1656 réponses à ce sujet

[Silfren]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...

TEWR, she was using blood magic.  Either the demon somehow granted her magic,

That's it exactly. She was never a mage before the Demon came into her life. This is what Sebastian and Flora Harriman both state on the matter.

She kept saying she needed power. Given how magic is power, she was never a mage, and how she uses blood magic it's clear the Demon was able to bestow magic upon her.

I wonder if any of this is to be taken as a hint, same as Sandal's prophecy about the magic returning.  Does everyone actually have the potential to be a mage, and it just needs to be awakened?

[dragonflight288]

Silfren wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...

TEWR, she was using blood magic.  Either the demon somehow granted her magic,

That's it exactly. She was never a mage before the Demon came into her life. This is what Sebastian and Flora Harriman both state on the matter.

She kept saying she needed power. Given how magic is power, she was never a mage, and how she uses blood magic it's clear the Demon was able to bestow magic upon her.

I wonder if any of this is to be taken as a hint, same as Sandal's prophecy about the magic returning.  Does everyone actually have the potential to be a mage, and it just needs to be awakened?

It is completely possible. I mean, everyone except dwarves have a connection to the Fade and go there every night when they dream. The only thing setting mages apart is their ability to go into the Fade concious and their ability to tap into the Fade for power. If the veil is weakened, through a connection with a demon, or heck, even if what happened in the trailer with what looked like the veil being sundered, it's quite possible everyone may show signs of magic sensitivity, and everyone may end up being mages as well, meaning everyone, mages and templars alike, would be on equal footing for the very first time.

If that happened, the templars by virtue of their own dogma, would be required to lock themselves up and tranquilize themselves should they show signs of corruption or weakness, and they won't need to ask for permission to do it to themselves.

[Silfren]

Ieldra2 wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...
The Dalish don't discriminate between the two, and I believe Merrill says (or it was one of them, they're all the same really) that if a Keeper or First is possessed, regardless of what type of spirit, then the entire clan hunts them down and kills them.

Merrill says that if a Keeper is possessed, the clan kills them, yes, but she doesn't say they don't discriminate between different types of spirits. As I see it, the term "possessed" already implies that the spirit is malevolent. We never speak of Wynne or Anders as possessed.  

This is stretching it.  Wynne and Anders ARE possessed, and I'm fairly sure the word is used for both of them.  We see that the templars and the Chantry tend to assumed that possession only and always ever means "abomination," but possessed itself is a totally neutral term.  Really, how could you not say that Wynne or Anders were possessed?  They have spirits residing within their bodies, so if not possession, what else is it?

It's worth pointing out that possession isn't immediately recognizable without visible characteristics.  The people you'd expect to be able to sense it--templars--don't notice that there is something going on with either Wynne or Anders.  So the Dalish wouldn't necessarily know if their Keeper was possessed.  What seems to be the case is that people tend not to recognize that possession has taken place if the person has not been twisted into a featureless blob, and when that happens they're facing an active, obvious threat.  So it's just that it's the more obvious cases of possession that get noticed and remembered, not that only demon possession is considered possession at all.

[Ieldra]

Silfren wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...
The Dalish don't discriminate between the two, and I believe Merrill says (or it was one of them, they're all the same really) that if a Keeper or First is possessed, regardless of what type of spirit, then the entire clan hunts them down and kills them.

Merrill says that if a Keeper is possessed, the clan kills them, yes, but she doesn't say they don't discriminate between different types of spirits. As I see it, the term "possessed" already implies that the spirit is malevolent. We never speak of Wynne or Anders as possessed.  

This is stretching it.  Wynne and Anders ARE possessed, and I'm fairly sure the word is used for both of them.  We see that the templars and the Chantry tend to assumed that possession only and always ever means "abomination," but possessed itself is a totally neutral term.  Really, how could you not say that Wynne or Anders were possessed?  They have spirits residing within their bodies, so if not possession, what else is it?

I associate the term "possession" with spirits (or other entities foreign to the host) controlling a person against their will. After checking the wiki, though, I admit that it's mostly used in a more general sense in DA.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 25 juin 2013 - 02:26 .

[IceHawk-181]

GodWood wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
Pre-college history education in the US has been, for a long time, utterly horrible in numerous ways.

College history education is not that different really.

In my experience I've learned that if you're really interested in history it's best to simply ignore what the lecturers say and study it yourself. 

 

Which archives do you frequent?

Kids these days....

[Reaverwind]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Silfren wrote...

I wonder if any of this is to be taken as a hint, same as Sandal's prophecy about the magic returning.  Does everyone actually have the potential to be a mage, and it just needs to be awakened?

It is completely possible. I mean, everyone except dwarves have a connection to the Fade and go there every night when they dream. The only thing setting mages apart is their ability to go into the Fade concious and their ability to tap into the Fade for power. If the veil is weakened, through a connection with a demon, or heck, even if what happened in the trailer with what looked like the veil being sundered, it's quite possible everyone may show signs of magic sensitivity, and everyone may end up being mages as well, meaning everyone, mages and templars alike, would be on equal footing for the very first time.

If that happened, the templars by virtue of their own dogma, would be required to lock themselves up and tranquilize themselves should they show signs of corruption or weakness, and they won't need to ask for permission to do it to themselves.

Now, I really hope something like this happens in DA:I. That would certainly throw a monkey wrench into the works, and make the game a lot more interesting. 

[Ieldra]

Reaverwind wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

Silfren wrote...

I wonder if any of this is to be taken as a hint, same as Sandal's prophecy about the magic returning.  Does everyone actually have the potential to be a mage, and it just needs to be awakened?

It is completely possible. I mean, everyone except dwarves have a connection to the Fade and go there every night when they dream. The only thing setting mages apart is their ability to go into the Fade concious and their ability to tap into the Fade for power. If the veil is weakened, through a connection with a demon, or heck, even if what happened in the trailer with what looked like the veil being sundered, it's quite possible everyone may show signs of magic sensitivity, and everyone may end up being mages as well, meaning everyone, mages and templars alike, would be on equal footing for the very first time.

If that happened, the templars by virtue of their own dogma, would be required to lock themselves up and tranquilize themselves should they show signs of corruption or weakness, and they won't need to ask for permission to do it to themselves.

Now, I really hope something like this happens in DA:I. That would certainly throw a monkey wrench into the works, and make the game a lot more interesting. 

This was my first thought when I saw the tear in the Fade in the trailer, and it's what I allude to in the manifesto when I say the coming events will affect how everyone relates to the Fade, mage and non-mage alike. Also, if the Fade is where dreams take shape, and there is a tear in it, then people's dreams may manifest in material reality. Not sure if the DA team is prepared to handle such a twist since it has big worldbuilding repercussions, but it would certainly make the world a lot more interesting.

[MisterJB]

Ieldra2 wrote...
but it would certainly make the world a lot more interesting.

Try "completely destroy it".
The beauty of this conflict is that there is no perfect answer. Making everyone a mage would just be the worst cop out possible.

[Ieldra]

MisterJB wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
but it would certainly make the world a lot more interesting.

Try "completely destroy it".
The beauty of this conflict is that there is no perfect answer. Making everyone a mage would just be the worst cop out possible.

When did I say that this would be the perfect solution? There would widespread chaos for some time. All I said was that it would be an interesting development.

[lil yonce]

MisterJB wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
but it would certainly make the world a lot more interesting.

Try "completely destroy it".
The beauty of this conflict is that there is no perfect answer. Making everyone a mage would just be the worst cop out possible.

I agree with this.

[MisterJB]

Ieldra2 wrote...
When did I say that this would be the perfect solution? There would widespread chaos for some time. All I said was that it would be an interesting development.

I did not say that you said but it's obvious that it would be marketed as "the answer" to the problem; mages and non-mages can't get along so make everyone a mage/non-mage, it's a cop-out that not even the silyness that is Star Wars would try.
There's plenty of interesting places in Thedas that we have never even seen for the entire setting to be changed in such a profound way.

[Baelyn]

Double post

Modifié par Baelyn, 25 juin 2013 - 04:56 .

[Baelyn]

MisterJB wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
but it would certainly make the world a lot more interesting.

Try "completely destroy it".
The beauty of this conflict is that there is no perfect answer. Making everyone a mage would just be the worst cop out possible.

Modifié par Baelyn, 25 juin 2013 - 04:56 .

[Plaintiff]

I will laugh and laugh and laugh if DA:I ends with the "return of magic" and everybody being made a mage. I can just imagine the apoplectic rage that will ensue from the pro-Templar side.

With all the talk in the comics about a "time before the Veil", I think there's every possibility that DA:I will pull a Golden Sun.

[TK514]

Plaintiff wrote...

I will laugh and laugh and laugh if DA:I ends with the "return of magic" and everybody being made a mage. I can just imagine the apoplectic rage that will ensue from the pro-Templar side.

How mature.

[lil yonce]

"It is the fanatical beliefs of Grand Enchanter Fiona that threaten the tranquility of the Circle. She is the real enemy of liberty."
Is that good enough? 

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 25 juin 2013 - 05:10 .

[MisterJB]

Ieldra2 wrote...
and so the scenario is definitely not balanced. If you kill the mages, you're killing innocents, and if you kill templars, you kill those who would otherwise kill innocents. People will naturally tend towards siding with the mages at this point, even they were on the templars' side earlier in the story.

Please, allow me to direct you to a thread I made on the subject of Meredit's Annulment in particular, not the Right in general. I think I made a pretty good case as to why one should support the templars to save the greater number of lifes.
http://social.biowar...ndex/16428346/1

and after the Annulment at Dairsmuid the templars can't pretend it's done for protection any more, for the non-mage Rivaini were perfectly comfortable with the way things went there and apparently were in no danger at all.

Cultures are hardly perfect guidelines on how  to live.
Just because the rivains have no problem with it, it doesn't mean spirits, regardless of nature, aren't dangerous or that the templars should just have left possessed mages alone.

[lil yonce]

MisterJB wrote...

Please, allow me to direct you to a thread I made on the subject of Meredit's Annulment in particular, not the Right in general. I think I made a pretty good case as to why one should support the templars to save the greater number of lifes.
http://social.biowar...ndex/16428346/1

Meredith receives too much flack IMO. I think we must judge her by the alternative and not by the almighty or some rose-colored ideal.

[RepHope]

MisterJB wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
but it would certainly make the world a lot more interesting.

Try "completely destroy it".
The beauty of this conflict is that there is no perfect answer. Making everyone a mage would just be the worst cop out possible.

Synthesis 2.0 as if Mass Effects ending didn't ruin enough now it's spreading.
I might have to decline the DR just to make sure there are no more Godchilds

[Ieldra]

MisterJB wrote...
Cultures are hardly perfect guidelines on how  to live.
Just because the rivains have no problem with it, it doesn't mean spirits, regardless of nature, aren't dangerous or that the templars should just have left possessed mages alone.

Are you serious? All right, I'm afraid you are, but consider:

The Rivaini lived as they wanted and no harm was done to anyone by it. Non-mages and mages alike were ok with the state of things, there was no widespread chaos. Within the constraints of what life usually is like, people were happy. And you're telling me that the templars, this is fanatical anti-mage organization whose members are recruited for religious fervor, was *justified* in killing them all? The Annulment of Dairsmuid was an unprovoked act of genocide, so far beyond justification that it serves as an example of the saying that those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities (I think Voltaire said that).

I've usually defended pro-Templars from the accusation of being crazy fanatics, but it seems the people who said that were right at least sometimes.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 25 juin 2013 - 05:23 .

[RepHope]

DA2 had a pretty clear pro-Mage bent and little effort was put into the Templar side of things which was one of the many flaws of the game IMO. Magic is dangerous and we can't treat mages like normal humans/elves because they AREN'T normal not only because of their power but also because demons can posses them.

If I recall didn't Asunder say that you don't even have to be conscious of an agreement with demons for an agreement to take place?

[Plaintiff]

TK514 wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

I will laugh and laugh and laugh if DA:I ends with the "return of magic" and everybody being made a mage. I can just imagine the apoplectic rage that will ensue from the pro-Templar side.

How mature.

Oh dry up. All I said was that it will amuse me, I didn't say it would be a well-written ending. But at least it doesn't strip an entire class option from all future DA games.

I'm amused by fan rage in general. The hatred for the ME3 endings amuses me too. Especially the hate for Synthesis.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 25 juin 2013 - 05:24 .

[RepHope]

Ieldra2 wrote...

MisterJB wrote...
Cultures are hardly perfect guidelines on how  to live.
Just because the rivains have no problem with it, it doesn't mean spirits, regardless of nature, aren't dangerous or that the templars should just have left possessed mages alone.

Are you serious? All right, I'm afraid you are, but consider:

The Rivaini lived as they wanted and no harm was done to anyone by it. Non-mages and mages alike were ok with the state of things, there was no widespread chaos. Within the constraints of what life usually is like, people were happy. And you're telling me that the templars, this is fanatical anti-mage organization whose members are recruited for religious fervor, was *justified* in killing them all?

I've usually defended pro-Templars from the accusation of being crazy fanatics, but it seems they were right.

Where was it stated that nothing bad ever happened or that all were happy with the arrangement?

Modifié par RepHope, 25 juin 2013 - 05:23 .