1656 réponses à ce sujet

[Ieldra]

Medhia Nox wrote...
A village guard can kill an unruly peasant (and is always watching for unruly peasants to kill)

Being "unruly" justifies killing now? Or did you just invent that for justifying the killing of "unruly" mages by templars?

That clinic was a cover for his terrorist cell.  You can argue against it all you want - but the Fereldens kept him safe to build his bomb and free rebel mages... so he kept healing them.

Not before act 3, no it wasn't. Anders was even prepared to compromise after he discovered that the Divine rejected Ser Alrik's plans. Then came the crackdown by the templars.

And one man's terrorist is another's freedom fighter. Not that I condone his actions, but labeling him thusly is one-sided. There are legitimate issues which haven't been addressed for a thousand years.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 24 juin 2013 - 01:51 .

[LobselVith8]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Ieldra2: I'll be working to make that culture of responsible mages (assuming this is a topic of DA: I).

But first - I have to bring down a rebellion of irresponsible ones.

Glad I have your support in my playthrough.

It isn't irresponsible to refuse to bend knee to the templars or the Chantry.

Medhia Nox wrote...

Mages have never shown to be pro-actively "good" in Dragon Age. Mages haven't been shown to do anything but abuse power if left to their own devices.

I'll be glad to be the first to work toward a better future for everyone - not just mages.

Mages participated in the Blights, fighting the darkspawn to protect civilization from the greatest threat all the sentient races ever faced. The Circle mages were the "greatest advantage" of the Chantry led armies during the New Exalted Marches, fighting the Qunari who threatened the kingdoms. I'm not sure how you can seriously claim that mages have never been proactively good. The narrative of Origins can involve a mage protagonist; Wynne offered her aid against the Fifth Blight; Anders refuses to leave Vigil's Keep if the Warden-Commander allows him to run off; Velanna can protect an entire human village from darkspawn. Need I go on?

[MisterJB]

LobselVith8 wrote...
Mages participated in the Blights, fighting the darkspawn to protect civilization from the greatest threat all the sentient races ever faced. The Circle mages were the "greatest advantage" of the Chantry led armies during the New Exalted Marches, fighting the Qunari who threatened the kingdoms. I'm not sure how you can seriously claim that mages have never been proactively good. The narrative of Origins can involve a mage protagonist; Wynne offered her aid against the Fifth Blight; Anders refuses to leave Vigil's Keep if the Warden-Commander allows him to run off; Velanna can protect an entire human village from darkspawn. Need I go on?

The darkspawn would kill them just as surely as anyone else and the Qunari would do worse. They were just helping themselves.
Not to mention that the Darkspawn were created by magic itself; and before you go on a tirade about how Corypheus suggested the City was already corrupted, take into account that Darkspawn require no food or air, that they don't age and that their entire reproductive system relies around the existence of the other races, no such species could have developed naturally; meaning that if there was no magic, there would be no Darkspawn.

[Medhia Nox]

@Ieldra2; Actually - I was stating that people are just cruel. You don't have to be a Templar to mistreat people.

Mage supporters just seem to ignore the injustices committed by everyone else as "a harsh world of realism!"

My problem with mage supporters (and the mages in the game) is that they're all cause-heads who don't care about injustice against others... just against thier pet cause.

@LobselVith8: You bend a knee to your government right now.

And - you ignore the concept that maybe, just maybe, the mages ARE responsible for the creation of the Darkspawn in the first place.

And I mean "Pro-Actively Good" on a large scale to try to free their people (I've never, ever argued for Templar control - that's just more projection by over-reacting emotional forum-goers who, very likely project their own personal issues onto mages in the first place).

And let's be serious - it's not like the Darkspawn would just leave the mages alone. The mages are fighting for their own lives too. Don't try to paint it as purely altruistic.

As for Wynne - she's a cheat. Most people hate her sermonizing - but those same people will use her as a defense against mage freedom. A freedom she NEVER condones (because she believes the system has "some" merit).

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 24 juin 2013 - 02:17 .

[LobselVith8]

Medhia Nox wrote...

Mages are never shown to do this - so, like everyone else - they must be policed.

The Mages Collective has policed mages. The Warden who aids their cause is even tasked with killing dangerous mages and an abomination.

Medhia Nox wrote...

Had the mages decided that mages should police mages prior to having the non-mages take care of it themselves... maybe they wouldn't have had this problem. ((They also wouldn't have made the original Tevinter))

When did they have such an opportunity? When the original Inquisition hunted them down, along with heretics? When Drakon's nationalized Cult of the Maker vilified mages and magic? When the Chantry sacked a kingdom with free elven mages and non-mages?

Medhia Nox wrote...

The message that Bioware states clearly I feel - is that mages are born with power, but not the will for self-control. Hence - great abusal ensues.

What message do you get from the templars who tortured a child of the Dalish? From the templars who worked with Alrik to tranquil mages illegally, as he used some as sex slaves? From the templars who raped Alain? The death squad murdering civilians in broad daylight? The templars who were just 'following orders' in killing an entire population for being mages?

Mages have done bad things. Templars have done bad things. Why are you acting like it's one-sided?

Medhia Nox wrote...

Ieldra2: That clinic was a cover for his terrorist cell.  You can argue against it all you want - but the Fereldens kept him safe to build his bomb and free rebel mages... so he kept healing them. 

And looking for plants isn't necessarily "good" (despite being a horitculturalist myself). 

Anders decided to join the mage underground after Karl was illegally made tranquil, when Anders killed him to spare him since he didn't want to let Karl live out the rest of his life as a "templar puppet". That changed the rest of his life. He dedicated himself to ending the slavery of his people.

[Medhia Nox]

@LobselVIth8: And yet, the Mage Collective is too cowardly to accept self-sacrifice - preferring to act in the shadow. So nobody knows what they're doing. So - they're being counter productive to helping their people.

Maybe they had the opportunity in the "last 1000 years"?

The Templars that commit atrocities should be tried and hanged. Just like mages should be tried and hanged. The only difference - mages are born with a mental imbalance called "Demons always trying to carve out your soul and use your body as a skin suit."  And we do treat mentally unstable people different in the real world.

As for Anders - he's just more of that myopic cause-head mentality. He's only doing it because something bad happened to him. That's not noble - that's selfish.  Much like Jowan - everything he does is selfish.  And his magnum opus is blowing up a good portion of Kirkwall (not going to argue it - watch the video on YouTube).

Show me the mage that doesn't resort to healing magic AFTER they've committed some crime (again, Wynne is a cheat by those who want mage freedom - she doesn't condone it) 

Also - I play video games, not read video game books.  Bother me with book characters only once they're in the games (as this is a game forum).

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 24 juin 2013 - 02:27 .

[LobselVith8]

MisterJB wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Mages participated in the Blights, fighting the darkspawn to protect civilization from the greatest threat all the sentient races ever faced. The Circle mages were the "greatest advantage" of the Chantry led armies during the New Exalted Marches, fighting the Qunari who threatened the kingdoms. I'm not sure how you can seriously claim that mages have never been proactively good. The narrative of Origins can involve a mage protagonist; Wynne offered her aid against the Fifth Blight; Anders refuses to leave Vigil's Keep if the Warden-Commander allows him to run off; Velanna can protect an entire human village from darkspawn. Need I go on?

The darkspawn would kill them just as surely as anyone else and the Qunari would do worse. They were just helping themselves.

And you know this for a fact how? What we know is that mages have done good things, which contradicts the claim that they haven't; Grey Wardens are created due to the participation of mages with the Joining Ritual, and their role is to end the Blights that threaten Thedas.

MisterJB wrote...

Not to mention that the Darkspawn were created by magic itself; and before you go on a tirade about how Corypheus suggested the City was already corrupted, take into account that Darkspawn require no food or air, that they don't age and that their entire reproductive system relies around the existence of the other races, no such species could have developed naturally; meaning that if there was no magic, there would be no Darkspawn. 

Unless you have proof that the darkspawn were created by magic, you don't have much of a point. Your speculation isn't proof. We don't know how the darkspawn were created; Corypheus' own admissions have lead to speculation that the City was already Black and that the Magisters might not have even been the first darkspawn. That's the central issue; you vilify all mages for a religious fable about five.

[MisterJB]

LobselVith8 wrote...
And you know this for a fact how? What we know is that mages have done good things, which contradicts the claim that they haven't; Grey Wardens are created due to the participation of mages with the Joining Ritual, and their role is to end the Blights that threaten Thedas.

Do darkspawn spare mages? Do qunari? No. Then, obviously, mages are helping themselves when they fight against both these threats.
If the mages help fight off a Tevinter invasion, I migth actually give them some credit. But the last time Southern Thedas fought the Imperium, the mages were actually defecting to their side.

Unless you have proof that the darkspawn were created by magic, you don't have much of a point. Your speculation isn't proof. We don't know how the darkspawn were created; Corypheus' own admissions have lead to speculation that the City was already Black and that the Magisters might not have even been the first darkspawn. That's the central issue; you vilify all mages for a religious fable about five.

The central issue is you ignoring basic biology to protect your favored people.
An immortal race who reproduces through the females of other races could have happened naturally? Obviously, it couldn't have. Meaning, the darkspawn were created by magic, even if not because of the Magisters. Meaning, that without magic, there wouldn't be darkspawn. Meaning, that mages fighting darkspawn is nothing short of their duty after they created this mess.

[LobselVith8]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@LobselVith8: You bend a knee to your government right now. 

I live by the rule of law in my country; I don't bend knee to slavery.

Medhia Nox wrote...

And - you ignore the concept that maybe, just maybe, the mages ARE responsible for the creation of the Darkspawn in the first place.

I ignore the notion that five individuals condemn all mages.

Medhia Nox wrote...

And I mean "Pro-Actively Good" on a large scale to try to free their people (I've never, ever argued for Templar control - that's just more projection by over-reacting emotional forum-goers who, very likely project their own personal issues onto mages in the first place).

Aiding in the Blights and the New Exalted Marches is a large scale. It isn't enough when the national religion refuses to lessen their grip on the mages they control across Thedas.

Medhia Nox wrote...

And let's be serious - it's not like the Darkspawn would just leave the mages alone. The mages are fighting for their own lives too. Don't try to paint it as purely altruistic.

The darkspawn won't leave anyone alone; and even then, Grey Wardens need to persuade and coerce the leaders of other nations to get involved.

Medhia Nox wrote...

As for Wynne - she's a cheat. Most people hate her sermonizing - but those same people will use her as a defense against mage freedom. A freedom she NEVER condones (because she believes the system has "some" merit).

People don't need to agree with Wynne to point out that she proactively offers aid to fight the Fifth Blight. And Wynne explicitly says she argues against the Circles breaking free because the Chantry would kill the mages rather than see them free.

[MisterJB]

Ieldra2 wrote...
By that logic, we should all have implanted ID transponders and only be able to leave home accompanied by the
police, because, you know, otherwise nothing prevents me from acquiring a gun and killing a few dozen people before anyone can respond.

A modern issue and one that is not applicable to Thedas where guns that facilitate killing don't really exist. I hear what you're saying and it's, of course, a much debated theme in current times but the situation in Thedas is different enough that I feel I can simply say "A non-mage might grab a sword and threaten or kill someone but he could never cause harm to the extent a mage could."

To say nothing about the fact that in this scenario, the abuses by the police would become worse than everything they're trying to prevent in no time at all. As experiments have shown, there are few things more effective at turning people into monsters than to give them permanent institutionalized power over others.

It's true that giving people power over others can easily lead to abuse but whatever abuses the templars could commit against the mages it's nothing comparedto what they can and have commited against non-mages because magic justgives that extra "creativty".
For instance, Danarius once killed a small boy to fuel his blood magic to perform a party trick. The worst the Templars have done to small boys is take them from their families; who usually hate them after magic has revealed itself, anyway.

Ieldra2 wrote...
The pro-Templar perspective insists that a culture that integrates mages well and motivates enough of them to act responsibly and help contain the madmen that it functions cannot exist. Well, that it hasn't existed before doesn't mean it cannot exist.

I can only speak for myself but I never claimed that the reason such a culture is impossible is solely because it never existed before.
Rather, it's impossible because of the very nature of humans. For instance, let's start with something small.
At the end of this war, templars agreed to have a greater participation of mages in the duties of policing mages. Sound great, right? Law-abbiding mages can be useful against criminal mages and the presence of both groups helps assure a more just proceeding.
But here is where it's likely to lead us to.
Option 1- Mages and templars just won't trust each other. It makes sense; after all, mages are not likely to ever sympathize with people who are specifically trained to kill them; regardless of how much essencial they are; and templars also won't trust the mages to not be too lenient with criminal mages. So, both groups constantly sabotage each other efforts and it doesn't take long before this short lived alliance is in tatters.

Option 2- Everything goes well. Mages, with the memory of the Circle fresh in their mind, actually perform admirably well in policing their own. So well, in fact, that people rely more and more on them. After all, being a Templar is an harsh duty, it require one to sacrifice one's mind.
So, the number of mages serving in the police force increase while the number of non-mages diminish. And from there, as mages participate in social life, it's a small step to having mages helping the guardsman deal with more mundane troubles. Magic is useful, after all. You can say some would see this an unwise, and you will be right. But human beings have done things that were quite unwise.
Then, it's five generations later. The number of mages working on law enforcing agencies has long since crushed those who don't; or they have simply taken leadership positions; and the Circle and Templars are just old history to these mages which leads to them ignoring crimes commited by mages.

Even more to the point, it has never been tried. All innovations had to be pushed through against the resistance of tradition.

It has been tried. The Dalish, Rivain and Cashind are all examples of culture close to the model you present and what they all have in common is that mages have long since become the higher strata if their societies. Which is why some pro-mages, myself included, deny the idea these cultures serve as an example to the rest of Thedas on how to achieve peace.

The manifesto explicitly does not paint a picture of the future. It does not assert that it will all work out. It does - implicitly - assert that there is a moral obligation to try.

Why is it more of a moral obligation to help the mages; at the expense of a world war, no less; than it is for mages to accept the Circle thus averting much bloodshed?

Modifié par MisterJB, 24 juin 2013 - 02:52 .

[LobselVith8]

MisterJB wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

And you know this for a fact how? What we know is that mages have done good things, which contradicts the claim that they haven't; Grey Wardens are created due to the participation of mages with the Joining Ritual, and their role is to end the Blights that threaten Thedas.

Do darkspawn spare mages? Do qunari? No. Then, obviously, mages are helping themselves when they fight against both these threats.

The mages helped the people who were under siege from the darkspawn, rather than fleeing to the Imperium or the remote Anderfels, or even the uncharted territories beneath the nation of Ferelden.

MisterJB wrote...

If the mages help fight off a Tevinter invasion, I migth actually give them some credit. But the last time Southern Thedas fought the Imperium, the mages were actually defecting to their side.

Some mages fled for a chance at freedom under the Imperial Chantry. Not all.

MisterJB wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Unless you have proof that the darkspawn were created by magic, you don't have much of a point. Your speculation isn't proof. We don't know how the darkspawn were created; Corypheus' own admissions have lead to speculation that the City was already Black and that the Magisters might not have even been the first darkspawn. That's the central  issue; you vilify all mages for a religious fable about five.

The central issue is you ignoring basic biology to protect your favored people.

I didn't realize a fantasy setting with spirits, magic, and unexplained phenomenon dealt with basic biology, since couplings between humans and elves give birth to human children. I also didn't realize that you knew the true genesis of the darkspawn.

MisterJB wrote...

An immortal race who reproduces through the females of other races could have happened naturally? Obviously, it couldn't have. Meaning, the darkspawn were created by magic, even if not because of the Magisters. Meaning, that without magic, there wouldn't be darkspawn. Meaning, that mages fighting darkspawn is nothing short of their duty after they created this mess.

Sorry, but your speculation isn't indisputable fact. The fact is we really don't have all the facts about the inception of the darkspawn. Thinking that magic could be the cause isn't the same as knowing for certain.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 24 juin 2013 - 03:07 .

[jtav]

Denarius is not cruel because he's a mage; he's cruel because Telvinter has a class of people who are considered expendable and he's a sociopath. And abuse against the person of mages happens as well. See: Alrik. What is desperately needed is something that can reasonably assure the natural rights of mages and the safety of mundanes. Train the city guard in anti-mage attacks. Hire trusted mages on to said city guard. Turn the Circles into boarding schools and actively encourage contact with the family. Anything to break down this us vs. them mentality.

[Ieldra]

Medhia Nox wrote...
@Ieldra2; Actually - I was stating that people are just cruel. You don't have to be a Templar to mistreat people.

Mage supporters just seem to ignore the injustices committed by everyone else as "a harsh world of realism!"

My problem with mage supporters (and the mages in the game) is that they're all cause-heads who don't care about injustice against others... just against thier pet cause.

Those other injustices aren't a topic in these debates because they aren't made a big topic in the games. As for other big topics, talk about things like slavery in Tevinter are discussed in other threads. I could just as easily go and say templar supporters and templars in the games care about nothing but containing the dangers of magic, and it would be an equally wrong generalization.

[Sir JK]

Ieldra2 wrote...

@Sir JK:
A fine and coherent line of reasoning. There are only a few problems with it:

The point "opportunity makes the thief" can as easily be applied to the templars. They have the power and their judgments remain secret to the mage population, as we see in "Asunder". It's even more of an invitation to abuse than in your "mage in a remote village" example because the templars have institutionalized power over them.

There is also the unanswered question of how much power a mage can really exert continuously over a majority of non-mages without a tradition of obeying mages like in Tevinter. Even mind control by blood magic has its limits, and even a powerful mage might be threatened by an angry mob. As opposed to what many people believe, even apparently absolute rule won't function without the assent of the ruled. Oppress people badly enough, and at some point, people won't care any more how many of them die to remove the oppressors.

Which brings me to a wider perspective. I think one big problem is that there isn't a positive example of a culture that integrates mages on Thedas. We have Tevinter, the qunari, and we have the Chantry-dominated lands. However, a culture is important in order to uphold certain values. Trying to establish slavery in Ferelden - that just wouldn't work. You can bring as much power as you want, the people won't go along because of the ingrained freedom-loving culture. You can stamp that out but it takes time and dedication. An attempt of Tevinter to conquer Ferelden, that would end up like the Soviet Union's attempt to conquer Afghanistan in the 1980s. What is needed is a culture of mages acting responsibly and one of non-mages appreciating useful magic. In such an environment, the responsible mages would be motivated to help keep the power-crazed in check because that benefits them. While decrying the Circle system, the manifesto also calls for the creation of such a culture. This normally takes time, and of course a gradual change would have been preferable, but since the Chantry wasn't open to gradual change for a thousand years we now have a revolution instead.

The pro-Templar perspective insists that a culture that integrates mages well and motivates enough of them to act responsibly and help contain the madmen that it functions cannot exist. Well, that it hasn't existed before doesn't mean it cannot exist. Even more to the point, it has never been tried. All innovations had to be pushed through against the resistance of tradition. The manifesto explicitly does not paint a picture of the future. It does not assert that it will all work out. It does - implicitly - assert that there is a moral obligation to try.

A reasonable response.

You're absolutely correct that the circles lended themselves well to abuse. You're also correct in that there's only so much a mage can do before he manages to stir up an angry mobs against him (at which point the threat of what he can do no longer becomes an issue, they're clearly so fed up they're willing to suffer it).

I merely sought to explain the reasoning behind the circles. Not to propose a new system. But I dare say that the pro-templar position is considerably more cynical than the pro-mage one. The fallibility of mages (being human) is a very major point. There will be abuses. Without a circle, how do you protect people before this supposed utopia emerges? There's nothing wrong with trying to make things better, it's doing so irresponsibly (in this context: without safeguards) that's the problem.

I absolutely loved the manifesto, as I explained earlier in this thread, and I'd love to write a equally well written IC response (I don't have time now though, I'm going abroad tomorrow). That'd be far more interesting than any ooc discussion methinks. But it is unlikely to sway anyone not already fairly in the pro-mage camp. For the reasons mentioned in my previous explanation and in this post: It's not cynical enough.

[Medhia Nox]

@Ieldra2: Yes, but justifying someone like Anders because: "Someone treats him monstrously."

Implies that everyone else should act like a "freedom fighter" - because, if perspective is used at all - everyone has likely been mistreated.

But why are some given special dispensation for violence?

Don't act like these threads aren't filled with myopic viewpoints (Templar and Mage alike)

My argument is not that mages should be oppressed - or that Templars should be destroyed. Mine is that the way the mages went about it is not only counter-productive to achieving actual freedom - it's so beneath the moral high ground that I don't want them to achieve it (as a mage player).

Using their magic to blast their way to freedom is exactly the problem (to me).

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 24 juin 2013 - 03:24 .

[MisterJB]

LobselVith8 wrote...
The mages helped the people who were under siege from the darkspawn, rather than fleeing to the Imperium or the remote Anderfels, or even the uncharted territories beneath the nation of Ferelden.

Yeah because there were templars around that would not see that with good eyes. Plus, good luck to the group of hundreds of mages trying to cross the extent of Thedas, they'll need it.
Just accept that anyone fighting the Darkspawn is just helping himself because those things will kill everyone.

Some mages fled for a chance at freedom under the Imperial Chantry. Not all.

So now we're accepting a civilization that condones slavery?
Those who didn't escape were just being better watched.

I didn't realize a fantasy setting with spirits, magic, and unexplained phenomenon dealt with basic biology, since couplings between humans and elves give birth to human children. I also didn't realize that you knew the true genesis of the darkspawn.

Sorry, but your speculation isn't indisputable fact. The fact is we really don't have all the facts about the inception of the darkspawn. Thinking that magic could be the cause isn't the same as knowing for certain.

It's quite ironic you'd mention the human-elven coupling given that DG's justification was "magic"
Yes, unless we are specifically told otherwise, we assume that a fictional world's biology works in the same manner as ours or should we also assume thedosians have no kindneys since we never see one using the bathroom?
And the fact is that something like the Darkspawn could never have evolved naturally. Obviously, their origin is arcane.

[Medhia Nox]

@LobselVith8: And - I agree with Wynne.

The rebellion was the very definition of the wrong way to go about a better life for mages. Which only proves that mages are no more educated than the rest of Thedas. (can't beat the "I'm not Pro-Templar" horse enough evidently)

Which is amazing - I've read threads that suggest mages are more educated than all of Thedas - but, they're slaves. It boggles the mind some people's definition of slavery. Sounds like the view point of modern First Worlders.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 24 juin 2013 - 03:31 .

[Xilizhra]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Ieldra2: Yes, but justifying someone like Anders because: "Someone treats him monstrously."

Implies that everyone else should act like a "freedom fighter" - because, if perspective is used at all - everyone has likely been mistreated.

But why are some given special dispensation for violence?

Don't act like these threads aren't filled with myopic viewpoints (Templar and Mage alike)

My argument is not that mages should be oppressed - or that Templars should be destroyed. Mine is that the way the mages went about it is not only counter-productive to achieving actual freedom - it's so beneath the moral high ground that I don't want them to achieve it (as a mage player).

Using their magic to blast their way to freedom is exactly the problem (to me).

Mages are blasting their way to survival. The templars started the war. The mages did not start a war against the Chantry; the Chantry let them go, then the templars betrayed the Chantry to launch their own war. The mages are acting only in self-defense.

[LobselVith8]

MisterJB wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The mages helped the people who were under siege from the darkspawn, rather than fleeing to the Imperium or the remote Anderfels, or even the uncharted territories beneath the nation of Ferelden.

Yeah because there were templars around that would not see that with good eyes. Plus, good luck to the group of hundreds of mages trying to cross the extent of Thedas, they'll need it.
Just accept that anyone fighting the Darkspawn is just helping himself because those things will kill everyone.

That's the exact opposite of what some of the surviving mages in the Circle Tower say when they discuss participating in the Fifth Blight.

MisterJB wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Some mages fled for a chance at freedom under the Imperial Chantry. Not all.

So now we're accepting a civilization that condones slavery?
Those who didn't escape were just being better watched.

'We'? I explained why they fled to Tevinter. 'We' doesn't factor into it.

MisterJB wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I didn't realize a fantasy setting with spirits, magic, and unexplained phenomenon dealt with basic biology, since couplings between humans and elves give birth to human children. I also didn't realize that you knew the true genesis of the darkspawn.

Sorry, but your speculation isn't indisputable fact. The fact is we really don't have all the facts about the inception of the darkspawn. Thinking that magic could be the cause isn't the same as knowing for certain.

It's quite ironic you'd mention the human-elven coupling given that DG's justification was "magic"
Yes, unless we are specifically told otherwise, we assume that a fictional world's biology works in the same manner as ours or should we also assume thedosians have no kindneys since we never see one using the bathroom?
And the fact is that something like the Darkspawn could never have evolved naturally. Obviously, their origin is arcane. 

We don't know who or what created the darkspawn; it's as simple as that. You're welcome to theorize all you want, but don't act as though your assumptions are facts.

[Xilizhra]

We don't know who or what created the darkspawn; it's as simple as that. You're welcome to theorize all you want, but don't act as though your assumptions are facts.

Of course, by the Chantry's reckoning, it's the Maker's own fault...

[LobselVith8]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@LobselVith8: And - I agree with Wynne.

The rebellion was the very definition of the wrong way to go about a better life for mages. Which only proves that mages are no more educated than the rest of Thedas. (can't beat the "I'm not Pro-Templar" horse enough evidently)

The mages chose autonomy. The templars chose to hunt them down. It's more an act of self-defense by people who refused to live on their knees anymore.

Medhia Nox wrote...

Which is amazing - I've read threads that suggest mages are more educated than all of Thedas - but, they're slaves. It boggles the mind some people's definition of slavery. Sounds like the view point of modern First Worlders.

Some slaves were educated. It amazes me how some people bring this up as though it never happened in real life.

[MisterJB]

LobselVith8 wrote...
That's the exact opposite of what some of the surviving mages in the Circle Tower say when they discuss participating in the Fifth Blight.

And it's also what irving says: "I'd hate to survive this only to be overtaken by the Blight"
Meaning, he is just scared of darkspawn overruning Ferelden and coming for them eventually.
What that female mage says is that they'll capitalize on the help Ferelden needs to improve their lives which means, they're doing it for themselves which is also very intune with what Wynne does in "Asunder". She allows the Orlesian Civil War to worsen in hopes that the Circle will be called to help at which point they can demand rewards.

'We'? I explained why they fled to Tevinter. 'We' doesn't factor into it.

So, you don't support mages escaping to Tevinter even if that meant they'd be free?

We don't know who or what created the darkspawn; it's as simple as that. You're welcome to theorize all you want, but don't act as though your assumptions are facts.

Magic. The Magister's, the Maker's, whatever. Magic did it.
We have two options. Either something developed naturally due to the laws of science and physics or something else else created it. Given that the darkspawn could not have developed naturally since their biology goes against every law of science ever discovered and that technology in Thedas has not evolved to the point where it could create these creatures, there is only one option left. Magic did it.

Modifié par MisterJB, 24 juin 2013 - 03:57 .

[KainD]

EntropicAngel wrote...

KainD wrote...

No, freedom is more important than safety. It is reasonable to expect the general populace to bear it. 

I really don't want to get stuck in this thread, because I don't think I could get back out...

But I have to ask, Kain: Are you an anarchist?

Yes.