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[TEWR]

BlueMagitek wrote...

TEWR, she was using blood magic.  Either the demon somehow granted her magic,

That's it exactly. She was never a mage before the Demon came into her life. This is what Sebastian and Flora Harriman both state on the matter.

She kept saying she needed power. Given how magic is power, she was never a mage, and how she uses blood magic it's clear the Demon was able to bestow magic upon her.

[BlueMagitek]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...

TEWR, she was using blood magic.  Either the demon somehow granted her magic,

That's it exactly. She was never a mage before the Demon came into her life. This is what Sebastian and Flora Harriman both state on the matter.

She kept saying she needed power. Given how magic is power, she was never a mage, and how she uses blood magic it's clear the Demon was able to bestow magic upon her.

And yet this has only happened to one person ever?  Is it not more reasonable to assume that Allure was forcing some sort of demon into her, making her an abomination?  Something lower level like a Wisp Wraith would allow Allure to keep a hold on her without needing to worry about another demon getting in the way of her deals.

[TEWR]

BlueMagitek wrote...

And yet this has only happened to one person ever?

Allure was a very unique case. Trapped far beneath Kirkwall in catacombs where the Veil was thinner then above ground (and thus stronger for Demons because the connection to the Fade is closer), she was able to exert considerable influence over the Harriman family through Lady Harriman while maintaining a strong connection to the Fade still (because of the thin Veil) whereas most Demons tend to lose much of their power upon crossing the Veil and coming into being there.

That's my rationalization.

Is it not more reasonable to assume that Allure was forcing some sort of demon into her, making her an abomination?

No, it isn't. We've seen other cases of Demons controlling other people based on their desires. See the Circle Tower for a similar example, though the Veil was stronger there somewhat -- of course, the Demon freely chose to tie her life to his for curiosity's sake on the nature of mortality and love, so yeah.

[BlueMagitek]

That Templar didn't have magical abilities, which is what we're talking about.

I'm saying that, given what we know about demons and abominations (abominations combine the magical power of both hosts), it is more reasonable to assume that the woman was made some sort of abomination, rather than randomly being granted magic because.

[TEWR]

BlueMagitek wrote...

That Templar didn't have magical abilities, which is what we're talking about.

He already had magical abilities. DG once said that the Templar abilities do count as magic. I shall dig for the quote (it was in an interview, IIRC).

I'm saying that, given what we know about demons and abominations (abominations combine the magical power of both hosts), it is more reasonable to assume that the woman was made some sort of abomination, rather than randomly being granted magic because.

But as I said, if she was possessed by any sort of Demon we would've fought it like in every other time Demons had a possessed host (Evelina, Grace, etc.)

We do not.

[BlueMagitek]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

He already had magical abilities. DG once said that the Templar abilities do count as magic. I shall dig for the quote (it was in an interview, IIRC).

But as I said, if she was possessed by any sort of Demon we would've fought it like in every other time Demons had a possessed host (Evelina, Grace, etc.)

We do not.

He had Lyrium abilities.  We'll say that it is magical, alright.  But he displayed nothing that a normal Templar could not do.

Not if the demons were Wisps who had lost their power.

And I don't recall fighting a demon after every posession; recall Connor.  If you killed him, it was over.  The demon could take over, but he's still alive until you slit his throat.

[BlueMagitek]

Filament, given that we have a number of societies where magic is quite important (Dalish, Tevinter), don't you think we would have heard of something like that?

Or heck, if you can empower mages and non mages without possession, why wouldn't we have heard anything from the Wardens? Of all the people to need such power, it would be them, and they have no problem making sacrifices for it.

[BlueMagitek]

I don't think all of Thedas despises abomination. The Rivani, if I recall correctly, are fine with them.

You may be right, I just find the simpler explanation the better one.

[TEWR]

BlueMagitek wrote...

He had Lyrium abilities.  We'll say that it is magical, alright.  But he displayed nothing that a normal Templar could not do.

Not if the demons were Wisps who had lost their power.

Yet that presumes to understand the nature of possession regarding wisps, when unless a merging between a person and a Fade spirit is mutual there is no person left.

And a wisp would not be able to grant such magical powers. They have none to speak of, other then being balls of light that lead people to unsavory deaths. Beyond that, they cling tightly to a hatred of all living things (as opposed to Lady Harriman, whose desire rules her).

Plus, Allure says she exploited Lady Harriman's already existing desire for power.

And I don't recall fighting a demon after every posession; recall Connor.  If you killed him, it was over.  The demon could take over, but he's still alive until you slit his throat.

My point was that in every possession case, a Demon is fought. This includes Connor, because you fight the Demon itself.

[BlueMagitek]

TEWR you are late, I've already conceded the point to Fil.

Actually, can't you have Isolde kill Connor without fighting the demon? It's been a while.

[TEWR]

No, you have to fight the Demon first IIRC.

I don't think all of Thedas despises abomination. The Rivani, if I recall correctly, are fine with them.

They're fine with willing possession between a seer (mage) and a Fade Spirit, but the nature of the possession remains to be seen.

While technically they'd fall under the definition of Abomination -- Fade Spirit merged with Mage -- it seems that they are not in fact the same as Demonic Possession.

[BlueMagitek]

Fair enough.

But TEWR, there is no difference between Spirits and Demons. I thought you knew that. ~_^

[TEWR]

Certainly lol.

But the nature of their possession is different, insofar as to its immediate effects. All beings of the Fade are spirits, but the possession isn't the same. They're not wildly different either, however.

[BlueMagitek]

The Dalish don't discriminate between the two, and I believe Merrill says (or it was one of them, they're all the same really) that if a Keeper or First is possessed, regardless of what type of spirit, then the entire clan hunts them down and kills them.

[dragonflight288]

I'd add on that we don't know the nature of the of the possession itself. The seers themselves could be like Anders, fully in control of their own minds with a spirit of a certain virtue within them, offering advice or embodying that particular virtue for their society.

For all we know, (and there's no evidence to support this, just merely supposition), the Riviani could have a council of seers, each one possessed by differing virtues, Justice, Mercy, Valor, and so on, and when it comes to making decisions, each of the spirits give an opinion based on their extremities, and the political body can make their decisions based on what the Seers/Spirits suggest as solutions, maybe a combination of ideas.

Justice is swift, cold and hard, and is without mercy. Valor is about glory on the battlefield, so righteous fury and vengeance would work hand-in-hand there, but opposing virtue spirits may offer alternatives that the former spirits would never consider because it's not part of their nature.

Without more information, I cannot actually say how the Rivaini work. We only know that the seers allow themselves to be possessed, the non-mages violently opposed the Chantry as a cultural thing because the Chantry wanted to lock up all the seers in the Circle, and the book Asunder makes it clear that because some seers kept in contact with their families, a Seeker blabbed about it, and then the entire circle, down to the last man, woman and child, were killed. Not because of abominations, not because of blood magic, but because mages were in contact with their families.

That's all we truly know about the Rivaini.

[TEWR]

BlueMagitek wrote...

The Dalish don't discriminate between the two, and I believe Merrill says (or it was one of them, they're all the same really) that if a Keeper or First is possessed, regardless of what type of spirit, then the entire clan hunts them down and kills them.

That's the Dalish attitude -- and for future reference, the attitude the Circle actually mentors as a Circle Mage penned a codex saying that Demons and Spirits are all spirits of the Fade. We were talking about the Rivaini, who view the matter differently then other societies.

[LobselVith8]

BlueMagitek wrote...

First off yo, Kirkwall is in the Marshes. Secondly, Sophia Dryden was in Ferelden. Thirdly, I have no idea what you're on because your point has nothing to do with Demon + Host = powah.

Tevinter Hellmouth is merely a term used to describe the phenomenon described in the Enigma of Kirkwall codex, given the thin Veil and all. I figured it could factor into Lady Harriman + Allure = power.

[Ieldra]

BlueMagitek wrote...
The Dalish don't discriminate between the two, and I believe Merrill says (or it was one of them, they're all the same really) that if a Keeper or First is possessed, regardless of what type of spirit, then the entire clan hunts them down and kills them.

Merrill says that if a Keeper is possessed, the clan kills them, yes, but she doesn't say they don't discriminate between different types of spirits. As I see it, the term "possessed" already implies that the spirit is malevolent. We never speak of Wynne or Anders as possessed.  

[Ieldra]

Medhia Nox wrote...
You see - I have a conflicting attitude to many of DA's story convention. I find the Harrowing compelling... as well as Tranquility. Making both of them unnecessary just turns DA into an uninteresting generic fantasy world (or is another step toward one).

[...]Again - some of these things are as much interest in storytelling. I find Tranquility and the Harrowing thematically interesting - that Bioware seems to be heading toward a boring generic world of superhero mages might save me a few dollars in the future, but I'd miss the games. I've already got plenty of worlds with mages running around like superheroes - I don't need another.

They already are unnecessary in certain places. I don't believe they make anyone Tranquil in Rivain, they don't believe that interaction with spirits is necessarily bad, and they appear to have few problems with possessed people running amok. The necessity is a cultural construct, a conceit of the Chantry-dominated lands, and the annullment at Dairsmuid is an atrocity.

[GodWood]

Xilizhra wrote...
Pre-college history education in the US has been, for a long time, utterly horrible in numerous ways.

College history education is not that different really.

In my experience I've learned that if you're really interested in history it's best to simply ignore what the lecturers say and study it yourself. 

[Lotion Soronarr]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
That's it exactly. She was never a mage before the Demon came into her life. This is what Sebastian and Flora Harriman both state on the matter.

She kept saying she needed power. Given how magic is power, she was never a mage, and how she uses blood magic it's clear the Demon was able to bestow magic upon her.

Or she was alawys a mage, but kept that fact well hidden.

[Ieldra]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
That's it exactly. She was never a mage before the Demon came into her life. This is what Sebastian and Flora Harriman both state on the matter.

She kept saying she needed power. Given how magic is power, she was never a mage, and how she uses blood magic it's clear the Demon was able to bestow magic upon her.

Or she was alawys a mage, but kept that fact well hidden.

Hidden even from her family? That's a supposition I wouldn't put forward without evidence. We know demons can possess non-mages  - they can even "possess" dead bodies - and we know that demons can bestow blood magic. 

[Ieldra]

At this point, I'd like to draw attention to the templars' institutionalized atrocity: the Right of Annullment.

I wonder if Bioware really understands why most people sided with the mages in DAO and DA2 as well. It's not because they don't acknowledge that mages are dangerous. It's because of Annullment. Annullment means that a whole of group a people is killed for the crimes of a few. Apart from the fundamental injustice of such an action, in DAO we have the alternative to save the circle while doing no damage to the templars. So anyone acting on the principle of "least harm done" would naturally tend to side with the mages. Things don't change significantly in DA2 because while more mages become possessed there, there are *still* a great number of innocent mages in the Circle - as evidenced by those who don't turn into abominations even while the templars cut them down - and so the scenario is definitely not balanced. If you kill the mages, you're killing innocents, and if you kill templars, you kill those who would otherwise kill innocents. People will naturally tend towards siding with the mages at this point, even they were on the templars' side earlier in the story.

Annullment is an atrocity, and after the Annulment at Dairsmuid the templars can't pretend it's done for protection any more, for the non-mage Rivaini were perfectly comfortable with the way things went there and apparently were in no danger at all. This event makes it abundantly clear what the Right of Annullment is: the templars reserve the right of genocide.