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[IceHawk-181]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

@LobselVith8: A few house slaves giving up their self-respect for comfort (not only for themselves - but for their enslaved families).... is NOT the same as "All mages should be trained in magic."

Hopefully even you can see that. 

Many pro-mage players don't did disagree with properly teaching mages how to use their powers; the divergence comes from having the mages live and work under the auspices of the Chantry and their templars.

The other issue is with people who act as though some slaves were never given fine clothing or an education, which is emphatically untrue.

House slaves were often given finery to wear while serving their masters and oftentimes were provided with education that would allow them to properly serve in a domestic role. In fact a great deal of Slaves in the Northern American Colonies were actually well educated and used for a number of clerical positions by their masters.
 
Slavery is defined by the absolute authority one wields over another's life irrespective of how comfortable it is.
 

[Medhia Nox]

@Xilizhra: And do you think having the books on Blood Magic in the halls of the Circle Tower... the same as glossing over the eradication of the indigenous peoples of the Americas?

I would say presenting the books on blood magic actually provides quite a dangerous choice - and is not at all indoctrination.

Also - the Libertarians would not be allowed if one truth control was being enforced.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 24 juin 2013 - 05:26 .

[Xilizhra]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Xilizhra: And do you think having the books on Blood Magic in the halls of the Circle Tower... the same as glossing over the eradication of the indigenous peoples of the Americas?

I would say presenting the books on blood magic actually provides quite a dangerous choice - and is not at all indoctrination.

Also - the Libertarians would not be allowed if one truth control was being enforced.

Said books were left there as a trap by Irving and/or Uldred, so no, I don't think that counts. And the Libertarians were allowed solely because it was an easy way for the templars to keep an eye on any potential troublemakers (in addition to being an enchanter body that apprentices wouldn't be involved with while being educated).

[Medhia Nox]

@Xilizhra: You're making that last part about the Libertarians up - where does it say that?

And yes, the whole point of training mages is to make sure they're not weak willed, the best way to know if a mage is weak willed is to tempt him.

I wager Tevinter mages would LOVE the concept of the Harrowing - and likely implement it. Though they clearly have nothing against blood mages (and very likely train better to survive the Harrowing).

Ignoring the idea that some mages might become sock puppets just because they haven't yet become gigantic slobbering demons... is suicidal, and I truly hope they show an independent circle imploding for this reason (or show that Tevinter has even stricter systems of control in place - which would be even more preferable).

[Volus Warlord]

Xilizhra wrote...

iOnlySignIn wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Actually, education, being a major tool of socialization, is well-loved by totalitarian regimes to bring to all of their children (these being technologically and relatively culturally advanced ones; others can get away with providing little education just through widespread cultural oppression practiced on a familial rather than state level) to ensure loyalty to the cause.

It never works though. If you make someone smart they are going to see through your bullsh!t.

This is why I think (non-Magic) education in the Circle must be garbage at best.

That's why a lot of education is actually designed to make you stupid, especially history.

This may just be my narcissism speaking, but education actually made me feel smart. (Especially history. I love history.) I mean, occasionally it got the best of me, but by the time that happened, I was already halfway through college.  While I did feel stupid there for a little bit, I mostly used it to adjust my plans for the future, and soon succeeeded.  I was able to beat all the challenges education threw at me, and until the last few years, do so with ease.  When the work did actually become challenging, the result was heavy infighting and politics with those in my class trying to find good people to work with and trying to find ways to shun those that did not carry their weight. The strong can benefit the strong, but the weak are a mere inhibition.

Also, the knowledge made so many ideals seem so pitiful.. I mean, there were days where it was like "Here's commonly held ideal X and here's why it has zero grounds in reality!" over and over again. And that was in a liberal college that was always trying to guilt you into going to these events that were.. less than catering to those of my mentality. 

So, no, education did not make me feel stupid. I had one major league derp but I was solid for the rest. Instead, it made me a jaded elitist with no respect for those I view as incapable and less than no respect for those I view as lackadaisical. It also made me much more methodical and patient with my approach to work and finding ways to extract value from others. Though I do believe I got my talent for "mindrape" from BSN. 

You're probably better off feeling stupid. 

[Xilizhra]

@Xilizhra: You're making that last part about the Libertarians up - where does it say that?

Leliana explains it in Faith.

I wager Tevinter mages would LOVE the concept of the Harrowing - and likely implement it. Though they clearly have nothing against blood mages (and very likely train better to survive the Harrowing).

I never said that Tevinter was nice.

Ignoring the idea that some mages might become sock puppets just because they haven't yet become gigantic slobbering demons... is suicidal, and I truly hope they show an independent circle imploding for this reason (or show that Tevinter has even stricter systems of control in place - which would be even more preferable).

Or, you know, you can give nonlethal tests like Malcolm did for his children. Bethany's codex entry after being forced into the Circle mentions her "long-delayed Harrowing;" however, a mage Hawke has the line "I have braved the Fade before" in Night Terrors. Thus, we may infer that Malcolm could give tests on demon resistance that involved entering the Fade, but were not the Harrowing, presumably because Malcolm would actually want his children to survive a demonic attack and would save them if things went bad.

[LobselVith8]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Xilizhra: You're making that last part about the Libertarians up - where does it say that?

And yes, the whole point of training mages is to make sure they're not weak willed, the best way to know if a mage is weak willed is to tempt him.

Some of us think it would be better to inspire the mages, instead of trying to entrap them when they live such a bleak existence.

Medhia Nox wrote...

I wager Tevinter mages would LOVE the concept of the Harrowing - and likely implement it. Though they clearly have nothing against blood mages (and very likely train better to survive the Harrowing).

Teaching mages what dangers to look out for would be a better move, if the Magi Origin is any indication.

Medhia Nox wrote...

Ignoring the idea that some mages might become sock puppets just because they haven't yet become gigantic slobbering demons... is suicidal, and I truly hope they show an independent circle imploding for this reason (or show that Tevinter has even stricter systems of control in place - which would be even more preferable).

No one ignores the risk of possession; people simply dispute the Chantry controlled Circles serving as the solution.

[Medhia Nox]

@Xilizhra: Wait a minute - everything an Andrastian says is suspect until Leliana's opinion supports your cause? That's hardly consistent.

You see - I have a conflicting attitude to many of DA's story convention. I find the Harrowing compelling... as well as Tranquility. Making both of them unnecessary just turns DA into an uninteresting generic fantasy world (or is another step toward one).

And you could never be sure your child is capable of resisting a demon until your child resisted a demon. Better - I think, to see if he/she is strong when they know two spells... than when they're First Enchanters and, out of outrageous luck, just happened to never encounter a demon... and then find themselves lacking (a very VERY unlikely event true - but not impossible).

Again - some of these things are as much interest in storytelling. I find Tranquility and the Harrowing thematically interesting - that Bioware seems to be heading toward a boring generic world of superhero mages might save me a few dollars in the future, but I'd miss the games. I've already got plenty of worlds with mages running around like superheroes - I don't need another.

@LobselVith8:  Again, my argument is just that all this inspiration and trust and training is going to be impossible now.  The mages made sure of that on their own. 

Xilizhra (I think it was Xil that recounted the events of the book ) told me that in Asunder they're given no reason to leave the Chantry - that the Chantry supported them, and they STILL walked away.  Instead of siding with the Chantry to crush the Templars... and then seeking autonomy through civil disobedience (no doubt, a less interesting route for a video game and for kids who want explosions).

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 24 juin 2013 - 05:52 .

[Xilizhra]

@Xilizhra: Wait a minute - everything an Andrastian says is suspect until Leliana's opinion supports your cause? That's hardly consistent.

You got that quote from me where?

You see - I have a conflicting attitude to many of DA's story convention. I find the Harrowing compelling... as well as Tranquility. Making both of them unnecessary just turns DA into an uninteresting generic fantasy world (or is another step toward one).

Well... too bad, really.

And you could never be sure your child is capable of resisting a demon until your child resisted a demon. Better - I think, to see if he/she is strong when they know two spells... than when they're First Enchanters and, out of outrageous luck, just happened to never encounter a demon... and then find themselves lacking (a very VERY unlikely event true - but not impossible).

This contradicts what I said about better means of resisting demons that involve less lethal testing how?

Xilizhra (I think it was Xil that recounted the events of the book
) told me that in Asunder they're given no reason to leave the Chantry -
that the Chantry supported them, and they STILL walked away.  Instead
of siding with the Chantry to crush the Templars... and then seeking
autonomy through civil disobedience (no doubt, a less interesting route
for a video game and for kids who want explosions).

Actually, no; what I said was that the Chantry allowed them to secede, and then the templars attacked them. They can't really "side with the Chantry to crush the templars" when the Chantry's entire army just up and walked away.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 24 juin 2013 - 05:53 .

[LobselVith8]

Volus Warlord wrote...

So, no, education did not make me feel stupid. I had one major league derp but I was solid for the rest. Instead, it made me a jaded elitist with no respect for those I view as incapable and less than no respect for those I view as lackadaisical. It also made me much more methodical and patient with my approach to work and finding ways to extract value from others. Though I do believe I got my talent for "mindrape" from BSN.

You didn't actually read Xil's post explaining how disingenuous and factually inaccurate some historical lessons are, did you?

Volus Warlord wrote...

You're probably better off feeling stupid.  

I'll take that as a no.

[Medhia Nox]

@Xilizhra: Yes, but they could have become the Chantry's new "army" even if only for a moment... the perception of unity with the faith of the people would have completely ended this war before it began.

[Xilizhra]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Xilizhra: Yes, but they could have become the Chantry's new "army" even if only for a moment... the perception of unity with the faith of the people would have completely ended this war before it began.

You assume that the Chantry would take them, or would want to levy war against the templars.

[LobselVith8]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@LobselVith8:  Again, my argument is just that all this inspiration and trust and training is going to be impossible now.  The mages made sure of that on their own.

Civil disobedience isn't much of an option when templars can legally commit genocide, or simply make you tranquil.

Medhia Nox wrote...

Xilizhra (I think it was Xil that recounted the events of the book ) told me that in Asunder they're given no reason to leave the Chantry - that the Chantry supported them, and they STILL walked away.  Instead of siding with the Chantry to crush the Templars... and then seeking autonomy through civil disobedience (no doubt, a less interesting route for a video game and for kids who want explosions). 

Divine Justina V wanting to give the Circles a little more wiggle room to keep the mages under the Chantry's boot is hardly an example of support. The mages chose independence over continued servitude, and I don't blame them. I wouldn't side with a morally corrupt and ethically bankrupt organization like the Andrastian Chantry, especially when they spent a millennia vilifying magic and mages across the Andrastian kingdoms.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 24 juin 2013 - 06:03 .

[Ieldra]

jtav wrote...
The Circle consistently treats mages, not as people with an inherent dignity and special challenges and gifts, but as potential abominations. This is not good for psychological health--or for keeping them from turning into abominations.

That's really the core problem. I'd be open for a compromise solution as long as the dehumanizing stops. In matters unrelated to magic, mages need to be treated like any other humans. So no forced isolation, no constant surveillance by members of an enemy ideology, and full integration into the life of the community. Which level of surveillance is necessary within that scenario is a matter for debate, but those things need to go. It's really a matter of culture. The Andrastean Chantry is built on opposition to magic and mages. That's not a good ideological basis for fair treatment. 

Modifié par Ieldra2, 24 juin 2013 - 09:19 .

[MWImexico]

Ieldra2 wrote...

jtav wrote...
The Circle consistently treats mages, not as people with an inherent dignity and special challenges and gifts, but as potential abominations. This is not good for psychological health--or for keeping them from turning into abominations.

That's really the core problem. I'd be open for a compromise solution as long as the dehumanizing stops. In matters unrelated to magic, mages need to be treated like any other humans. So no forced isolation, no constant surveillance by members of an enemy ideology, and full integration into the life of the community. Which level of surveillance is necessary within that scenario is a matter for debate, but those things need to go. It's really a matter of culture. The Andrastean Chantry is built on opposition to magic and mages. That's not a good ideological basis for fair treatment. 

I totally agree with you about the dehumanizing of the mages, people need to stop punish them for things they, as individual, are not responsible for. It is crucial to stop looking backward and begin to go forward.

Now there is still a big problem. I won't blame magic on itself, being capable of throwing fireballs is less dangerous than a prince determined to wipe out a city. Also we should relativise the power of the mages, after all, the cercle of Kirkwall can be erased with a bunch of templars guided by Hawk, blood magic involved or not, that is not that hard.

My true problem reside in the potential possession of the mages that can occur, if I'm not wrong, quite easily if they are not formed well or to weak to resist. I can be wrong about that subject, I admit my lack of knowledge. But if this is true, well, let's not forget about it.

Finaly, about the templars, the way they manage mages must be improved greatly or we should simply find another way to control the mages and to deal with them. I'm still in favor of an improved circle, only because of the possession threat and because of what happened to Connor. Anyway, I'm not sure that the mages and the people of Thedas are ready for a real big change. The improvement of the mentality is desirable but it's going to take time, I think.

I'm a mage sympathiser and I'm sorry for them but if they really are so easily possessed by demons, then I think we must be sure they can keep their control before sending them into towns full of people.   

Theless, when I read what some pro-templar have to say, I'm less ans less encline to think templars are fit for the job. I'm open for alternatives, if they exist.

[dragonflight288]

MWImexico wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

jtav wrote...
The Circle consistently treats mages, not as people with an inherent dignity and special challenges and gifts, but as potential abominations. This is not good for psychological health--or for keeping them from turning into abominations.

That's really the core problem. I'd be open for a compromise solution as long as the dehumanizing stops. In matters unrelated to magic, mages need to be treated like any other humans. So no forced isolation, no constant surveillance by members of an enemy ideology, and full integration into the life of the community. Which level of surveillance is necessary within that scenario is a matter for debate, but those things need to go. It's really a matter of culture. The Andrastean Chantry is built on opposition to magic and mages. That's not a good ideological basis for fair treatment. 

I totally agree with you about the dehumanizing of the mages, people need to stop punish them for things they, as individual, are not responsible for. It is crucial to stop looking backward and begin to go forward.

Now there is still a big problem. I won't blame magic on itself, being capable of throwing fireballs is less dangerous than a prince determined to wipe out a city. Also we should relativise the power of the mages, after all, the cercle of Kirkwall can be erased with a bunch of templars guided by Hawk, blood magic involved or not, that is not that hard.

My true problem reside in the potential possession of the mages that can occur, if I'm not wrong, quite easily if they are not formed well or to weak to resist. I can be wrong about that subject, I admit my lack of knowledge. But if this is true, well, let's not forget about it.

Finaly, about the templars, the way they manage mages must be improved greatly or we should simply find another way to control the mages and to deal with them. I'm still in favor of an improved circle, only because of the possession threat and because of what happened to Connor. Anyway, I'm not sure that the mages and the people of Thedas are ready for a real big change. The improvement of the mentality is desirable but it's going to take time, I think.

I'm a mage sympathiser and I'm sorry for them but if they really are so easily possessed by demons, then I think we must be sure they can keep their control before sending them into towns full of people.   

Theless, when I read what some pro-templar have to say, I'm less ans less encline to think templars are fit for the job. I'm open for alternatives, if they exist.

From my understanding of the lore, everyone is in danger of possession of demons. What makes mages stand out from everyone else, is their ability to enter the Fade conscious and aware. It is my understanding that a mage is in the most danger of possession when they enter the Fade, such as the Harrowing, because the act of doing so draws the attention of demons wishing to enter Thedas. And when they are face to face with a spirit or demon, that is when they are in the absolute most danger of possession.

But when a demon breaks through the veil and enters Thedas, anyone, and anything, is in direct danger. We have seen possessed templars, not only in Act 1 of DA2, but also in origins in Broken Circle and during the rite of annulment in Kirkwall. We also see Lady Herriman become influenced by a desire demon in the questline Faith with Sebastian, and she uses blood magic despite it being made very clear that she wasn't a mage. The demon was able to grant her a magical equivalent.

We know from codex entries that people aren't the only ones in danger of possession. From the lore, we can extrapolate creatures created by demon. Werewolves are created when a spirit possesses a wolf and that wolf infects people. Sylvans are created when a spirit or demon possesses a tree. And shades are created by possessing nothing at all.

Unless mages enter the fade conscious, then are in as much danger of possession as the average person, like a templar, a farmer, a grand cleric or what have you.

In fact, the only ones who don't enter the Fade regularly to dream and sleep are the dwarves.

[BlueMagitek]

http://dragonage.wik...i/Lady_Harimann

What makes an abomination dangerous is that the magic of the mage and demon are combined, into Captain Fade, except not on the Fade, which means it goes down, yo. So a possessed person should be capable of using magic because the Demon can, not because the person can. Like Sophia Dryden.

[dragonflight288]

BlueMagitek wrote...

http://dragonage.wik...i/Lady_Harimann

What makes an abomination dangerous is that the magic of the mage and demon are combined, into Captain Fade, except not on the Fade, which means it goes down, yo. So a possessed person should be capable of using magic because the Demon can, not because the person can. Like Sophia Dryden.

Hmm. Lady Harimann's daughter in the game said it quite clearly that there is no magic in their family, and that there were no mages.

EDIT: So the wiki says she is a mage, the game says, from sebastian as well as the daughter that Lady Harimann is not a mage. So we have two sources giving contradictory information.

Modifié par dragonflight288, 25 juin 2013 - 12:57 .

[BlueMagitek]

Considering she was feeding her people to the jones of some Demon, maybe she was possessed and had access to magic that way yo.

[LobselVith8]

BlueMagitek wrote...

http://dragonage.wik...i/Lady_Harimann

What makes an abomination dangerous is that the magic of the mage and demon are combined, into Captain Fade, except not on the Fade, which means it goes down, yo. So a possessed person should be capable of using magic because the Demon can, not because the person can. Like Sophia Dryden.

Normally, but Kirkwall is a Tevinter Hellmouth.

[BlueMagitek]

First off yo, Kirkwall is in the Marshes. Secondly, Sophia Dryden was in Ferelden. Thirdly, I have no idea what you're on because your point has nothing to do with Demon + Host = powah.

[dragonflight288]

BlueMagitek wrote...

First off yo, Kirkwall is in the Marshes. Secondly, Sophia Dryden was in Ferelden. Thirdly, I have no idea what you're on because your point has nothing to do with Demon + Host = powah.

Which means that even if a templar gets possessed, that possessed templar has access to magic through the demon, and not through himself....technically.

[TEWR]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Considering she was feeding her people to the jones of some Demon, maybe she was possessed and had access to magic that way yo.

She wasn't possessed. This is clear in-game. She was ensorcelled, driven by her desires and only her desires.

If she was possessed, like all the other times Hawke has fought someone that was possessed, a Demon would've sprouted upon her death.

No such thing happened.

And she was most certainly not a mage.

[IceHawk-181]

Xilizhra wrote...

EntropicAngel wrote...

This isn't related to an argument in any way, but how do you feel history is designed to make you stupid, Xil?

Pre-college history education in the US has been, for a long time, utterly horrible in numerous ways. Ethnocentric, beholden to myth, beholden to political pressure from bodies that frequently swing conservatively, especially the idiotic traitor-worshiping neo-Confederates... the list goes on. Things have improved somewhat, but there's still a long way to go; there've been quite a few college history professors who saw their jobs as consisting largely of disabusing their students of what they'd been taught in high school.

As I am assumedly the only individual in this thread who has taught both Pre-College and College history and is a credentialed and practicing academic historian, allow me to simply state that this description is farcical at best.
 
The so-called "Conservative" strain of academic and Pre-College History did not survive the 1960s and was eradicated from nearly every college campus thanks to the efforts of the Social and Cultural historians of the subsequent two decades.
 
Find me an academic department that consists of more than two overtly Conservative PhDs outside of Catholic Colleges or Hillsdale and I will give you a cookie.
 
Furthermore, Pre-College History classes are dominated by individuals who overtly champion Statist political practices and express a narrative that I have heard some of my colleagues refer to as the Triumph of Progressivism.
 
Ok, back to your regularly scheduled exchange of people talking past one another.
 
 

[BlueMagitek]

dragonflight288 wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...

First off yo, Kirkwall is in the Marshes. Secondly, Sophia Dryden was in Ferelden. Thirdly, I have no idea what you're on because your point has nothing to do with Demon + Host = powah.

Which means that even if a templar gets possessed, that possessed templar has access to magic through the demon, and not through himself....technically.

That's what I'm saying.

--

TEWR, she was using blood magic.  Either the demon somehow granted her magic, she was posessed, everyone can use blood magic (which, if was possible, I'm sure would already be used by the Wardens), or she's a mage.  Stop hushing her magical buzz.