1656 réponses à ce sujet

[lil yonce]

EntropicAngel wrote...

Filament wrote...

This is where I just  fundamentally disagree with practically all of you pro-templar folks about human nature. We are not inescapably, irrationally selfish. Goodness can be cultivated.

Incidently, this is why I find myself identifying more with pro-templars/renegades, though I don't necessarily agree with their methods: I see the utter depravity of humanity, while many mage/paragon-eers espouse your theory or something even more extreme ("we're all basically good inside").

I believe in the animal core or a sin nature but I believe that it can be overcome because that is not all a person has or can develop.

[jtav]

I'm deeply cynical of human nature. Those in power will tend to oppress those without power in ways large and small. *But* the templar and Chantry can oppress the mage as easily as the mage can oppress the mundane. The Circle system as it stands does not work: it dehumanizes mages and leaves them vulnerable to sexual assault and psychological torture to a degree I find unacceptable. A mage should have the right to marry and raise his children, to own property, and to be subject to the same laws as other men. They need to be policed, but I see no reason why this cannot be done by a properly trained city guard that also includes trusted mages.

[Xilizhra]

Magic. The Magister's, the Maker's, whatever. Magic did it.
We have two options. Either something developed naturally due to the laws of science and physics or something else else created it. Given that the darkspawn could not have developed naturally since their biology goes against every law of science ever discovered and that technology in Thedas has not evolved to the point where it could create these creatures, there is only one option left. Magic did it.

Magic is intrinsically part of Thedas' physics and biology; you can't separate it any more than you could separate gravity. Though I do agree that it's quite possible that the Maker should be killed if it exists.

[Medhia Nox]

@LobselVith8: A few house slaves giving up their self-respect for comfort (not only for themselves - but for their enslaved families).... is NOT the same as "All mages should be trained in magic."

Hopefully even you can see that.

[LobselVith8]

MisterJB wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

That's the exact opposite of what some of the surviving mages in the Circle Tower say when they discuss participating in the Fifth Blight.

And it's also what irving says: "I'd hate to survive this only to be overtaken by the Blight"
Meaning, he is just scared of darkspawn overruning Ferelden and coming for them eventually.

That's true of Irving, but not every mage.

MisterJB wrote...

What that female mage says is that they'll capitalize on the help Ferelden needs to improve their lives which means, they're doing it for themselves which is also very intune with what Wynne does in "Asunder". She allows the Orlesian Civil War to worsen in hopes that the Circle will be called to help at which point they can demand rewards.

You take a very cynical look at what the Circle mage tells the other Circle mage. We can also see the example of the female blood mage who accepts being conscripted into The Warden's army when given the chance to use her blood magic for a greater good.

MisterJB wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

'We'? I explained why they[/i] fled to Tevinter. 'We' doesn't factor into it.

So, you don't support mages escaping to Tevinter even if that meant they'd be free?

I doubt they are free in Tevinter. Mages can be enslaved as well in the Imperium. As a player, I'd like to see Tevinter - in much the same I liked seeing House Telvanni.

MisterJB wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

We don't know who or what created the darkspawn; it's as simple as that. You're welcome to theorize all you want, but don't act as though your assumptions are facts.

Magic. The Magister's, the Maker's, whatever. Magic did it.
We have two options. Either something developed naturally due to the laws of science and physics or something else else created it. Given that the darkspawn could not have developed naturally since their biology goes against every law of science ever discovered and that technology in Thedas has not evolved to the point where it could create these creatures, there is only one option left. Magic did it. 

You could be right. However, since we don't know the truth, we can't say with any certainty.

[Xilizhra]

How does it actually dehumanize, if it educates? That's completely contradictory. You don't teach an animal.

...wat?

[jtav]

EntropicAngel wrote...

jtav wrote...

I'm deeply cynical of human nature. Those in power will tend to oppress those without power in ways large and small. *But* the templar and Chantry can oppress the mage as easily as the mage can oppress the mundane. The Circle system as it stands does not work: it dehumanizes mages and leaves them vulnerable to sexual assault and psychological torture to a degree I find unacceptable. A mage should have the right to marry and raise his children, to own property, and to be subject to the same laws as other men. They need to be policed, but I see no reason why this cannot be done by a properly trained city guard that also includes trusted mages.

How does it actually dehumanize, if it educates? That's completely contradictory. You don't teach an animal.

"Fetch, Fido! Good boy! Aren't you a smart dog?" I'd also mention that there were educated slaves and that chattel slavery is not the only slavery.

The Circle consistently treats mages, not as people with an inherent dignity and special challenges and gifts, but as potential abominations. This is not good for psychological health--or for keeping them from turning into abominations.

[KainD]

EntropicAngel wrote...

Well that's a little disappointing, we were such a nice couple!

[dragonflight288]

Youth4Ever wrote...

EntropicAngel wrote...

Filament wrote...

This is where I just  fundamentally disagree with practically all of you pro-templar folks about human nature. We are not inescapably, irrationally selfish. Goodness can be cultivated.

Incidently, this is why I find myself identifying more with pro-templars/renegades, though I don't necessarily agree with their methods: I see the utter depravity of humanity, while many mage/paragon-eers espouse your theory or something even more extreme ("we're all basically good inside").

I believe in the animal core or a sin nature but I believe that it can be overcome because that is not all a person has or can develop.

Add in that every single person is unique and have differing perspectives, and suddenly generalizing a group becomes....well, just a generalization and most likely is wrong.

Are we all basic animals, or do we subscribe to Hobbe's theories of the Social Compact? Everyone is entitled to an opinion, but that doesn't mean that one theory is the answer to the human condition because all it takes is one person to act in a manner contrary to that particular social theory to disprove it when talking about all humanity.

Now I'm too lazy to go back and look up the discussion between Lobel and MisterJB when it comes to the source of the darkspawn, so I'm just going to give my opinion and let them respond.

Speaking scientifically, let's use some actual terms here. A value judgement is when an individual, no matter who they are, determine if something is good or if something is bad, and is opinion based, whereas scientifically we can only deal in direct facts.

Now some gamers may take Corypheus' statements as proof of one way or another, and in one case at one thread, I saw a gamer outright dismiss anything lore-building from the DA2 dlc because they just hated the game itself and didn't want to discuss the dlc. But fact of the matter is we know beyond a shadow of a doubt that the magisters did go into the black city. Corypheus' makes it clear it was supposed to be golden, but it was black, meaning it was black upon arrival.

After that, everything becomes speculation about the origins of the darkspawn. Dwarven codex entries make it clear that the darkspawn came from below, and the timelines suggests it happened before the magisters went into the black city. If this is true, then that means that despite what some templar-supporters are saying, it was not the magisters who created the darkspawn, but more likely it was the dwarves.

But an observant of dwarven culture would also note that they are not above altering their memories. The Dwarven Noble storyline shows this remarkably well. Despite all his/her achievements, he suddenly no longer legally exists, or even ever existed as he was stripped from the memories, and Witch Hunt shows that the dwarves wiped out the elves they sheltered after Arlathan was destroyed, for fear of Tevinter, and then wiped it from the memories so they wouldn't remember they committed genocide themselves. So that takes away the credibility of the dwarven memories.

Leaving us with two theories on how the darkspawn came to be, and until one is proven beyond a shadow of doubt, some may rage, some may moan if it's not what they thought it to be, but until it's proven then they are merely theories and therefore are open to error.

[Medhia Nox]

@jtav: You see - your criticism are the first time I've ever heard someone sound reasonable and not just emotionally reactionary about the magic condition.

Though I'm not a fan of the use of the "special needs" concept - unless it's special needs in the same way that a man hears voices and sometimes those voices to tell him to kill everyone and sometimes he might not be able to stop himself.

[Xilizhra]

I would argue education is a pretty humanizing activity (not depriving, but rather encouraging human qualities, personality, or spirit)

No, I was referring to your utterly bizarre statement that we don't teach nonhuman animals. We do, frequently. That's kind of the whole point of domestication.

[Medhia Nox]

It's called "training" Xilizhra.  You train an animal.

There's a difference - there's a distinct lack of autonomy in "training". 

Teaching is liberating - or perhaps you disagree with every fascist nation yet to exist on our planet who has subdued their populations by taking away their ability to self-educate?

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 24 juin 2013 - 04:59 .

[Xilizhra]

Medhia Nox wrote...

It's called "training" Xilizhra.  You train an animal.

There's a difference - there's a distinct lack of autonomy in "training". 

Teaching is liberating - or perhaps you disagree with every fascist nation yet to exist on our planet who has subdued their populations by taking away their ability to self-educate?

Actually, education, being a major tool of socialization, is well-loved by totalitarian regimes to bring to all of their children (these being technologically and relatively culturally advanced ones; others can get away with providing little education just through widespread cultural oppression practiced on a familial rather than state level) to ensure loyalty to the cause. Teaching is only liberating if it stresses independent thought and freedom from suffocating cultural norms, which the Circle does not do.

[LobselVith8]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@LobselVith8: A few house slaves giving up their self-respect for comfort (not only for themselves - but for their enslaved families).... is NOT the same as "All mages should be trained in magic."

Hopefully even you can see that. 

Many pro-mage players don't disagree with properly teaching mages how to use their powers; the divergence comes from having the mages live and work under the auspices of the Chantry and their templars.

The other issue is with people who act as though some slaves were never given fine clothing or an education, which is emphatically untrue.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 24 juin 2013 - 05:21 .

[iOnlySignIn]

Xilizhra wrote...

Actually, education, being a major tool of socialization, is well-loved by totalitarian regimes to bring to all of their children (these being technologically and relatively culturally advanced ones; others can get away with providing little education just through widespread cultural oppression practiced on a familial rather than state level) to ensure loyalty to the cause.

It never works though. If you make someone smart they are going to see through your bullsh!t.

This is why I think (non-Magic) education in the Circle must be garbage at best.

Modifié par iOnlySignIn, 24 juin 2013 - 05:14 .

[Xilizhra]

iOnlySignIn wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Actually, education, being a major tool of socialization, is well-loved by totalitarian regimes to bring to all of their children (these being technologically and relatively culturally advanced ones; others can get away with providing little education just through widespread cultural oppression practiced on a familial rather than state level) to ensure loyalty to the cause.

It never works though. If you make someone smart they are going to see through your bullsh!t.

This is why I think (non-Magic) education in the Circle must be garbage at best.

That's why a lot of education is actually designed to make you stupid, especially history.

[Xilizhra]

EntropicAngel wrote...

This isn't related to an argument in any way, but how do you feel history is designed to make you stupid, Xil?

Pre-college history education in the US has been, for a long time, utterly horrible in numerous ways. Ethnocentric, beholden to myth, beholden to political pressure from bodies that frequently swing conservatively, especially the idiotic traitor-worshiping neo-Confederates... the list goes on. Things have improved somewhat, but there's still a long way to go; there've been quite a few college history professors who saw their jobs as consisting largely of disabusing their students of what they'd been taught in high school.