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Of Dreams and Nightmares - A Mage Manifesto


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#1
Ieldra

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"A civilization cannot be civil if it condones the slavery of another. And that is what this Circle is! But by accident of birth, those mages would be free to live, love, and die as they choose. The Circles will break—if it be one year, a decade, a century, or beyond. Tyrants always fall, and the downtrodden always strive for freedom!
     -- Aldenon, mage companion to Calenhad Theirin

“[…]the time has come for us to put aside our assumptions of the past – the assumption of others as well as our assumptions about ourselves. We know nothing of Tranquility, or of demons, or even our own limitations. Whatever comes next, we will only survive if we learn to look upon it with new eyes. If we don’t, we will simply make those old mistakes again… and whatever our fate, we will deserve it. […] I vote that we fight.”
      – Enchanter Rhys, at the Andoral’s Reach mage conclave, 9:40 Dragon.

[**This is an in-world account and political manifesto written from the perspective of my main Warden, Eorlin Amell, at the moment residing at an unknown location, possibly in or near Orlais. I posted it here since there is no campaign or fan creations forum for DAI yet, I intend it to be a base for discussion and it is more relevant to the known events leading up to DAI rather than to events of earlier games only**] [**Thanks to Xilizhra for proofreading**]

Of Dreams and Nightmares – A Mage Manifesto

It is the 40th year of the Dragon Age. The Circles, which have circumscribed the life of most mages in the lands where the Chantry holds sway, are no more. Mages are seeking new ways of thinking and new ways of living, while the templars are trying to stop them. Yet, what on the surface appears to be a political conflict goes deeper than that; the result of it will determine more than the fate of mages and magic. It will determine how every one of us, mage and non-mage alike, relates to the Fade. The Fade is the home of our dreams, the mysterious aspect of our world which gives them shape. Some of those dreams have always been nightmares, which is why there is now the Veil. We mages are standing in the gateway between worlds, the heirs of the ancient Dreamers. It is not for us to cower in fear before the dream world as the templars would have us do, but to wander and explore it, with all the necessary care, but also with confidence born of knowledge and experience. For a thousand years, the Chantry’s teachings have shrouded such knowledge in religious metaphor, shaping reality for everyone else. It is now time to tear the shroud, to question established wisdom and find new answers to old questions.
 
My name is Eorlin Amell. I was a mage of the Circle and a Grey Warden. I have been called the savior of a nation and been reviled as an apostate. I have loved a templar and an apostate, I have seen a Circle almost destroyed by the ambitions of one mage, I have seen benevolent Fade spirits, templars possessed by demons and a blood mage giving freely of himself to help others. I have fought alongside templars against demon-possessed mages and helped mages escape their Circles. I have killed an archdemon and survived, and engaged a darkspawn in reasonable debate. I am a mage, but I know the best and the worst of both sides, and I know things I never thought possible when I set out from the Circle I grew up in.

And as I made my way in the world, unfettered by the invisible chains still binding my fellow mages, I found that what I always suspected about the principal fact of a Circle mage’s life was, in fact, true: we have been slaves. Pampered slaves, maybe, and perhaps for some it is an existence preferable to the risks of freedom, but slaves nonetheless. For what do you call it if you are kept in one place by people who have the power of life and death over you, to be invoked if you rise up against the strictures imposed on you? What do you call it if every moment of your life is watched and controlled, you are forced into celibacy, with no contact with your families, and must witness friendships outside the Circle fade as time passes, and you are only let out occasionally to do some service for your keepers and their idea of what is the public good? That some templars use that power responsibly does not change the fact that they have it by law, and thus does not change the fact that Circle mages were slaves, and the fact that apostate mages have more power to resist their would-be captors does not change that by law, they are nothing more than escaped slaves, who would be tracked down by specialized slave hunters if they revealed themselves.
 
To make things worse, our keepers justified this through a doctrine which blames our kind for the world’s greatest evils. As if it wasn’t enough that we were kept at all – no, we were kept by those who are predisposed to revile us. Much has been said of the temptation mages face from demons. More needs to be said about how much temptation there is in the Chantry’s teachings, the temptation for templars to treat their charges as lesser beings. How many mages have been made Tranquil because in the eyes of their keepers they deserved less consideration, their plight less examination, less benefit of the doubt than non-mages?

Circle mages lived in material comfort, but that comfort came at the price of a slow smothering of the spirit. Maybe less in some circles than in others, but that means nothing more than that in some Circles, the slaves were more pampered than in others. But in the end, they were still slaves.

Justifications abound for this state of things, supported by the traditions of nine Ages. The most hypocritical may be the statement that the Circle exists for the protection of mages. Persecution is an unfortunate fact in many places, and there are several common ways to deal with it. Locking the prospective victims away does not appear to be one of those. One wonders why; perhaps it is because the fundamental injustice of such a policy is recognized? Yet, that is exactly what the Circles do. Led by the Chantry’s doctrine which reinforces the idea that suspicion against mages is deserved, the templars help create the conditions they say they protect mages from. They foster suspicion, and suspicion breeds persecution. Persecution, in turn, justifies the templars’ existence and their claim of “protection”. This is not so different from a protection racket.

Mages are too dangerous to stay free, say others. So why not forbid all weapons and lock everyone away capable of killing another with their bare hands. Why not turn our cities into prisons? The difference is only one of degree. As it is, a mage proficient in the primal school is not so different from a non-mage carrying a barrel of gaatlok around. In both cases, if they’re competent in handling the power in their hands their environment is reasonably safe unless they want to cause havoc – and that’s a freedom every one of us has at least once, except mages in Circles. Nobody is ever punished for things they might do, except mages in Circles. That has to end. Mages must learn to control their power, and those who cannot learn must be kept from causing unintentional damage. The others – the great majority – should be free to make their way in the world. We do not lock away those who “have the power to run innocents through with a sword.” We do not lock away those who “have the potential to kill in an insane rage.” We act only once such things actually happen. Then, the people responsible – and only those – are duly punished. Mages should be treated no differently, and those who hunt mages should restrict their hunting to those who have done something to merit punishment. It should go without saying that fleeing from slavery does not merit punishment.

What inspires the most fear, however, is the danger of demonic possession. History has made it abundantly clear that this fear is not entirely misplaced. Entire Circles have nearly been destroyed by madmen who let themselves be possessed. The templars have used Tranquility to contain this. Yet, the Fade is the home of our dreams. Without it, every one of us, mage and non-mage alike, is less alive. The lesson in that is this: we cannot have safety without the withering of our souls. Yet, that is what Tranquility does. That is the templars’ solution, applied to anyone they deem too dangerous. The withering of the soul, forced not just on those proven to be a danger to everyone, but on the innocent, based on judgments we were not allowed to question. Much has been said about the temptations mages face from demons. More needs to be said about the temptation to force a mage into Tranquility because it is convenient.

The question is hanging in the air: what are we to do about this? In my travels, I have met a number of mages who were never part of a Circle. Of all of them, there was only one case I heard of – in fact, one I participated in – of a mage possessed by a demon, and that was a child who didn’t know any better and sought a spirit from the Fade to help his father – a disaster born from ignorance I lay at the feet of the Circles, for were the Circles more like schools and less like prisons, or were mages allowed to teach anywhere, the child’s mother would’ve sent him to be educated, and the disaster would have been avoided. Or…perhaps it would not have been avoided, for it appears that the Circles do not prevent demonic possession so much as foster it, since every other case of possession I have witnessed or heard of has happened to Circle mages or those only recently escaped. Why would that be? Maybe it is simple and the Circle mages who attempt to escape feel that they have nothing to lose, and if they are to die, why not do everything to take as many of their oppressors’ lives with them? If so, then the blame for most cases of possession can be laid at the Circle’s feet. I suspect, though, there is a deeper cause. The teachings of the Chantry do not inspire confidence. Yet confidence, knowledge of our limits and mental strength are of primary importance when dealing with Fade spirits. Know thyself, may be the most important principle of a mage’s education. The Chantry rather teaches us to fear ourselves instead. Know the spirit world, may be the second most important principle, and knowledge of that is severely lacking. Instead, all the “knowledge” mages were taught is shrouded in religious metaphor, a sure way to obfuscate the true nature of things with a layer of prejudice. Perhaps it is no wonder that apostates are less prone to being possessed, with their knowledge shaped by experience rather than dogma. Perhaps it is no wonder that those who are treated as potential monsters in the Circles are more likely to become monsters in the end.

Whatever solution there may be to the dangers posed by our interactions with the spirit world, the Circles are not it. Instead, we need to explore unhindered by religious prejudice what kinds of Fade spirits exist, what kinds of interaction with them are possible, which kinds may be to our benefit, and which are too dangerous to even remotely consider contacting. We will never be able to prevent the determined madman from invoking a malevolent spirit, in or out of a Circle – not without using blood magic to read everyone’s mind. What we can do is protect ourselves and others from the dangers posed by ignorant interaction with spirits, and prevent our children, our apprentices and ourselves from losing their selves to a spirit, accidentally or otherwise. For that, education and research are needed, not imprisonment. The Litany of Adralla proves that protection against mental domination exists, whether by Fade spirit or by blood magic. If the fear of possession and domination by blood magic is so great, why has the Litany not been taught to everyone? Why was there never any attempt to overcome its limitations, and make something of it that can cast out a controlling mind? One answer is that to do that, we would need to study blood magic, and in the Circles that is the short road to Tranquility. However, another, more sinister answer suggests itself.

It is now almost a thousand years since the creation of the Circles. The nature of a Circle mage’s existence – their existence as slaves – did not change in all that time. Research into different solutions to the problem of possession has been suppressed by the templars. Research into the nature of spirits has been suppressed. Research into the nature of the Fade has been suppressed. Research into the nature of Tranquility has been suppressed. Why? Was it mere complacency? Or has the templar order moved beyond its stated purpose of protecting mages and non-mages alike from the dangers posed by uncontrolled magic? Have their leaders, perhaps, decided that if they cannot hold such powers themselves, then they need to maintain absolute control over those who hold them? Is honest concern their motivation, or does envy breed the desire to control? Tranquility, forced celibacy, mages killed when they try to escape, the unwillingness to find alternate solutions. This is more than complacency. It is a creeping genocide lasting a thousand years.

We are standing at a crossroads. The Circles are no more. We are now asking all the old questions anew. How can we relate to the Fade and its denizens? What must we fight at all costs, what can we accommodate? What can be done with those who cannot learn to control their power? I do not know the answers, but I do know this: we will no longer be controlled by those predisposed to revile us. Never again will we be slaves, and we will no longer be complicit in the mutilation of our souls. The Chantry calls us apostates. I now proudly adopt that term for myself, for towards any doctrine that reviles our kind and blames us for the world’s greatest evils, there is no more appropriate state than being an apostate.

We should, however, not be reckless. There is more at stake than the power of mages and their status. The Fade is the home of our dreams – and of our nightmares. It is a part of all of us, not just those who work magic. Everyone’s desires, everyone’s fears give it all shape. It tells us of what we are if we open our eyes. It is said that in the ancient days, there was no Veil. Imagine that we could not escape. Imagine that we would see our dreams and nightmares walk the lands, revealing mysteries of our world in all their awful glory. Not all minds can experience this and not be damaged, and that is why the ancient Dreamers existed. They were the guardians. How would we react today? Most templars would have us cast out our dreams to get rid of the nightmares. Is that what we want?

The Veil is weakening. Soon the things we have conveniently forgotten about our world will come back to haunt us. Dare we take up the sword of knowledge and fight the nightmares to preserve our dreams? Dare we take up the mantle of the Dreamers and act as guardians of the gates between the worlds? There can be no compromise with those who seek to enslave us. It is our birthright to make our way in two worlds as we see fit. We do not need to prove ourselves to anyone, and we will not be bound into service. We can, however, choose to be guardians rather than the oppressors our enemies would have us be. There is no greater moment of freedom than this one, when we have thrown off our shackles but our path into the future is not yet determined.

A great change is coming. It is for us to determine if it will set us free.

===================================================================================

[Letter from Eorlin Amell to an unknown recipient, 9:40 Dragon. This was written in response to questions I was asked in a PM about the situation of the mages. I also believe something similar to what Eorlin suggests in the letter is going to happen in DAI if your character is a mage and has an appropriate background. Lastly. some of the events mentioned here may not have happened in all players' timelines. "Stoneshadow" is the name I gave to the Circle established at Orzammer in response to Dagna's sojourn at the Circle of Ferelden.]

My dear friend,

you’ve asked me for advice about our strategic options after the conclave at Andoral’s Reach. I do not know why you think I have better advice to offer than the First Enchanters at the meeting, but yes. I have some ideas about how to proceed.

It may sound odd, but I think we should offer our support to the Divine. Yes, you didn’t misread. The Divine has proven that she thinks our cause has merit, and even if she would’ve preferred less radical actions, she helped the mages of the White Spire escape and without her intervention, they might all be dead by now. That her Chantry is falling to pieces just as she’s prepared to take a less oppressive stance on mages is most unfortunate, and she’s lost most of her military power with the secession of Lambert and most of the Seekers and Templars. If we offer her our support – as allies, not subordinates – we show that we appreciate her actions; that we aren’t opposed to serving the greater good if our autonomy is recognized, and we mitigate concerns of the non-mage population (please avoid calling them "mundane") about what we might do to them since most of them trust the Chantry.

So much for the political side of the picture, but there are other concerns. The Chantry controls the lyrium trade, and we’ll need lyrium not only to fight the occasional battle, but also for our research. If we support the Divine, we’ll have the lyrium we need, we might be able to cut Lambert’s faction off from their supply and long-term, we might be able to get our hands into the lyrium trade ourselves. Should that be successful and we can avoid open battle for some more time, his faction will be much weakened. To avoid being too dependent on one source, we should look to Orzammar. I understand that the representative of the Stoneshadow Circle couldn’t make it to your meeting, but I know her and can put you in touch. Her mages have won great acclaim when they helped House Helmi against the darkspawn in the reclaiming of Kal’hirol. There is a spirit of renewal in Orzammar as the dwarves attempt to reclaim some of their ancient glory. It is something to behold. You do not want to stand in their way. I imagine your meeting was infused with a similar spirit.

Also – it may be galling to admit that, but that doesn’t make it less true – we’re going to need people with Templar training. We’re going to embark on some potentially dangerous research, and it’s in our own interest to have someone nearby who can interrupt our magic if something goes wrong – as long as it’s understood that “disrupt our magic” doesn’t mean “kill” if at all possible. There will be fitting candidates among those templars who remained with the Divine. We have a templar/mage couple among our leaders at Andoral’s reach. They can serve as an example.

I’m afraid this might not go down well with some of the radicals. While I count myself as one regarding our goals, I see no reason to hold on to old grudges if they only hold us back. Remind them our goal is autonomy, not isolation, and if we don’t acknowledge that our power comes with the obligation to use it responsibility we will not be successful.

Also, I cannot overstate how important it is to keep the state of things from deteriorating further. Something big is happening in the Fade. I wonder why you haven’t noticed it by now. I’m afraid we’re all going to feel its effects before long. Whatever it is, we’ll be at the forefront of events because we’re more at home in the Fade than anyone else. It scares me, and I don’t scare easily, but maybe if we save everyone’s asses, they’ll sing a different tune about mages.  

That was it. I also have some ideas about the mages’ place in a more enlightened culture in the long-term, but much of that depends on the results of our research and the actions we’re going to take in the coming conflict, so I’ll refrain from indulging in pointless speculation for now.

If I may mention a concern of my own: have you heard anything about my cousin, the infamous Hawke? Last I heard, she left Kirkwall in a captured ship together with a handful of companions. She probably doesn’t know about me but I’d like to make contact with her.
I hope everything goes well with you and that we’ll all meet again alive instead of being cut up by templars or being eaten by dragons.

Until then,

Yours,

Eorlin Amell

Modifié par Ieldra2, 28 juin 2013 - 10:31 .

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#2
MisterJB

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Well, let's get to work, shall we?

1-Mages are not slaves.
The most widely accepted defining characteristic of slavery is the process of dehumanizing the slave into an object. An object has no rights or freedoms; it's owner can do to the object what s/he wishes. They're, basically, proprierty.
Mages are not proprierty of the Chantry or Templars. They have rigths protecting them such as the right to physical integrity; mages can't be beaten or raped by Templars; and they have freedoms that must be respected such as the freedom of association; mages can join any fraternity they choose. This doesn't always translate as it should but corruption exists in the legal and police systems of democratic countries and they're not hallmarks of slavery.
They also can't be forced to perform labor. The Chantry or others can request help from a Circle; such as the Warden asking Irving to commit to fight against the Blight or to help deal with Connor; but the mages render the assistance only if they wish to do so. The profits of the sale of any objects produced by the Tanquils goes to the Circle, not the Chantry.
Hence, mages are not slaves. In fact, mages live privileged lives when compared to the common peasantry of Thedas. Clothes, food, a roof over their heads, an education.

Their freedoms are certainly more restricted than those of the common man. However, it is false to claim that no one is "punished" for something they might do.
The laws restricting the freedoms of everyday citizens exist because these citizens have the potential to be dangerous, not because they have proven to be dangerous. And we accept this as we should because without laws and order, there could be no society.
The harsher restrictions placed upon mages are meant only to reflect the greater dangers they represent to everyone around them which bring us to the second point.

2- A sword and bow are not the same as magic. I believe this is self-explanatory, yes. If an adult madman grabs a sword and starts attacking people in a fit of rage, the guardsman will quickly put an end to him.
A mage child, on the other hand, has brought down an entire town without even meaning to.
Swords are not the same as magic and it is disingenuous to keep claiming they are on the same level.

3-Magical research has not been repressed by the Circle and also not by religious dogma. Perhaps it has not been conducted to the extent some irresponsible mages like Whilelm would have it be conducted but if you were to check the codex entries on the various types of demons, you would see scientific study into their nature and behavior as been conducted both by Circle mages and templars.
Rhys is another one who was able to study Fade Spirits while in the Circle.

4- The Rite of Tranquily must be approved by the First Enchanter. Meaning that while a common mage may not be allowed to make pleas, they do have legal representatives.

5-The idea that the Circle actually encourages demonic possession.
To a certain extent, perhaps. It is true that desperation can lead to the abuses of magic but it's also true that templars are not the only source of desperation in the world nor is "freedom" the only temptation.
Should the non-magical people of Thedas rely upon mages living an untroubled life so they'll be safe? Of course not.
Whatever encouragment the Circle system gives is balanced by the fact that should someone consort with demons or study blood magic, there are trained warriors ready to deal with the problem right down the hallway.
The reason that apostates conceal themselves rather than just using their magic for their benefit is because of the certainty that if templars hear about it, they will come.

The non-mages of Thedas don't need or want mage "guardians". What they need is self-reliance.
The Ancient dreamers were not guardians, they were opressors. They were the ones who extablished the Tevinter Imperium and even now, as evidenced by Magister Titus, no one can be trusted with that kind of power.

6-Cultures do not spawn from nothing. The reason the Andrastian Chantry preaches of the dangers of magic it's because Southern Thedas was settled by people whose ancestors spent a thousand years being opressed by magic-users.
The matter of fact is, there are very good reasons to fear magic and even cultures which emmigrated from different continents acknowledge this. If anything, the Chantry has prevented all out war between mages and mundanes which is where this rebellion is heading to.

Modifié par MisterJB, 22 juin 2013 - 02:27 .


#3
frostajulie

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Ieldra2 I love your definition of Slavery it fits perfectly. Mister JB I sppreciate your defense of the current order and how well you think you have thought it out but your argument falls apart when you say mages are not slaves. I would suggest you replay the games and listen to the side characters this time. They are constantly dehumanized into objects of potential destruction by both chantry and templars I will come back to edit this post later Im off to see man of Steel. Ialdra2 your manifesto is brilliant and beautiful.

#4
Ieldra

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A few points @MisterJB:
Maybe the Chantry had good reasons to fear mages, but oppressing mages does not appear conducive to long-term co-existence, and so it has proven.

Also about laws: they exist because people can be dangerous, yes, but little actual restriction is placed on people unless they do something harmful. Other restrictions exist to facilitate expected behavior in order to avoid accidents. A mage equivalent would be "mages are forbidden to create fireballs in public places unless in circumstances A, B C". You can debate such things, but they have their place. However, that is not equivalent to "mages are forbidden to go out without being accompanied by a templar because they might create fireballs in public places."

You do not appear to be interested in improving the means to prevent mental domination by blood magic or possesion. Tranquility is an atrocity, there's no way to mask that fact. 

Lambert attempts to suppress research into Tranquility in "Asunder". I have extrapolated if they do this now, it's very likely they've also done it in the past.

As for the more speculative parts of the manifesto, I believe that DAI will shed some light on all that. Maybe I'll be proven wrong, and that's ok - I think the character from whose perspective this was written is able to learn - but I don't think so. There are quite a few hints in the source material.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 22 juin 2013 - 02:52 .


#5
Tarek

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interesting forgot about that

#6
MisterJB

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Ieldra2 wrote...

A few points @MisterJB:
Maybe the Chantry had good reasons to fear mages, but oppressing mages does not appear conducive to long-term co-existence, and so it has proven.

This assumes that long-term co-existence is possible which is highly debatable.
All of Thedosian history has either mages dominating non-mages or vice-versa. I see no evidence of equality between people capable of conjuring harmful and useful things from thin-air and those who are not being possible.

Also about laws: they exist because people can be dangerous, yes, but little actual restriction is placed on people unless they do something harmful. Other restrictions exist to facilitate expected behavior in order to avoid accidents. A mage equivalent would be "mages are forbidden to create fireballs in public places unless in circumstances A, B C". You can debate such things, but they have their place. However, that is not equivalent to "mages are forbidden to go out without being accompanied by a templar because they might create fireballs in public places."

Actual restrictions will be placed if the danger posed by the people is unsustainable such as in the case of epidemics and they will also be taken to keep truly harmful instruments of destruction off the hands of people. Again, because they might be dangerous.
Would you argue that a 9mm is the same as a nuclear weapon and should be treated in the same fashion? I don't believe a simple sign saying "Please, don't take the nuclear weapons" would be enough of a security measure.

You do not appear to be interested in improving the means to prevent mental domination by blood magic or possesion.

Not sure when I've given that impression.

Tranquility is an atrocity, there's no way to mask that fact.

Owen has some very convincing arguments in defence of Tranquility. And even if we accept it is an "atrocity", sometimes those are necessary to protect the greater good. The death penalty exists in Thedas at large. 

Lambert attempts to suppress research into Tranquility in "Asunder". I have extrapolated if they do this now, it's very likely they've also done it in the past.

Lambert did not attempt to supress research. He attempted to supress the result of said research after analysing them and due in no small amount to the current political climate which is also something researchers should take into account.
He said to Evangeline he was willing to look further into it at a different time under a controled environment.

And, as I said before, the codex entries on the various demons; particularly the Lust and Sloth ones; indicate a scientific research by both mages and templars into the nature and behavior of such creatures. And in Asunder itself, Rhys mentioned experimenting with Fade Spirits with the approval of the KC even if we wish to discount the Divine herself approving of research into the nature of the Rite

As for the more speculative parts of the manifesto, I believe that DAI will shed some light on all that. Maybe I'll be proven wrong, and that's ok - I think the character from whose perspective this was written is able to learn - but I don't think so. There are quite a few hints in the source material.

Such as? I recall mentions of a time before the Veil but also in the very same comic book where a mage attempted to harness the power of the Dreamers to enslave the very souls of every non-mage in Thedas.

#7
IceHawk-181

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I somehow do not equate putting a Serial Killer or Rapist to death with forcibly ripping someone's soul and emotions from them due to a possibility.

A more apt comparison would be to claim it is morally acceptable to force Men to become Eunuchs because there is a possibility they might commit rape...

#8
Guest_Puddi III_*

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No Ieldra, what you're supposed to do is say only mage supporters are allowed to post in this thread and complain anytime someone dare post a contrary opinion.

Modifié par Filament, 22 juin 2013 - 03:41 .


#9
MisterJB

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frostajulie wrote...

Ieldra2 I love your definition of Slavery it fits perfectly. Mister JB I sppreciate your defense of the current order and how well you think you have thought it out but your argument falls apart when you say mages are not slaves. I would suggest you replay the games and listen to the side characters this time. They are constantly dehumanized into objects of potential destruction by both chantry and templars I will come back to edit this post later Im off to see man of Steel. Ialdra2 your manifesto is brilliant and beautiful.

Saying mages are dangerous it's not dehumanization. The simple observable facts that the Circle system provides mages with rights, freedoms and privileges means that the Chantry acknowledges they are human beings, just unnaceptably dangerous ones.
Sure, some templars might not think of mages as people but that's prejudice. And while it is not commendable, it has no bearing on the system itself so long as the system does not take up that viewpoint which it doesn't.

#10
IceHawk-181

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Free Society is based on the principle that Rights are inherent in Humanity.

The mere fact that you just claimed Mages derive their rights from institutional allowances from the Chantry actually demonstrates they are, in fact, not free.

#11
MisterJB

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Filament wrote...

No Ieldra, what you're supposed to do is say only mage supporters are allowed to post in this thread and complain anytime someone dare post a contrary opinion.

Manifestos are, by its very nature, open to scrutiny and debate by those who don't agree with them.
Support threads, on the other hand, are specifically meant for people who share a common viewpoint. The fact that Bioware moderators have, for years, banned haters who came into a character support thread despite this being a discussion forum proves this.

#12
jtav

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What are we to with a man like Jowan, though? He's not an evil man, but he does seem precisely the sort the Rite was designed for?

I'd propose this. Turn the Circle into a boarding school. A mage stays there until he passes his Harrowing. His phylactery is kept. He is allowed to move to any city he pleases, but must meet regularly with an assigned templar (Lothering has templars; I imagine most decent-sized towns do). He cannot move without the permission of the ranking templar. Bribery, etc. gets you sent back to the Circle.

#13
MisterJB

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IceHawk-181 wrote...

Free Society is based on the principle that Rights are inherent in Humanity.

The mere fact that you just claimed Mages derive their rights from institutional allowances from the Chantry actually demonstrates they are, in fact, not free.

Do peasants not derive rights from their lords? Can kings and emperors not decree the death of a citizen despite the (modern) belief of the inherent right to life? Is the protection of the peasantry not dependant upon how much the guardsman are willing to risk for them?
Then the freedoms of mages are not so different from those of the "free men" of Thedas.

#14
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I was referring to the "Templar Perspective" thread, not the support thread. For that matter, "supporting" a faction and the arguments it uses is very much different than those character fanboy/girl threads (though plenty in that thread tried their best to perform the mindless gushing schtick for the templar organization too, I admit) so your logic is silly.

#15
IceHawk-181

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I would take it out of the hands of the Chantry and the Templars; Jowan is a great example.

He abandoned blood magic, hell, he wants to abandon all magic and just love Lilly and have a life with her.

He doesn't resort to Blood Magic when I am getting the crap kicked out of me by the guards in the Repository.

He only pulls it out when it is the difference between life and death...for Lilly.

What would his life have been like if Irving had stalled Greigor and both he and Lilly made their way to some small farm-hold where they created a family?

#16
MisterJB

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IceHawk-181 wrote...

I would take it out of the hands of the Chantry and the Templars; Jowan is a great example.

He abandoned blood magic, hell, he wants to abandon all magic and just love Lilly and have a life with her.

He doesn't resort to Blood Magic when I am getting the crap kicked out of me by the guards in the Repository.

He only pulls it out when it is the difference between life and death...for Lilly.

What would his life have been like if Irving had stalled Greigor and both he and Lilly made their way to some small farm-hold where they created a family?

A plague would hit the village. Their son would get sick. Jowan would use the blood of every other child in the village to heal his own.

Templars are not the only source of suffering in the world. Life in Thedas is hard. How many temptations would Jowan suffer daily that could lead him to use his powers in a way harmful to others.

#17
IceHawk-181

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False Equivalency; there is a fundamental difference in the relationship that exists within a Manorial Feudal System (which no, is not a free society) between Lords and Peasants and the one that exists in the Circles.

We know of very little about Legal precedent in Fereldan, however it is considered relatively more free than other empires, such as Orlias.

The Circle of Magi is a Prison.
Mages are forcibly installed into a Circle, they cannot leave it freely, cannot question the dictums of the Templar Commander, have no recourse or due process against forcible Tranquility, and are not even allowed to have contact with their families.

We lack an in-depth understanding of Fereldan politics and law to comment accurately, however the Mages are essentially slaves.

Antebellum Southern Slaves in the Chesapeake and Carolinas had more freedom that Mages do in the circle for godsakes...

#18
MisterJB

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Filament wrote...

I was referring to the "Templar Perspective" thread, not the support thread. For that matter, "supporting" a faction and the arguments it uses is very much different than those character fanboy/girl threads (though plenty in that thread tried their best to perform the mindless gushing schtick for the templar organization too, I admit) so your logic is silly.


The complaints posted in the "Templar Perspective" thread were not due to the simple presence of pro-mages but due to deliberate attempts by certain forumites to derail the thread.

And every legitimate organization has an hardquarters where they can call the police if a member of the opposition has showed up and is making a nuisance of himself. Which doesn't mean these organizations are opposed to debate over their beliefs, only that there are proper places for it.

#19
IceHawk-181

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MisterJB wrote...

IceHawk-181 wrote...

I would take it out of the hands of the Chantry and the Templars; Jowan is a great example.

He abandoned blood magic, hell, he wants to abandon all magic and just love Lilly and have a life with her.

He doesn't resort to Blood Magic when I am getting the crap kicked out of me by the guards in the Repository.

He only pulls it out when it is the difference between life and death...for Lilly.

What would his life have been like if Irving had stalled Greigor and both he and Lilly made their way to some small farm-hold where they created a family?

A plague would hit the village. Their son would get sick. Jowan would use the blood of every other child in the village to heal his own.

Templars are not the only source of suffering in the world. Life in Thedas is hard. How many temptations would Jowan suffer daily that could lead him to use his powers in a way harmful to others.


An interesting take on Jowan's character and one I would question.
 
When Lilly was threatened Jowan did not enthrall the PC or any of the Templars, did not use the PC as a source for the magic, and did not kill a single Templar.
 
He knocked them out so they can escape.
 
That does not sound like an individual who would slaughter innocent children...
 
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#20
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MisterJB wrote...

The complaints posted in the "Templar Perspective" thread were not due to the simple presence of pro-mages but due to deliberate attempts by certain forumites to derail the thread.

Where "derailing the thread" is code for any critical assessment of the perspective so asserted.

And every legitimate organization has an hardquarters where they can call the police if a member of the opposition has showed up and is making a nuisance of himself. Which doesn't mean these organizations are opposed to debate over their beliefs, only that there are proper places for it.

Yes, the proper place being only in pro-mage threads, evidently.

#21
Huyna

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Rights of the minority are important, but they cannot and should not overrule the rights of majority. Majority  builds towns, majority  works at farms, and majority supports civilization.  

Needs of many outweigh needs of few.

Mages are dangerous. It’s not their fault, they were born that way, but it changes nothing. And not only because they are a constant beacon for demons, but because their power can lead to arrogance, to a firm belief in their own superiority.  In a blink of an eye a magocratic society may appear, with mages as a ruling class. An “oppressed” now will become rulers and harsh their rule will be.

One may say – “It will only may happen because mages are not truly free. We are not banning swords because swords can be used as a weapon! Mages are not tools, but intelligent beings with rights, hopes and dreams”.  It’s all true. However, until a proper “cure” will be developed that will provide a full-proof guarantee against demonic possession; mages must be kept in check.  We have to remember – Fade is full of many creatures, and many of them hate humans. They feel bitter and jealous, for humans are Maker’s favorite, though they were Makers first. And some of these creatures are old. Old, very old. And highly intelligent and patient.  Forget rage demons – even if they can they can wipe out a village. Forget passion demons – even if their games can turn hundreds insane. Fear, among other things, a pride demon of the higher order, which will take mage of a great power, and almost impossible to detect. Such creature will wait; such creature will be extremely careful and will play the mage as a puppet until time to strike is right. And then entire kingdoms will bleed. A grey cardinal beyond the thrones. What great grief can be unleashed then?

A one can ask – “It’s easy for you to say! What if you child or loved one turned out to be a mage!”

True. But what would you say, if your child or a loved one is a slave to cold immortal creature, that will use it as tool for great pain and suffering.

Circles are needed. Templars are needed. Or world, as we know it, will turn into ash.

Modifié par Huyna, 22 juin 2013 - 04:09 .


#22
MisterJB

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IceHawk-181 wrote...
An interesting take on Jowan's character and one I would question.
 
When Lilly was threatened Jowan did not enthrall the PC or any of the Templars, did not use the PC as a source for the magic, and did not kill a single Templar.
 
He knocked them out so they can escape.
 
That does not sound like an individual who would slaughter innocent children...
 


Anders, who argues in favor of saving Amaranthine in DAA, decided having templars and mages killing each other in the streets of Kirkwall would be grand. People would do horrible things given the proper stimuli.

I don't claim that Jowan is the type of man capable of killing innocent children for fun; that's more Danarius; but if he had to save his own child? There is a very good chance he will do it.
And that is a great problem regarding mage freedom. Life is hard, life is dangerous. When the happenstances put a mage against the corner, how many innocents will be hurt?

Modifié par MisterJB, 22 juin 2013 - 04:09 .


#23
BlueMagitek

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IceHawk-181 wrote...

I would take it out of the hands of the Chantry and the Templars; Jowan is a great example.

He abandoned blood magic, hell, he wants to abandon all magic and just love Lilly and have a life with her.

He doesn't resort to Blood Magic when I am getting the crap kicked out of me by the guards in the Repository.

He only pulls it out when it is the difference between life and death...for Lilly.

What would his life have been like if Irving had stalled Greigor and both he and Lilly made their way to some small farm-hold where they created a family?


On the flip side:

Jowan went to blood magic due to jealousy of the Mage PC (S or A).

He does not inform Lily of his knowledge of blood magic.

He tries to draw someone he is jealous of who just passed his Harrowing into a plan that would get him into loads of trouble even if it suceeded.

What would his life been like if he hadn't learned blood magic at all?

#24
MisterJB

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Filament wrote...
Where "derailing the thread" is code for any critical assessment of the perspective so asserted.

I was thinking more of equaling all templars with Alrik; which is decidedly untrue; and just have them receive the Cerberus treatment.

Yes, the proper place being only in pro-mage threads, evidently.

As I said before, a manifesto is open to scrutiny. I can't speak for all pro-templars but I don't particularly remember posting in the mage support thread or that one asking for Anders to return.

#25
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IceHawk-181 wrote...

False Equivalency; there is a fundamental difference in the relationship that exists within a Manorial Feudal System (which no, is not a free society) between Lords and Peasants and the one that exists in the Circles.

We know of very little about Legal precedent in Fereldan, however it is considered relatively more free than other empires, such as Orlias.

The Circle of Magi is a Prison.
Mages are forcibly installed into a Circle, they cannot leave it freely, cannot question the dictums of the Templar Commander, have no recourse or due process against forcible Tranquility, and are not even allowed to have contact with their families.

Forgetting for a moment your description of the Circle is not necessarely true; the greater degrees of freedom of non-mages are not relevant pertaining the relationships "mage-templar" and "peasant-lord".
You say that templars have dominion over mages and that is true; to a certain extent only; but the kings and emperors of Dragon Age detain the same power over their populations. If a noble decides to have a rape fest to celebrate his anniversary, the degrees to which the commoners will be protected are as much reliant on the guardsman; who might be afraid of crossing a noble; as the rights of mages are reliant on the templars respecting them.
Just because non-mages have a greater range of land they can move in doesn't affect that. At least the mages can fire fireballs if need be.

We lack an in-depth understanding of Fereldan politics and law to comment accurately, however the Mages are essentially slaves.

No, they aren't. I've already explained why in my first post so, please allow me to direct you to it.