1656 réponses à ce sujet

[MisterJB]

Xilizhra wrote...
Holy Smite.

Gameplay-Story segregation, it doesn' actually work like that.
Otherwise, maybe the Champion Class can scream so hard it makes an Ogre falls on its back.

[LobselVith8]

MisterJB wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
I think the Hero of Ferelden and it's ruler advocating autonomy for mages would carry tremendous weight when the Chantry has voiced the opposite for almost a thousand years. Mages having a hero; Circle mages fleeing their Circles to find some sanctuary in Ferelden.

Are you aware that immigration has always been a source of conflict? It's true, for diverse reasons, immigrants and the native population just tend to not get along very well. It's human nature, there's nothing to it.
Now, picture if you will, that these immigrants also have the power to kill you and your family with a thought and that the most influential religion in the known world will suddenly start to violently preache against these immigrants to the already fearful fereldans. The result is, obviously, people getting angry and restless and restless peasants are the last thing a nobleman needs. So, what do these nobles do? They put pressure on their ruler, of course. "Get rid of the bleeding mages and close the borders!"
The Warden being a mage will have about the same effect as the Warden being a City Elf had in dissuading the citizens of Denerim from further riots. 

 

Nearly a decade later, King Alistair is protecting apostates from the templars. He's still arguing for and agrees with mage autonomy. I guess I simply don't share your pessimism about the ramifications of the Hero of Ferelden from the Circle asking for his people to be free, and being a symbol to others.

[Xilizhra]

MisterJB wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
Holy Smite.

Gameplay-Story segregation, it doesn' actually work like that.
Otherwise, maybe the Champion Class can scream so hard it makes an Ogre falls on its back.

Not the same thing. The Champion move question is just one of the animation used, but I don't see how you can handwave "magical damaging force blast."

[MisterJB]

Herr Uhl wrote...
Doesn't have to be forced or forced by a mage. There is wiggle room for mundanes to be idiots.

The one time we did see a normal dealing with a demon (Lady Harriman), she wasn't actually possessed. The one time we did see normals posessed by demons, it was because a mage forced them there.

But from every lore indication, posessing a templar would be harder than someone that isn't a templar.

That's possible. Normals are capable of resisting blood magic if their mental fortitude (?) is strong enough (See Hawke and Idunna) and Templars are supposed to train their minds.

[MisterJB]

Xilizhra wrote...
Not the same thing. The Champion move question is just one of the animation used, but I don't see how you can handwave "magical damaging force blast."

Yes, the very same thing. "War Cry" produces an effect just like "Holy Smite" produces an effect, that effect being knocking out your opponent. If you can handwave one because it makes no sense, then you must handwave the other because it goes against the lore that states that Templar abilities don't affect normal people.

[Xilizhra]

MisterJB wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
Not the same thing. The Champion move question is just one of the animation used, but I don't see how you can handwave "magical damaging force blast."

Yes, the very same thing. "War Cry" produces an effect just like "Holy Smite" produces an effect, that effect being knocking out your opponent. If you can handwave one because it makes no sense, then you must handwave the other because it goes against the lore that states that Templar abilities don't affect normal people.

Holy Smite also does damage. Additionally, it wasn't implemented in DAO, when that line was said, but remember that Alistair was never really a templar and may not have learned that. Or, perhaps, it's a new technique by the time of DA2.

Also, because templars and reavers explicitly show that warriors can have magical abilities, War Cry may well have an extra kick to it that does, in fact, knock people over.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 05 juillet 2013 - 11:41 .

[MisterJB]

Xilizhra wrote...
Holy Smite also does damage. Additionally, it wasn't implemented in DAO, when that line was said, but remember that Alistair was never really a templar and may not have learned that. Or, perhaps, it's a new technique by the time of DA2.

Check your facts, Holy Smite was in DAO.

Also, because templars and reavers explicitly show that warriors can have magical abilities, War Cry may well have an extra kick to it that does, in fact, knock people over.

People scream so hard it knocks other people down.
Yeah, let's keep the sillyness to a minimum. There is such a thing as gameplay-story segregation.
Templars and Reavers ingested magical components to become what they are. Champions do no such thing.

[MisterJB]

LobselVith8 wrote...
Nearly a decade later, King Alistair is protecting apostates from the templars.

What Meredith said was that three mages fled to Ferelden and Alistair intervened to protect them which doesn't mean he didn't just deliver them to the Ferelden Circle and all that he was trying to do was not keep mages in a Circle where the First Enchanter is a blood mage and the Knight Commander is insane.
Given that Alistair says he doesn't really have control over Ferelden's Circle and that since Meredith knows, Gregoir, would know too, it makes far more sense that those three mages were just accepted into the Ferelden Circle.

Also, three mages is not the same as Ferelden becoming a "sanctuary".

He's still arguing for and agrees with mage autonomy.

My arguments dealt not with Alistair's feelings in the matter but with the likely results if he attempted to act upon them.

I guess I simply don't share your pessimism about the ramifications of the Hero of Ferelden from the Circle asking for his people to be free, and being a symbol to others.

You know, one thing is to believe in people; which is a fine attitude; but dismissing valid arguments as "pessimism" is something completely different.
The Warden being a City Elf didn't stop humans and elves from coming into conflict and this happened between people that were 100% fereldan. Now, you suggest that hundreds of mages from every culture; people capable of killing others with their minds; move to Ferelden and you expect that to not be a controversial decision?

[LobselVith8]

MisterJB wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

Doesn't have to be forced or forced by a mage. There is wiggle room for mundanes to be idiots.

The one time we did see a normal dealing with a demon (Lady Harriman), she wasn't actually possessed. The one time we did see normals posessed by demons, it was because a mage forced them there. 

Demons can possess people or things where the Veil is thin. The Brecillian Forest saw so much death that it has a thin Veil. Ordinary people can be possessed; Sophia was possessed. Animals and trees can be possessed. I'm not sure why you seem to think otherwise.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Grasping at straws Xil....

[Xilizhra]

Check your facts, Holy Smite was in DAO.

Ah, then Alistair was just wrong. Especially because there's literally no point in having Holy Smite do spirit damage to non-spellcasters if that's not what it does in lore.

People scream so hard it knocks other people down.
Yeah, let's keep the sillyness to a minimum. There is such a thing as gameplay-story segregation.
Templars and Reavers ingested magical components to become what they are. Champions do no such thing.

Alistair didn't. TemplarHawke also shows no signs of lyrium addiction.

Grasping at straws Xil....

Denying presented powers, oddly named mook.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 05 juillet 2013 - 12:11 .

[MisterJB]

Xilizhra wrote...
Ah, then Alistair was just wrong. Especially because there's literally no point in having Holy Smite do spirit damage to non-spellcasters if that's not what it does in lore.

No, you are just unable to admit you're wrong.
Dragon Age, as with everything, suffers from gameplay-story segregation. This affects abilities such as Holy Smite but also Templar Warden and Hawke as well as thing like the Arishok impaling the Champion and yet him being just fine and dandy the next second so long as you have enough HP points.
That's all there is to it.

If you want to see how Templar powers are supposed to work, check the books or comics. Notice how Alistair never uses his abilities except against Titus and how Evangeline also didn't use hers against the possessed corpses or Lambert.

[MisterJB]

LobselVith8 wrote...
Demons can possess people or things where the Veil is thin. The Brecillian Forest saw so much death that it has a thin Veil. Ordinary people can be possessed; Sophia was possessed. Animals and trees can be possessed. I'm not sure why you seem to think otherwise.

Yes, they can, but that doesn't mean they do. Likewise, my stomach has the capacity to process raw meat which doesn't mean I actually consume raw meat.
Demons see non-mages as they see a tree. They can possess a normal person, sure, but they rarely do so willingly because, unlike a tree or a corpse, a non-mage will fight off the possession.

[LobselVith8]

MisterJB wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Nearly a decade later, King Alistair is protecting apostates from the templars.

What Meredith said was that three mages fled to Ferelden and Alistair intervened to protect them which doesn't mean he didn't just deliver them to the Ferelden Circle and all that he was trying to do was not keep mages in a Circle where the First Enchanter is a blood mage and the Knight Commander is insane.

*sigh* We don't know that Orsino was a practicing blood mage.

MisterJB wrote...

Given that Alistair says he doesn't really have control over Ferelden's Circle and that since Meredith knows, Gregoir, would know too, it makes far more sense that those three mages were just accepted into the Ferelden Circle.

He doesn't have control over the Circle Tower. The kingdom outside the Circle is another matter. I suppose I simply don't subscribe to your theory since mages in the Circle aren't governed by the Crown, which means your theory doesn't really make any sense.

MisterJB wrote...

Also, three mages is not the same as Ferelden becoming a "sanctuary"

I think the situation would be different when the Hero of Ferelden and the ruler of Ferelden publicly support mage autonomy for the Circle of Ferelden (which doesn't happen in the scenario where they discuss three specific mages), and Meredith vaguely eludes to this having an impact on the other Circles of Magi.

MisterJB wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

He's still arguing for and agrees with mage autonomy.

My arguments dealt not with Alistair's feelings in the matter but with the likely results if he attempted to act upon them.

King Alistair already has made moves towards mage autonomy. So does Queen Anora, via the US Ending, where she dictates this goal even if the Hero of Ferelden has died.

MisterJB wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I guess I simply don't share your pessimism about the ramifications of the Hero of Ferelden from the Circle asking for his people to be free, and being a symbol to others.

You know, one thing is to believe in people; which is a fine attitude; but dismissing valid arguments as "pessimism" is something completely different.
The Warden being a City Elf didn't stop humans and elves from coming into conflict and this happened between people that were 100% fereldan. Now, you suggest that hundreds of mages from every culture; people capable of killing others with their minds; move to Ferelden and you expect that to not be a controversial decision? 

There are always good and bad outcomes. Ferelden could be the start to Andrastian mages and non-mages learning to live together. I think the pilgrim mages could initially establish themselves outside of Orzammar or Kal'Hirol, given how a mage (in this scenario) governs Amaranthine at this time. With some in Orlais pushing to invade Ferelden, the mages could be helpful in defending their new home.

[Xilizhra]

MisterJB wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
Ah, then Alistair was just wrong. Especially because there's literally no point in having Holy Smite do spirit damage to non-spellcasters if that's not what it does in lore.

No, you are just unable to admit you're wrong.
Dragon Age, as with everything, suffers from gameplay-story segregation. This affects abilities such as Holy Smite but also Templar Warden and Hawke as well as thing like the Arishok impaling the Champion and yet him being just fine and dandy the next second so long as you have enough HP points.
That's all there is to it.

If you want to see how Templar powers are supposed to work, check the books or comics. Notice how Alistair never uses his abilities except against Titus and how Evangeline also didn't use hers against the possessed corpses or Lambert.

And dialogue is in-universe and thus fallible. Also, Holy Smite is frequently not a good use of stamina against nonmagic enemies, especially singular ones.

[MisterJB]

LobselVith8 wrote...
*sigh* We don't know that Orsino was a practicing blood mage.

He doesn't have control over the Circle Tower. The kingdom outside the Circle is another matter. I suppose I simply don't subscribe to your theory since mages in the Circle aren't governed by the Crown, which means your theory doesn't really make any sense.

Alistair has no authority over any mage at all, they all fall under the jusridiction of the Circle and Chantry and Tevinter, two of which are going to put tremendous pressure if Alistair suddenly starts getting ideas of mages living outside.
There are, of course, many ways he could have helped those mages reach Calenhad's lake without exerting his actual authority.

I think the situation would be different when the Hero of Ferelden and the ruler of Ferelden publicly support mage autonomy for the Circle of Ferelden (which doesn't happen in the scenario where they discuss three specific mages), and Meredith vaguely eludes to this having an impact on the other Circles of Magi.

What I meant was that the people overlooking three mages is not the same as Ferelden suddenly becoming an haven for mages and that the people are not likely to overlook that.
Whatever impact a Magi Warden had on the Circles is irrelevant.

King Alistair already has made moves towards mage autonomy. So does Queen Anora, via the US Ending, where she dictates this goal even if the Hero of Ferelden has died.

Alistair's moves failed when the Chantry said "No" thus avoiding the disaster.

There are always good and bad outcomes. Ferelden could be the start to Andrastian mages and non-mages learning to live together. I think the pilgrim mages could initially establish themselves outside of Orzammar or Kal'Hirol, given how a mage (in this scenario) governs Amaranthine at this time. With some in Orlais pushing to invade Ferelden, the mages could be helpful in defending their new home.

But the bad outcomes are much more likely to happen. Hundreds of mages can't stay on the fringes of society and not be noticed. For instance, let's say they did go to the Amaranthine arling because a mage once ruled there (the Warden is gone at this time in all playtrhoughs). Do you think the people are just going to accept them? We already have an hard enough time dealing with culture clashes in our world and no group of people can kill others with their minds.
Yes, focusing everyone's attention on an orlesian invasion would settle matters...for a little while. As soon as the orlesians were gone, they would turn on each other as people are wanton to do. And the orlesians are far too busy with a civil war plus the tear plus rebelling elves to attack Ferelden.

Let's face it, mages and non-mages just can't live together. It's impossible.

[Xilizhra]

Alistair has no authority over any mage at all, they all fall under the jusridiction of the Circle and Chantry and Tevinter, two of which are going to put tremendous pressure if Alistair suddenly starts getting ideas of mages living outside.
There are, of course, many ways he could have helped those mages reach Calenhad's lake without exerting his actual authority.

I think it's far more likely that he effectively has stymied templar hunts for them, possibly by giving them another place to hide.

Let's face it, mages and non-mages just can't live together. It's impossible.

An open question, but if your assumptions are proven wrong, it'll be most enjoyable.

[Ieldra]

MisterJB wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
Holy Smite.

Gameplay-Story segregation, it doesn' actually work like that.
Otherwise, maybe the Champion Class can scream so hard it makes an Ogre falls on its back.

Except that that isn't magic. Holy Smite is magic. Also, if lyrium bestows magical abilities, there is no reason why a templar couldn't learn other magics if they put their minds to it, just like mages with innate abilities. 

[Inprea]

Xilizhra wrote...

Alistair has no authority over any mage at all, they all fall under the jusridiction of the Circle and Chantry and Tevinter, two of which are going to put tremendous pressure if Alistair suddenly starts getting ideas of mages living outside.
There are, of course, many ways he could have helped those mages reach Calenhad's lake without exerting his actual authority.

I think it's far more likely that he effectively has stymied templar hunts for them, possibly by giving them another place to hide.

Let's face it, mages and non-mages just can't live together. It's impossible.

An open question, but if your assumptions are proven wrong, it'll be most enjoyable.

As I recall Shale's former owner was a mage and while he wasn't exactly a friendly neighbor he seems aggreeable enough. It's not like Shale was chasing people out of their homes. He even had a none mage wife who despite his desires was able to henpeck him into keeping Shale outside and even going at her with a chistle. However, long that must have taken.

Then there is Hawke's father who in every playthrough is indeed a mage. If I'm not mistaken he lived peacefully along non mages on his little farm. Heck Hawke's father was even a blood mage as he had to know blood magic in order to help the wardens with their prison. The fact that the family recieves letters from fellow survivors speaking fondly to them seems to say that they were well liked.

Those two cases show that mages can indeed live alongside non mages.

If Anders hadn't decided to push things over the edge he would serve as an example as well. The people were going to him for healing which he gladly gave and even defended him. I have to ask. If the people were so comfortable going to Anders for healing why couldn't they do the same at the circle? It seems to me the templars would rather watch someone die of an illness then allow a mage to heal them and possibly gain some good will.

Modifié par Inprea, 05 juillet 2013 - 02:12 .

[MisterJB]

Ieldra2 wrote...
Except that that isn't magic. Holy Smite is magic. Also, if lyrium bestows magical abilities, there is no reason why a templar couldn't learn other magics if they put their minds to it, just like mages with innate abilities. 

Holy Smite is part of a group of magic specifically created to combat mages. There are also actual spells that should have no effect on those devoid of mana like "Mana Clash".
Whether the templars could develop other abilities...who knows. I imagine that if they could, they would have tried. In Tevinter, there are likely many people who would drink gallons of lyrium if that is what it took to be granted a chnace at a better life. That it hasn't been done suggests it doesn't work that way.

[MisterJB]

Xilizhra wrote...
An open question, but if your assumptions are proven wrong, it'll be most enjoyable.

How mature, Xilizhra. Usually, I prefer to ignore childish taunts but let me tell you this. Since mages don't exist, I can't be proven wrong. Dragon Age is an universe created by the mind of its writers meaning, that it's affected by diverse factors that; were it a real world; would have no effect such as the writer's own biases plus public appeal, etc.
Even if DAI magically creates some perfect solution, I shall rest easy, secure in my knowledge how it would never work in the real world.

Inprea wrote...
Those two cases show that mages can indeed live alongside non mages.

Certainly,
indiviual mages might be able to live alongside individual non-mages. I've never claimed otherwise. Basically, what I've always claimed is that the inherent dangers but also advantages that magic grants makes equal co-existence between the groups, as a whole, impossible.

Modifié par MisterJB, 05 juillet 2013 - 02:28 .

[Xilizhra]

How mature, Xilizhra. Usually, I prefer to ignore childish taunts but let me tell you this. Since mages don't exist, I can't be proven wrong. Dragon Age is an universe created by the mind of its writers meaning, that it's affected by diverse factors that; were it a real world; would have no effect such as the writer's own biases plus public appeal, etc.
Even if DAI magically creates some perfect solution, I shall rest easy, secure in my knowledge how it would never work in the real world.

Why are you switching to "perfect solution" from "capable of living together?"

Certainly,
indiviual mages might be able to live alongside
individual non-mages. I've never claimed otherwise. Basically, what I've
always claimed is that the inherent dangers but also advantages that
magic grants makes equal co-existence between the groups, as a whole,
impossible.

Not if magic becomes something anyone can learn. Which is one of the outcomes I hope for.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 05 juillet 2013 - 02:31 .

[Inprea]

MisterJB wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
An open question, but if your assumptions are proven wrong, it'll be most enjoyable.

How mature, Xilizhra. Usually, I prefer to ignore childish taunts but let me tell you this. Since mages don't exist, I can't be proven wrong. Dragon Age is an universe created by the mind of its writers meaning, that it's affected by diverse factors that; were it a real world; would have no effect such as the writer's own biases plus public appeal, etc.
Even if DAI magically creates some perfect solution, I shall rest easy, secure in my knowledge how it would never work in the real world.

Inprea wrote...
Those two cases show that mages can indeed live alongside non mages.

Certainly,
indiviual mages might be able to live alongside individual non-mages. I've never claimed otherwise. Basically, what I've always claimed is that the inherent dangers but also advantages that magic grants makes equal co-existence between the groups, as a whole, impossible.

You do realize that the inability to prove something wrong or in other words the inability to test something means that it can't be taken as scientific fact I hope. You may believe or have faith that mages and non mages could not co-exist but that's all it is.

Group as a whole? Equal co-existance? Do we even have equal co-existance now especially with the DA universe with the way certain individuals are born into wealth and power to such a point they're above the law? As for a group as a whole. Where is this magic tipping point where peaceful and beneficial co-existance becomes impossible? 

Modifié par Inprea, 05 juillet 2013 - 03:14 .

[LobselVith8]

MisterJB wrote..

LobselVith8 wrote...

*sigh* We don't know that Orsino was a practicing blood mage.

You're suggesting Orsino became a Harvester before? 

MisterJB wrote..

LobselVith8 wrote...

He doesn't have control over the Circle Tower. The kingdom outside the Circle is another matter. I suppose I simply don't subscribe to your theory since mages in the Circle aren't governed by the Crown, which means your theory doesn't really make any sense.

Alistair has no authority over any mage at all, they all fall under the jusridiction of the Circle and Chantry and Tevinter, two of which are going to put tremendous pressure if Alistair suddenly starts getting ideas of mages living outside.
There are, of course, many ways he could have helped those mages reach Calenhad's lake without exerting his actual authority. 

Except if the three mages were under Chantry authority in the Circle of Ferelden, Alistair wouldn't be keeping the mages away from the templars. Greagoir would. The dialogue simply doesn't reflect what you're suggesting. And I think it's safe more than three would head to Ferelden if the King or Queen was seen as a progressive ruler who promoted autonomy via the Magi Boon.

MisterJB wrote..

LobselVith8 wrote...

I think the situation would be different when the Hero of Ferelden and the ruler of Ferelden publicly support mage autonomy for the Circle of Ferelden (which doesn't happen in the scenario where they discuss three specific mages), and Meredith vaguely eludes to this having an impact on the other Circles of Magi.

What I meant was that the people overlooking three mages is not the same as Ferelden suddenly becoming an haven for mages and that the people are not likely to overlook that.
Whatever impact a Magi Warden had on the Circles is irrelevant. 

I'm talking about the possible ramifications of the Hero of Ferelden asking for the freedom of his people and becoming the Arl of Amaranthine in direct violation of Chantry law and dogma. If you find the discussion irrelevant, you shouldn't have participated in it.

MisterJB wrote..

LobselVith8 wrote...

King Alistair already has made moves towards mage autonomy. So does Queen Anora, via the US Ending, where she dictates this goal even if the Hero of Ferelden has died.

Alistair's moves failed when the Chantry said "No" thus avoiding the disaster. 

It isn't over, as the developers have also said on the Magi Boon. Even King Alistair doesn't say that he's given up.

MisterJB wrote..

LobselVith8 wrote...

There are always good and bad outcomes. Ferelden could be the start to Andrastian mages and non-mages learning to live together. I think the pilgrim mages could initially establish themselves outside of Orzammar or Kal'Hirol, given how a mage (in this scenario) governs Amaranthine at this time. With some in Orlais pushing to invade Ferelden, the mages could be helpful in defending their new home.

But the bad outcomes are much more likely to happen. Hundreds of mages can't stay on the fringes of society and not be noticed. For instance, let's say they did go to the Amaranthine arling because a mage once ruled there (the Warden is gone at this time in all playtrhoughs). Do you think the people are just going to accept them? We already have an hard enough time dealing with culture clashes in our world and no group of people can kill others with their minds. 
Yes, focusing everyone's attention on an orlesian invasion would settle matters...for a little while. As soon as the orlesians were gone, they would turn on each other as people are wanton to do. And the orlesians are far too busy with a civil war plus the tear plus rebelling elves to attack Ferelden.

Let's face it, mages and non-mages just can't live together. It's impossible. 

The Avvar, the Chasind, the Dalish, the Rivaini, and the people of Haven say hello.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 05 juillet 2013 - 05:21 .

[Ieldra]

LobselVith8 wrote...

MisterJB wrote..
Let's face it, mages and non-mages just can't live together. It's impossible. 

The Avvar, the Chasind, the Dalish, the Rivaini, and the people of Haven say hello.

Heh.....one wonders if the Chantry makes war upon those because their existence proves the Chantry's ideology wrong.