1656 réponses à ce sujet

[IceHawk-181]

Seriously, think about it.

What would need to be done to you to convince you the only way for you to survive is to sacrifice your capacity for Joy, Love, Happiness etc for the rest of your days?

To sacrifice all that makes you the individual that you are?

Short of saving my family from imminent danger I cannot think of anything that could push me to essentially commit suicide...

[IceHawk-181]

Plaintiff wrote...
Either Lambert is a deliberate warmonger, or he's the biggest freaking idiot to blight Thedas to date. And that's saying something in a universe that contains Loghain.

Ok, that got a chuckle.

 

[Plaintiff]

Medhia Nox wrote...
@Plaintiff: Yet, you say constantly that the mages OF COURSE act the way they do because they were provoked.

No, the mages act the way they do because:

a) They are trying to defend themselves from rape/physical abuse/tranquility/murder/capture/etc

They have literally been driven insane

c) They are legitimately awful people

The first two are far more common.

[MisterJB]

Plaintiff wrote...
Of course they knew what the result would be. That is utterly irrelevent. Knowing the Templars would be dicks about it does not make them culpable for the Templars being dicks. The Templars, and only the Templars, are to blame for their own complete dickery.

If I flee from an abusive partner, knowing that they will pursue me and "punish" me with violence, this does not make me culpable in the violence visited upon me.

If the mages knew what the result would be then they are to blame for taking a course of action that would lead to it. Actions do not occur in a vaccum and the mages chose the one that would lead to conflict over more peaceful ones.
And no, the mages are not poor opressed people. They dangerous men and women carrying weapons of mass destruction that have killed and opressed people many times in history. There's plenty of reason to not just allow them to roam free as you expect the templars to do.

Jimmy knows that the trial is a complete sham and that the witness is in the pocket of his enemies. The justice system has absolutely failed him and he has every right to take any actions necessary to preserve his own life and freedom, up to and including the murder of those trying to frame him.

By your logic, the police and the people trying to frame Jimmy only have themselves to blame if Jimmy murders them, because they provoked it by trying to take away his freedom unjustly.

You show unwilligness to trust the opposition and then act surprise if they answer in kind.
Perhaps Jimmy should realize there is good reason to believe he is dangerous and actually attempt to not prove the people acusing him right.

Adrian killed a man who wanted to die. That is not a wrong action.

The ongoing debate around euthanasia proves that is not a universally accepted point of view.

She framed Rhys for the deed, which is a wrong action. But only Rhys has the right to be mad about that, because it only affects him.

Except if this framing serves a political purpose in which case everyone killed by this war has the right to be mad about it.

You keep carrying on about how the mages are to blame for "provoking" the Templars, but completely ignore every single instance where Lambert provoked the mages. You paint him as some sort of tragic peacekeeper when he clearly ****ing wasn't.

You know what a man trying to keep the peace does? He doesn't try suppress or destroy important scientific research that is being done to foster goodwill between the two negotiating factions, and he doesn't barge into an international mage summit when tensions are already high, just to arrest one person. If he was genuinely interested in preventing war, it could have ****ing waited.

Either Lambert is a deliberate warmonger, or he's the biggest freaking idiot to blight Thedas to date. And that's saying something in a universe that contains Loghain.

Oh, I do not deny that barging into the conclave was a terrible move; which is why I don't support it in the sligthest; but if you actually believe that research would foster goodwill, you're fooling yourself. It would just become yet another source of friction.
People like Adrian would demand all Tranquil be restored regardless of the reasons why they were made Tranquil in the first place and of how prone to possession a restored mage is. The templars would oppose it based the previously mentioned reasons.

Lamberty is partially to blame for this war, certainly. But so are the mages which is what we have been arguing about.
Fiona should not have taken advantage of Justinia and Wynne's efforts and hijacked the conclave. Adrian should not have killed Pharamond and framed Rhys. Lambert should not have barged in. Justinia should not have helped the mages escape. Rhys should not have voted to fight.
All of these people bear some responsability.

[Ieldra]

MisterJB wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...
Of course they knew what the result would be. That is utterly irrelevent. Knowing the Templars would be dicks about it does not make them culpable for the Templars being dicks. The Templars, and only the Templars, are to blame for their own complete dickery.

If I flee from an abusive partner, knowing that they will pursue me and "punish" me with violence, this does not make me culpable in the violence visited upon me.

If the mages knew what the result would be then they are to blame for taking a course of action that would lead to it. Actions do not occur in a vaccum and the mages chose the one that would lead to conflict over more peaceful ones.

Little note about human law and ethics: we are never considered responsible for another's actions, only our own. If you attack someone, the best you can hope for on the grounds of being provoked are mitigating circumstances, but you are considered the responsible party.

The mages declare they will separate from the Chantry. The templars attack. Ergo: the templars are responsible for any violence. It is actually very, very simple. Everything else leads to blaming the victim.

Edit:
And before you mentioned Anders: yes, he was the primary responsible party for what happened in Kirkwall. But that's an unrelated issue because he got his punishment if you killed him (which I usually do). That matter was resolved as far as law and ethics are concerned. Everything else is political.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 27 juin 2013 - 06:06 .

[MisterJB]

Ieldra2 wrote...
Little note about human law and ethics: we are never considered responsible for another's actions, only our own. If you attack someone, the best you can hope for on the grounds of being provoked are mitigating circumstances, but you are considered the responsible party.

The mages declare they will separate from the Chantry. The templars attack. Ergo: the templars are responsible for any violence. It is actually very, very simple. Everything else leads to blaming the victim.

Military campaigns based on prevention due to the opposition taking actions that are deemed threatening are well documented in human history such as, for instance, the Cuban missile crisis.
The mages took measures that were considered a threat to the interests of the templars; those interests being the protection of the non-mages from the mages; and they thus decided on a military campaign meant to prevent future magical abuses.
Morally speaking, the mages also bear the blame for taking such a threatening stance.

[MWImexico]

IceHawk-181 wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...
Either Lambert is a deliberate warmonger, or he's the biggest freaking idiot to blight Thedas to date. And that's saying something in a universe that contains Loghain.

Ok, that got a chuckle.

 

Same here

[Plaintiff]

MisterJB wrote...
If the mages knew what the result would be then they are to blame for taking a course of action that would lead to it.

Here we go again with the victim blaming. Are we also claiming that mages are culpable in their own rape, for wearing those ****ty robes that show off their neck and wrist flesh?

Actions do not occur in a vaccum and the mages chose the one that would lead to conflict over more peaceful ones.

Kowtowing to Lambert would not have resulted in "peace" by any stretch of the term. War was not an inevitable result of their secession from the Chantry. That they could guess how Lambert would react does not make them responsible for his actions.

And no, the mages are not poor opressed people.

They certainly are.

They dangerous men and women carrying weapons of mass destruction that have killed and opressed people many times in history.

Being dangerous does not make them less oppressed. Abusing a lion is not a lesser crime than abusing a puppy.

And speaking generally, the mages that are being forced to defend themselves now have not oppressed anybody.

There's plenty of reason to not just allow them to roam free as you expect the templars to do.

I don't expect the Templars to do anything except die.

You show unwilligness to trust the opposition and then act surprise if they answer in kind.

The opposition have proven they can't be trusted. By failing to apprehend the guilty party, they've already failed. Why should they be entitled to a second chance? Jimmy doesn't get one.

Perhaps Jimmy should realize there is good reason to believe he is dangerous and actually attempt to not prove the people acusing him right.

No, that's retarded. Jimmy's first and foremost concern should be to stay free and alive.

The ongoing debate around euthanasia proves that is not a universally accepted point of view.

It's not a universally accepted view that the Earth is round, but one side is clearly wrong and should shut up.

Except if this framing serves a political purpose in which case everyone killed by this war has the right to be mad about it.

If Adrian had pinned the blame on anyone else, or even left a trail that clearly pointed towards herself, the war would've gone on regardless.

Oh, I do not deny that barging into the conclave was a terrible move; which is why I don't support it in the sligthest; but if you actually believe that research would foster goodwill, you're fooling yourself. It would just become yet another source of friction.

Hiding it is still an inexcusable action, any action done in service to the preservation of the unconscienable status quo is inexcusable, regardless of actual outcome. I welcome the war, and that Lambert had a direct hand in instigating it despite his vile intentions to the contrary only makes me laugh.

[IceHawk-181]

So no one has agency?

The Templars made a choice.

Nothing about the Mage's declaring independence required the Templar's to launch a crusade. Was it one of the possible outcomes? Absolutely. Was it the only logical or possible outcome? Absolutely not.

MisterJB the Mages can only be culpable in the violence of the Templar's launching the war if their actions knowingly forced conflict as the only possible solution.

The Templars were free to choose coexistence.

They did not.

You are arguing that the Templars are justified in the actions they took while ignoring their individual agency in selecting the action.

Modifié par IceHawk-181, 27 juin 2013 - 06:37 .

[Dabrikishaw]

Plaintiff wrote...

I will laugh and laugh and laugh if DA:I ends with the "return of magic" and everybody being made a mage. I can just imagine the apoplectic rage that will ensue from the pro-Templar side.

With all the talk in the comics about a "time before the Veil", I think there's every possibility that DA:I will pull a Golden Sun.

I share this notion, but by the same token a "The Magic Goes Away" ending would be nice to  have as well.

[MisterJB]

Plaintiff wrote...
Here we go again with the victim blaming. Are we also claiming that mages are culpable in their own rape, for wearing those ****ty robes that show off their neck and wrist flesh?

Wearing robes? Changing a way of life that has existed for hundreads of years.
They're probrably the same thing, right?

Kowtowing to Lambert would not have resulted in "peace" by any stretch of the term. War was not an inevitable result of their secession from the Chantry. That they could guess how Lambert would react does not make them responsible for his actions.

If the mages had actually bothered to argue for an outcome favorable to them that would also please Justinia, Lambert would have been forced to accept it.
That they didn't even consider it only proved there are plenty of warmongering mages.

Being dangerous does not make them less oppressed. Abusing a lion is not a lesser crime than abusing a puppy.

Except the fact lions are quite more dangerous than dogs means laws apply very differently to both of them. As they should apply differently to mages and non-mages.

And speaking generally, the mages that are being forced to defend themselves now have not oppressed anybody.

Because the Chantry and Templars exist and have stopped them so far.

I don't expect the Templars to do anything except die.

And we are the radical ones.

The opposition have proven they can't be trusted. By failing to apprehend the guilty party, they've already failed. Why should they be entitled to a second chance? Jimmy doesn't get one.

He's been given an opportunity to defend himself within the law and without endangering third parties. Maybe he should use it.

No, that's retarded. Jimmy's first and foremost concern should be to stay free and alive.

You hear that, folks? If your freedom or lives are threatened, you are entitled to do whatever you want to anybody you wish.
Screw the law.

It's not a universally accepted view that the Earth is round, but one side is clearly wrong and should shut up.

Ok, guys. No more arguing over euthanasia. Plaintiff says it's right so it must be.

If Adrian had pinned the blame on anyone else, or even left a trail that clearly pointed towards herself, the war would've gone on regardless.

Lambert wouldn't have interrupted the meeting and Wynne would have convinced the mages to vote against secession.

Hiding it is still an inexcusable action, any action done in service to the preservation of the unconscienable status quo is inexcusable, regardless of actual outcome. I welcome the war, and that Lambert had a direct hand in instigating it despite his vile intentions to the contrary only makes me laugh.

Well, considering you once admitted to being a Social Darwinist Mage Supremacist, I really shouldn't be surprised.
"Regardless of the actual outcome" There are so many ways this could end that are much worse than the status quo that existed before.

Modifié par MisterJB, 27 juin 2013 - 06:54 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

IceHawk-181 wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
The Rite of Tranquility is viewed as a mercy

PFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFT

By who?

By the individuals who advocate it, so they can better deal with the fact that they just psychologically raped an individual and effectively killed their humanity.
 

Yes! A rampaging Abomination is vastly preferable to a single person losing his emotions. You are surely a big picture kind of guy!
If the only likely future for the apprentice is to end up possessed, then Tranquility is preferable for all involved.

[Silfren]

MisterJB wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...
Of course they knew what the result would be. That is utterly irrelevent. Knowing the Templars would be dicks about it does not make them culpable for the Templars being dicks. The Templars, and only the Templars, are to blame for their own complete dickery.

If I flee from an abusive partner, knowing that they will pursue me and "punish" me with violence, this does not make me culpable in the violence visited upon me.

If the mages knew what the result would be then they are to blame for taking a course of action that would lead to it.

Plaintiff already made the point, but I'll re-iterate it:

Women who have lived with partners who back up regular death threats with extreme violence...these women KNOW, beyond any doubt, that when they leave their partner is going to be provoked to a killing rage. 

By your logic just now, if their abuser catches up with them and attempts to kill them, those women are to blame.

I am in no way trying to derail the topic, but this is PRECISELY your logic, that a victim who tries to escape someone who they know will respond to the escape attempt with violence and even attempted murder, is to blame for it, and so therefore they shouldn't try to escape at all.

[Silfren]

Dabrikishaw wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

I will laugh and laugh and laugh if DA:I ends with the "return of magic" and everybody being made a mage. I can just imagine the apoplectic rage that will ensue from the pro-Templar side.

With all the talk in the comics about a "time before the Veil", I think there's every possibility that DA:I will pull a Golden Sun.

I share this notion, but by the same token a "The Magic Goes Away" ending would be nice to  have as well.

Eh.  Between "magic goes away" and "everyone gains magic" the latter is a more interesting option, as it has greater potential for conflict, and it's conflict, not peace and light and rainbows, that makes for interesting story in the first place.

[MisterJB]

Silfren wrote...
Plaintiff already made the point, but I'll re-iterate it:

Women who have lived with partners who back up regular death threats with extreme violence...these women KNOW, beyond any doubt, that when they leave their partner is going to be provoked to a killing rage. 

By your logic just now, if their abuser catches up with them and attempts to kill them, those women are to blame.

I am in no way trying to derail the topic, but this is PRECISELY your logic, that a victim who tries to escape someone who they know will respond to the escape attempt with violence and even attempted murder, is to blame for it, and so therefore they shouldn't try to escape at all.

Maybe we should analyze each case to see whether or not such logic applies because, after all, what is applicable in on situation is not on the other.
These women are no different from any other women and their actions have no real consequence to anyone but their abusives partners who lost their right to be; morally speaking; taken into account when they began to abuse their spouses. Likewise, these women and men are singular individuals each and can, thus, account only for themselves.

Is this a perfect allegory for the mage situation? No because:
1- Mages are dangerous. This fact is never going to change and it should be taken into account. Therefore, while the abuse of a woman for...I'm not really sure why husbands abuse their wives but regardless of reason, it's not justifiable, the abuse of mages; and by this I mean isolating them not beating them; might just be preferable to having nuclear devices walking around Thedas unguarded.

2-Mages and Templars don't share an hive mind meaning that many people on both sides are being forced to fight a war they don't want to.

3-If the abused pursues these women, they risk only themselves and/or the people sheltering them. Now, I'm not saying this makes it an acceptable action but it's small compared to having a war the likes of which Thedas has not seen since Andraste walked its soil that will affect innocent people who have nothing to do with it. In such a case, mages can be censured for not trying harder to prevent this war.

[Ieldra]

MisterJB wrote...
3-If the abused pursues these women, they risk only themselves and/or the people sheltering them. Now, I'm not saying this makes it an acceptable action but it's small compared to having a war the likes of which Thedas has not seen since Andraste walked its soil that will affect innocent people who have nothing to do with it. In such a case, mages can be censured for not trying harder to prevent this war.

Oppressive ideologies usually don't back down without a war. Does that mean their victims shouldn't try to change things? You're STILL blaming the victim, nothing you say can make that acceptable.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 27 juin 2013 - 07:43 .

[MisterJB]

Ieldra2 wrote...
Oppressive ideologies usually don't back down without a war. Does that mean their victims shouldn't try to change things? You're STILL blaming the victim, nothing you say can make that acceptable.

That assumes that mages are victims in this or that the current ideology should "back down". I don't accept either. I'm blaming the people who helped start a war that affects the majority in order to improve their already privileged lives.
Wynne was on the right path to extablish better connections between the Chantry and the Circle. The mages should have listened to her.

Modifié par MisterJB, 27 juin 2013 - 07:47 .

[MWImexico]

MisterJB wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
Oppressive ideologies usually don't back down without a war. Does that mean their victims shouldn't try to change things? You're STILL blaming the victim, nothing you say can make that acceptable.

That assumes that mages are victims in this or that the current ideology should "back down". I don't accept either. I'm blaming the people who helped start a war that affects the majority in order to improve their already privileged lives.
Wynne was on the right path to extablish better connections between the Chantry and the Circle. The mages should have listened to her.

Ah, those mages. Give them a finger and they'll take the arm.

[Ieldra]

MisterJB wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
Oppressive ideologies usually don't back down without a war. Does that mean their victims shouldn't try to change things? You're STILL blaming the victim, nothing you say can make that acceptable.

That assumes that mages are victims in this or that the current ideology should "back down". I don't accept either. I'm blaming the people who helped start a war that affects the majority in order to improve their already privileged lives.
Wynne was on the right path to extablish better connections between the Chantry and the Circle. The mages should have listened to her.

Should I re-post the list in my OP to underscore that mages are indeed victims in this?

The Templars set up the whole oppressive system in the first place. If the mages started to attack them, then they would be responsible for the violence. But they don't. They just want to go their separate ways.

Bah, why am I even replying to you. Debating is no use where dogma reigns.

[Plaintiff]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Yes! A rampaging Abomination is vastly preferable to a single person losing his emotions. You are surely a big picture kind of guy!
If the only likely future for the apprentice is to end up possessed, then Tranquility is preferable for all involved.

I'm thinking not for the apprentice.

If one course of action definitely strips me of all my defining traits, effectively murdering me, and the second only maybe does that, I know what I'm doing.

[Ieldra]

MisterJB wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
Little note about human law and ethics: we are never considered responsible for another's actions, only our own. If you attack someone, the best you can hope for on the grounds of being provoked are mitigating circumstances, but you are considered the responsible party.

The mages declare they will separate from the Chantry. The templars attack. Ergo: the templars are responsible for any violence. It is actually very, very simple. Everything else leads to blaming the victim.

Military campaigns based on prevention due to the opposition taking actions that are deemed threatening are well documented in human history such as, for instance, the Cuban missile crisis.
The mages took measures that were considered a threat to the interests of the templars; those interests being the protection of the non-mages from the mages; and they thus decided on a military campaign meant to prevent future magical abuses.
Morally speaking, the mages also bear the blame for taking such a threatening stance.

Except that the mages didn't take a threatening stance. They just want to be left alone. Of course for the bullies and control freaks and totalitarian governments of every world, this constitutes a threat. The typical "If we don't control it, we'll destroy it" mindset.

The templars are the only ones who take a threatening stance in this conflict. "Try to do what we don't want and we'll kill you". Right. The example with the bully or the one with the abused wife still applies.

Also, material wellbeing does not balance the lack of human rights.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 27 juin 2013 - 08:32 .

[Fredward]

MisterJB wrote...
That assumes that mages are victims in this or that the current ideology should "back down". I don't accept either. I'm blaming the people who helped start a war that affects the majority in order to improve their already privileged lives.
Wynne was on the right path to extablish better connections between the Chantry and the Circle. The mages should have listened to her.

Mages are the victims in this situation. Whichever way you try and cut it. The vast majority of them have done absolutely nothing to warrant their situation, they are being punished for being. I get that religions like to use ancient history to justify their bigotry and intolerance but claiming that the vast majority of mages have actually done something to warrant punishment is just ludicrous.

A gilded cage is still a cage. Not that the towers are really all that gilded but w/e.

[MisterJB]

Ieldra2 wrote...
Should I re-post the list in my OP to underscore that mages are indeed victims in this?

"This" being the war. One they knowingly chose to take part of in order to achieve their goals much like the templars. Neither are victims, the common people of Thedas are though.

The Templars set up the whole oppressive system in the first place. If the mages started to attack them, then they would be responsible for the violence. But they don't. They just want to go their separate ways.

A system that was extablished in response to a need for protection, a need to restrict those capable of killing others with their mind without even meaning and whom, historically, had brought much harm and opression to those weaker than them.

Bah, why am I even replying to you. Debating is no use where dogma reigns.

We all have biases. But given your previous claim that nothing I can say will make it sound more acceptable, the accusation can also be laid at your doorstep.

Ieldra2 wrote...
Except that the mages didn't take a threatening stance. They just want to be left alone. Of course for the
bullies and control freaks and totalitarian governments of every world, this constitutes a threat. The typical "If we don't control it, we'll destroy it" mindset.

The templars are the only ones who take a threatening stance in this conflict. "Try to do what we don't want and
we'll kill you". Right. The example with the bully or the one with the abused wife still applies.

When they have the ability to destroy entire cities on a whim, simply being left alone is not an option. What the mages are asking is that magic be regulated by no one but themselves. And you are surprised the non-mages might just have something to say about it? Never mind that many in the Libertarian fraternity are part of the Resolutionists who are guilty of many terrorist attacks to achieve precisely this.
Would you say that moving nuclear missiles into Cuba was not a threatening stance? Mages have about as much power and at least, missiles are not likely to blow up if their wife dies.

Also, material wellbeing does not balance the lack of human rights.

I daresay that if we were to ask this to people in third world countries who eat their own waste because they have nothing else would disagree.

Modifié par MisterJB, 27 juin 2013 - 10:16 .

[IceHawk-181]

MisterJB wrote...
I daresay that if we were to ask this to people in third world countries who eat their own waste because they have nothing else would disagree.

  And the millions of individuals who died for Freedom over the last 70 years might take issue with that theory.

Modifié par IceHawk-181, 27 juin 2013 - 10:59 .

[MWImexico]

MisterJB wrote...

When they have the ability to destroy entire cities on a whim, simply being left alone is not an option. What the mages are asking is that magic be regulated by no one but themselves. And you are surprised the non-mages might just have something to say about it? Never mind that many in the Libertarian fraternity are part of the Resolutionists who are guilty of many terrorist attacks to achieve precisely this.
Would you say that moving nuclear missiles into Cuba was not a threatening stance? Mages have about as much power and at least, missiles are not likely to blow up if their wife dies.

I guess that's what they'll ask, but for the moment we can't be sure. Maybe the war is still avoidable with talks.

What could happen if the mages create new circles and learn to manage themselves alone, would it be so terrible? Maybe cooperation with Templars or representatives of the state could also be possible?

Modifié par MWImexico, 27 juin 2013 - 11:03 .