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What do the reamining companions do when Shepard's squad is on a mission?


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#76
MassivelyEffective0730

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Necanor wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Actually, according to BW's survey, the majority save the Geth. 

And that's subjective. I believe the Geth have far more utility and military capability than the Quarians. 

Remember the talk on perspective and opinion?


Because you're ruthless. You don't care for sacrifice or morals, only for efficiency. Remember that Stalin comparission? Stalin achieved his goals and only sacrificed 20 million lives for it, he should be Cerberus' new mascot. Progress over morals.


Yes I am ruthless. I care for sacrifice and morals - I just don't have the same definition of them as you do. You seem to be having trouble recognizing that. 

#77
Sir DeLoria

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Psychevore wrote...
You seem to dislike him, and the Geth. I do not. 

I also do not give a rat's ass about innocent civilians. It's not like we're fighting something we can kill with a warp or a pistol.


Let's say it this way: you win anyway, Geth war assets are lower than Quarian assets and assets barely matter anyway. So the sacrifice of civillians isn't mandatory, you don't have to sacrifice anybody. I guess some people just enjoy the sight of innocents being slaughtered.:D

#78
Sir DeLoria

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MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Yes I am ruthless. I care for sacrifice and morals - I just don't have the same definition of them as you do. You seem to be having trouble recognizing that. 


I recognize it, I just can't comprehend the thought. Every life counts.

#79
Guest_Cthulhu42_*

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Psychevore wrote...

Cthulhu42 wrote...

Psychevore wrote...

Cthulhu42 wrote...
Koris? He's a whining geth-apologist suit-wetter with a penchant for putting on show trials. I would have gladly let him die if it didn't end in the deaths of innocent civilians.
Still a better Admiral than Raan though. At least he seems competent.

You need to realize that, if I had not been given the option to broker peace, I'd let the Quarians be slaughtered without any hesitation
So Koris is my kinda guy

Why do I need to realize that? It has no bearing on anything I said.

You seem to dislike him, and the Geth. I do not. 
I also do not give a rat's ass about innocent civilians. It's not like we're fighting something we can kill with a warp or a pistol.

You realize that in no way answers my question.

#80
Dextro Milk

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Cthulhu42 wrote...

Psychevore wrote...

Cthulhu42 wrote...

Psychevore wrote...

Cthulhu42 wrote...
Koris? He's a whining geth-apologist suit-wetter with a penchant for putting on show trials. I would have gladly let him die if it didn't end in the deaths of innocent civilians.
Still a better Admiral than Raan though. At least he seems competent.

You need to realize that, if I had not been given the option to broker peace, I'd let the Quarians be slaughtered without any hesitation
So Koris is my kinda guy

Why do I need to realize that? It has no bearing on anything I said.

You seem to dislike him, and the Geth. I do not. 
I also do not give a rat's ass about innocent civilians. It's not like we're fighting something we can kill with a warp or a pistol.

You realize that in no way answers my question.

That guy you are talking to is hella wack tbh

#81
Soldier096

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Necanor Wrote...

Because you're ruthless. You don't care for sacrifice or morals, only for efficiency. Remember that Stalin comparission? Stalin achieved his goals and only sacrificed 20 million lives for it, he should be Cerberus' new mascot. Progress over morals.

Saving only the Geth still isn't very efficient. The Maximum Geth war assets is 820 and the Maximum Quarian Assets is 830. You lose a squad mate if you go with the Geth. The Geth also could be destroyed when the Crucible is activated. If you save only the Geth you get screwed in the end. There are no benefits for siding with the Geth.

#82
MassivelyEffective0730

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Necanor wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...
I don't think any culture is inherently superior to the other, provided they aren't doing anything to a massive extreme with a violation towards life. Krogans do that, and they need to either be corrected, or annihilated. I do view the genophage as rash, though ultimately necessary.

Instead of going on a lengthy talk about personal perspective, including ethics, morality, and worldview, I'll simply turn the question onto you:

I don't get why you think emotions are so important. They're irrelevant to facts, and typically cloud judgement for the subjectiveness of a viewpoint. They get in the way of logic. I won't lie, I don't place emphasis on art to the same level as you. I think science, engineering, and advancement as a species is more important, but thats me. Just as you are you.

You seem to be displaying a propensity for cultural ignorance. I don't mean that in a offensive way, but it seems like you're genuinely having trouble seeing things from a different perspective.


Emotions and morals guide us. Emotions are the key factor of sociology and in my opinion one of the most important factors in life. I'm an idealist, sacrifice of life for scientific progress is not worthy sacrifice(that's why I despise Cerberus). I'm a helpless romantic, I can't fathom how anyone could disregard emotions as irrelevant. Emotions are what makes us human, they are what divides us from machines.


Ethics and the desire for progress guide us. I'd rather not have emotions leading us. That tends to lead to issues concerning logic, reasoning, and understanding. Emotions cloud our judgment. They can be good on their own, separate from logic and reasoning, but a philosophy ordained completely by them does not advance and will typically lead to catastrophe. 

Emotions are not what makes us human. There is no one thing that makes us human. Emotions alone are little more than chemical reactions in your brain that cause changes in consciousness and thought. It's how we let our emotions dictate our reasoning that holds us down. Being completely emotion based and instinctive probably wouldn't lead us to much advancement.

I am an idealist too, though I don't use your definition of idealism. I genuinely want the world to be a better place for everyone to practice their life in the manner they deem best for themselves and built on pillars of logic, understanding, and cooperation. You don't need emotion to get there. I'm not saying emotion should be banned. On its own, it's important to person in everyday life. I'd rather say that one would be unhealthy if they were unable to feel emotion or empathy. I'm saying it's irrelevant to achieving that vision. 

Sacrifice of life for science is relevant to me only if the means are outweighed by the ends. 

It's why I'm perfectly accepting, even lamenting of what could have been accomplished at Sanctuary versus what, say, Dr. Mengele and his Roma twins.

Cerberus does what they do in the name of science, and they acknowledge what they do as unethical but worthy of the means that benefit others.

Mengele did experiments in science, in the name of torture. Mengele was a sadist. 

It comes down to context. If Cerberus didn't do what they did, would there have been anyone to fight the Reapers? The alliance and the council certainly weren't doing anything. By inaction and incompetence, they're already far worse than Cerberus on their darkest day in my eyes. They're basically damning the galaxy by not caring.

Maybe if the alliance and council actually did their job, Cerberus' actions wouldn't have been necessary hmm?

And as you say about emotion, I say about logic and reason: Logic and reason is what separates us from barbarians.

I'm sorry if that sounds harsh to you. Here's a more in-depth look at my support for synthesis.

Modifié par MassivelyEffective0730, 22 juin 2013 - 05:26 .


#83
MassivelyEffective0730

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Necanor wrote...

Psychevore wrote...
You seem to dislike him, and the Geth. I do not. 

I also do not give a rat's ass about innocent civilians. It's not like we're fighting something we can kill with a warp or a pistol.


Let's say it this way: you win anyway, Geth war assets are lower than Quarian assets and assets barely matter anyway. So the sacrifice of civillians isn't mandatory, you don't have to sacrifice anybody. I guess some people just enjoy the sight of innocents being slaughtered.:D


I don't see how the Geth assets are less than the Quarians. In fact, I distinctly remember that in my game, the Geth assets are worth more than my Quarian assets. I make peace.

Civilians are irrelevant to me in the war against the Reapers. They aren't fighting, and they aren't contributing. 

What use are they? 

I have a few uses for them.

#84
The Night Mammoth

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MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Necanor wrote...

Psychevore wrote...
You seem to dislike him, and the Geth. I do not. 

I also do not give a rat's ass about innocent civilians. It's not like we're fighting something we can kill with a warp or a pistol.


Let's say it this way: you win anyway, Geth war assets are lower than Quarian assets and assets barely matter anyway. So the sacrifice of civillians isn't mandatory, you don't have to sacrifice anybody. I guess some people just enjoy the sight of innocents being slaughtered.:D


I don't see how the Geth assets are less than the Quarians. In fact, I distinctly remember that in my game, the Geth assets are worth more than my Quarian assets. I make peace.

Civilians are irrelevant to me in the war against the Reapers. They aren't fighting, and they aren't contributing. 

What use are they? 

I have a few uses for them.

Building materials. Food. Manual labour. Diversions. 

#85
kilgore kalros

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jacob is the welcoming committee. he studies up on new recruits then forms an opinion about them and voices it when they arrive. then i tell him to stfu

#86
Soldier096

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MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

I don't see how the Geth assets are less than the Quarians. In fact, I distinctly remember that in my game, the Geth assets are worth more than my Quarian assets. I make peace.

Civilians are irrelevant to me in the war against the Reapers. They aren't fighting, and they aren't contributing. 

What use are they? 

I have a few uses for them.

The Geth assets were more because you saved the Heretic base.
Heretic Base destroyed: Maximum Quarian war assets is 830. Geth are reduced to about 500 assets.
Heretic Base saved: Maximum Geth assets is 820. Quarians are reduced to about 500 assets.

#87
MassivelyEffective0730

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Soldier096 wrote...

Necanor Wrote...

Because you're ruthless. You don't care for sacrifice or morals, only for efficiency. Remember that Stalin comparission? Stalin achieved his goals and only sacrificed 20 million lives for it, he should be Cerberus' new mascot. Progress over morals.

Saving only the Geth still isn't very efficient. The Maximum Geth war assets is 820 and the Maximum Quarian Assets is 830. You lose a squad mate if you go with the Geth. The Geth also could be destroyed when the Crucible is activated. If you save only the Geth you get screwed in the end. There are no benefits for siding with the Geth.


From a meta-game perspective, perhaps not.

I'd still rather trust their ships than the Quarians. Geth soldiers don't have the same weaknesses that organics have, especially the breathtakingly vulnerable Quarians. They don't need food, water, air, rest, breathing equipment, shelter, relief, or distraction. They aren't going to be plagued by injury or illness. They have much stronger materials physically and can fight where few other organics can.

In a fight, they seem to be the much more valuable choice. 

If I had to choose between the Geth and Quarians, I'd choose the Geth everytime.

And everything needs to be devoted to fighting the Reapers. Everything's worth is now based on inherent military value. The Quarians simply can't engage in total war like the Geth can. 

#88
MassivelyEffective0730

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Soldier096 wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

I don't see how the Geth assets are less than the Quarians. In fact, I distinctly remember that in my game, the Geth assets are worth more than my Quarian assets. I make peace.

Civilians are irrelevant to me in the war against the Reapers. They aren't fighting, and they aren't contributing. 

What use are they? 

I have a few uses for them.

The Geth assets were more because you saved the Heretic base.
Heretic Base destroyed: Maximum Quarian war assets is 830. Geth are reduced to about 500 assets.
Heretic Base saved: Maximum Geth assets is 820. Quarians are reduced to about 500 assets.


No ****. You don't need to tell me. I was being rhetorical and/or possibly condescending.

#89
MassivelyEffective0730

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The Night Mammoth wrote...

Building materials. Food. Manual labour. Diversions. 


What happens when you reach the equilibrum economic utility?

Not every civilian can be effectively used in those manners. What happens when the resources going in supercede the resources coming out? What happens when you're no longer making a profit off of the resources?

What happens when you no longer get the biggest payoff for the lowest amount of labor? How long until you're spending more to train a number of recruits than you are getting a return?

That's equilibrium.

When I go past that point, it's time for the remaining civilians to be given a practical use:

Bait. As Javik says, they can be a resource of their own.

Ever hear of the Redecker Plan from World War Z?

Put them on abandoned colonies on Reaper attacked worlds or planets in the Reapers path. Let them be harvested. Use nuclear devices on said cities to prevent their use by the Reapers (and kill a few Reapers too). 

Buy as much time for the military and scientists as possible. It won't last forever, and the Reapers are obviously far more intelligent than Zombies, but if it works...

Modifié par MassivelyEffective0730, 22 juin 2013 - 05:42 .


#90
Fixers0

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Every Civilian can be conscripted to fight and die in the name of the god Empe... Shepard.

#91
Sir DeLoria

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Understanding and science are extremely important no doubt. But understanding alone doesn't help. Every dictator in history and their commanders were smart and understanding, yet their moral and emotional flaws led to the deaths of hundreds of millions.

Also, on the subject of Geth. Even if you had to choose between a less great species, like Batarians and Geth, I'd always choose the organics. Synthetics can't be trusted, they've sold themselves to the reapers before, they'll do it again. The only thing they care about is survival, morals mean sh*t to them.

Also, it's like choosing between a person and a toaster. Even if I need a new toaster and don't like the person, I'd choose to save him.

You talked about individual life and prowess? Well, I see it the stoic way, people may never only care for themselves, but for their community. The Quarians are the very definition of that philosophy(another reason why I like them).

#92
MassivelyEffective0730

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Fixers0 wrote...

Every Civilian can be conscripted to fight and die in the name of the god Empe... Shepard.


Sure. Hand them a rifle and point them at the Reapers and say "fight."

It will let the actual military soldiers and civilians who are useful escape.

If we defeat the Reapers, then the sacrifice of those civilians wasn't in vain.

#93
in it for the lolz

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They play Russian Roulette.

#94
Sir DeLoria

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MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...
What happens when you reach the equilibrum economic utility?

Not every civilian can be effectively used in those manners. What happens when the resources going in supercede the resources coming out? What happens when you're no longer making a profit off of the resources?
When I go past that point, it's time for the remaining civilians to be given a practical use:

Bait. As Javik says, they can be a resource of their own.

Put them on abandoned colonies on Reaper attacked worlds or planets in the Reapers path. Let them be harvested. Use nuclear devices on said cities to prevent their use by the Reapers (and kill a few Reapers too). 

Buy as much time for the military and scientists as possible. It won't last forever, and the Reapers are obviously far more intelligent than Zombies, but if it works...


Once we see civilians as expendable ressources, we've already lost. We could win, but we'd sell our soul to the devil(metaphorically). Every life counts. The Protheans like Javik said, tried that tactic and got eradicated, perhaps for the better.

Modifié par Necanor, 22 juin 2013 - 05:49 .


#95
MassivelyEffective0730

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Necanor wrote...

Understanding and science are extremely important no doubt. But understanding alone doesn't help. Every dictator in history and their commanders were smart and understanding, yet their moral and emotional flaws led to the deaths of hundreds of millions.

Also, on the subject of Geth. Even if you had to choose between a less great species, like Batarians and Geth, I'd always choose the organics. Synthetics can't be trusted, they've sold themselves to the reapers before, they'll do it again. The only thing they care about is survival, morals mean sh*t to them.

Also, it's like choosing between a person and a toaster. Even if I need a new toaster and don't like the person, I'd choose to save him.

You talked about individual life and prowess? Well, I see it the stoic way, people may never only care for themselves, but for their community. The Quarians are the very definition of that philosophy(another reason why I like them).


Do you know political science? At all? Or philosophy? Or history for that matter? There's a reason a lot of those people were nutjobs. But there's also a reason people with strong wills and somewhat dispassionate mindsets like them ever seem to get into power. They're the only ones with the will and capability to do things. Most of the masses, your artists and culturists, aren't leaders. They can't lead. They won't. They'll sit back as the world burns.

Writing "poetry". Making "music". 

As for synthetics, I'm sorry you feel that way. I also find it peculiar that you call other species as "lesser". That isn't racist or anything.

I will say that the Quarians attacked the Geth unnecessarily.

The Quarians directly put the Geth in a position of being between a rock and a hard place. The Geth didn't want to side with the Reapers, but they had little choice.

Are you suggesting that the Geth just sit back and be destroyed by Quarian aggression? I don't like that the Geth went to the Reapers. I hate it, and I think it's a Faustian bargain.

And I completely blame the Quarians for it. The Geth knew what they were doing was a really bad idea, but what can you do when God and his angels are at your door with fire and pitchforks? If Satan was there offering me a way out, I'd take it.

It's survivalism. This whole war with the Reapers is about surviving. 

Being "moral" doesn't help you survive. It doesn't help you fight back. It doesn't beat the Reapers.

Morals are useless against the Reapers. They have none. They aren't bounded to them. Why should we be? 

I care for my civilization too. But I also know when my civilization is being completely stupid and taking terrible choices that will lead to destruction. So I dissent from my civilization and try to change, and force change if necessary, in order to save it.

#96
Sir DeLoria

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Also we know, that the Reapers can't be defeated conventionally. The Crucible is our only hope. Thus, the Quarians are the better choice, they're technical savants, very smart and motivated. For the purpose of rebuilding, they are superior to the Geth.

#97
Erez Kristal

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how do you know that the reapers cant be defeated conventionally, what is conventionally anyway? and why is having a giant gun that destroy only reapers isnt conventionally.

The reapers are the one making the terms.
You have to keep up or perish.

This is why everyone love those thanix guns.

#98
MassivelyEffective0730

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Necanor wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...
What happens when you reach the equilibrum economic utility?

Not every civilian can be effectively used in those manners. What happens when the resources going in supercede the resources coming out? What happens when you're no longer making a profit off of the resources?
When I go past that point, it's time for the remaining civilians to be given a practical use:

Bait. As Javik says, they can be a resource of their own.

Put them on abandoned colonies on Reaper attacked worlds or planets in the Reapers path. Let them be harvested. Use nuclear devices on said cities to prevent their use by the Reapers (and kill a few Reapers too). 

Buy as much time for the military and scientists as possible. It won't last forever, and the Reapers are obviously far more intelligent than Zombies, but if it works...


Once we see civilians as expendable ressources, we've already lost. We could win, but we'd sell our soul to the devil(metaphorically). Every life counts. The Protheans like Javik said, tried that tactic and got eradicated, perhaps for the better.


As an atheist, I don't believe in souls. I rather despise the notion of there being something "holy" and "sanctimonious" about the "soul". 

The Protheans had a separate methodology. They blindly gave up resources that they could have used and failed to adapt strategy and tactics to properly confront the Reapers. That's why they lost. 

It wasn't that they treated their civilians as expendable (which they rightfully did so in my opinion). It's that they failed to use them at all as resources.

Every life counts yes. Including the lives of the future. Infinitely more will live in the future than today. So I will sacrifice many today for all in the future. They're expendable resources. 

They aren't going to live, no matter what I do.

If I waste my resources saving and protecting them, then I have nothing to protect them with later when the Reapers come again. 

They die.

If I use them as bait to lure the Reapers away from my important resources, I can at least use them to distract the Reapers and kill them with nuclear weapons (taking out a few Reapers as well). 

They die, but at least I got a gain out of it. And their death by my nukes are far more merciful than harvesting by a Reaper.


I might as well make them useful before and when they die. 

Pure. Cold. Calculated. Hard. Logic.

Brilliance.

#99
Sir DeLoria

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The reasons why they took power are: depression, propaganda and charisma.

You judge people in the wrong light, artist aren't meant to lead, but people shouldn't be judged by their leadership skills. Art and music are important to the war effort and moral in their own important ways.

I find it peculiar, that you talk about racism. My argument could have been yours in writting style, I judged the Batarians for their morals and achievements. Something you do all the time.

#100
MassivelyEffective0730

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Necanor wrote...
 Thus, the Quarians are the better choice, they're technical savants, very smart and motivated. For the purpose of rebuilding, they are superior to the Geth.


On what are you basing this from? Can you show me where, anywhere, where the game states that?

I'll wait for you to provide me proof. I don't believe you can, since there is none.

As for the conventional warfare, it buys us time to build the Crucible, and the intact military (also boosted) gives it protection for the final battle.