1656 réponses à ce sujet

[IceHawk-181]

First, the word you are looking for is oppressed, not suppressed.

Second, the Elves when they were first invaded and subjugated do fit the bill nicely. I thought you meant the ones in the Alienage circa-DAO et al.

Third, go back a couple of pages if you want my symposium on slavery.
Reduced to its fundamental principle, Slavery is an institutional force that forcibly subjugates an individual and dominates their individual agency with absolute authority, specifically that over life and death.

That the institutional forces allow a degree of freedom and a standard of living within the system in no way alters the foundational principle that it can, without notice or due process, violently execute or psychologically abuse any individual under its power at a moment's notice without recourse.

Do not confuse the authority to wield power with the largess of not choosing to do so.

Modifié par IceHawk-181, 28 juin 2013 - 11:07 .

[Ieldra]

*deleted*

Modifié par Ieldra2, 28 juin 2013 - 11:09 .

[IceHawk-181]

masster blaster wrote...
The mages are simply being confined inside of a prison. Not slaves, but like they are criminals. Suppressed is the morel likely term than slaves.

This is an important point.
 
What crime are we referring to?
 
In-Universe Mages are confined to Circles literally because the Chantry blames them for Original Sin and identifies them as threats by merely existing.
 
There is no actionable offense involved, it is merely the stipulation that a Mage breathes.
 
What would you call a system that forcibly imprisons an individual against their will simply because of a genetic trait?

Modifié par IceHawk-181, 28 juin 2013 - 11:16 .

[masster blaster]

IceHawk-181 wrote...

First, the word you are looking for is oppressed, not suppressed.

Second, the Elves when they were first invaded and subjugated do fit the bill nicely. I thought you meant the ones in the Alienage circa-DAO et al.

Third, go back a couple of pages if you want my symposium on slavery.
Reduced to its fundamental principle, Slavery is an institutional force that forcibly subjugates an individual and dominates their individual agency with absolute authority, specifically that over life and death.

That the institutional forces allow a degree of freedom and a standard of living within the system in no way alters the foundational principle that it can, without notice or due process, violently execute or psychologically abuse any individual under its power at a moment's notice without recourse.

Do not confuse the authority to wield power with the largess of not choosing to do so.

Not true. If that was the case then Parent's are basically enslaving their children are they not? They dominate their children, and do have absolute authority of their life, and death.  They are forced to go to school. It's manditaory in the united states that ALL children must go to school. Homless children wise not I am afraid, but the children that live in homes....ya.

[masster blaster]

IceHawk-181 wrote...

masster blaster wrote...
The mages are simply being confined inside of a prison. Not slaves, but like they are criminals. Suppressed is the morel likely term than slaves.

This is an important point.
 
What crime are we referring to?
 
In-Universe Mages are confined to Circles literally because the Chantry blames them for Original Sin and identifies them as threats by merely existing.
 
There is no actionable offense involved, it is merely the stipulation that a Mage breathes.
 
What would you call a system that forcibly imprisons an individual against their will simply because of a genetic trait?

Ummmm.....is that a trick question?  Let's see. people who are different than you,,, have powers that can kill hundreds of people with in a few minutes, etc. Mainly it's due to fear.  And yes that's one of the biggest points. If  just a few mages can cause the " blight" to happen, then ya I can see why they went nuts. Also that's like saying the elves still hold a grudge against the humans, even though the humans that caused their races to suffer are long but dead.

Modifié par masster blaster, 28 juin 2013 - 11:26 .

[IceHawk-181]

We covered this territory already.

First, no, parents do not have absolute authority of their children.
I am not sure what country you live in, but in the United States even a child has legal rights that override parental authority, the basic of them being the right to life.

Second, the education analogy would only apply if armed men came to your house, ripped your child from your unwilling grasp and could kill you if you resisted, and placed them in a guarded tower where, if one of their classmates violates a rule or loses his mind, he can be put to death without personally having committed any crime and with no recourse whatsoever.

[IceHawk-181]

Insofar as the Blight-level threat argument.

Canonically Mages and their abilities exist in a spectrum.
Some are capable of immense feats of power and others struggle to so much as light a candle.

Mages are not inherently powerful and do not all present a "level a city block" level threat.

[masster blaster]

IceHawk-181 wrote...

We covered this territory already.

First, no, parents do not have absolute authority of their children.
I am not sure what country you live in, but in the United States even a child has legal rights that override parental authority, the basic of them being the right to life.

Second, the education analogy would only apply if armed men came to your house, ripped your child from your unwilling grasp and could kill you if you resisted, and placed them in a guarded tower where, if one of their classmates violates a rule or loses his mind, he can be put to death without personally having committed any crime and with no recourse whatsoever.

umm you mistake my reply. as in when they are developing. before they become fully formed. The child does not have any rights yet because it's not fully born, well developed. Also no in Texas ALL children are required to go to school. Unless it's medical conditions, if not then no. You have to. You can drop out when your 18, however no your required to. When I went to high school one teenager left school for about a day, and the police arrested him for leaving school without any permission. It may be diffrent where you live, but in Texas it is. This was about a year ago.

Modifié par masster blaster, 28 juin 2013 - 11:34 .

[masster blaster]

IceHawk-181 wrote...

Insofar as the Blight-level threat argument.

Canonically Mages and their abilities exist in a spectrum.
Some are capable of immense feats of power and others struggle to so much as light a candle.

Mages are not inherently powerful and do not all present a "level a city block" level threat.

But that's the point. You see. Like I said it's like the Elves still holding a grudge against the Humans, and think all humans are evil. The Chantry sees all mages need to be imprisoned, even though not all mages are powerful, or evil.

[IceHawk-181]

You do not know your own state very well.

Leeper v. Arlington Independent School Distinct (1987) affirmed the right to homeschooling within Texas, which the Texas Court of Appeals affirmed in 1991 and was unanimously upheld by the Texas Supreme Court in 1994.

Home schools in Texas do not even need to contact the local District, they merely need to operate within a specific set of (very general) guidelines.

The student you were referring to likely violated Truancy laws that he is legally bound by as a registered student.

[IceHawk-181]

masster blaster wrote...

IceHawk-181 wrote...

Insofar as the Blight-level threat argument.

Canonically Mages and their abilities exist in a spectrum.
Some are capable of immense feats of power and others struggle to so much as light a candle.

Mages are not inherently powerful and do not all present a "level a city block" level threat.

But that's the point. You see. Like I said it's like the Elves still holding a grudge against the Humans, and think all humans are evil. The Chantry sees all mages need to be imprisoned, even though not all mages are powerful, or evil.

I am not arguing about the moral justification of the system; merely pointing out that the Circle of Magi under the Chantry fits the academic definition of slavery exactly.

[In Exile]

IceHawk-181 wrote...
Third, go back a couple of pages if you want my symposium on slavery.
Reduced to its fundamental principle, Slavery is an institutional force that forcibly subjugates an individual and dominates their individual agency with absolute authority, specifically that over life and death.

That the institutional forces allow a degree of freedom and a standard of living within the system in no way alters the foundational principle that it can, without notice or due process, violently execute or psychologically abuse any individual under its power at a moment's notice without recourse.

Wouldn't that make feudal society itself, essentially, slavery? I recall you drew a distinction re: something like "freeholder" status, but I couldn't quite follow it. 

It seems to me that even with the (at leat lesser) nobility, in principle the institutional head could demand - without notice or due process - execution or abuse. 

Even if we look at the Landsmeet that resulted in Loghain's downfall, I suppose you could say he had notice (of the Landsmeet itself), but I would argue that there was not very much due process. 

[masster blaster]

IceHawk-181 wrote...

You do not know your own state very well.

Leeper v. Arlington Independent School Distinct (1987) affirmed the right to homeschooling within Texas, which the Texas Court of Appeals affirmed in 1991 and was unanimously upheld by the Texas Supreme Court in 1994.

Home schools in Texas do not even need to contact the local District, they merely need to operate within a specific set of (very general) guidelines.

The student you were referring to likely violated Truancy laws that he is legally bound by as a registered student.

ahhhhh. As in school in general. Home school is one of them. A child must a least receive some kind of education. Yes, however while the home school students my not receive the same punishment's as the ones at school, they are still subjugated to go to school in general. Much like the Mages have to stay inside the tower in dragon age, unless they are given permission to leave, or are aiding the Warden's. Children in Texas must at least be in some kind of school. ( Unless they try to escape) Uhh the mages I mean.

Modifié par masster blaster, 28 juin 2013 - 11:55 .

[IceHawk-181]

@ In Exile:

In a general sense, yes.

The issue is immensely complicated because we enter into questions of whether Manorial Feudalism constituted a formal institutional force or an organic exigency of the state of civilization at the time and whether or not economic pragmatism and geographic influences prefigured possible freedom of movement.

However, the easy answer is this.

There is reason we use the phrase "subjects" when referring to people who lived under Feudal Regimes in Europe, Asia, and Russia and not "citizens."

Modifié par IceHawk-181, 28 juin 2013 - 11:53 .

[In Exile]

IceHawk-181 wrote...
In a general sense, yes.

The issue is immensely complicated because we enter into questions of whether Manorial Feudalism constituted a formal institutional force or an organic exigency of the state of civilization at the time and whether or not economic pragmatism and geographic influences prefigured possible freedom of movement.

Ah, thanks. I get the issue now, and I can certainly do more research on my own. 

There is reason we use the phrase "subjects" when referring to people who lived under Feudal Regimes in Europe, Asia, and Russia and not "citizens."

Heh. Fair point.

So then, just to clarify, the distiction you were drawing between (generally) the serfs (and equivalents) in Thedas and the mages was more along a spectrum of arguable freedom, and that (again in principle), while each could in theory be a "slave", they would actually be slaves in different ways? To the extent that using the same term to describe them toghether would be a misnomer?

[IceHawk-181]

Mandatory education is not the equivalent of the Circle System.
You are not deprived of your rights as an individual when you go to school and going to school is actually a component of a system of consent. Schools are actually an arm of the state itself and therefore functionally and legally responsible to the citizenry.

As children do not have the intellectual capability to act as full-citizens they are necessarily limited in their rights. However, that limitation is rather limited in nature and actually, in a legalistic sense, more resembles the assumption by your parents of the concomitant responsibility for your wellbeing that children do not assume themselves until they reach their majority.

So while children cannot personally chose whether or not to go to school their parents, who assume their legal capacity to chose, do retain the right to determine where and when their children attend a school.

And if the parents determine that the education system in their locale is not suitable they retain the right, of themselves and on behalf of their children, to relocate.

[IceHawk-181]

In Exile wrote...

IceHawk-181 wrote...
In a general sense, yes.

The issue is immensely complicated because we enter into questions of whether Manorial Feudalism constituted a formal institutional force or an organic exigency of the state of civilization at the time and whether or not economic pragmatism and geographic influences prefigured possible freedom of movement.

Ah, thanks. I get the issue now, and I can certainly do more research on my own. 

There is reason we use the phrase "subjects" when referring to people who lived under Feudal Regimes in Europe, Asia, and Russia and not "citizens."

Heh. Fair point.

So then, just to clarify, the distiction you were drawing between (generally) the serfs (and equivalents) in Thedas and the mages was more along a spectrum of arguable freedom, and that (again in principle), while each could in theory be a "slave", they would actually be slaves in different ways? To the extent that using the same term to describe them toghether would be a misnomer?

Exactly.
 
This is one of the difficulties of the issue of Slavery & Liberty.
 
When we actually engage in the concept of whether or not a population constitutes an "enslaved populace" we are engaging in a rather in-depth negotiation between realistic and pragmatic concerns, cultural acceptability, and degrees.
 
This is what we refer to as a Spectrum Issue.
 
Subjects of Manorial Feudal states in England and France exist in a definitely unfree state, however whether or not this constitutes enslavement is difficult to determine. Historiographically we are currently sitting on a consensus that effectively states they were not slaves because institutions were effectively non-existent and freedom of mobility did exist.
 
The same could not be said in most cases for Russian Serfs and usually the consensus tends to be more liberal with the phrase "slave" when referring to Serfs.



To muddle the waters even further; Slavery does not necessarily require compulsory labor and compulsory labor does not necessarily remit something to slavery.

Modifié par IceHawk-181, 29 juin 2013 - 12:12 .

[In Exile]

IceHawk-181 wrote... 
Subjects of Manorial Feudal states in England and France exist in a definitely unfree state, however whether or not this constitutes enslavement is difficult to determine. Historiographically we are currently sitting on a consensus that effectively states they were not slaves because institutions were effectively non-existent and freedom of mobility did exist. 
 
The same could not be said in most cases for Russian Serfs and usually the consensus tends to be more liberal with the phrase "slave" when referring to Serfs.

I understand, especially looking back in the context of your previous answer. Thank you! 

What I would be interested in is your view on the idea that the mages should run a Circle themselves? Essentially, do you think that part of what makes the system "slavery" is the impossibility of the serfs/servants/underclass to ever participate in the upperclass?

Scoping down the issue for discussion, suppose that mages mandate that all mages born in the Circle have to be trained in a Circle but (supposing the economies support this for the sake of argument), they would finance the cost of living for the parents to relocate to a "Circle town", which would double as the supporting village/breadbasket for the Circle. 

To muddle the waters even further; Slavery does not necessarily require compulsory labor and compulsory labor does not necessarily remit something to slavery.

The idea of specific enforcement of employment concepts really danges on a fine edge with concepts like these. 

Modifié par In Exile, 29 juin 2013 - 12:15 .

[IceHawk-181]

In Exile wrote...

IceHawk-181 wrote... 
Subjects of Manorial Feudal states in England and France exist in a definitely unfree state, however whether or not this constitutes enslavement is difficult to determine. Historiographically we are currently sitting on a consensus that effectively states they were not slaves because institutions were effectively non-existent and freedom of mobility did exist. 
 
The same could not be said in most cases for Russian Serfs and usually the consensus tends to be more liberal with the phrase "slave" when referring to Serfs.

I understand, especially looking back in the context of your previous answer. Thank you! 

What I would be interested in is your view on the idea that the mages should run a Circle themselves? Essentially, do you think that part of what makes the system "slavery" is the impossibility of the serfs/servants/underclass to ever participate in the upperclass?

Scoping down the issue for discussion, suppose that mages mandate that all mages born in the Circle have to be trained in a Circle but (supposing the economies support this for the sake of argument), they would finance the cost of living for the parents to relocate to a "Circle town", which would double as the supporting village/breadbasket for the Circle.

Effectively, yes.
 
If a population is able to wield deliberative authority concerning the application of restrictions upon their liberty then they alleviate the slavery concern. It evolves then into an issue of protecting liberties and balancing liberty and safety under the aegis of the consent of the governed.
 
If the College of Magi was given sovereign authority over all Mages and then provided a means for Mages to voice their opinions within that sovereign system we would be set.
 
This would literally be the Mages offering a compact of civilization, a contractual obligation that would transform the relationship from domination to one of consent.
 
The Circles would no longer be institutional domination of mages but would effectively transform into the institutional expression of the popular will of Mages. (Literally, the Leviathan in a Hobbseian sense)
 
And that is the key.
 
Within the contract you can still have individuals prosecuted and you can still wield the necessary violence to punish crimes. However, you now do so under the authority of the community.
 
The obvious conceit is that Mages do exist as an insular and fundamentally different, and in extreme cases potentially dangerous, class of people.
 
So a degree of restriction would be necessitated in the name of the Common Good (in this case mandatory education) however individual rights would not be subsumed under an arbitrary authority.

In Exile wrote...

To muddle the waters even further; Slavery does not necessarily require compulsory labor and compulsory labor does not necessarily remit something to slavery.

The idea of specific enforcement of employment concepts really danges on a fine edge with concepts like these. 

Imagine the fun when we have multiple classes of indentured servants and individuals in bondage with the capability of earning manumission and freedmen who are no longer in bondage but severely restricted in physical mobility due to their former status.
 
How do you define that system?
 
That would 16th and 17th Century Virginia.

Modifié par IceHawk-181, 29 juin 2013 - 12:30 .

[dragonflight288]

I'm pretty sure that what I'm about to do is on topic in this thread because it started out as a manifesto. It'll be a mental exercise to look at the issue from two differing perspectives.

This'll be a manifesto from the perspective of my first two playthroughs. Daylen Amell, a mage who practiced the school of spirit extensively, and became an Arcane Warrior. He's kind of a cross between Lucrosian and Libertarian, but mostly Lucrosian. And one written by Thorin Aeducan, (my avatar) the Dwarven Noble who left Orzammar as a staunch traditionalist and took an outsider's point of view from a society that never feared magic unless it came from an emissary attacking them in the darkspawn. His view changed more than he would like to admit while on the surface, but is coming at the issue with fresh eyes.

Magic exists to Serve Man, and never to rule over him!

These were the first words Knight-Commander Gregoire spoke to me when I was taken to my Harrowing. Our magic is a gift, but also a curse. Through magic, we mages can do as much as any non-mage, or mundane as some of my peers have called them. And in many ways, we can do much more. But we live in constant danger, not only from the threats from the Fade but also from our own power. I myself saw a mage practice his fire spells, only to set himself alight when learning he could injure himself. His mentor had to douse him and encouraged the use of flint and tinder instead. Enchanter Wynne herself told me that before attending the Circle, she had lit a boy's head on fire as he was bullying her.

Naturally it is apparent that all mages everywhere need a place to study magic and learn to control their own power.

The College of Magi have only recently declared themselves independent, and while I was occupied at the time of the events, the afteraffects are very real everywhere in the world. I never thought I would see the day when templars would leave enmasse from the Chantry over an ideology difference and where mages exist in the world. But as it stands now, there is no going back to the way things were. Not without a lot of bloodshed.

As a Warden, I have seen templars such as Ser Rylock ignore their duty to their country and disregard ancient treaties made with the Grey Wardens and our right to conscript. And failing to take our mages away, try to strong-arm their own into our ranks so they could do their job as templars within the Grey Warden's ranks. I made it a rule after Anders' left that templar recruits are welcome within the order, but any Templar who has made his vows and become addicted to lyrium will be shown the door. Anyone who joins the Wardens will face the Darkspawn.

In the words of Warden-Commander Duncan, Maker bless his soul: Chantry business is not ours.

What should be my first and only priority is dealing with the
darkspawn may have to be placed into storage if the Templars or Seekers,
well, seek to interfere with Warden business again, then we as Wardens must do whatever is necessary to make sure that our business is never interfered with again.

However, as a mage, my hands may be forced by this war, and so I have written this for all nations of Thedas to read. The Circles of Magi are no longer under the jurisdiction of the Chantry, so all the rulers should just get used to treating the mages as their own entity and organization from this point forward. I also give you warning, if you seek mages to serve as healers in your army, or even mages to be in your army, or to serve as Enchanters, then you must commit to keeping them safe. The Templars and the Seekers will not leave any mage live in peace. The Nevarran Accord has been declared to be void, and so we know the templars and the Seekers may once again reform as the inquisition of old.

Magic exists to serve man, but I ask how can it serve man when the mage's head is on a pike? How can mages in the Wardens serve man by fighting the darkspawn of we cannot do our jobs in peace? How can healers serve man if they are killed for being what they are?

To the mages, now, more than ever, we must live up to the words of my mentor, the First Enchanter Irving. "We must prove we are strong enough to handle our maker-given power!" We now have our independence from the Chantry, but if we cannot prove we are capable of handling our independence, all we will accomplish is justifying the Circle's we just left. You must find a way to train young mages how to control their power, and to protect yourselves from the dangers of the Fade.

As a Spirit Mage, I understand that through constantly studying the Fade and tapping into its power that we ourselves can do what the templars themselves have done. Through the school of spirit, we can disrupt spells, drain mana, and even negate its effects entirely far more effectively than the templars themselves are capable of. But the school of spirit draws its power from the fade directly, and is etheral in nature. This in turn may draw the attention of spirits in the Fade, so it remains essential that we train warriors in the arts of the templars so that they may assist.

We all know that we must be able to punish our own who break crimes, so let us look to the Aequitarians, the Libertarians, and even the Loyalists, and come up with a set code of conduct and laws that we as mages must adhere to, including a set punishment for crimes. Tranquility has been proven curable, but is it justifiable to be used on a blood mage who used their mind dominating powers to remove the free-will of others? Is it justifiable to use on apprentices who show they cannot resist the allure of a demon? And how can we tell if an apprentice can or cannot resist?

We must also look at supplies. The chantry controls the lyrium trade, and we need lyrium to augment our powers, or to be used in essential magical research. Should we lose lyrium, our only other option is blood magic. Do we want to be known throughout the world as blood mages the very moment we turn from the Chantry? We have declared our independence, so we need a supply of lyrium. Do we make a deal with Divine Justinia, do we raid chantry storehouses, or do we trade goods and services to Orzammar in exchange for lyrium? We also have no country, we don't have land or resources, so we need also attend to finding a home where we can live.

We mages are free, but we must now show we have earned it, and are responsible with our power. Magic exists to serve man. As my family have said, our magic should serve what is best in us, not what is base.

I am the Warden-Commander of Ferelden, and I will continue to serve in that capacity to the best of my ability. But to all mages, you must find a way to show your control over your power and that you can be trusted with your freedom. If you don't, you will only justify the chantry's view of us. You must move forward, but you must do so sensibly and without hesitation. The templars will not wait for you.

Daylen Amell

Hero of Ferelden, Warden-Commander.

****

Surfacers have their brains addled by that globe of fire in the Sky. They should all just fall into it.

The first time I came to the surface with the Wardens, I had to be dragged in a cart because I couldn't stand to be out in the open while on the surface. I might have fallen into it. I still cannot get over the queasy feeling that comes with stepping out of doors. I need a roof over my head, or better still, return to Orzammar.

But only one thing has terrified me more than the stone-forsaken sky! And that was an abomination. Surfacers go to a dream-world every night, and their dreams are created and shaped by spirits and demons, or so I've been told. We dwarves resist magic, thank the Ancestors, but before becoming a Warden, I never knew what a dream was! We sleep like the stone! But I have been to the Fade. Twice. I have seen how terrible the spirits who rule there are.

It's hard to explain, but my friend Dalyen told me that in the Fade, everything that exists is nothing more than the expression of a thought. You aren't really there, you only think you are. Your body is still on the ground. You only look the way you do because you think you do. There's a chair sitting there because a demon or spirit willed it into being, or because you yourself think a chair should go there. Your own will is all that is real, and even it can be destroyed. Should you be consumed in the Fade, it's exactly the same as your will being devoured by a demon and they take possession of your body.

How all surfacers don't make deals with these demons in their dreams each night, dreaming of the future, of past regrets, or even of things they wish they have but cannot attain, I will never know. I was told that a mages power naturally draws a demon, but demons also possess trees. I conversed with an oak tree that rhymed, if the people of Orzammar can imagine THAT, but it's true. I've seen non-mages possessed by these foul creatures the same as any mage. It's arguable I've personally seen more non-mages possessed than mages. Trees, the dead, Shade's who actually don't possess anything, again according to Daylen, a wolf that in turn created werewolves. I've seen templars, men and women who fight mages, also get enthralled by the demons. I've seen a powerful Warden-Commander who wasn't a mage get possessed by a demon when the veil was torn, and then lived for centuries.

Should I ever encounter a spirit or demon outside the Fade, the thing to do is kill it as quickly as possible. I've never personally seen a possessed dwarf, and by the ancestors I don't want to be the first!

I have received a letter from King Alistair explaining the templars have left the chantry and are now hunting mages openly. The templars are dependent on Lyrium, and the mages themselves also require lyrium, so I must look to the protection of the surface dwarves and members of the merchant caste who handle trade. I expect they'll both come to Orzammar with expectations of support. I also expect they'll both become even more desperate for lyrium if the war extends itself.

Desperate enough to maybe attack Orzammar.

I no intention of allowing any dwarf experience the horror an abomination can unleash. Neither do I want the surfacers put at risk of bringing their surfacer ideas here. I may just close the doors of Orzammar entirely if their demands grow unreasonable. But we need the trade with the surface, and we need aid with the darkspawn.

If they want our lyrium, they can come earn it in the Deep Roads. If they do not want that, then they can have their surface problems stay on the surface.

We in Orzammar want nothing to do with magic, the templars Maker who abandoned them twice, or any of the problems that come with it.

The Fade is a realm best left untouched. As the only ones not connected, it is best if we stay as far away as we possibly can.

Thorin Aedeucan

Paragon, Warden-Commander of Orzammar.

Two different views as close to the perspective of two wardens in the way I roleplayed their personalities. I hope this is considered to be remaining on topic and also encourages more discussion.

Modifié par dragonflight288, 29 juin 2013 - 04:24 .

[Ieldra]

@dragonflight:
Nice write-up. Definitely in the spirit of this thread - since you expressed concerns. If I may point out a little oddity: it is decidedly ironic for Daylen to speak about "doing his job in peace" when his job is to kill darkspawn and he mentions this in the same sentence. I suggest a change of phrasing.

[Ieldra]

IceHawk-181 wrote
If a population is able to wield deliberative authority concerning the application of restrictions upon their liberty then they alleviate the slavery concern. It evolves then into an issue of protecting liberties and balancing liberty and safety under the aegis of the consent of the governed.
 
If the College of Magi was given sovereign authority over all Mages and then provided a means for Mages to voice their opinions within that sovereign system we would be set.
 
This would literally be the Mages offering a compact of civilization, a contractual obligation that would transform the relationship from domination to one of consent.
 
The Circles would no longer be institutional domination of mages but would effectively transform into the institutional expression of the popular will of Mages. (Literally, the Leviathan in a Hobbseian sense)
 
And that is the key.
 
Within the contract you can still have individuals prosecuted and you can still wield the necessary violence to punish crimes. However, you now do so under the authority of the community.
 
The obvious conceit is that Mages do exist as an insular and fundamentally different, and in extreme cases potentially dangerous, class of people.
 
So a degree of restriction would be necessitated in the name of the Common Good (in this case mandatory education) however individual rights would not be subsumed under an arbitrary authority.

That would mean:
(1) There is a mage community the laws of which a mage is subject to by virtue of having magical talent.
(2) There is a compact between the non-mage and the mage community about who has jurisdiction where, based on the principle that the mage community can regulate its own affairs as far as it doesn't affect the non-mage community, and that mages otherwise have the same rights and obligations and are subject to the same laws as non-mages in interactions with non-mages and the general public.
(3) Special rules need to be made about potentially unlawful actions of an intrinsically magical nature, such as mind control or calling up spirits.   

Hmm....I wonder. Does anyone know if mind reading by magic is possible? Spirits can do it with no effort at all, so I guess it should be possible in principle for a mage to learn this. That would open a can of worms bigger than the possession and mind control issue, since both of the latter are obvious at least to the victim.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 29 juin 2013 - 09:28 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

IceHawk-181 wrote...

Insofar as the Blight-level threat argument.

Canonically Mages and their abilities exist in a spectrum.
Some are capable of immense feats of power and others struggle to so much as light a candle.

Mages are not inherently powerful and do not all present a "level a city block" level threat.

They are ALL living portals to the Fade.
And as such ALL present such a treat when they go abomination.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Meh...Meredith was gunning for a RoA before that, and not without reason.
The Kirkwall circle was unruly and filled with blood mages.

Yes, the Chantry being blown up was an excuse, but...one very big but:

- Why should Meredith belive Anders? Every single competent assasin in the world, if caught, will deny he was working for anyone. OF COURSE Anders would say he did it alone and has no ties to the Circle. Anyone with half a brain would say that.

- The Circle was rife for a culling anyway.

Are you trolling? Because the alternative is that you mean it, and I find it disturbing how you're justifing the mass murder of people with them being "unruly" and refer to it as "culling."

Dead serious.

Kill a few to safeguard the many. It is a rational choice, not a moral one.
Morality, being largely subjective and emotions clouding judgment, cannot be the sole deciding factor in such big decisions.

[Lotion Soronarr]

[quote]TTTX wrote...

Kirkwall itself had blood mages most of them were either from Tevinter or apostates, the Circle itself not really at least not until at the time of act 3, but at that point the Circle were pushed pretty far by Meredith as she tightened her grip on both Kirkwall and the Circle which not many were happy about that includes none mages. If you keep pushing someone, sooner or later they push back, mages are still people even with their powers.[/quote]

The Circle was corrupt. That much was obvious,. So many links to the circle, so many bad mages.

[quote]
Meredith also has no proof that Anders was working with the Circle, she can't just call out RoA like she did, she still needed to investigate the matter properly, not to mention she needed the necessary approval from a grand cleric.[/quote]

Irrelevant.
Anders is NOT the reason to call for the RoA. The general state of the Circle is.



[quote]
There is also that little fact that the Circle also houses children RoA require them to die as well and you can't convince me that they deserve to die as well.[/qutoe]

Deserve?
Life is not about what one deserves.