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[IceHawk-181]

Anders, by the end of DA2, is a sociopath twisted by a Spirit of Vengeance. (and his own issues....)

And what in Jowan's personality leads you to assume he is willing to sacrifice Innocent Life?
He dabbled with Blood Magic to make himself a better Mage, eventually realizing it was folly, and abandoned it and desired to abandon Magic altogether. He even tells the Warden-Mage that Blood Magic is a bad idea, dissuading him/her when they express the idea that there is not a problem with it.

When faced with Templars, the very people prepared to render him Tranquil, Jowan only resorted to Blood Magic to render them unconscious so he and Lilly could escape.

He could have easily killed the entire Templar force if he so chose, but he did not.

And that is the fundamental point here, choice.

Ability and potentiality do not prefigure Free Will.

What Huyna states, the Spock "Needs of the Many," trope is only true to a point.

Free Society is built upon the concept that individuals enjoy the freedom to choose and are only punished if they chose to harm others.

All people have the potential to do great harm (look at the Newton Massacre in RL) however the vast majority of people (the other 80-Million USA Gun owners) would never countenance such a thing as sane, let alone acceptable.

Free Society is a choice; either you embrace the notion that an individual is an important and sacrosanct thing with inherent rights that cannot be arbitrarily rendered nonexistent unless they actually do harm, or else you endorse the concept of wielding majoritarian despotism and trampling of 49% of the population for the sake of the other 51%.

Modifié par IceHawk-181, 22 juin 2013 - 04:25 .

[Ieldra]

@MisterJB:
About coexistence: I would actually have promoted mages creating their own nation and culture, leaving the lands where they'd been oppressed behind, but there are mage children born to non-mages and vice versa so that won't work.

As for the real-world comparisons: those don't work because we don't have people with destructive powers which can't be separated from them, but the difference between "locking away someone because they might use their fists to kill someone" and doing the same with a mage is one of degree, not quality. Where you draw the line is by default arbitrary, but regardless of where you draw it or if you draw one at all, it does not justify subjecting people to the treatment mages get in circles - see frostajulies' comment. Also, you appear to disregard some of the psychological effects. There is no better means to make mages lose any consideration for the non-mages than segregating them by force. If you want mages to keep the well-being of non-mages in mind and not take reckless risks with their powers in their presence, there is no better means than letting them make connections. Isolation breeds disregard. That goes both ways. Isolation breeds suspicion on the non-mage side. The only rationale for segregation I can accept is for training, and that only until the mage has learned control and without representatives of an enemy ideology hovering over them constantly.

About Tranquility: some mages are so much in fear of their power that they ask for it. I don't have a problem with that. The problems start when you make people Tranquil forcibly who never did anything to merit it, without any kind of precedent, just on the possibility that they might do something. That's not acceptable. Jowan practiced blood magic, but he never caused any harm until he was cornered.

About Fade spirits: the classifications follow Chantry doctrine, and Chantry doctrine is dominated by its notions of sin. The events in "Asunder" show us that this might just be a little narrow-minded and that we might want to look at the nature of Fade spirits anew. Rhys' statement in "Asunder" points in the same direction. In modern language, we're looking for a new scientific paradigm because the old one is too biased. A paradigm dominated by an ideological doctrine usually leads to suppression. Lambert's behaviour is just a piece of hard evidence for something you can expect to exist much more pervasively.

[BlueMagitek]

IceHawk-181 wrote...
And what in Jowan's personality leads you to assume he is willing to sacrifice Innocent Life?
He dabbled with Blood Magic to make himself a better Mage, eventually realizing it was folly, and abandoned it and desired to abandon Magic altogether. He even tells the Warden-Mage that Blood Magic is a bad idea, dissuading him/her when they express the idea that there is not a problem with it.

When faced with Templars, the very people prepared to render him Tranquil, Jowan only resorted to Blood Magic to render them unconscious so he and Lilly could escape.

He could have easily killed the entire Templar force if he so chose, but he did not.

And that is the fundamental point here, choice.

Ability and potentiality do not prefigure Free Will.

What Huyna states, the Spock "Needs of the Many," trope is only true to a point.

Free Society is built upon the concept that individuals enjoy the freedom to choose and are only punished if they chose to harm others.

All people have the potential to do great harm (look at the Newton Massacre in RL) however the vast majority of people (the other 80-Million USA Gun owners) would never countenance such a thing as sane, let alone acceptable.

Free Society is a choice; either you embrace the notion that an individual is an important and sacrosanct thing with inherent rights that cannot be arbitrarily rendered nonexistent unless they actually do harm, or else you endorse the concept of wielding majoritarian despotism and trampling of 49% of the population for the sake of the other 51%.

Jowan admits to the Mage PC that he did it because he was jealous; Redcliffe Dungeon.

Also, the entire "free society" thing, doesn't describe Thedas at all.  Depending on your location, slavery (actual slavery), human (or elf) sacrifice, disownment to death, rape and murder are all legal.  It is perfectly acceptable to break a casteless' knees because you felt like it.  So please don't try to bring up any modern argument about rights when you're talking about Thedas.  There really aren't all that many to go around.

[IceHawk-181]

BlueMagitek wrote...
Jowan admits to the Mage PC that he did it because he was jealous; Redcliffe Dungeon.

Also, the entire "free society" thing, doesn't describe Thedas at all.  Depending on your location, slavery (actual slavery), human (or elf) sacrifice, disownment to death, rape and murder are all legal.  It is perfectly acceptable to break a casteless' knees because you felt like it.  So please don't try to bring up any modern argument about rights when you're talking about Thedas.  There really aren't all that many to go around.

This is seriously your argument?
 
That individual rights are a function of modern society and therefore it is acceptable to foist a system of subjugation and slavery upon a people because their contemporary political leaders operate on the concept that might makes right?
 
I take it you are one of the "Rights are a Function of Government allowances" people then...
 
Also, Jowan's motivation for dabbling in Blood Magic (Jealousy) is tossed aside once he has Lilly; he is done with Magic. Period.

[MisterJB]

Ieldra2 wrote...
About coexistence: I would actually have promoted mages creating their own nation and culture, leaving the lands where they'd been oppressed behind, but there are mage children born to non-mages and vice versa so that won't work.

Plus, any mage nation would eventually dominate those around it either militarily or economically so, yeah. It doesn't work.

As for the real-world comparisons: those don't work because we don't have people with destructive powers which can't be separated from them, but the difference between "locking away someone because they might use their fists to kill someone" and doing the same with a mage is one of degree, not quality. Where you draw the line is by default arbitrary,

True but a line must be drawn. The differences between using a sword or using magic are obvious; this because it's not a matter of "a non-mage soldier can just as easily kill with a sword as a mage can with a fireball" but it's a matter of "a mage child accomplished what only a trained small army of warriors could have".

but regardless of where you draw it or if you draw one at all, it does not justify subjecting people to the treatment mages get in circles - see frostajulies' comment.

That, itself, is arbitrary. I can say the Circly employs only what is utmost necessary to protect the people when the subject in question is so vague.

Also, you appear to disregard some of the psychological effects. There is no better means to make mages lose any consideration for the non-mages than segregating them by force. If you want mages to keep the well-being of non-mages in mind and not take reckless risks with their powers in their presence, there is no better means than letting them make connections. Isolation breeds disregard. That goes both ways. Isolation breeds suspicion on the non-mage side. The only rationale for segregation I can accept is for training, and that only until the mage has learned control

I'm actually in full agreement with this. I've argued in the past that the Circle needs to act more as a bridge between these two groups of people.
What I've always balked at was the notion of mages living outside of the Circle and having roles in society.

without representatives of an enemy ideology hovering over them constantly.

Only non-mages not paid by the mages can be trusted with watching over mages. The use of religion simply helps ensure their commitment to their duties and not to gold.

About Tranquility: some mages are so much in fear of their power that they ask for it. I don't have a problem with that. The problems start when you make people Tranquil forcibly who never did anything to merit it, without any kind of precedent, just on the possibility that they might do something. That's not acceptable. Jowan practiced blood magic, but he never caused any harm until he was cornered.

Sometimes, mages are simply too dangerous. For instance, Feynriel. He doesn't seem like a particularly bad person; just a regular one with vices and virtues. But that doesn't mean he should be trusted with the power to reshape the world at will.
Jowan, likewise, it's not a bad person. But blood magic is just too corruptible. The very nature of it encourages people to kill others in gruesome fashion (WoT page 109). It has its uses, certainly but it should be used only by experienced and trustworthy mages and in controled environments. Not a randow apprentice who is just as likely to fry an egg as bringing the tower down.
Therefore, the templars had to take a stance. Blood magic is forbidden, period. Tranquilise him.

About Fade spirits: the classifications follow Chantry doctrine, and Chantry doctrine is dominated by its notions of sin. The events in "Asunder" show us that this might just be a little narrow-minded and that we might want to look at the nature of Fade spirits anew. Rhys' statement in "Asunder" points in the same direction. In modern language, we're looking for a new scientific paradigm because the old one is too biased. A paradigm dominated by an ideological doctrine usually leads to suppression. Lambert's behaviour is just a piece of hard evidence for something you can expect to exist much more pervasively.

I think that now you are seeing what you expect to see than what it's actually there. Have you considered the possibility that the classifications of demons is what originated Chantry doctrine (as in, observe the demons and due to that realize they embody certain negative characteristics of humanity).
Just because it's what usually happens, doesn't mean it's happening here.

[Ieldra]

jtav wrote...
What are we to with a man like Jowan, though? He's not an evil man, but he does seem precisely the sort the Rite was designed for?

I'd propose this. Turn the Circle into a boarding school. A mage stays there until he passes his Harrowing. His phylactery is kept. He is allowed to move to any city he pleases, but must meet regularly with an assigned templar (Lothering has templars; I imagine most decent-sized towns do). He cannot move without the permission of the ranking templar. Bribery, etc. gets you sent back to the Circle.

As I said, mandatory education at a location specially equipped to contain magical accidents is a prudent measure and  perfectly acceptable. Even adding a few years of public service to pay for the expenses may be. Permanent surveillance (i.e. phylactery) however, is only acceptable for people who have done something to merit it, and likewise are measures equal to our probation rules unless they're temporary. 

Cases where someone dabbled in blood magic but didn't cause any actual harm are a separate issue. I still have to make up my mind about that. If you let Jowan go, you find him later spending his time helping a group of refugees to escape from the Blight. It doesn't appear that the risks of blood magic as such are all that great.

[MisterJB]

Really? How can anyone argue with phylacteries? I mean, let's assume a world where mages are free to walk and live amongst the normal population.
You'd be opposed to taking some blood so they can't avoid pursuit should they break the law? Really?

[IceHawk-181]

The outcome of the Jowan story-line is a great example.

Jowan is willing to use Blood Magic again in order to help save Connor from a Demon, is willing to go into the Fade and confront the Demon himself, or if sent off will actually work to save people from the blight.

I do not see a streak of malevolent madness and Demon-infused terror emanating from him...I see a confused and depressed individual who does the right thing in the end....

Which brings us back to choice; the Chantry substitutes Religious Tradition and Divine Certainty in the place of Free Will and judges all Mages a priori.

[IceHawk-181]

Filament wrote...

It seems to me the fundamental distinction in these mage-templar debates is that the pro-templars always start with the sort of Hobbesian assumption that human nature is fundamentally bad or selfish to the extreme and can only be tempered by absolute control over their lives. Maybe this isn't applied to ordinary individuals, but when "their backs are against the wall" and they are faced with people as potentially dangerous as mages, it becomes the only way to be sure the masses are safe.

Personally I think with respect for rule of law and cultivation of morals to respect others' personal sovereignty at all times (with all their "mage privilege" they ought to have time to study ethics, right?) there can be looser restrictions on mage freedom without sacrificing the safety of the masses...

Furthermore, it is a fundamental misunderstanding of the Hobbseian concept of civilization. There is a fundamental compact in which individuals willingly restrict their actions in order to achieve coexistence with one another. It does not need to be compelled.
 
Solid post, right to the First Principle.

[Ieldra]

@MisterJB:
About Fade spirits: I wouldn't have written what I did about the classifications and how ideologies create biased paradigms without the hint of "Asunder" that it may actually be so. Of course, being less biased also means being open to the possibility that the old ideology was correct. At the moment I see the evidence pointing in my direction, but it's perfectly possible that the Chantry was right all along. DAI will tell, hopefully.
(Actually, what I think may be the case is that the dominent ideology shapes the Fade's reality. If that's the case, theres even more reason to question the Chantry's teachings)

About mage domination: No, I don't believe mage nations would dominate those around them. There are far fewer mages than non-mages, so mage nations would necessarily be smaller. Also, there are the effects of technology to consider.

About oversight by representatives of an enemy ideology: the difference between a secular (for lack of a better word) oversight and a religious one is that the Chantry connects mages to the story of the Golden City and the darkspawn. The templars are, as I said, predisposed to revile mages on ideological grounds, while a secular power would simply classify them as dangerous. It's like you specially appoint ultra-nationalists to patrol areas with a high population of immigrants. It's a recipe for disaster.

[Ieldra]

MisterJB wrote...
You'd be opposed to taking some blood so they can't avoid pursuit should they break the law? Really?

Then you wouldn't be opposed to have ID chips implanted in everyone - or everyone who possesses a weapon - in RL?

[IceHawk-181]

MisterJB wrote...

Really? How can anyone argue with phylacteries? I mean, let's assume a world where mages are free to walk and live amongst the normal population.
You'd be opposed to taking some blood so they can't avoid pursuit should they break the law? Really?

I assume your DNA and Fingerprints are on file with the FBI and happily so yes?

[jtav]

A weapon they can never get rid of, responds in some degree to their mood and is capable of levelling whole city blocks? Yes, I'd put the chips in.

[IceHawk-181]

So if I am reading the responses from a number of threads correctly the Pro-Templar POV maintains:

1) Individual Rights can be violated if the potential for a threat exists, a crime need not be committed
2) Forcible Subjugation and Psychological or Physical Death without due process is acceptable
3) Constant surveillance "just in case" is reasonable

Apply these to real life and tell me what kind of world you are living in....and hope to hell you are just one of the "normals."

Modifié par IceHawk-181, 22 juin 2013 - 05:25 .

[IceHawk-181]

jtav wrote...

A weapon they can never get rid of, responds in some degree to their mood and is capable of levelling whole city blocks? Yes, I'd put the chips in.

Weird, I know of numerous individuals who always carry a firearm or have one handy and they have never once shot someone because they became annoyed...
 
The assumption that Mages, by virtue of being Mages, are somehow incapable of rationality like a normal human being is spurious at best.
 

[MisterJB]

Ieldra2 wrote...
Then you wouldn't be opposed to have ID chips implanted in everyone - or everyone who possesses a weapon - in RL?

If that weapon is capable of bringing down a city, can't be searched for or aphrended and it's open to being used by alien forces who wish for nothing but to bring suffering to others?
Yes. In fact, I'd be the first to volunteer. It seems to me a perfectly reasonable precaution.

Modifié par MisterJB, 22 juin 2013 - 05:26 .

[wolfhowwl]

IceHawk-181 wrote...

So if I am reading the responses from a number of threads correctly the Pro-Templar POV maintains:

1) Individual Rights can be violated if the potential for a threat exists, a crime need not be permitted
2) Forcible Subjugation and Psychological or Physical Death without due process is acceptable
3) Constant surveillance "just in case" is reasonable

Apply these to real life and tell me what kind of world you are living in....and hope to hell you are just one of the "normals."

Who in "real life" possesses the kind of power mages do? No civilian weaponry in our world can equal a mage's capacity for destruction.

[Ieldra]

IceHawk-181 wrote...
So if I am reading the responses from a number of threads correctly the Pro-Templar POV maintains:

1) Individual Rights can be violated if the potential for a threat exists, a crime need not be committed
2) Forcible Subjugation and Psychological or Physical Death without due process is acceptable
3) Constant surveillance "just in case" is reasonable

Apply these to real life and tell me what kind of world you are living in....and hope to hell you are just one of the "normals."

One thing to add: those responsible for judgment and implementation of those measures think your ancestors are responsible for the world's greatest evils.

*shudder*

[MisterJB]

Ieldra2 wrote...
About mage domination: No, I don't believe mage nations would dominate those around them. There are far fewer mages than non-mages, so mage nations would necessarily be smaller. Also, there are the effects of technology to consider.

Mages have always been less numerous than non-mages and Tevinter exists. The application of magic towards the hoarding of wealth is obvious; for instance, in one of the comics, there is a young mage girl who knows only one spell and yet she's capable of making steel stronger than that of dwarven-make meaning even a small group of mages could dominate the metallurgy industry; wealth that would be used to economically dominate the nations around it as every other nations tries to do.

That is if technology is ever going to appear in Thedas. I believe that the use of technology to bridgen the gap between mundanes and mages is the true solution to this conundrum but there are no signs of Thedas developing electricity anytime soon. I daresay this is partially to blame on the existence of magic. Cultures that rely less on magic such as the dwarves and the Qun are more advanced than the human nations of Thedas.

About oversight by representatives of an enemy ideology: the difference between a secular (for lack of a better word) oversight and a religious one is that the Chantry connects mages to the story of the Golden City and the darkspawn. The templars are, as I said, predisposed to revile mages on ideological grounds, while a secular power would simply classify them as dangerous. It's like you specially appoint ultra-nationalists to patrol areas with a high population of immigrants. It's a recipe for disaster.

That is true and ideally we could focus simply on the dangers of magic. But religion is more pervasive than almost anything else in Thedas and what is ideal is not always what is likely to happen.
If the choice is between overzealous templars and templars who can be brided by the Lucrosians into foregoing their duties, I'm going with option A.

Modifié par MisterJB, 22 juin 2013 - 05:34 .

[Ieldra]

As for "mages need constant surveillance because they're more dangerous"

Consider an alternative:

"Mages need training and tests before they are allowed to move around freely in society. These tests should involve measures to determine how they react to emotional stress and are to be repeated every five years."

I propose that mages are seen not to much as potential criminals or walking disasters and more like people who must learn to handle some particularly dangerous materials.

[jtav]

I'd shorten the interval considerably, but I suppose I could live with it.

[Dave of Canada]

Answering a few points without quoting since mobile isn't working well.

The Circle of Magi trains it's individuals on how to deal with the Fade and when they feel they're ready, prepare the Harrowing to seperate wheat from the chaff. Assuming the mage successfully passes their Harrowing and they've obeyed Chantry laws, they're given privilege to leave and interact with society provided they check up with the Circle / Templar.

The Lucrosian fraternity wouldn't exist if the Circle was completely solitary, we've seen mages outside the Circles multiple times and have witnessed most of them simply proceeding over their own research / business without direct Chantry interference, the only safe measure being the Phylactery which prevents them from going rogue and hiding out.

---

Research into curing Tranquility should be abolished for both the good of the Templar Order and the Circle of Magi.

For the Templar, it's one of the Templar's greatest "humane" ways to eliminate unlawful mages without need for execution and allows mages who undergo such a process to live their lives normally outside the Circle should they wish to. Opening up curing research means it'll have to be replaced with execution--something which people on these forums would consider just as immoral--or have severe limitations imposed on Tranquil so they're not cured outside the Circle without the Templar's knowledge.

For the Mage, it's one of their biggest assets in terms of financial gain and resources. While they might not have the Circle of Magi's trade contacts which the Chantry established, underground enchanted goods trading will supply them financially for their war effort. Post-war they'll still need financial means of sustaining the Circles, something which the Tranquil help at accomplishing.

The only good coming from curing Tranquility would be for the individual who was made tranquil against their will or the Mages when they're lacking the proper numbers to fight back (and the few Tranquil aren't going to help when it comes to that), though they'd have to deal with the consequences of bringing back people who were deemed dangerous by the system.

A cured tranquil who has at risk of possession will be once again, perhaps putting mages in an unfavorable position.

---

Allowing mages freedom would fundamentally change how society is, we won't see peace and tolerance prevail as war ravages Thedas. The Chantry itself is a neutral organization which has kept it's assets seperate from the warring of kingdoms, allowing them only to serve when a larger threat presents itself which threatens the entire land.

Releasing mages won't have them be free, they'd be reimprisoned in the shackles of the monarch who deems their powers vital in his efforts to conquer neighboring kingdoms. Warfare would be dictated by whomever can have the most mages and how powerful they are, prompting the use of human sacrifice. The mundanes being sent to war would simply be meat shields for their mage superiors.

Assuming mages want "true" freedom, they'd need to overthrow all of society and place a system which places them at the top of the food chain where they can be free to oppose anyone who'd try to shackle them. Such a system creates a dog-eat-dog mentality and we've got the more powerful rising to positions of influence.

Tevinter is recreated.

EDIT: Alternative scenario is a kingdom losing the war would make mages commit a scorched earth strategy, potentially leaving entire farmlands / cities in ruin.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 22 juin 2013 - 06:26 .

[LobselVith8]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Research into curing Tranquility should be abolished for both the good of the Templar Order and the Circle of Magi.

For the Templar, it's one of the Templar's greatest "humane" ways to eliminate unlawful mages without need for execution and allows mages who undergo such a process to live their lives normally outside the Circle should they wish to. Opening up curing research means it'll have to be replaced with execution--something which people on these forums would consider just as immoral--or have severe limitations imposed on Tranquil so they're not cured outside the Circle without the Templar's knowledge.

The templars might see it that way, but I see nothing 'humane' about removing the emotions of a person to make the individual into little more than a puppet who is malleable enough to be used as little more than a sex slave by someone as morally bankrupt as Alrik, or who is willing to betray someone they love when the result could end in death - like Karl was willing to do to his first love, Anders.

Tranquility is something I would strongly oppose.

Dave of Canada wrote...

For the Mage, it's one of their biggest assets in terms of financial gain and resources. While they might not have the Circle of Magi's trade contacts which the Chantry established, underground enchanted goods trading will supply them financially for their war effort. Post-war they'll still need financial means of sustaining the Circles, something which the Tranquil help at accomplishing.

Dwarves also use lyrium to craft items - they actually sell only a small fraction of their lyrium to the surface, and keep the rest for themselves. As the codex notes: "The dwarves sell very little of the processed mineral to the surface, giving the greater portion of what they mine to their own smiths, who use it in the forging of all truly superior dwarven weapons and armor." Tranquil aren't mandatory to craft items from lyrium.

Dave of Canada wrote...

Allowing mages freedom would fundamentally change how society is, we won't see peace and tolerance prevail as war ravages Thedas. The Chantry itself is a neutral organization which has kept it's assets seperate from the warring of kingdoms, allowing them only to serve when a larger threat presents itself which threatens the entire land.

I'm not certain how 'neutral' the Andrastian Chantry will actually be. I have little trust in Divine Justina V. I suppose we will find out when Inquisition is finally released.

Dave of Canada wrote...

Releasing mages won't have them be free, they'd be reimprisoned in the shackles of the monarch who deems their powers vital in his efforts to conquer neighboring kingdoms. Warfare would be dictated by whomever can have the most mages and how powerful they are, prompting the use of human sacrifice. The mundanes being sent to war would simply be meat shields for their mage superiors.

We really don't know how the Mage-Templar War will come into play during the storyline. There was one rumor about the rebel templars and the autonomous mages struggling for control over territory across Thedas - that might come into play in Inquisition if it turns out to be true. Perhaps the new protagonist can help the templars or the mages gain control over certain areas - like how the templars controlled eastern Thedas through their main base of operations in Kirkwall, which is why going to the city-state was such a controversial and dangerous move for Bethany and apostate Hawke.

Dave of Canada wrote...

Assuming mages want "true" freedom, they'd need to overthrow all of society and place a system which places them at the top of the food chain where they can be free to oppose anyone who'd try to shackle them. Such a system creates a dog-eat-dog mentality and we've got the more powerful rising to positions of influence.

Tevinter is recreated.

You would need slavery, blood sacrifices, and a lot more for Tevinter to be "recreated" with this hypothetical mage state, aside from mages being in leadership positions. A Warden-Commander from the Circle certainly didn't make the arling of Amaranthine another Tevinter, after all. Nor did the kingdom of the Dales having mages as members of the nobility that governed the nation make the elven state another Tevinter.