1656 réponses à ce sujet

[Ieldra]

IceHawk-181 wrote...
You misunderstand.

The goal here is not to control Magic but to dominate and subjugate Mages.

If it were the former the emphasis of these posts would be upon advocating for low-tension, intelligent alliances that allow for research into abilities to prevent Possession and strip magic without destroying the soul.

That is not the goal.

Indeed. It's a classic case of "If I can't control it, I'll destroy it." I'm not saying this may not be a prudent course of action from a pragmatic, power-oriented mindset on the Chantry's side, but that doesn't make it less oppressive, and that doesn't remove the mages' attempt to get out of the system from the moral high ground.

[Plaintiff]

Xilizhra wrote...

Large parts of Kirkwall was set aflame after the explosions. Many
innocents died that day, but since they weren't mages, they apparently
aren't worth shedding a tear for, or even worth mentioning.

Or, apparently, worth putting on the screen, despite the fact that the designers had no problem strewing corpses all over the place in Demands of the Qun.

Anders' bomb also cursed them to be invisible, so their bodies could never be given a proper Andrastian funeral.

Truly, he is a monster.

[Ieldra]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Morocco Mole wrote...
Pretty sure an explosion like that is going to cause some collateral damage

Large parts of Kirkwall was set aflame after the explosions. Many innocents died that day, but since they weren't mages, they apparently aren't worth shedding a tear for, or even worth mentioning.

Rather obvious ploy to place blame and sidetrack from the main issue again. You can decry Anders' action and still support the cause of the mages. I killed him, in fact. The mages separating from the Chantry is a not a terrorist attack.

[TTTX]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Large parts of Kirkwall was set aflame after the explosions. Many innocents died that day, but since they weren't mages, they apparently aren't worth shedding a tear for, or even worth mentioning.

They died, but the Circle of Magic still didn't cause the explosion Anders did and Hawke indirectly if you choose to help Anders.

Last I checked Anders wasn't part of the Circle of Magic anymore and the reason why the Right of Annulment was call in Kirkwall (something Meredith had been pushing for some time even before the magic bomb) was because of that explosin even though the Circle was completely innercent in that crime.

[TTTX]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Rather obvious ploy to place blame and sidetrack from the main issue again. You can decry Anders' action and still support the cause of the mages. I killed him, in fact. The mages separating from the Chantry is a not a terrorist attack.

Indeed it's not a terrorist attack.
They only separated after been attacked by the Templars (which was caused of exstrimists on both sides) and that was only because of one vote it wasn't like all mages wanted to separate from the Chantry, but in the end they got pushed to far and now we have this mess because of a few extrimists (both Mages and Templars) have caused.

Personally I just think most mages just wanted to improve the Circle system (which isn't much to ask) and never wanted war to begin with.

[Fredward]

Plaintiff wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Large parts of Kirkwall was set aflame after the explosions. Many
innocents died that day, but since they weren't mages, they apparently
aren't worth shedding a tear for, or even worth mentioning.

Or, apparently, worth putting on the screen, despite the fact that the designers had no problem strewing corpses all over the place in Demands of the Qun.

Anders' bomb also cursed them to be invisible, so their bodies could never be given a proper Andrastian funeral.

Truly, he is a monster.

Actually he's really considerate. Andrastians practice cremation.

[Ieldra]

[Updated the OP with the following letter from Eorlin Amell to an unknown recipient, 9:40 Dragon. It is created in response to some questions about the mages' situation I was asked in a PM. I think this may be of general interest. I also believe something similar to what Eorlin suggests in the letter is going to happen in DAI if your character is a mage and/or has a mage-friendly background. Lastly. some of the events mentioned here may not have happened in all players' timelines. "Stoneshadow" is the name I gave the Circle established at Orzammar in response to Dagna's sojourn at the Circle of Ferelden.]

My dear friend,

you’ve asked me for advice about our strategic options after the conclave at Andoral’s Reach. I do not know why you think I have better advice to offer than the First Enchanters at the meeting, but yes. I have some ideas about how to proceed.

It may sound odd, but I think we should offer our support to the Divine. Yes, you didn’t misread. The Divine has proven that she thinks our cause has merit, and even if she would’ve preferred less radical actions, she helped the mages of the White Spire escape and without her intervention, they might all be dead by now. That her Chantry is falling to pieces just as she’s prepared to take a less oppressive stance on mages is most unfortunate, and she’s lost most of her military power with the secession of Lambert and most of the Seekers and Templars. If we offer her our support – as allies, not subordinates – we show that we appreciate her actions; that we aren’t opposed to serving the greater good if our autonomy is recognized, and we mitigate concerns of the non-mage population (please avoid calling them "mundane") about what we might do to them since most of them trust the Chantry.

So much for the political side of the picture, but there are other concerns. The Chantry controls the lyrium trade, and we’ll need lyrium not only to fight the occasional battle, but also for our research. If we support the Divine, we’ll have the lyrium we need, we might be able to cut Lambert’s faction off from their supply and long-term, we might be able to get our hands into the lyrium trade ourselves. Should that be successful and we can avoid open battle for some more time, his faction will be much weakened. To avoid being too dependent on one source, we should look to Orzammar. I understand that the representative of the Stoneshadow Circle couldn’t make it to your meeting, but I know her and can put you in touch. Her mages have won great acclaim when they helped House Helmi against the darkspawn in the reclaiming of Kal’hirol. There is a spirit of renewal in Orzammar as the dwarves attempt to reclaim some of their ancient glory. It is something to behold. You do not want to stand in their way. I imagine your meeting was infused with a similar spirit.

Also – it may be galling to admit that, but that doesn’t make it less true – we’re going to need people with Templar training. We’re going to embark on some potentially dangerous research, and it’s in our own interest to have someone nearby who can interrupt our magic if something goes wrong – as long as it’s understood that “disrupt our magic” doesn’t mean “kill” if at all possible. There will be fitting candidates among those templars who remained with the Divine. We have a templar/mage couple among our leaders at Andoral’s reach. They can serve as an example.

I’m afraid this might not go down well with some of the radicals. While I count myself as one regarding our goals, I see no reason to hold on to old grudges if they only hold us back. Remind them our goal is autonomy, not isolation, and if we don’t acknowledge that our power comes with the obligation to use it responsibility we will not be successful.

Also, I cannot overstate how important it is to keep the state of things from deteriorating further. Something big is happening in the Fade. I wonder why you haven’t noticed it by now. I’m afraid we’re all going to feel its effects before long. Whatever it is, we’ll be at the forefront of events because we’re more at home in the Fade than anyone else. It scares me, and I don’t scare easily, but maybe if we save everyone’s asses, they’ll sing a different tune about mages.  

That was it. I also have some ideas about the mages’ place in a more enlightened culture in the long-term, but much of that depends on the results of our research and the actions we’re going to take in the coming conflict, so I’ll refrain from indulging in pointless speculation for now.

If I may mention a concern of my own: have you heard anything about my cousin, the infamous Hawke? Last I heard, she left Kirkwall in a captured ship together with a handful of companions. She probably doesn’t know about me but I’d like to make contact with her.

I hope everything goes well with you and that we’ll all meet again alive instead of being cut up by templars or being eaten by dragons.

Until then,

Yours,

Eorlin Amell

Modifié par Ieldra2, 28 juin 2013 - 10:36 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Meh...Meredith was gunning for a RoA before that, and not without reason.
The Kirkwall circle was unruly and filled with blood mages.

Yes, the Chantry being blown up was an excuse, but...one very big but:

- Why should Meredith belive Anders? Every single competent assasin in the world, if caught, will deny he was working for anyone. OF COURSE Anders would say he did it alone and has no ties to the Circle. Anyone with half a brain would say that.

- The Circle was rife for a culling anyway.

[vpacheco1984]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

The general idea appears to be that mages have to be watched all the time, with concessions made for a minimum of privacy but only within a Circle. It is possible that things are a little different in Ferelden. It is also possible that those who made the Ines quest didn't think about this.

Finn.

Ieldra2 wrote...

LOL. I didn't recall Wilhelm's journal when I wrote the manifesto, but it echoes my thoughts nicely: "How will we ever find another way to deal with demonic possession if the Chantry does not let us research it?" The journal also confirms that the templars didn't know what he was doing. 

Isn't that the entire point of the Tranquil research from Asunder? A way to cut a mage's connection to the fade without hindering their emotions? Hell, even Lambert supports the idea.

No he doesn't. He ordered Evliena (or how ever you spell her name) to hide the findings by killing all the mages involved. He didn't want a different solution found he wanted to keep tranquilty. He was a bastard. 

[EmperorSahlertz]

vpacheco1984 wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

The general idea appears to be that mages have to be watched all the time, with concessions made for a minimum of privacy but only within a Circle. It is possible that things are a little different in Ferelden. It is also possible that those who made the Ines quest didn't think about this.

Finn.

Ieldra2 wrote...

LOL. I didn't recall Wilhelm's journal when I wrote the manifesto, but it echoes my thoughts nicely: "How will we ever find another way to deal with demonic possession if the Chantry does not let us research it?" The journal also confirms that the templars didn't know what he was doing. 

Isn't that the entire point of the Tranquil research from Asunder? A way to cut a mage's connection to the fade without hindering their emotions? Hell, even Lambert supports the idea.

No he doesn't. He ordered Evliena (or how ever you spell her name) to hide the findings by killing all the mages involved. He didn't want a different solution found he wanted to keep tranquilty. He was a bastard. 

Either you havn't read the book, or your comprehension of what Lambert said is lacking. Lambert wanted the findings hidden while the conflcit with the mages was still hot. He didn't want the mages to get even more ammunition in the debate. He was fully willing to pursue the research at a later date, but the current political climate, did not favor the findings being made public.

[Ieldra]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Meh...Meredith was gunning for a RoA before that, and not without reason.
The Kirkwall circle was unruly and filled with blood mages.

Yes, the Chantry being blown up was an excuse, but...one very big but:

- Why should Meredith belive Anders? Every single competent assasin in the world, if caught, will deny he was working for anyone. OF COURSE Anders would say he did it alone and has no ties to the Circle. Anyone with half a brain would say that.

- The Circle was rife for a culling anyway.

Are you trolling? Because the alternative is that you mean it, and I find it disturbing how you're justifing the mass murder of people with them being "unruly" and refer to it as "culling."

@EmperorSahletz:
He *did* order Evangeline to kill the mages to hide the research if it proved valid. He left her some leeway, but it's pretty clear that's what he meant. He didn't want the research to reach the Divine.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 28 juin 2013 - 01:40 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Meh...Meredith was gunning for a RoA before that, and not without reason.
The Kirkwall circle was unruly and filled with blood mages.

Yes, the Chantry being blown up was an excuse, but...one very big but:

- Why should Meredith belive Anders? Every single competent assasin in the world, if caught, will deny he was working for anyone. OF COURSE Anders would say he did it alone and has no ties to the Circle. Anyone with half a brain would say that.

- The Circle was rife for a culling anyway.

Are you trolling? Because the alternative is that you mean it, and I find it disturbing how you're justifing the mass murder of people with them being "unruly" and refer to it as "culling."

The Kirkwall Circle was one step away from open rebellion. While such unrest doesn't always warrant the Annulment being called, it sometimes does. Especially when the First Enchanter himself refuses to help the Knight-Commander crack down on the rebels.

[vpacheco1984]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

vpacheco1984 wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

The general idea appears to be that mages have to be watched all the time, with concessions made for a minimum of privacy but only within a Circle. It is possible that things are a little different in Ferelden. It is also possible that those who made the Ines quest didn't think about this.

Finn.

Ieldra2 wrote...

LOL. I didn't recall Wilhelm's journal when I wrote the manifesto, but it echoes my thoughts nicely: "How will we ever find another way to deal with demonic possession if the Chantry does not let us research it?" The journal also confirms that the templars didn't know what he was doing. 

Isn't that the entire point of the Tranquil research from Asunder? A way to cut a mage's connection to the fade without hindering their emotions? Hell, even Lambert supports the idea.

No he doesn't. He ordered Evliena (or how ever you spell her name) to hide the findings by killing all the mages involved. He didn't want a different solution found he wanted to keep tranquilty. He was a bastard. 

Either you havn't read the book, or your comprehension of what Lambert said is lacking. Lambert wanted the findings hidden while the conflcit with the mages was still hot. He didn't want the mages to get even more ammunition in the debate. He was fully willing to pursue the research at a later date, but the current political climate, did not favor the findings being made public.

I understand his character better then you. He didn't want it cured he didn't want another solution found. Hell he even strong armed the Divine into making untranquiled mage tranquil again. Yeah he wanted something else found. He hates mages I got that much he. He didn't give a **** about the mages killed in the dungones in fact he said "initiates die," then there was the fact that he sent a whole unit of templars to make sure that the research was destoryed. Lets see what else oh yeah he was going to execute/tranquil Rhys with no proff that he was actully guilty. Oh then there was the whole sale slaughter or imprisonment of the first enchanters. 

[Ieldra]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Meh...Meredith was gunning for a RoA before that, and not without reason.
The Kirkwall circle was unruly and filled with blood mages.

Yes, the Chantry being blown up was an excuse, but...one very big but:

- Why should Meredith belive Anders? Every single competent assasin in the world, if caught, will deny he was working for anyone. OF COURSE Anders would say he did it alone and has no ties to the Circle. Anyone with half a brain would say that.

- The Circle was rife for a culling anyway.

Are you trolling? Because the alternative is that you mean it, and I find it disturbing how you're justifing the mass murder of people with them being "unruly" and refer to it as "culling."

The Kirkwall Circle was one step away from open rebellion. While such unrest doesn't always warrant the Annulment being called, it sometimes does. Especially when the First Enchanter himself refuses to help the Knight-Commander crack down on the rebels.

The Right of Annulment is an atrocity. It's genocide enshrined as law, and all justifications rest on the assumption that it's wrong for an oppressed minority to rebel. I reject such justifications. 

[Kaiser Arian XVII]

Templars ... as bad as Dragons!

White progressive Mages against the begot zealot oppressive Templars ... who shall win?!

@Op, Cool story bro!

[TTTX]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Meh...Meredith was gunning for a RoA before that, and not without reason.
The Kirkwall circle was unruly and filled with blood mages.

Yes, the Chantry being blown up was an excuse, but...one very big but:

- Why should Meredith belive Anders? Every single competent assasin in the world, if caught, will deny he was working for anyone. OF COURSE Anders would say he did it alone and has no ties to the Circle. Anyone with half a brain would say that.

- The Circle was rife for a culling anyway.

Kirkwall itself had blood mages most of them were either from Tevinter or apostates, the Circle itself not really at least not until at the time of act 3, but at that point the Circle were pushed pretty far by Meredith as she tightened her grip on both Kirkwall and the Circle which not many were happy about that includes none mages. If you keep pushing someone, sooner or later they push back, mages are still people even with their powers.

Meredith also has no proof that Anders was working with the Circle, she can't just call out RoA like she did, she still needed to investigate the matter properly, not to mention she needed the necessary approval from a grand cleric.

If it was it was because Meredith pushed them to far, after all she didn't keep a proper eye on her own troops like sir Alrick (or however you spell that name), sending out death squads filled with extremists that kills anyone helps a mage, even for minor crimes that doesn't deserve death, having mages that had even passed their Hawering made traquel (Which is illegal unless you really have a lot of proof that this mages a blood mage) and not to mention she sometimes had the mages locked in their room 24/7 ever tried being in isolation? it's not healthy and will sooner or later drive you crazy.

There is also that little fact that the Circle also houses children RoA require them to die as well and you can't convince me that they deserve to die as well.

The one who suggested that placing one of the largest Circlesin Thedas right in Kirkwall, where the Veil is very thin and house it in a former Tevinter prison had to be a completely utter idiot.

Modifié par TTTX, 28 juin 2013 - 02:31 .

[Bigdoser]

Funny thing is Meredith called the ROA because the people would have wanted blood for what anders did.

But in that situation aren't the templars meant to protect the mages from the angry religious mob? I swear their mandate is the protect mages from others and themselves?

You had the guy who did the crime right in front of you yet you call ROA the circle? uh huh I can't support that. Anyone who wants to harm people who had nothing to do with it will have to go through me my job aa champion is to protect the innocent and in that instance the circle mages were innocent.

My whole opinion is the circle system needs to be revamped from top to bottom. 

Modifié par Bigdoser, 28 juin 2013 - 02:41 .

[Sutamina]

Meredith a fine example of what one will do when no reason exsisted (that should have) too be a emotionally mature responsible adult.

The one who suggested that placing one of the largest Circlesin Thedas right in Kirkwall, where the Veil is very thin and house it in a former Tevinter prison had to be a completely utter idiot.

Which is realistic and should be expected too keep happening unless there is sufficient cuase to do otherwise.

[KainD]

Morocco Mole wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Large parts of Kirkwall was set aflame after the explosions. Many innocents died that day, but since they weren't mages, they apparently aren't worth shedding a tear for, or even worth mentioning.

It's funny isn't it? 

There was not a single innocent that died that day sry. 

[Sutamina]

KainD wrote...
There was not a single innocent that died that day sry.

Care to elaborate  ?

KainD wrote...
Everybody who supports the circle system is an enemy to the mages.
It's like in Spartacus where they killed citizens of Rome, simply
because those citizens were ok with slavery as a society, that's a legit
reason, they are no less enemy than armed templars, they are just more
passive.

is this sarcasm ?

Modifié par Sutamina, 28 juin 2013 - 03:50 .

[KainD]

Sutamina wrote...

KainD wrote...
There was not a single innocent that died that day sry.

Care to elaborate  ?

Everybody who supports the circle system is an enemy to the mages. It's like in Spartacus where they killed citizens of Rome, simply because those citizens were ok with slavery as a society, that's a legit reason, they are no less enemy than armed templars, they are just more passive. 

[EmperorSahlertz]

Ieldra2 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Meh...Meredith was gunning for a RoA before that, and not without reason.
The Kirkwall circle was unruly and filled with blood mages.

Yes, the Chantry being blown up was an excuse, but...one very big but:

- Why should Meredith belive Anders? Every single competent assasin in the world, if caught, will deny he was working for anyone. OF COURSE Anders would say he did it alone and has no ties to the Circle. Anyone with half a brain would say that.

- The Circle was rife for a culling anyway.

Are you trolling? Because the alternative is that you mean it, and I find it disturbing how you're justifing the mass murder of people with them being "unruly" and refer to it as "culling."

The Kirkwall Circle was one step away from open rebellion. While such unrest doesn't always warrant the Annulment being called, it sometimes does. Especially when the First Enchanter himself refuses to help the Knight-Commander crack down on the rebels.

The Right of Annulment is an atrocity. It's genocide enshrined as law, and all justifications rest on the assumption that it's wrong for an oppressed minority to rebel. I reject such justifications. 

I know how much you pro-mages would just love for the Annulments to be actually genocide. However, no matter how many times you try to hammer this loaded term onto it, does not make it so. There is no doubt that the Annulment is a terrible action, and morally questionable in every aspect. It still isn't genocide. So kindly stop trying to delude peoples' perception of what genocide is and isn't.

And the Annulment aren't always called when the Circle are being rebellious. The Annulment of the Rivain Circle, is ironically a good example of that. Only by the end of that conflict was the Annulment called. Previous to that, the Templars had attempted to actually contain the situation with minimal loss of life. But once it became clear that the Circle could not be salvaged, the Annulment was called.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Sutamina wrote...

KainD wrote...
There was not a single innocent that died that day sry.

Care to elaborate  ?

KainD wrote...
Everybody who supports the circle system is an enemy to the mages.
It's like in Spartacus where they killed citizens of Rome, simply
because those citizens were ok with slavery as a society, that's a legit
reason, they are no less enemy than armed templars, they are just more
passive.

is this sarcasm ?

KainD is a known mage-supremacist with a Magneto complex. You learn to filter it out, and only listen when he actually have something useful to say.

[Ieldra]

KainD wrote...

Sutamina wrote...

KainD wrote...
There was not a single innocent that died that day sry.

Care to elaborate  ?

Everybody who supports the circle system is an enemy to the mages. It's like in Spartacus where they killed citizens of Rome, simply because those citizens were ok with slavery as a society, that's a legit reason, they are no less enemy than armed templars, they are just more passive.

By that logic, none of the mages in the Circle are innocent because they didn't prevent their fellow mages from using blood magic and become possessed. You can see where that would lead.