206 réponses à ce sujet

[DeinonSlayer]

Finn the Jakey wrote...

Its even worse considering how the choice is worded to the player, you have

-Upload Code (Doesn't even tell you what happens)
or
-Let Geth Die

The latter might as well have had 'You Bastard' put on the end for good measure. <_<

Anyone paying attention to the dialogue at that point knows it's really Kill the Quarians or Kill the Geth. The former isn't called as such so Shepard can pretend afterwards that it wasn't his fault.

Arguably, the second option could be called Stop the Upload. Shepard simply voices opposition to the upload, and Legion/Geth VI is then brought down in the process of trying to kill Shepard. (EDIT: Actually, it is called Stop the Upload at the second wheel if you choose to upload the code in the first one.)

I had a thread on how that could have been handled, too. I really wish peace without uploading the code was a viable option.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 22 juin 2013 - 10:51 .

[CronoDragoon]

Paintball.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

NeroonWilliams wrote...

Necanor wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Actually, according to BW's survey, the majority save the Geth. 

And that's subjective. I believe the Geth have far more utility and military capability than the Quarians. 

Remember the talk on perspective and opinion?

Because you're ruthless. You don't care for sacrifice or morals, only for efficiency. Remember that Stalin comparission? Stalin achieved his goals and only sacrificed 20 million lives for it, he should be Cerberus' new mascot. Progress over morals.

I'm actually pretty sure this has more to do with mindless Paragon players not having played the first 2 games believing they can broker peace and then failing that, refusing to take those Renegade interrupts to stop the upload.  Had that one sneak up on me in one playthrough.

I am the last person to call mindless paragon. 

I, and my Shepard, know what I'm doing. If I can't make peace, I'm saving the Geth for a multitude of reasons.

Even if the Geth didn't already have a good case (in my opinion) backing them up, I would still throw the Quarians under the bus, unless I knew for certain that the Geth were still under Reaper control.

As I said, I believe the Geth are more useful for combating the Reapers. I would voluntarily and unhesitatingly damn millions of Quarians to death for the Geth.

Because I believe that if I didn't damn the Quarians, I'd be damning everybody else. 

I don't trust them. I don't trust their ships. I don't trust their technology from not failing being as decrepit as it is. I don't trust them to do what might need to be done to beat the Reapers.

That's hardly a paragon outlook don't you think?

Modifié par MassivelyEffective0730, 22 juin 2013 - 11:32 .

[Ninja Stan]

This discussion is starting to get a little heated. Let's remember that we can disagree with each other without name-calling or insults. Thank you.

[Sir DeLoria]

Ok, we disagree over morals that's obvious. But no sane person would commit genocide on a race, for no reason. Let's not forget, that this is just a game and the decision has 0 effect on the outcome of the game.

If I was the council, I'd have Shep tried for assisting genocide after this madness.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Necanor wrote...

Ok, we disagree over morals that's obvious. But no sane person would commit genocide on a race, for no reason. Let's not forget, that this is just a game and the decision has 0 effect on the outcome of the game.

If I was the council, I'd have Shep tried for assisting genocide after this madness.

I agree. Committing genocide 'for no reason' is pretty pointless. And evil. 

I also agree on the second point, though I wish it were otherwise. Alas, all I can say is 'wtf, seriously BW?', and take my business to a company that has earned it.

But you'd put the guy who just saved the galaxy on trial?

Yeah, maybe he committed genocide a few times during the Reaper war.

If he didn't, then the Reapers might have won, and committed genocide on all the races.

My Shepard did what had to be done for the galaxy. Everyone that is alive, and everyone that will ever live, will do so because Shepard made the decisions and actions and choices he did. 

No regrets, no remorse.

[Sir DeLoria]

No remorse? One of the galaxy's bigget races got whiped out, no remorse? Sorry, but I can't wrap my head around that.

But yeah, we know that the Quarian fleet is stronger than the Geths', so the Reapers still wouldn't have won. And yeah, I'd put him on trial regardless.

[NeroonWilliams]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

I am the last person to call mindless paragon. 

I, and my Shepard, know what I'm doing. If I can't make peace, I'm saving the Geth for a multitude of reasons.

Even if the Geth didn't already have a good case (in my opinion) backing them up, I would still throw the Quarians under the bus, unless I knew for certain that the Geth were still under Reaper control.

As I said, I believe the Geth are more useful for combating the Reapers. I would voluntarily and unhesitatingly damn millions of Quarians to death for the Geth.

Because I believe that if I didn't damn the Quarians, I'd be damning everybody else. 

I don't trust them. I don't trust their ships. I don't trust their technology from not failing being as decrepit as it is. I don't trust them to do what might need to be done to beat the Reapers.

That's hardly a paragon outlook don't you think?

I would certainly not catagorize you as a mindless ANYTHING player Massively.  One of my own Shepards played out Rannoch just like you described.  I was merely making a general exptrapolation from a global set of data that fits.  New games begun in ME3 CAN'T broker peace between the Geth and Quarians and a chronically Paragon player will choose to save the Geth over the Quarians because the choice to save the Geth is presented in the "Paragon" position, leading to a skewed set of data showing more people saving the Geth than would if they thought about it.

Remember, just by being here on the BSN you have shown yourself to be an exceptional player.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Necanor wrote...

No remorse? One of the galaxy's bigget races got whiped out, no remorse? Sorry, but I can't wrap my head around that.

But yeah, we know that the Quarian fleet is stronger than the Geths', so the Reapers still wouldn't have won. And yeah, I'd put him on trial regardless.

17 million isn't a very large population. Compared to 11 billion humans on Earth alone? Compared to the 5 billion Asari on Thessia alone?

11,000,000,000
 
vs.

17,000,000.

15% of 1% of the human population of Earth. It's simple math.

17 million divided by 11 billion equals 0.0015. 

The entire Quarian population in the entire galaxy is equal to 15 percent, of 1 percent of the population of Earth.

The entire population of the Quarians is less than the population of Australia. 

Less than the entire population of the state of New York.

Less than the entire population of the city of Shanghai.

According to the codex, 1.86 million humans are harvested by Reapers every day. At the current rate of processing, it will take the Reapers 11 years to clean out the population of Earth.

If the Reapers did the same to the Quarians, it would take 9.14 days.

So yes. No remorse. More people are at stake than the Quarians. A lot more.

They died. If they didn't die, we'd have all died. 

I sacrifice their population, so that all the other populations didn't have to die. 

Or are you not basing this on headcanon anymore? Because that's what your assertion is doing.

You're justifying your actions through headcanon. I'm doing the same now.

You can't objectively say the Quarians are stronger than the Geth, because it simply isn't true. It's certainly not true in my game. I have more Geth assets than Quarian assets. The Geth have more potential than the Quarians in my game.

Put Shepard on trial in your universe if you wish. It's your headcanon. Seems like a pretty crappy way to treat the guy who just saved your life, and your familiy's lives, and your planet, and your species....
 

Modifié par MassivelyEffective0730, 23 juin 2013 - 12:41 .

[MassivelyEffective0730]

NeroonWilliams wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

I am the last person to call mindless paragon. 

I, and my Shepard, know what I'm doing. If I can't make peace, I'm saving the Geth for a multitude of reasons.

Even if the Geth didn't already have a good case (in my opinion) backing them up, I would still throw the Quarians under the bus, unless I knew for certain that the Geth were still under Reaper control.

As I said, I believe the Geth are more useful for combating the Reapers. I would voluntarily and unhesitatingly damn millions of Quarians to death for the Geth.

Because I believe that if I didn't damn the Quarians, I'd be damning everybody else. 

I don't trust them. I don't trust their ships. I don't trust their technology from not failing being as decrepit as it is. I don't trust them to do what might need to be done to beat the Reapers.

That's hardly a paragon outlook don't you think?

I would certainly not catagorize you as a mindless ANYTHING player Massively.  One of my own Shepards played out Rannoch just like you described.  I was merely making a general exptrapolation from a global set of data that fits.  New games begun in ME3 CAN'T broker peace between the Geth and Quarians and a chronically Paragon player will choose to save the Geth over the Quarians because the choice to save the Geth is presented in the "Paragon" position, leading to a skewed set of data showing more people saving the Geth than would if they thought about it.

Remember, just by being here on the BSN you have shown yourself to be an exceptional player.

Fair enough.

I like to think my arguments here also make me more than a mindless drone. I know a few people who would disagree with that assertion, and really, all I can do is prove to other people how lousy they are at persuasive argument.

[Sir DeLoria]

Both Quarian and Geth war assets are dependant on your choices in ME2 and 3 during the Rannoch Arc. The Quarian war assets are potentially higher though. Also, as you know, assets are divided into hammer, shield and sword. Geth forces are mainly hammer and sword. Quarian forces are sword and shield(both fleet). So it's safe to assume, that the Quarian fleet is far stronger than the Geth fleet.

The Geth only have high assets due to their aditional ground forces.

As I said, they don't have to die. It's not like you have to choose between the Quarians and the galaxy. Quarians or Geth, both have similiar assets and neither are in any way relevant for the ending or the galaxy's fate. In theory, you could kill both of them plus the Krogan and Salarian fleet and still have enough EMS to get the best ending. So please stop talking about how neccessary the Quarian sacrifice is.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Necanor wrote...

Both Quarian and Geth war assets are dependant on your choices in ME2 and 3 during the Rannoch Arc. The Quarian war assets are potentially higher though. Also, as you know, assets are divided into hammer, shield and sword. Geth forces are mainly hammer and sword. Quarian forces are sword and shield(both fleet). So it's safe to assume, that the Quarian fleet is far stronger than the Geth fleet.

Trust me, I've played enough ME2 and ME3 to know how the game works. I've been arguing about it here, on the BSN, for over a year now.

Remember what I said about assumptions? 

And if the Quarian fleet is far stronger than the Geth, how come they started to get their ass kicked? How come they needed a special weapon to fight the Geth?

The Geth have a very strong fleet AND a very strong army. Your assertion is that they can only be one or the other.

And you're blatantly lying about what any of the forces are used for. We aren't told what assets constitute what fleet. We know Admiral Xen worked on the Crucible. We know the Geth did too. Otherwise, you have no evidence, and no argument, and no credibility to say anything about what assets went where.

Your assertion is that the Quarian fleet is far stronger than the Geth. 

This is shown to be completely untrue:

They might have more ships in their entire fleet than the Geth.

But...

Not every ship in the Quarian Flotilla is a warship.

An aside: The North Korean 'Navy' has more boats than the U.S. Navy. But the U.S. Navy has far more capability at sea, in littoral zones, in the air, and in every other conceivable statistic. The only thing the North Korean Navy is better at than the U.S. Navy is sinking. The quality and capability of the U.S. Navy far, far.... far... exceeds that of the North Korean 'Navy'.

Admiral Rahn says that there are less dedicated warships in the flotilla than the Turians. And the only 'dreadnoughts' that they are ever shown to have are their liveships. The Quarian Heavy fleet is made up of mostly cruisers and carriers. This is stated in the war assets. The liveships on the other hand are agricultural ships. They happen to have heavy weapons stashed onto them. 

A glass cannon. The game refers to them as such.

The vast majority of the ships in the flotilla (the civilian fleet) are ships of various design, age, and orign. Most of them are barely spaceworthy. This is mentioned repeatedly throughout the series. 

These are ships that aren't built for combat. They aren't going to be of much use in a fight, no matter what weapon you put on it.

Don't put a machine gun on a tug boat and call it a battleship.

Meanwhile, at the Geth Cave...

Every. Single. Geth ship has a military utility. Every single ship. The game mentions this. Everything the Geth have is capable of warfare. Advanced warfare, run by advanced AI's. 

And they have a lot of ships. Maybe not as many ships overall as the Quarians, but every ship the Geth have is built with a military purpose along with the original purpose of the ship.

And it is stated the Geth have nearly as many dreadnoughts as the Turians. Versus the Quarians, who don't have any real dreadnoughts, just really fragile (and vital) ships that have dreadnought grade weapons.

They can give a punch, but they really can't take one.

On to the Army. Like the Navy, every Geth platform and unit is designed with combat in mind. The entire Geth population is ready for battle at a moments notice.

Versus the likely very small force of Quarians. I have no doubt the Quarian Marines are very professional and capable. But we are given no clue to their numbers. Not every Quarian serves in the military. In fact, most don't.

Not every Quarian is Kal'Reegar.

Along with the benefits of having the synthetic forces over an organic force, the Geth don't have to worry about infection, or the dangers of the battlefield the same way the Quarians do. The Quarians would have a lot of problems on the ground. A lot more than your typical organic army.

I propose that while the Quarians may have a larger overall fleet than the Geth, the quality and quantity of the dedicated Geth warships far surpasses that of the Quarians.

I have no real proof for that assertion beyond what I've already mentioned above.

The larger Quarian fleet would be used to soak up fire from the Reapers (cannon fodder), while my real warships actually fought.

The Geth only have high assets due to their aditional ground forces.

... No. They don't. Their fleet alone is far larger than any single Quarian fleet. They also have one of the largest armies in the game.

As I said, they don't have to die. It's not like you have to choose between the Quarians and the galaxy. Quarians or Geth, both have similiar assets and neither are in any way relevant for the ending or the galaxy's fate. In theory, you could kill both of them plus the Krogan and Salarian fleet and still have enough EMS to get the best ending. So please stop talking about how neccessary the Quarian sacrifice is.

I'm sorry, I thought we were debating which would be the better choice if we couldn't make peace.

I obviously advocate peace. I get the advanced and useful Geth ships (plus the few Quarian warships), and I get a really big number of Quarian ships I can rig with explosives to launch at the Reapers as suicide ships and cannon fodder.

Modifié par MassivelyEffective0730, 23 juin 2013 - 01:28 .

[Dextro Milk]

*Gets out of work*

*Logs on BSN*

*Sees this still going*

I applaud you both for having the willpower to defend your views via the interwebs on teh BSN.

[Sir DeLoria]

Are you goddamn kidding me?! I'm not assuming anything, you're assuming here! I'm taking the direct EMS values out of the game.

Quarian Combined Fleets EMS: 600
Geth Fleet EMS: 300

Thus, the Quarian fleet is far more useful than the Geth fleet. The majority of Geth forces are ground troops.

If you don't believe me here:
http://masseffect.wi...War_Assets/Geth
http://masseffect.wi..._Assets/Quarian

I'm pretty sure EMS value is canon.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Dextro Milk wrote...

*Gets out of work*

*Logs on BSN*

*Sees this still going*

I applaud you both for having the willpower to defend your views via the interwebs on teh BSN.

I'm stubborn. It's a curse.

I don't have a problem with this guys views. They're his, and his alone.

I do have a problem with his arguments. He's shown to not even have the barest concept or comprehension of persuasion and reasoning. He's basing all of his arguments on fallacies, improper use of evidence, and subjective opinion.

I'm hoping that I can show this guy how to construct an argument and provide credible, reasonable, and coherent points backed up by evidence provided in the game. 

Modifié par MassivelyEffective0730, 23 juin 2013 - 01:38 .

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Necanor wrote...

Are you goddamn kidding me?! I'm not assuming anything, you're assuming here! I'm taking the direct EMS values out of the game.

Quarian Combined Fleets EMS: 600
Geth Fleet EMS: 300

Thus, the Quarian fleet is far more useful than the Geth fleet. The majority of Geth forces are ground troops.

If you don't believe me here:
http://masseffect.wi...War_Assets/Geth
http://masseffect.wi..._Assets/Quarian

I'm pretty sure EMS value is canon.

Combined... Combined.... Combined.... Combined.................................... Combined.....

I don't believe you. 

You already cited the proof for me. Thanks.

No single Quarian fleet is more powerful than the Geth fleet. The dedicated military fleet of the Quarians is weaker than the Geth Fleet. 

That was my statement.

You are wrong. You misrepresented my statement. You claimed I made an argument that I did not make. You are wrong.

Numbers =/= better. Remember what I said about the U.S. Navy and the North Korean Navy?

Going by your reasoning, wouldn't the North Korean Navy be the most powerful Navy on Earth? Or whichever Navy has the most boats?

You are improperly using evidence.

Modifié par MassivelyEffective0730, 23 juin 2013 - 01:40 .

[Dextro Milk]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Dextro Milk wrote...

*Gets out of work*

*Logs on BSN*

*Sees this still going*

I applaud you both for having the willpower to defend your views via the interwebs on teh BSN.

I'm stubborn. It's a curse.

I don't have a problem with this guys views. They're his, and his alone.

I do have a problem with his arguments. He's shown to not even have the barest concept or comprehension of persuasion and reasoning. He's basing almost everything on fallacies and subjective opinion.

I'm hoping that I can show this guy how to construct an argument and provide credible, reasonable, and coherent points backed up by evidence provided in the game. 

To  be honest, I don't even try to reason with people online anymore. It really is pointless in my opinion. No one here is going to change my beliefs, and I won't change theirs.

I don't mind that you guys talk about it, but there comes a point when "agree to disagree" is for the best. Of course, that is for both of you to decide, not me.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Dextro Milk wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Dextro Milk wrote...

*Gets out of work*

*Logs on BSN*

*Sees this still going*

I applaud you both for having the willpower to defend your views via the interwebs on teh BSN.

I'm stubborn. It's a curse.

I don't have a problem with this guys views. They're his, and his alone.

I do have a problem with his arguments. He's shown to not even have the barest concept or comprehension of persuasion and reasoning. He's basing almost everything on fallacies and subjective opinion.

I'm hoping that I can show this guy how to construct an argument and provide credible, reasonable, and coherent points backed up by evidence provided in the game. 

To  be honest, I don't even try to reason with people online anymore. It really is pointless in my opinion. No one here is going to change my beliefs, and I won't change theirs.

I don't mind that you guys talk about it, but there comes a point when "agree to disagree" is for the best. Of course, that is for both of you to decide, not me.

Eh, I'm a person who's naturally drawn to debate. I really can't help myself. I know it's stupid and pointless, but what can I do. 

I'm not trying to change any opinions though. I'm justifying my own, and providing logical criticism to another person's opinions. 

He has his opinion and I respect that, but he's doing a terrible, terrible, terrible job backing it up, and I don't respect that.

I'm weird that way.

[Sir DeLoria]

But the nature of the flotilla is, that it's divided into three(four with Xen's) subdivisions. 300 is the EMS value of the entire Geth fleet. 600 is the value of the entire Quarian fleet. By judging the fleets' military strenghts individualy, you're taking things out of context. The Quarian fleet might be divided into three assets, but they fight as a whole. Thus your statement is irrelevant.

Anyway, I'm off it's nearly 4 am and I have to go to the gym tomorrow morning.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Necanor wrote...

But the nature of the flotilla is, that it's divided into three(four with Xen's) subdivisions. 300 is the EMS value of the entire Geth fleet. 600 is the value of the entire Quarian fleet. By judging the fleets' military strenghts individualy, you're taking things out of context. The Quarian fleet might be divided into three assets, but they fight as a whole. Thus your statement is irrelevant.

Anyway, I'm off it's nearly 4 am and I have to go to the gym tomorrow morning.

No. There is no context that is separate for each fleet. Combined, they all have numerical advantages. 

Numerical advantage =/= military prowess.

There are 3 separate fleets. Only one is a dedicated military fleet. The civilians and the police are quite different from the military fleet. They aren't going to fight the same way, or as effectively.

They have separate strengths and utilities of their own however. I'm surprised you haven't actually made that argument.

They can be used as evacuation fleets, supply ships, fireship drones, suicide drones, cannon fodder, food ships, etc.

I'm literally giving you ammunition to use against my argument if you choose to use it.

Modifié par MassivelyEffective0730, 23 juin 2013 - 02:04 .

[dreamgazer]

CronoDragoon wrote...

Paintball.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

dreamgazer wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

Paintball.

No. 

They clearly play Ultimate and Laser tag.

[o Ventus]

Necanor wrote...

I'm pretty sure EMS value is canon.

Then I guess Jacob, by himself, is more valuable than a whole battalion of soldiers.