loghain live. That is not evidence enough, but certainly an indication that people of Denerim don't quite see thing the way you do, or is that just poor writing?

Let's understand each other. My post was about that it wasn't an act of hatred to execute Loghain. The OP mentioned forum hate for Loghain. My elf don't like Loghain, but in the end it has little to do with the choice she takes. She is, most of all, responsible.

It seemed the only reasonable thing to do for my character at that point in the game. She hadn't read the novels.
I wasn't trying to be rude. I merely wanted to emphasize how clear the choice is, by pointing out that any other act by the char at this point would seem to be an act of gross stupidity. I certainly don't mean players choosing other paths are stupid. And I never said so. I said the act would be stupid. At that point, with those experiences.

1. Yes he can be trusted.

But my elf has most evidence and experience indicating other. He betrayed her at Ostagar and then framed her for the death of the King. His treacherous and ambitious daughter has also already betrayed my Warden twice, and also seem, in the end to be far closer involved with her father than she has previously pretended. I think trusting the Loghains is really far out.

2. Yes, in some mysterious ways, he believes himself to do what is best for Ferelden (which Ferelden is another question, the one on his beloved map? or the real Ferelden, with real Ferelden people?) He is, in fact only inept, and tragically doesn't realize it.

But my elf has only witnessed him doing disastrous things to Ferelden. And all of them seemingly only for one purpose, to put himself as a ruler.
She had seen him take every chance to indeed put two men above Ferelden, Loghain and Howe, again and again. She had seen him betray, conspire with malificars, poisioners, assassins to wreck Ferelden's social structures, start civil war, persecute Wardens, murder and torture nobility, murder and sell off elves into slavery. That, which he does all those things to, is Ferelden. And how are those acts transparant as love for, or loyalty to Ferelden?
He is the only one strong enough to save Ferelden from the Blight? But he doesn't even believe it's a real Blight? And that in turn seems to be why he is so unconcerned about harming the unity and military strength of Ferelden, for his grasp at power?

Well. She never tried to make sense out of this. Executing is the safer and easier way. It's just the life of one man, against many.

My point of concern #3, seem never to have been considered by the story writers. Thus it doesn't exist in the game. (It seems a reasonable and realistic concern to me, though.) But again, my elf did not know that this concern would magically evaporate to amount to nothing. So she did consider it.

I have already said that I think the story is a bit weak in this area. I have also said that it was wrong of me to express that opinion here, in this thread. So I think we can leave it at that.
My current play-through will spare Loghain. But I'm not really making this run "serious". Only my first ever is. My current human noble is more focused on Arl Howe, and is prepared to consider him mostly responsible. ...and other things.

Modifié par Solica, 18 janvier 2010 - 04:46 .

[Ulicus]

Wait, and now we know Loghain could see some of what was going on at the battle of Ostagar, too? The "if he could see anything he wouldn't need the beacon" argument has fallen?

SQUEEEEEEEEEEEE.

This thread has made me inordinately happy. And girly. And, ew, pink.

Modifié par Ulicus, 18 janvier 2010 - 05:17 .

[Xandurpein]

@Solicia



Let me first say that it's a lot more agreeable to read your last post on this thread than your first. If I felt provoked into making some depriciatory remarks, it's because I found your first post unnecessarily bellicose and souned as if it was you, not your chacter's view if you understand what I mean. We will still disgree on many points (and what would the fun be, if we didn't) but I respect your views.



Personally I think that we are all emotionally affected by this game and, like you say, it's the first play that is the "real" one. I know in my firstp lay I ended up with an ending that, without me wanting it at all, brought the worst out of alistair. It took me a long time to get a more objective view of him. This is not at all to insinuate any comparison between Alistar and Loghain. All I'm saying is that just as our emotions affect our plot choices, so does our plot choices affect us emotionally.



I can fully understand that anyone playing their first character as elf, and identfy themselves with the elves will have a very different ecxperience about Loghain's (in my book) greatest crime, the selling of elves as slaves, than someone not playing elf.



I also think that the impression you get of Anora makes a big difference too, as Anora is one of the prime sources of information about Loghain as man. If you find Anora scheming and untrustworthy, then I suppose you will discount or question what Anora says about Loghain. My character believed her and that is part of the reason why I decided to let him live.



I played a human noble. I figured that if Loghain was a true hero of Ferelden, then that would be something a lot more "real" to him than to an elf. My father would have fought with him. In the duel Loghain yielded to me and I felt intensly wrong at killing him on the spot when he yielded. There are many ways to reason I suppose.

[Solica]

Xandurpein wrote...

@Solicia

Let me first say that it's a lot more agreeable to read your last post on this thread than your first. If I felt provoked into making some depriciatory remarks, it's because I found your first post unnecessarily bellicose and souned as if it was you,

I absolutely agree. My first post was very, how should I say,.. rashly put together. I'm sorry about that.

[Xandurpein]

Solica wrote...

Xandurpein wrote...

@Solicia

Let me first say that it's a lot more agreeable to read your last post on this thread than your first. If I felt provoked into making some depriciatory remarks, it's because I found your first post unnecessarily bellicose and souned as if it was you,

I absolutely agree. My first post was very, how should I say,.. rashly put together. I'm sorry about that.

It's all right, we all post before the coffee once in a while

[Mary Kirby]

@ Solica: To be entirely fair, Loghain was always meant to be a character that you could justifiably kill in the Landsmeet. That's pretty much what we expected players to do. He has unquestionably committed heinous crimes. You have every reason to kill him.



The point was always that he wasn't a crazy, cackling, "I WANT TO DESTROY THE WORLD, BWAHAHAHAHA!" villain, and his motives were comphrensible if not especially admirable. He was human, and he screwed up, and by the end, he knew that. And if you so chose, you could save him from himself. I always kind of saw him as Magus from Chrono Trigger. He's definitely a bad guy even though he did have some good intentions, and sparing him sort of screws one of your buddies... but you can still make that call, and not be completely crazy to do so.



As for the effect on Ferelden society... Ferelden wasn't going to heal cleanly no matter what you chose. The civil war ends at the Landsmeet, but either way the Fereldens have been killing their friends, family, and neighbors for almost a year. If you spare Loghain, maybe his opponents continue to feel resentment, or maybe it could be seen as a gesture toward reconciliation, an example for both sides to follow. If you kill him, his supporters have no one left to follow, but that probably doesn't make their anger and resentment simply disappear. Either way, Ferelden's political climate is even more unstable than usual (and it never was very stable) for quite a long time.

[AntiChri5]

Mary Kirby wrote...

@ Solica: To be entirely fair, Loghain was always meant to be a character that you could justifiably kill in the Landsmeet. That's pretty much what we expected players to do. He has unquestionably committed heinous crimes. You have every reason to kill him.

The point was always that he wasn't a crazy, cackling, "I WANT TO DESTROY THE WORLD, BWAHAHAHAHA!" villain, and his motives were comphrensible if not especially admirable. He was human, and he screwed up, and by the end, he knew that. And if you so chose, you could save him from himself. I always kind of saw him as Magus from Chrono Trigger. He's definitely a bad guy even though he did have some good intentions, and sparing him sort of screws one of your buddies... but you can still make that call, and not be completely crazy to do so.

As for the effect on Ferelden society... Ferelden wasn't going to heal cleanly no matter what you chose. The civil war ends at the Landsmeet, but either way the Fereldens have been killing their friends, family, and neighbors for almost a year. If you spare Loghain, maybe his opponents continue to feel resentment, or maybe it could be seen as a gesture toward reconciliation, an example for both sides to follow. If you kill him, his supporters have no one left to follow, but that probably doesn't make their anger and resentment simply disappear. Either way, Ferelden's political climate is even more unstable than usual (and it never was very stable) for quite a long time.

I always saw recruiting Loggy as the best way to resolve the problems brought up by the civil war. Politically speaking, it is definately a good thing to have the leader of the other side of a civil war swear fealty to you.

[Costin_Razvan]

Perhaps, but you got to remember that most of those that were against Loghain, did so out of their own power-hungry reasons. Suffice to say I would not be surprised at ANOTHER civil war in awakening, regardless if you spared Loghain or not.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 18 janvier 2010 - 06:44 .

[Sandtigress]

Mary Kirby wrote...

The point was always that he wasn't a crazy, cackling, "I WANT TO DESTROY THE WORLD, BWAHAHAHAHA!" villain, and his motives were comphrensible if not especially admirable. He was human, and he screwed up, and by the end, he knew that. And if you so chose, you could save him from himself. I always kind of saw him as Magus from Chrono Trigger. He's definitely a bad guy even though he did have some good intentions, and sparing him sort of screws one of your buddies... but you can still make that call, and not be completely crazy to do so.

Agreed - my Dalish elf strongly believed in second chances, and was willing to give Loghain his.  Unfortunately, that had some rather unexpected repercussions amongst a particular member of the party she was very fond of, who she thought she would be able to talk down.  Given that aspect of things, its a harder choice to make from a player's standpoint, but she felt like he deserved a chance to redeem himself, and that he wanted to redeem himself.

I always felt like Loghain did what he had to do for the good of his country, even if that was a highly unpopular course of action.  It always seemed to me like he regretted what he had done in hind-sight, but probably would have done it again had he the chance to do it over, not seeing another way out of the situation.  He's just the kind of guy who isn't afraid to make despicable choices if that's what's necessary to get the job done the way he sees it needs to be done.

[Xandurpein]

@Mary Kirby
I do love the way developers take their time to talk with us on this forum. Thank you so much... unless appearing here takes time from writing the sequel of course, in that case... schoo! back to work!

[AntiChri5]

Xandurpein wrote...

@Mary Kirby
I do love the way developers take their time to talk with us on this forum. Thank you so much... unless appearing here takes time from writing the sequel of course, in that case... schoo! back to work!

Fully agreed!! Us little ingrates need more!!

[rancid727]

"I WANT TO DESTROY THE WORLD, BWAHAHAHAHA!"

As for the effect on Ferelden society... Ferelden wasn't going to heal cleanly no matter what you chose. The civil war ends at the Landsmeet, but either way the Fereldens have been killing their friends, family, and neighbors for almost a year. If you spare Loghain, maybe his opponents continue to feel resentment, or maybe it could be seen as a gesture toward reconciliation, an example for both sides to follow. If you kill him, his supporters have no one left to follow, but that probably doesn't make their anger and resentment simply disappear. Either way, Ferelden's political climate is even more unstable than usual (and it never was very stable) for quite a long time.

Should of let us just kill every one at the lands meet and name myself king!!

and any and all who dont like it can just try to take it away from me!

[Solica]

AntiChri5 wrote...

Mary Kirby wrote...
As for the effect on Ferelden society... Ferelden wasn't going to heal cleanly no matter what you chose. The civil war ends at the Landsmeet, but either way the Fereldens have been killing their friends, family, and neighbors for almost a year. If you spare Loghain, maybe his opponents continue to feel resentment, or maybe it could be seen as a gesture toward reconciliation, an example for both sides to follow. If you kill him, his supporters have no one left to follow, but that probably doesn't make their anger and resentment simply disappear. Either way, Ferelden's political climate is even more unstable than usual (and it never was very stable) for quite a long time.

I always saw recruiting Loggy as the best way to resolve the problems brought up by the civil war. Politically speaking, it is definately a good thing to have the leader of the other side of a civil war swear fealty to you.

That doesn't rhyme with history as I've read it. On the contrary, executing the "usurper" is the crucial act to bring about peace and order. It seem to work as a message that the struggle really is over and done with.

But that wasn't really so much in my elf's mind when she executed Loghain. She was more motivated by a more modern "truth" reasoning, that there shouldn't be any ambiguity about Loghain's role as a villain. So whatever Bioware writers thinks , the best way of healing the nation, in her mind, is the truth. That would cause decent men to realize that they've backed the wrong side. The new king would then of course leave them to live their lives in peace, as they swear fealty. The others? The bitterenders? They must be hunted down and exterminated in either case. But if Loghain is not allowed to be perceived as a hero, there should be less of them.

[Xandurpein]

Solica wrote...
But that wasn't really so much in my elf's mind when she executed Loghain. She was more motivated by a more modern "truth" reasoning, that there shouldn't be any ambiguity about Loghain's role as a villain. So whatever Bioware writers thinks , the best way of healing the nation, in her mind, is the truth. That would cause decent men to realize that they've backed the wrong side. The new king would then of course leave them to live their lives in peace, as they swear fealty. The others? The bitterenders? They must be hunted down and exterminated in either case. But if Loghain is not allowed to be perceived as a hero, there should be less of them.

I think you think too much in modern terms. During the middle ages ideology did not matter as much as it does today. You fight for your liege/clan/family and that was it. I think you overstimate the impact of the "truth" about Loghains actions on healing rifts in the country.

[Solica]

Xandurpein wrote...
I think you think too much in modern terms. During the middle ages ideology did not matter as much as it does today. You fight for your liege/clan/family and that was it. I think you overstimate the impact of the "truth" about Loghains actions on healing rifts in the country.

You're right in that my elf was thinking in modern terms. I was consciously aware of that. But thinking in modern terms tend to work, in modern games and fiction,  regardless of the setting. They're aimed at a modern audience, after all.

[Solica]

Other random thoughts about this. Loghain is just a peasant thief, after all, to apply medieval class thinking. Then there is the propaganda, considerable smearing Richard III, to unite England after the Tudors usurped the throne. Don't say ideology didn't matter. Like the great religion wars,.. etc.

While those examples prove that lies work just as well as truth, they still provide some support for my approach.

[KnightofPhoenix]

In my opinion, the true leader is one who succeeds in turning his former enemies into his greatest allies and give them a chance to do what they always wanted: serve their people. And that was the model (personified best in Prophet Muhammad imo) I followed when I spared Loghain. And the way he was written and portrayed (awesome voice acting) just strengthens my resolve to spare him. But that's just me, in the playthroughs that I identify with the most. Some of my other PCs will kill him for various reasons.

[Tor_pedo]

Some people just hate Loghain because they don't understand human nature and  how easily one is seduced to the darker side, or to "follow the crowd" or how wrong decitions have a habit of just making you dig deeper and deeper with no way out. You'd be surprised at what you are capable of given the right (or wrong) circumstances.
Not saying the man doesn't deserve death, or that he's not a bastard. Perhaps he's just got a different view of things. Hardened by war, his oath, the *prophecy*, etc. How do you judge someone who's only doing what he thinks is right? Some can relate to that and some can't. (Both in-game chars, and real ppl).
It breaks my heart every time I chop his head off, just cus i keep thinking "but he only did what he thought was right!" I guess I just have a habit of sympathising with villains. Or just the hots for bad guys idk...
But why replay a game if you're just making the same choices, so QQ for me
Although sparing Log and forcing a naked Ali to marry Anora was a great laugh  Angry Alistair is hot. I guess my char is either a bit*h or an extremely cold and practical person

Regardless: <3 Loghain. Especially after this thread So thank you for the Q & A, now i wish there were more in-game conversations/ part banter with Mr. Mac Tir

[Zavrian]

I'm going to regret asking this....



Why is this even a debate at all?



If you want to kill Loghain, you can.



If you want to spare Loghain, you can.



Each side of the argument can play the game their way. Then there are those like me, who decide one way or the other depending on what character they play. My Dwarven Commoner cheerfuly chopped him up, my Elven Mage reluctantly ended his life, and my City Elf, a cold vengeful woman, both understands some of his reasoning yet also hates him enough to spare him only to make him obey her orders. To her mind, being a Warden and a member of the party is Loghain's own personal Alienage.



Some people sympathize with Loghain. Some pragmatic folks find him useful. And some, for various reasons, hack his head off. Everybody gets what they want, and everybody wins. Let it go!

[Costin_Razvan]

It's never going to end as long as Alistair's fans continue to bash those of us who spare Loghain, stating that we have absolutely no reason to spare him.

[melkathi]

Zavrian wrote...

I'm going to regret asking this....

Why is this even a debate at all?

If you want to kill Loghain, you can.

If you want to spare Loghain, you can.

Each side of the argument can play the game their way. Then there are those like me, who decide one way or the other depending on what character they play. My Dwarven Commoner cheerfuly chopped him up, my Elven Mage reluctantly ended his life, and my City Elf, a cold vengeful woman, both understands some of his reasoning yet also hates him enough to spare him only to make him obey her orders. To her mind, being a Warden and a member of the party is Loghain's own personal Alienage.

Some people sympathize with Loghain. Some pragmatic folks find him useful. And some, for various reasons, hack his head off. Everybody gets what they want, and everybody wins. Let it go!

Are you asking people not to argue over meaningless stuff on the internet?