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[Lotion Soronarr]

All backward, dying groups with no real future... promising indeed.

Lob, I know just hearing the words "Aldenon the Wise" or "mage utopia" is enough for you to **** in your pants, but your endles broken recrod repetition of the same thing is getting kinda old.

[LobselVith8]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

All backward, dying groups with no real future... promising indeed.

Those societies aren't dying, they have thrived for centuries (and even faced the wrath of the Tevinter Imperium at times), and there's nothing to suggest they have no real future. You seem to look down on them because they are outside of the spectrum of the Andrastian Chantry, but I think the case could be made that, at the very least, none of them are dealing with a continential revolution as a consequence of the mages refusing to submit to the Chantry anymore, while the Seekers of Truth and the Order of Templars defected from Chantry authority to hunt down the mages.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Lob, I know just hearing the words "Aldenon the Wise" or "mage utopia" is enough for you to **** in your pants, but your endles broken recrod repetition of the same thing is getting kinda old.

You don't seem to have a problem with people who continually support the Chantry of Andraste or the Order of Templars. You're welcome not to participate in the discussion if you don't want to discuss mages in a thread that's focused on a 'mage manifesto'.

[Sir JK]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Those societies aren't dying, they have thrived for centuries (and even faced the wrath of the Tevinter Imperium at times), and there's nothing to suggest they have no real future. You seem to look down on them because they are outside of the spectrum of the Andrastian Chantry, but I think the case could be made that, at the very least, none of them are dealing with a continential revolution as a consequence of the mages refusing to submit to the Chantry anymore, while the Seekers of Truth and the Order of Templars defected from Chantry authority to hunt down the mages.

The thing is Lobsel, is that we have not encountered these elements of said cultures in enough fine detail to argue whether their ideas would work on Andrastian society. Which is mnay times larger.

The Dalish for instance have small nomadic communities goverened by single mages that chooses a single apprentice. We know the Firsts compete for apprenticehood and only one of them gets it. Presumably they may on occasion hand over one to another clan in need. We also know that the creation school is forbidden for them and they consider all spirits dangerous. We don't know much more.
Given how massive the circles are, this does seem like a system that is rather unfeasible to impose on Andrastian society at glance. Furthermore, the primary means of dealing with the abominations seems to be the clan ganging up on it and hopefully winning, this works for the Dalish since they're all at the very least trained to hunt... but most people in southern Thedas are not trained for battle so we again have a problem that's difficult to mesh.

The avvar (including the people of haven) and the Chasind we simply know not enough about. Kolgrim was not a mage no, but he also did not seem to be it's secular leader as much as the spiritual one. The leader of the community seemed to actually be Father Eirik, a mage. Which would imply, like the codex entries, that it's a mage-ruler society.

Similarily, Rivaini society seems to be a mage dominated one. There's a secular king and nobility yes, but even them, despite being Andrastians, seems to hold the spirit focused seers in high regard. To the extent that even a viddathari community in Rivain is ruled by someone called "seer", the implication is clear methinks.

Of course, both Rivaini and Dalish society seemes to hint that magic is rarely utilised. Merrill mentions that keepers never work magic in public and Isabela that her mother managed to pass off as a seer. Suggesting that in both cases magic itself is used way less than form what we've seen in the examples of Circle life.
Not to mention that the Rivaini and Dalish, despite that both respecting mages, could not tolerate one another's approach to using magic. Since one's method is largely anathema to the other's.

Then there's Tevinter, which I know you don't want as a counter argument but one that cannot be ignored, where the idea of free mages largely does not work since it's held above people.

But what all these cultures have in common is that they're opposed to a central tenent of Andrastian society:
That magic, in itself, does not grant you the right to rule. A criteria that all your examples fails to meet.
In all those cultures, mages hold a premier position because they're mages. Not the ultimate one perhaps, but high ones. So even if those cultures manages to circumvent the problems, which we do not know, they're still unacceptable to the andrastians for that reason.

[Xilizhra]

But what all these cultures have in common is that they're opposed to a central tenent of Andrastian society:
That magic, in itself, does not grant you the right to rule. A criteria that all your examples fails to meet.
In all those cultures, mages hold a premier position because they're mages. Not the ultimate one perhaps, but high ones. So even if those cultures manages to circumvent the problems, which we do not know, they're still unacceptable to the andrastians for that reason.

Rather hypocritically ironic there, as apparently just having the right bloodline otherwise does give you the right to rule. So it's not as though Andrastianism is at all progressive.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

It's not a tenant of Andrastianism that that monarchies are the only way to rule nations.

[Xilizhra]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

It's not a tenant of Andrastianism that that monarchies are the only way to rule nations.

Certainly it's what every single Andrastian nation does, so the only time the religion has a problem with bloodlines is if mages are involved.

[Sir JK]

Xilizhra wrote...

Rather hypocritically ironic there, as apparently just having the right bloodline otherwise does give you the right to rule. So it's not as though Andrastianism is at all progressive.

They most certainly aren't. The idea was concieved 1200 years ago and lots of things have happened since. But it is extremely deeply entrenched by now. They're not just going to abandon it.

[Xilizhra]

Sir JK wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Rather hypocritically ironic there, as apparently just having the right bloodline otherwise does give you the right to rule. So it's not as though Andrastianism is at all progressive.

They most certainly aren't. The idea was concieved 1200 years ago and lots of things have happened since. But it is extremely deeply entrenched by now. They're not just going to abandon it.

Why would mage not-being-imprisoned automatically lead to mage rule despite no one else wanting it?

[Sir JK]

Xilizhra wrote...

Why would mage not-being-imprisoned automatically lead to mage rule despite no one else wanting it?

That's not the objection of using these cultures as examples though. They're not merely cultures mere mages are not imprisoned, they're mages as privileged-members-of-society cultures. You cannot use parts of them while ignoring the others.
Were there a society were not imprisoned and were citzens like any other, that would be an example of this. But there is not.

[vpacheco1984]

Ieldra2 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

MisterJB wrote..
Let's face it, mages and non-mages just can't live together. It's impossible. 

The Avvar, the Chasind, the Dalish, the Rivaini, and the people of Haven say hello.

Heh.....one wonders if the Chantry makes war upon those because their existence proves the Chantry's ideology wrong.

Probably. How else would they stay in power if they don't have a boogy man to unify people against? 

[Ieldra]

Sir JK wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
Why would mage not-being-imprisoned automatically lead to mage rule despite no one else wanting it?

That's not the objection of using these cultures as examples though. They're not merely cultures mere mages are not imprisoned, they're mages as privileged-members-of-society cultures. You cannot use parts of them while ignoring the others.
Were there a society were not imprisoned and were citzens like any other, that would be an example of this. But there is not.

Not quite. Mages have prominent positions in these cultures, but not in all of them are these positions reserved for mages. It's only privilege if there is a law or tradition that reserves high positions for mages. Otherwise it's just a result of power dynamics, just like in today's societies, people who grew up in rich families are more likely to end up in influential positions, more likely to end up wealthy themselves, and have better health, with not necessarily more individual merit than others who weren't born into advantageous environments.

So no, the Andrastians want more than prevent mages from being privileged. They want non-mages to be privileged, and that's exactly how things stand in the lands dominated by the Chantry. Non-mages are the privileged ones because the Andrastean ideology disenfranchises mages.

[BlueMagitek]

I will inform the Alienage women who are carted off to be raped that they are privileged because they are not mages.

[LobselVith8]

BlueMagitek wrote...

I will inform the Alienage women who are carted off to be raped that they are privileged because they are not mages.

I think you missed the point entirely. As for the plight of the elves, their misfortune is the reason why Anders thinks that the elves should fight alongside the mages.

[Ieldra]

BlueMagitek wrote...
I will inform the Alienage women who are carted off to be raped that they are privileged because they are not mages.

Nice way to miss the point. BTW, raping those women is still a crime, even if it goes unpunished too often. Raping a mage's soul is a legal "preventive measure".

Modifié par Ieldra2, 05 juillet 2013 - 08:08 .

[BlueMagitek]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Nice way to miss the point. BTW, raping those women is still a crime, even if it goes unpunished too often. Raping a mage's soul is a legal "preventive measure".

I was told that the Andrastians were privileged.  Were those elves not Andrastians?

The forced conscription of commoners is also a legal measure.  It is completely legal for nobility to execute whomever they like, even other nobility, if they are higher on the scale (DA:A).  Raping second hand citizens?  Eh, if dirt is needed on that noble, I suppose it might be prosecuted, but for the most part, totally legal.

[MisterJB]

Ieldra2 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

MisterJB wrote..
Let's face it, mages and non-mages just can't live together. It's impossible. 

The Avvar, the Chasind, the Dalish, the Rivaini, and the people of Haven say hello.

Heh.....one wonders if the Chantry makes war upon those because their existence proves the Chantry's ideology wrong.

On the contrary. What those societies prove is that givng mages freedom inevitably leads to them becoming the higher strata of society thus justifying the Circle System so that non-mages don't become second class citizens beholden to the magical elite.

Oh, and the Chantry never made war upon neither the Chasind nor Rivain.

Modifié par MisterJB, 05 juillet 2013 - 08:34 .

[Ieldra]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Nice way to miss the point. BTW, raping those women is still a crime, even if it goes unpunished too often. Raping a mage's soul is a legal "preventive measure".

I was told that the Andrastians were privileged.  Were those elves not Andrastians?

The forced conscription of commoners is also a legal measure.  It is completely legal for nobility to execute whomever they like, even other nobility, if they are higher on the scale (DA:A).  Raping second hand citizens?  Eh, if dirt is needed on that noble, I suppose it might be prosecuted, but for the most part, totally legal.

You're still missing the point. The alienage elves and other non-mages have rights a mage doesn't have, such as moving about freely. That there exist differences in legal status within that group, and that the city elves are justified to enact a revolution of their own (which my mage Warden from the OP would support unreservedly), that's a separate matter. The connecting point is that the human non-mages end up at the top of the power structure. Oh and btw....Ser Alrik. 

Modifié par Ieldra2, 05 juillet 2013 - 08:51 .

[BlueMagitek]

Ieldra2 wrote...

You're still missing the point. The alienage elves and other non-mages have rights a mage doesn't have, such as moving about freely. That there exist differences in legal status within that group, and that the city elves are justified to enact a revolution of their own (which my mage Warden from the OP would support unreservedly), that's a separate matter. The connecting point is that the human non-mages end up at the top of the power structure.

Actually, it appears that once you reach a certain status (DA:A, DA:O), a mage has the right to move about, more or less, as they please, without Templar guardians.

Each society presented has a different social structure.  Almost each one contains a second (or worse) class citizens.  The Dwarves are nicely organized.  The Dalish have Dalish and City Elves.  Tevinter has Dreamer Magisters, Magisters, Mages, citizens and slaves.  Most Andrastian nations would follow with Monarch, Nobility, Merchants, commonfolk, alienage elves.  Even the Dales had a ruling class.

In Andrastian society, the Mages appear to be a protected class.  They have protection from the other classes, do not need to contribute to society, but they are held to diferent standards, as you say.  Yes.  Yes they do have different rights, they also have different responsibilities and different interactions with the class structure.

[Lotion Soronarr]

LobselVith8 wrote...
Those societies aren't dying, they have thrived for centuries (and even faced the wrath of the Tevinter Imperium at times), and there's nothing to suggest they have no real future. You seem to look down on them because they are outside of the spectrum of the Andrastian Chantry, but I think the case could be made that, at the very least, none of them are dealing with a continential revolution as a consequence of the mages refusing to submit to the Chantry anymore, while the Seekers of Truth and the Order of Templars defected from Chantry authority to hunt down the mages.

They are too weak and disoarganized to have a massive revolution.
That doesnt' stop entire clans from being wiped out tough.

You don't seem to have a problem with people who continually support the Chantry of Andraste or the Order of Templars. You're welcome not to participate in the discussion if you don't want to discuss mages in a thread that's focused on a 'mage manifesto'.

You don't just suport. You litteraly copy-paste the same sentance. Over and over.
And you repeat yourself. Over and over.

Also, I'll leave this thread exaclty like you left the "Templar perspective" one.

[Bleachrude]

Ieldra2 wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...
I will inform the Alienage women who are carted off to be raped that they are privileged because they are not mages.

Nice way to miss the point. BTW, raping those women is still a crime, even if it goes unpunished too often. Raping a mage's soul is a legal "preventive measure".

Er...I don't think what Vaughn did is considered a "crime". Crime is a LEGAL term enacted by governments or the community...thus, since Vaughn quite blatantly walked into the alienage, it is NOT a crime to rape alienage elves.

Now, this is morally disgusting but that's diffeent from it being a crime whereas what Alrik was doing was conducted in secret implying that it WOULD be considered a crime if it got out...

Modifié par Bleachrude, 05 juillet 2013 - 09:43 .

[Bleachrude]

Xilizhra wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

It's not a tenant of Andrastianism that that monarchies are the only way to rule nations.

Certainly it's what every single Andrastian nation does, so the only time the religion has a problem with bloodlines is if mages are involved.

Again, not true, since in the Landsmeet, even though Alistair is a scion of Calenhad, you can still lose there. Hell, when Maric "died", the only reason that Bryce Cousland didn't become king was because he threw his support behind Cailan.

[Sir JK]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Not quite. Mages have prominent positions in these cultures, but not in all of them are these positions reserved for mages. It's only privilege if there is a law or tradition that reserves high positions for mages. Otherwise it's just a result of power dynamics, just like in today's societies, people who grew up in rich families are more likely to end up in influential positions, more likely to end up wealthy themselves, and have better health, with not necessarily more individual merit than others who weren't born into advantageous environments.

So no, the Andrastians want more than prevent mages from being privileged. They want non-mages to be privileged, and that's exactly how things stand in the lands dominated by the Chantry. Non-mages are the privileged ones because the Andrastean ideology disenfranchises mages.

We have not seen mages being the equals of non-mages however. We have never seen a dalish mage being anything other than beloning to their ruling class (keepers and firsts). We have never heard of a chasind or avvar mage apart from shamans, witches (and their teachers, witches of the wild), Father Eirik of Haven and the mages in the Haven ruins, and all of those are suggested to be high ranking in society (in the last case, they're in the temple among a select few). In Rivain the Seers and the circle had a cooperation of sorts, but the seers held great respect in society.

I'll  admit that while it does seem that the mages are elevated in
society, the social gap between them and non-mages are small and there's
not neccessarily any glass ceiling for non-mages. Kolgrim was indeed
the religious leader of Haven, despite not being a mage. So while mages does seem to belong to Haven's higher social strata, it is not exclusive to them.

Only in three societies have we really heard of mages belonging to stratas apart from the higher ones: In Tevinter, In Andrastian society and among the Qunari. And even then, the edges are a bit blurred. Shown for example by the mortalitasi of Nevarra, which definantely are privileged and franchised mages in the heart of Andrastian society.

Is it possible that the suggested cultures have equality between mages
and non-mages? Yes. This is not something we have been shown or has been
suggested in codices though. We need to see more to tell for sure.
Which is partly why they're poor examples to hold forward as proof that andrastians are doing things wrong. We either sit on too little information to determine or they're contrary to one of the most fundamental values of andrastian society.

To be able to conclusively prove that separation is pointless we need to be shown a culture were possession of magical talent in no way determine your social status. A society where we can find mages in the underclass despite nothing institutionally putting them there. That would be indicative that the social separation is a completely unnecessary policy.

[Medhia Nox]

Isn't technically the Landsmeet the equivalent of an elective monarchy?

Here's a question, and don't dance around it.

Would any of you "Pro-Mage" people give up your magic if it meant total equality?

I'm only interested in a Yes/No if you're even inclined to answer at all.

[LobselVith8]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Those societies aren't dying, they have thrived for centuries (and even faced the wrath of the Tevinter Imperium at times), and there's nothing to suggest they have no real future. You seem to look down on them because they are outside of the spectrum of the Andrastian Chantry, but I think the case could be made that, at the very least, none of them are dealing with a continential revolution as a consequence of the mages refusing to submit to the Chantry anymore, while the Seekers of Truth and the Order of Templars defected from Chantry authority to hunt down the mages.

They are too weak and disoarganized to have a massive revolution.
That doesnt' stop entire clans from being wiped out tough.

There's no evidence that they are "too weak" or "too disorganized" - in fact, they took on the Tevinter Imperium. I think that speaks volumes about their fortitude and longevity as respective societies.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

You don't seem to have a problem with people who continually support the Chantry of Andraste or the Order of Templars. You're welcome not to participate in the discussion if you don't want to discuss mages in a thread that's focused on a 'mage manifesto'.

You don't just suport. You litteraly copy-paste the same sentance. Over and over. 
And you repeat yourself. Over and over.

I'm responding to specific questions. Given that we have discussed the same issue for years, we likely cover the same ground - as you do with your Leliana posts about her possible demise after attacking The Warden.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Also, I'll leave this thread exaclty like you left the "Templar perspective" one. 

You could try discussing the topic without getting upset that people are talking about mages in a thread about mages.

[The Baconer]

MisterJB wrote...
On the contrary. What those societies prove is that givng mages freedom inevitably leads to them becoming the higher strata of society

...And? What is the problem here, exactly?

thus justifying the Circle System so that non-mages don't become second class citizens beholden to the magical elite.

Ah, what a travesty. Obviously, being a second class beholden to the people with fancy surnames is preferable.