1656 réponses à ce sujet

[BlueMagitek]

*Merrill attempted to say hello, but wound up on the wrong side of town talking to a mouse while making a deal with various spirits on the way.

[LobselVith8]

BlueMagitek wrote...

*Merrill attempted to say hello, but wound up on the wrong side of town talking to a mouse while making a deal with various spirits on the way.

Merrill never made a deal with any spirits. In fact, her discussions with Audacity were specifically with a sundered and trapped spirit that was encased in a totem by ancient and powerful magic.

[BlueMagitek]

She was very much considering a deal for that human dreamer.

And she was very much trading knowledge with a Pride demon.

[Xilizhra]

BlueMagitek wrote...

She was very much considering a deal for that human dreamer.

And she was very much trading knowledge with a Pride demon.

No, she only approves of talking and not insta-killing. And I don't think she actually gave knowledge to the pride demon.

[BlueMagitek]

Have you ever chatted with Merrill before? Since when was she just business? Knowledge almost certainly passed between them, even if it was just local knowledge of the outside world.

And she should approve of insta-killing when the bargain straight up involves handing over the kid's soul.

[Ieldra]

Medhia Nox wrote...
@Ieldra2: Ever bring up Ser Alrik? I bet you have. Why is it okay for you to appeal to the extremes? No, not every Templar everywhere supports raping Tranquil - just like every mage doesn't support blood sacrifices.

You said you're adamantly against blood magic. I find that statement odd. Blood magic is a tool. If you forbid it, it's a matter of preventive prudence. It's not that the use of blood magic as such must necessarily constitute a punishable offence. In RL, we forbid private ownership of most explosives (at least in my country) as a preventive measure, but somebody who said "I'm adamantly against explosives" would be looked upon strangely.

[LobselVith8]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Have you ever chatted with Merrill before? Since when was she just business? Knowledge almost certainly passed between them, even if it was just local knowledge of the outside world.

You have seen the scenes where Merrill speaks with Marethari about the Eluvian, correct? She is certainly focused on restoring ancient elven technology to help benefit the People.

Per the OP and the notion of a 'mage manifesto', I'm curious how Merrill would be viewed by the other Dalish clans across Thedas if she helped the Champion of Kirkwall oppose the templars at the conclusion of the narrative, since it's an example of a Dalish mage opposing one of the most powerful templars at the seat of templar power over eastern Thedas. Given the hostilities between the Dalish and the templars (who actively pursue and hunt them down), I'd be curious if she became a symbol among some of the clans in the same way that the pro-mage apostate Champion can become a positive symbol to the mages, showing that the templars can be defied.

BlueMagitek wrote...

And she should approve of insta-killing when the bargain straight up involves handing over the kid's soul.

As Xil pointed out, Merrill advocates gaining knowledge. She does not endorse selling Feynriel's soul to the Sloth Demon. Per Dragon Age II, Hawke can gain knowledge about an escape from the Deep Roads by speaking with the Profane Abomination, and he can attain valuable information about the situation with the two powerrful demons vying for control over Feynriel by speaking with the Sloth Demon.

[MWImexico]

LobselVith8 wrote...
Being able to abuse power doesn't make it inherently evil. That's the crux of the dichotomy you and I face; I'm wholly uninterested in the vilification of blood magic simply because some people abuse this school of magic, while ignoring others who don't misuse it.

I agree, however, I think one of the problems with blood magic is that there is no need for Lirium to be able to use it. If, even in the circle, a large group of mage had been allowed to use blood magic, it would have been much more difficult for the Templars to control them, if they had décided to rebel, for exemple.
An other problem with blood magic is the capability to read minds and to control people. Such power is maybe not more dangerous than the capability to throw fireballs but, it seems in any case, much easier to hide and therefore it could much facilitate crimes / abuses.
So, I'm not sure about it but I think that's the reasons why blood mages are killed preventively by the Chantry. To discourage other mages to use it.

Therefore, I think all the blood mages are not necessarily evil. Hawke's father, Alain, Merrill and Jowan do not fall into this category, in my opinion. However, about Merrill, I think if she had been given the opportunity to continue her plan, it would be she who would have been possessed and not Marethari. Not because she is a blood magic user but because she would have been tricked by the demon.

[Ieldra]

LobselVith8 wrote...
Per the OP and the notion of a 'mage manifesto', I'm curious how Merrill would be viewed by the other Dalish clans across Thedas if she helped the Champion of Kirkwall oppose the templars at the conclusion of the narrative, since it's an example of a Dalish mage opposing one of the most powerful templars at the seat of templar power over eastern Thedas. Given the hostilities between the Dalish and the templars (who actively pursue and hunt them down), I'd be curious if she became a symbol among some of the clans in the same way that the pro-mage apostate Champion can become a positive symbol to the mages, showing that the templars can be defied.

An interesting idea, but Merrill was ostracized by her clan, and at least if I play intuitively and without metagaming, her clan will get killed (if only because of the thrice-damned misleading dialogue wheel paraphrases). Not a good basis for becoming a symbol among the Dalish, though her support of Hawke will have some effect.

Apart from that. I wonder how much weight you can add to the mage cause by things like this. First you can have a mage Warden who gives the Circle of Ferelden autonomy, then you have the Warden's companions, though Morrigan is a double-edged sword. Pro-mage mage Hawke and companions, Anders as martyr to the cause. I doubt DAI will take all that into consideration except in very minor ways, but it would be interesting if it's recognized at all.

LobselVith8 wrote...
As Xil pointed out, Merrill advocates gaining knowledge. She does not endorse selling Feynriel's soul to the Sloth Demon. Per Dragon Age II, Hawke can gain knowledge about an escape from the Deep Roads by speaking with the Profane Abomination, and he can attain valuable information about the situation with the two powerrful demons vying for control over Feynriel by speaking with the Sloth Demon.

Gaining knowledge, yes. That's why I often support Merrill in her quest. I find the Chantry's suppression of knowledge every bit as annoying as the oppression of the mages. My main Hawke believed she could've kept Merrill from doing something stupid dealing with the demon, only Marethari did her thing first. Such a waste. 

Modifié par Ieldra2, 04 juillet 2013 - 07:43 .

[LobselVith8]

MWImexico wrote...

Therefore, I think all the blood mages are not necessarily evil. Hawke's father, Alain, Merrill and Jowan do not fall into this category, in my opinion. However, about Merrill, I think if she had been given the opportunity to continue her plan, it would be she who would have been possessed and not Marethari. Not because she is a blood magic user but because she would have been tricked by the demon. 

I think Audacity's plan was to possess Marethari all along, since it is likely the source behind the Keeper's assumption that it could escape through the restored Eluvian. Interestingly, Merrill even tells an aggressive Hawke that she won't release Audacity from its prison.

[TheKomandorShepard]

I wonder whether my mages playthrough will have some impact i played both hawke and warden as promage in warden case i many times i have expressed rather negative attitude to chantry as in awakening i support mage rebelion when i talk with wynne and freed circle in ending only thing i do that some quest from chantry board beacause i play as good and heroic character.And as hawke in every opportunity free mages and support them when i could.

But somone can explain to me how it is with magi boon in internet some claims that chantry said no and nothing changes but in DA 2 bartender and Merething when meets Alistair says otherwise

[LobselVith8]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

I wonder whether my mages playthrough will have some impact i played both hawke and warden as promage in warden case i many times i have expressed rather negative attitude to chantry as in awakening i support mage rebelion when i talk with wynne and freed circle in ending only thing i do that some quest from chantry board beacause i play as good and heroic character.And as hawke in every opportunity free mages and support them when i could.

But somone can explain to me how it is with magi boon in internet some claims that chantry said no and nothing changes but in DA 2 bartender and Merething when meets Alistair says otherwise

Because the Magi Boon was rectonned. Irving profusely thanks the Hero of Ferelden for freeing the Circle from their "shackles" during the royal ceremony, while the Epilogue reads how Cullen lost his mind as a consequence of this royal boon, killing mages and becoming a madman, and the independent Circle of Orzammar doesn't form from the research Dagna published since the Circle of Ferelden is already independent.

In Dragon Age II, the bartender is "misinformed", while Meredith makes note about how the ruler of Ferelden had no authority to free the mages from the Chantry of Andraste and the Order of Templars.

[TheKomandorShepard]

LobselVith8 wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

I wonder whether my mages playthrough will have some impact i played both hawke and warden as promage in warden case i many times i have expressed rather negative attitude to chantry as in awakening i support mage rebelion when i talk with wynne and freed circle in ending only thing i do that some quest from chantry board beacause i play as good and heroic character.And as hawke in every opportunity free mages and support them when i could.

But somone can explain to me how it is with magi boon in internet some claims that chantry said no and nothing changes but in DA 2 bartender and Merething when meets Alistair says otherwise

Because the Magi Boon was rectonned. Irving profusely thanks the Hero of Ferelden for freeing the Circle from their "shackles" during the royal ceremony, while the Epilogue reads how Cullen lost his mind as a consequence of this royal boon, killing mages and becoming a madman, and the independent Circle of Orzammar doesn't form from the research Dagna published since the Circle of Ferelden is already independent.

In Dragon Age II, the bartender is "misinformed", while Meredith makes note about how the ruler of Ferelden had no authority to free the mages from the Chantry of Andraste and the Order of Templars.

O crap i wasted my wish i could take money or power at least maybe that would have some impact .
But thanks for answer.

[LobselVith8]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...
O crap i wasted my wish i could take money or power at least maybe that would have some impact .
But thanks for answer.

My Surana Warden asked for the same thing - and I don’t think it’s a waste. A mage turned national hero is publicly asking for the freedom of his people from an institution that some condemn as slavery, and the ruler of Ferelden is proclaiming to the people that mages have earned the right to govern themselves. For me, that’s more important than a title or riches. Imagine the irrevocable impact that would have on countless men, women, and children living in the Chantry controlled Circles, to hear that a hero – one of their own – is asking for autonomy for his people instead of power or wealth.

Even with the recton, I imagine that would have a ripple effect across the continent.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 04 juillet 2013 - 08:51 .

[TheKomandorShepard]

I doubt that would have big impact if chantry said no for some time after that sure peoples would talk but after few years peoples forget.But when you take money or power you can actually start act against and with having money and own army.For me that wish is like siding with mages at end da 2 you gain only faith in victory but folks still support chantry no matter how heroic hawke you played even as mage.

[vpacheco1984]

I think blood magic can be a tool used for the greater good but it is also a slippery slope. But the same could be said for a great many things in both the DA universe and real life. I'm not saying I support the use of blood magic, in fact that I never played as a blood mage, tried but couldn't do it but I can see as a tool as long as it is used under the strictest of guidelines.

[MWImexico]

Ieldra2 wrote...
Gaining knowledge, yes. That's why I often support Merrill in her quest. I find the Chantry's suppression of knowledge every bit as annoying as the oppression of the mages. My main Hawke believed she could've kept Merrill from doing something stupid dealing with the demon, only Marethari did her thing first. Such a waste. 

I don't know, I'm not sure she would have listened. Many people are conned because they believe the game is worth the candle when it's not. Perhaps the most difficult part is not to keep her from doing a stupid thing but to help her understand she is doing a stupid thing? The death of Marethari serves this purpose in her character developement, it can create some sort of epiphany. But I'm not sure in fact, I rival her almost all the time, I've forget what she says in the end if Hawke chooses the friendship path.

[LobselVith8]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

I doubt that would have big impact if chantry said no for some time after that sure peoples would talk but after few years peoples forget.But when you take money or power you can actually start act against and with having money and own army.For me that wish is like siding with mages at end da 2 you gain only faith in victory but folks still support chantry no matter how heroic hawke you played even as mage.

I think the Hero of Ferelden and it's ruler advocating autonomy for mages would carry tremendous weight when the Chantry has voiced the opposite for almost a thousand years. Mages having a hero; Circle mages fleeing their Circles to find some sanctuary in Ferelden. And becoming a noble with money, power, and a title is already possible as the Warden-Commander, when you become the new Arl of Amaranthine. A mage Warden-Commander becoming a high noble, with lesser nobles swearing fealty to him.

The Hero of the Fifth Blight advocating independence for the mages? The ruler of Ferelden publicly agreeing with a free Circle of Magi? A mage governing the City of Amaranthine, it's army, and the nation's Warden order? This would have an irrevocable impact.

As for the Champion, he can become another rallying cry by opposing Meredith and protecting the mages.

[MisterJB]

LobselVith8 wrote...
I think the Hero of Ferelden and it's ruler advocating autonomy for mages would carry tremendous weight when the Chantry has voiced the opposite for almost a thousand years. Mages having a hero; Circle mages fleeing their Circles to find some sanctuary in Ferelden.

Are you aware that immigration has always been a source of conflict? It's true, for diverse reasons, immigrants and the native population just tend to not get along very well. It's human nature, there's nothing to it.
Now, picture if you will, that these immigrants also have the power to kill you and your family with a thought and that the most influential religion in the known world will suddenly start to violently preache against these immigrants to the already fearful fereldans. The result is, obviously, people getting angry and restless and restless peasants are the last thing a nobleman needs. So, what do these nobles do? They put pressure on their ruler, of course. "Get rid of the bleeding mages and close the borders!"
The Warden being a mage will have about the same effect as the Warden being a City Elf had in dissuading the citizens of Denerim from further riots.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

The exploits of an elven warden didn't permanently increase the popular opinion of dalish or city elves in Ferelden. There was some improvement for a time, but afterward the goodwill faded. It can even happen to the effects of a Dwarven Warden's contributions to Ferelden.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 05 juillet 2013 - 08:42 .

[Ieldra]

Here's something that occurred to me as I was writing up that legal document I proposed:

Why aren't templars treated like mages? They have magical abilities while under the influence of lyrium (DG confirmed that templars' abilities are a form of magic in an interview I linked to abovethread somewhere), they're always under the influence of lyrium so they always have magical abilities. As evidenced by the games they're subject to demonic possession and since it's the use of magic that makes mages interesting to demons that would also apply to templars using their abilities. On top of that, templars don't even undergo a Harrowing.

One wonders if it isn't much safer in the company of a mage than a templar....

[DKJaigen]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Here's something that occurred to me as I was writing up that legal document I proposed:

Why aren't templars treated like mages? They have magical abilities while under the influence of lyrium (DG confirmed that templars' abilities are a form of magic in an interview I linked to abovethread somewhere), they're always under the influence of lyrium so they always have magical abilities. As evidenced by the games they're subject to demonic possession and since it's the use of magic that makes mages interesting to demons that would also apply to templars using their abilities. On top of that, templars don't even undergo a Harrowing.

One wonders if it isn't much safer in the company of a mage than a templar....

Good point. Templar supporters have a tendency to ignore the fact that you encounter bucketload of corrupted templars. With the fade torn open i believe that templars are worse of then the mages. You need great mental integrity to combat demons and templars simply dont have the training and their minds are rotten out by the lyrium they drink. So far we have not encounterd a single templar that was able to hold his ground against the demons.

And yet these are the people the templar supportes pin their hopes upon to safe thedas. Well this might have worked for a while but a real ****storm is coming and templars are simply not sufficient for the task ahead.

[MisterJB]

Ieldra2 wrote...
Why aren't templars treated like mages?

Because Templar abilities don't affect normal people. Alistair confirms this and it makes sense since Templar abilities are focused around disrupting mana which normal people don't possess.

 

As evidenced by the games they're subject to demonic possession

As is every other no-mage but only if a mage forces a demon into the person.
Meaning, the mages are still the ones to be feared.

and since it's the use of magic that makes mages interesting to demons that would also apply to templars using their abilities.

And yet it doesn't seem to do since we have never been told templars have a greater tendency to attract demons or seen a Templar being tormented in his sleep by one. Even in Kirkwall, where the Veil was paper thin, the Templars would only be possessed if a mage forced a demon into them.

[Xilizhra]

Because Templar abilities don't affect normal people. Alistair confirms this and it makes sense since Templar abilities are focused around disrupting mana which normal people don't possess.

Holy Smite.

[Herr Uhl]

MisterJB wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
As evidenced by the games they're subject to demonic possession

As is every other no-mage but only if a mage forces a demon into the person.
Meaning, the mages are still the ones to be feared.

Doesn't have to be forced or forced by a mage. There is wiggle room for mundanes to be idiots.

But from every lore indication, posessing a templar would be harder than someone that isn't a templar.