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[TheKomandorShepard]

Sir JK wrote...


We have not seen mages being the equals of non-mages however. We have never seen a dalish mage being anything other than beloning to their ruling class (keepers and firsts).

http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Elora not rly ruling class... besides i don't have nothing against ruling mage if its good guy not bad that same way i fell about non-mage ruler.And what you mean equal non-mages and mages peoples aren't equal too nobles and they are useless only poisoning society i don't see that useless guy should be equal useful human yeah both should have that same rights but it is understandable that somone puts as medic someone who can heal using hands than other guy like that some who have medical talent rather that who haven't, beside in dalish culture hunters are very important .  

Modifié par TheKomandorShepard, 05 juillet 2013 - 11:25 .

[DPSSOC]

Xilizhra wrote...

But what all these cultures have in common is that they're opposed to a central tenent of Andrastian society:
That magic, in itself, does not grant you the right to rule. A criteria that all your examples fails to meet.
In all those cultures, mages hold a premier position because they're mages. Not the ultimate one perhaps, but high ones. So even if those cultures manages to circumvent the problems, which we do not know, they're still unacceptable to the andrastians for that reason.

Rather hypocritically ironic there, as apparently just having the right bloodline otherwise does give you the right to rule. So it's not as though Andrastianism is at all progressive.

Except the Chantry doesn't endorse hereditary rule, hell the only rule they do endorse is that of the Orlesian Emperor/Empress at the time and that's because of political connections dating back to inception.

Ieldra2 wrote...

Sir JK wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
Why would mage not-being-imprisoned automatically lead to mage rule despite no one else wanting it?

That's not the objection of using these cultures as examples though. They're not merely cultures mere mages are not imprisoned, they're mages as privileged-members-of-society cultures. You cannot use parts of them while ignoring the others.
Were there a society were not imprisoned and were citzens like any other, that would be an example of this. But there is not.

Not quite. Mages have prominent positions in these cultures, but not in all of them are these positions reserved for mages. It's only privilege if there is a law or tradition that reserves high positions for mages.

 
Have we been given any indication that Dalish Keepers or Chasind/Avaar Shamans are ever non-mages?  We know the Seers of Rivain have to be mages, the only indication we have that the Keepers don't is from Felicia Day so that's a questionable source (I know she says she talked to the devs but until one of them confirms/supports it it's still just her word).

Ieldra2 wrote...
So no, the Andrastians want more than prevent mages from being privileged. They want non-mages to be privileged, and that's exactly how things stand in the lands dominated by the Chantry. Non-mages are the privileged ones because the Andrastean ideology disenfranchises mages.

Actually it doesn't.  The tenants of Andrastianism(?) places only two provisions on magic; it must not be used to dominate others (Magic exists to serve man, and never to rule over him), and it must not be used to harm others (Foul and corrupt are they who have taken His gift and turned it against His children).  That's it.  Mages were given the opportunity to live freely with restrictions on their uses of magic (lighting candles), they were dissatisfied with this arrangement and protested, exchanging freedom of mobility for freedom to use magic more or less as they wished.  Since then mages across Andrastian Thedas (Tevinter being the most notable example but by no means isolated) have seemed dead set on demonstrating that left to their own devices they cannot be trusted to follow those rules.

The irony is that, from what we're shown, Dalish, Chasind, Rivaini, and Avaar mages are more Andrastian than Andrastian mages.  By and large we don't see them using their magic to dominate their fellows (they do dominate because of magic but not it's direct use), nor do we see any examples of them turning it against their own (at least intentionally).

[Ieldra]

DPSSOC wrote...
That's it. Mages were given the opportunity to live freely with restrictions on their uses of magic (lighting candles), they were dissatisfied with this arrangement and protested, exchanging freedom of mobility for freedom to use magic more or less as they wished.

It isn't freedom if you aren't allowed to use your magic for any otherwise lawful purpose or aren't allowed to move about freely. It isn't freedom if the mere fact that something is done by magic can be a punishable offence, regardless of the actual harm it causes. Having said that, if your point was that Andrastean ideology is much more lenient as written than in practice, then I agree.

In any future treaty about the rights and obligations of mages, these things would feature prominently:

(1) A full mage (one who has passed his Harrowing or whatever test may replace it) has the right to use his magic freely for any lawful purpose.
(This is to establish the default state: magic is allowed except where forbidden by a law, not the other way round.)

(2) No action can be declared lawful or unlawful based solely on the use of magic in its execution. For any unlawful action, the use of magic in its execution constitutes neither an aggravating nor an extenuating circumstance.
(This is a "non-discrimination/non-privilege" rule. Example: "it is against the law to use blood magic to dominate another's mind" would violate this principle. "It is against the law to dominate another's mind" would not, similar to the way RL laws don't make a distinction between killing someone with a pistol or a knife. Things like this should really be taken for granted as basic principles of justice, but apparently they're not.)

(3) As an exception to (1), the use of magic can be declared unlawful in specific, carefully circumscribed circumstances where the use of magic would constitute a special risk to public safety. As an exception to (2), specific magical effects can be declared unlawful whose unrestricted use would constitute a special risk to public safety. Such exceptions must be agreed on between the secular authority and the mage community.

The irony is that, from what we're shown, Dalish, Chasind, Rivaini, and Avaar mages are more Andrastian than Andrastian mages.  By and large we don't see them using their magic to dominate their fellows (they do dominate because of magic but not it's direct use), nor do we see any examples of them turning it against their own (at least intentionally).

That was another distinction I've been making. "Magic must not rule over man" is a good principle, as opposed to "mages may not rule over others." which is as arbitrary as saying "people without a noble bloodline may not rule over others". 

[Ieldra]

Since there has been some confusion about what mages are and aren't allowed to do, I've replayed DAO's mage origin and it's all there:

(1) Apprentices aren't allowed to leave at all.
(2) Mages aren't allowed to leave except on "official Circle business". What that is is apparently decided between the First Enchanger and the templar's Knight-Captain.
(3) The penalty for leaving without permission is death. Apparently that's often waived in practice, but the templars have the right to kill any mage they find away from a Circle.

So, the picture is much worse than some templar supporters make it out to be.

[Lotion Soronarr]

No. You are wrong.

The picture is a lot better than some mage supporters make it out to be.

[Lotion Soronarr]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

They are too weak and disoarganized to have a massive revolution.
That doesnt' stop entire clans from being wiped out tough.

There's no evidence that they are "too weak" or "too disorganized" - in fact, they took on the Tevinter Imperium. I think that speaks volumes about their fortitude and longevity as respective societies.

Who did?

The Chasind and Avaar? Nomadic clan-based people. Like the dalish.
Stagnant.
They do not rule the lands. Their politicla power and influence is almost zero.

Comparing Orlais to the dalish is like comparing the USA to some backwater 3rd world banana republic.

I'm responding to specific questions. Given that we have discussed the same issue for years, we likely cover the same ground - as you do with your Leliana posts about her possible demise after attacking The Warden.

You are not responding the specific questions.
You are repeating the same notion wihtout anyone even asking you.

You could try discussing the topic without getting upset that people are talking about mages in a thread about mages.

And you could try doing the same in templar threads.

[LobselVith8]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

There's no evidence that they are "too weak" or "too disorganized" - in fact, they took on the Tevinter Imperium. I think that speaks volumes about their fortitude and longevity as respective societies.

Who did?

The Chasind and Avaar? Nomadic clan-based people. Like the dalish.
Stagnant.

They do not rule the lands. Their politicla power and influence is almost zero.

Their societies have existed for centuries; I think their longevity speaks for itself, especially since they continue to exist despite Tevinter and the Andrastian Chantry. Their people from these societies even fought Tevinter. I don't see any credibility on your part to condemn them as being lesser to the Andrastian kingdoms.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Comparing Orlais to the dalish is like comparing the USA to some backwater 3rd world banana republic.

I'm going to ignore how offensive you sound and point out that the Dalish had their own kingdom before - the Dales. Before that, their people had Arlathan.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I'm responding to specific questions. Given that we have discussed the same issue for years, we likely cover the same ground - as you do with your Leliana posts about her possible demise after attacking The Warden.

You are not responding the specific questions. 
You are repeating the same notion wihtout anyone even asking you.

It's difficult to take you seriously when it's clear you didn't even bother to read the conversation I was having before deciding to throw an insult my way. Here's a suggestion: participate in the thread, and stop trying to derail this thread with personal attacks.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

You could try discussing the topic without getting upset that people are talking about mages in a thread about mages. 

And you could try doing the same in templar threads. 

You didn't read even my posts, did you? I discussed the topic - some of your fellows were upset that I included Cassandra along with Cullen as two possible companions in Inquisition, while I also noted the theory about a templar origin from the 'five ring' picture.

[Sir JK]

Ieldra2 wrote...

That
was another distinction I've been making. "Magic must not rule over
man" is a good principle, as opposed to "mages may not rule over
others." which is as arbitrary as saying "people without a noble
bloodline may not rule over others". 

I can agree to this. There's a number of problems in regards to mages vis-á-vis public safety and equality, but there's no denying that andrastian society takes their "solution" a few steps too far.

Ieldra2 wrote...

Since there has been some confusion about what mages are and aren't allowed to do, I've replayed DAO's mage origin and it's all there:

(1) Apprentices aren't allowed to leave at all.
(2) Mages aren't allowed to leave except on "official Circle business". What that is is apparently decided between the First Enchanger and the templar's Knight-Captain.
(3) The penalty for leaving without permission is death. Apparently that's often waived in practice, but the templars have the right to kill any mage they find away from a Circle.

So, the picture is much worse than some templar supporters make it out to be.

It's correct that these is the situation regarding mobility that mages face, one of many restrictions upon their freedom. But like you mention with the third clause, it seems it is often waived or not as serious as the letter of the law would imply.

In the random encounter with circle mages in DAO, we see one senior enchanter accompanied by two of his apprentices. Suggesting that there are in fact exception to the first rule. It is possible that they are in fact harrowed and thus not apprentices, but that's not alltogether clear.

The second rule too, seem rather lax at times. Circle business seem to cover a wide range of things. From fighting darkspawn (DAO, numerous examples) and leading Orlesian armies (Stolen throne, page 180-183), to serving as court mages (DAO, epilogue and Severan in Stolen Throne) and visiting noble festivities in other countries (DA2:MotA, circle Bethany) to plain cataloguing plants (DAA) and leaving for unspecified reasons (Finn, Witchhunt). Oh, and let's not forget Wilhelm who apparently got leave to raise a family of all things.
There seem to be a great range of reasons and often little consulting between knight-commander and First Enchanter. In Finn's case, it's not even the two senior officials granting permission. Kirkwall does stand in stark contrast to this however, where very few people were given leave. But even there Bethany did get permission leave. Possibly twice.

The third one seem to be waived most often as you point out. The templars, by and large, seem to prefer taking mages alive (probably a sound practise). Most egregious example being notorious escapee Anders, but also as it happens... Jowan. But even Meredith seem to accept this practise when she spares Alain (twice), Grace (once), Evelina (once, prior to her becoming an abomination) and Emile (once).
Of course... there's the unlucky ones... such as Aneirin and anyone that meets Ser Kerras.

All in all... this policy seems unevenly applied. In the best examples, the only restriction mages seem to have is that they have to talk to someone first. In the worst they're confined to their cells on pain of death. So while it can be horribly confining, this is not universally true apparently... despite what the "law" says.

That's not saying mages have it easy mind. On a good day, it's probably better inside the circle than for the average commoner. But there's no guarantee you'll have a good day... ever.

[Inprea]

Sir JK wrote...
It's correct that these is the situation regarding mobility that mages face, one of many restrictions upon their freedom. But like you mention with the third clause, it seems it is often waived or not as serious as the letter of the law would imply.

In the random encounter with circle mages in DAO, we see one senior enchanter accompanied by two of his apprentices. Suggesting that there are in fact exception to the first rule. It is possible that they are in fact harrowed and thus not apprentices, but that's not alltogether clear.

The second rule too, seem rather lax at times. Circle business seem to cover a wide range of things. From fighting darkspawn (DAO, numerous examples) and leading Orlesian armies (Stolen throne, page 180-183), to serving as court mages (DAO, epilogue and Severan in Stolen Throne) and visiting noble festivities in other countries (DA2:MotA, circle Bethany) to plain cataloguing plants (DAA) and leaving for unspecified reasons (Finn, Witchhunt). Oh, and let's not forget Wilhelm who apparently got leave to raise a family of all things.
There seem to be a great range of reasons and often little consulting between knight-commander and First Enchanter. In Finn's case, it's not even the two senior officials granting permission. Kirkwall does stand in stark contrast to this however, where very few people were given leave. But even there Bethany did get permission leave. Possibly twice.

The third one seem to be waived most often as you point out. The templars, by and large, seem to prefer taking mages alive (probably a sound practise). Most egregious example being notorious escapee Anders, but also as it happens... Jowan. But even Meredith seem to accept this practise when she spares Alain (twice), Grace (once), Evelina (once, prior to her becoming an abomination) and Emile (once).
Of course... there's the unlucky ones... such as Aneirin and anyone that meets Ser Kerras.

All in all... this policy seems unevenly applied. In the best examples, the only restriction mages seem to have is that they have to talk to someone first. In the worst they're confined to their cells on pain of death. So while it can be horribly confining, this is not universally true apparently... despite what the "law" says.

That's not saying mages have it easy mind. On a good day, it's probably better inside the circle than for the average commoner. But there's no guarantee you'll have a good day... ever.

I believe this should mentioned. In the cases of the mages you listed how many of them had powerful and influential friends outside of the circle? At the time of witch hunt the Warden is officially the hero of the nation, a grey warden and potentially even a noble or knight commander. That's a lot of power and influence to pretty much do as they want.

In Bethany's case Hawk is by that time the Champion which carries a good deal of politicial power or at the very least a wealthy member of the upper society. with title. Once again that's a good bit of finanical and political muscle to throw around.

Even in Wilhelm's case he's in good with Maric who sees him as an asset.

How many of those mages are allowed to leave without having some wealthy or influence person pushing for them? 

[TheKomandorShepard]

Wasn't Wilhelm war hero something like mage hero of ferelden who leaves warden?They want kill Anders and Jowan (if he goes to circle he is dead even flags in witch hunt says that) , but Anders escape at least that devs try to tell us.Play as magi and speak with duncan and they tell you only few mages are allowed to fight with darkspawn , mages who are on high-position in society probably escaped from chantry influence by actions like Wynne after blight or Wilhelm and possible mage Hawke. Finn was recruited by hero of ferelden or at least warden-commander who saved country and Ferelden circle is gentlest circle.And apostates are being killed even in awakening on their board is that they want kill them and you can help and if you let jowan go on their board they want kill him too what he do when you meet him he is helping others.Alain is only spared when Hawke tell that Alain should be spared.

Modifié par TheKomandorShepard, 06 juillet 2013 - 03:23 .

[MisterJB]

I'd like to add to Sir JK's post by reminding everyone that Rhys claimed that mages were allowed to visit Val-Royeaux and buy personal proprierty before tensions increased to the point they were in "Asunder".

[Sir JK]

Inprea wrote...

I believe this should mentioned. In the cases of the mages you listed how many of them had powerful and influential friends outside of the circle? At the time of witch hunt the Warden is officially the hero of the nation, a grey warden and potentially even a noble or knight commander. That's a lot of power and influence to pretty much do as they want.

In Bethany's case Hawk is by that time the Champion which carries a good deal of politicial power or at the very least a wealthy member of the upper society. with title. Once again that's a good bit of finanical and political muscle to throw around.

Even in Wilhelm's case he's in good with Maric who sees him as an asset.

How many of those mages are allowed to leave without having some wealthy or influence person pushing for them? 

A fair counterargument, one I should have seen coming too. Thank you for raising it.

The answer is of course: Virtually all of them.
We don't really know about Ines or the Orlesian mage buying the blackmarsh, but other than that they're either connected to the wealthy and powerful... or performing some sort of service for someone who can vouch for them.
Or... as Mr JB points out... short shopping trips (those may be accompanied by templars though).

And indeed, as we see with Huon and Evelina, they are very much not allowed out of the tower. For unknown reasons. But it is, as I suspect someone will point out, cases of mages with low social position not being allowed these leaves. The words of Anders seem to support this as well... though he's about as biased a source as we can get.

This could be an indication that power, like it always is, is an extenuating circumstance. Not an unreasonable conclusion, but one we should take care with.

What it still shows us however, is that mages are on occassion allowed leave. For various reasons. So they're not completely restricted, even if it's not terribly common for them to travel. The situation, in this regard at least, is not universally nightmarish (but it can be)... even if not remotely easy.

[Nightdragon8]

yes as it seems the system used to be alot more flexable. until recently. What I wanna know is the reasons things got so bad.

I can only think the mages ended up killing people, otherwise there was no reason other than to power grab of templars.

[MWImexico]

Sir JK wrote...
...
That's not saying mages have it easy mind. On a good day, it's probably better inside the circle than for the average commoner. But there's no guarantee you'll have a good day... ever.

I won't say that. I have recently re-read the beginning of "Asunder", frankly the situation of the circle described in the very first pages seems awful.

Cole (page 1) :"...Few of the tower's templars were kind, and most believed that mages constantly conspired to commit unspeakable horrors ..."

[LobselVith8]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Wasn't Wilhelm war hero something like mage hero of ferelden who leaves warden?They want kill Anders and Jowan (if he goes to circle he is dead even flags in witch hunt says that) , but Anders escape at least that devs try to tell us.

Wilhelm was a war hero, but not a Grey Warden. He might have been given a royal boon for his service, like Loghain, which would explain his freedom and why he was allowed to have a family.

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Play as magi and speak with duncan and they tell you only few mages are allowed to fight with darkspawn , mages who are on high-position in society probably escaped from chantry influence by actions like Wynne after blight or Wilhelm and possible mage Hawke. Finn was recruited by hero of ferelden or at least warden-commander who saved country and Ferelden circle is gentlest circle.

Even The Warden from the Circle of Ferelden can condemn it as oppressive, which Wynne (of all people) never contests - to the point of saying he should try to change this, and that this is her dream. I'd argue that the Circle of Rivain may be more liberal, given the revelations made in WoT. 

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

And apostates are being killed even in awakening on their board is that they want kill them and you can help and if you let jowan go on their board they want kill him too what he do when you meet him he is helping others.Alain is only spared when Hawke tell that Alain should be spared.

It's a brutal institution, which is why some mages have resisted it for centuries. When Hawke helps bring the Starkhaven mages to the Circle of Kirkwall, Meredith also kills mages to inspire fear among the others.

While templars can bring back a mage (like Anders, who Irving argued in favor of being brought back rather than killed), the attempted killing of the child Aneirin by his templar trackers shows that this isn't always the case with runaway mages.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 06 juillet 2013 - 05:17 .

[TheKomandorShepard]

Lobsel i mean not Wilhelm is warden but our warden who can leave gray wardens ,technically he is apostate but because of his hero status chantry can't touch him. About Ferelden circle , yeah in magi origin Greagoir try punish warden even if he helped them so i can imagine that and when Irving try give advice warden before harrowing Greagoir immediately interrupts.

[MisterJB]

MWImexico wrote...
I won't say that. I have recently re-read the beginning of "Asunder", frankly the situation of the circle described in the very first pages seems awful.

Cole (page 1) :"...Few of the tower's templars were kind, and most believed that mages constantly conspired to commit unspeakable horrors ..."

Why exactly did you think that we saw Templars walking round the Circle fully armored if not because they fear they will have to defend themselves from blood mages or abominations at a second's notice?
Templars don't trust mages, no one trusts mages, that's not news. I'd still wager the people living in Drakon's former palace (because that is where the orlesian circle was extablished) live better than the poor sods in Darktown.
But I guess they're not important because they lead uninteresting lives. It's much cooler to defend the arcane warriors capable of making fire fall from the sky.

Modifié par MisterJB, 06 juillet 2013 - 06:12 .

[MWImexico]

MisterJB wrote...

MWImexico wrote...
I won't say that. I have recently re-read the beginning of "Asunder", frankly the situation of the circle described in the very first pages seems awful.

Cole (page 1) :"...Few of the tower's templars were kind, and most believed that mages constantly conspired to commit unspeakable horrors ..."

Why exactly did you think that we saw Templars walking round the Circle fully armored if not because they fear they will have to defend themselves from blood mages or abominations at a second's notice?
Templars don't trust mages, no one trusts mages, that's not news. I'd still wager the people living in Drakon's former palace (because that is where the orlesian circle was extablished) live better than the poor sods in Darktown.
But I guess they're not important because they lead uninteresting lives. It's much cooler to defend the arcane warriors capable of making fire fall from the sky.

I believe you are missing my point. Here I blame the templars for being excessif, they fear too much and this fear prevent them for doing their job properly. If you re-read the first pages of Asunder you can't possibly miss that, the situation described is awful. I belive templars should correct their behaviour, fear/paranoia does not justify that.

Now, of course there is poor people who suffer elsewhere but there is also average people who are happy to enjoy their freedom, nobles/richs or simple farmers.

If (the true) Cole had not being brutalised during his arrival to the tower, he would probably still be alive by the end of he book and all this spirit/demon thing would never have happened.

Modifié par MWImexico, 06 juillet 2013 - 07:05 .

[Inprea]

MisterJB wrote...

MWImexico wrote...
I won't say that. I have recently re-read the beginning of "Asunder", frankly the situation of the circle described in the very first pages seems awful.

Cole (page 1) :"...Few of the tower's templars were kind, and most believed that mages constantly conspired to commit unspeakable horrors ..."

Why exactly did you think that we saw Templars walking round the Circle fully armored if not because they fear they will have to defend themselves from blood mages or abominations at a second's notice?
Templars don't trust mages, no one trusts mages, that's not news. I'd still wager the people living in Drakon's former palace (because that is where the orlesian circle was extablished) live better than the poor sods in Darktown.
But I guess they're not important because they lead uninteresting lives. It's much cooler to defend the arcane warriors capable of making fire fall from the sky.

So are you saying the mages are responsible for the living conditions of dark town? Just because others are in desperate conditions doesn't mean the way the mages are being treated is right or tolerable or should someone that's just been robbed be grateful and keep quiet that they didn't get beaten to?

You talk as if the mages should be grateful for their current living conditions but who actually pays for the mages upkeep? As I recall from speaking to the tranquil near the beginning of origins the circle gets most of its wealth from the sell of magic items not from the chantry. It even seems that the templars dip into the money the mages earn considering how Meredith was encouraging sells.

Where do you get the notion that it's the templars paying for the upkeep of the mages and not more like the templars stealing the money the mages earned as well as their freedom, liberties and children? What makes you so sure the mages couldn't earn themselves an even better life if they were allowed to truly use their magic and practice this like crop enritchment or healing? 

[MisterJB]

Inprea wrote...
So are you saying the mages are responsible for the living conditions of dark town? Just because others are in desperate conditions doesn't mean the way the mages are being treated is right or tolerable or should someone that's just been robbed be grateful and keep quiet that they didn't get beaten to?

Hum, no. Sir JK said that the Circles, in certain cases, provide better living conditions than those given to the average thedosian to which MWI responded he did not think it was so. I showed him a group of people living in much worse conditions than the Circle mages.
That's all my post extend to, really altough we can discuss this if you wish.

You talk as if the mages should be grateful for their current living conditions but who actually pays for the mages upkeep? As I recall from speaking to the tranquil near the beginning of origins the circle gets most of its wealth from the sell of magic items not from the chantry. It even seems that the templars dip into the money the mages earn considering how Meredith was encouraging sells.

Where do you get the notion that it's the templars paying for the upkeep of the mages and not more like the templars stealing the money the mages earned as well as their freedom, liberties and children? What makes you so sure the mages couldn't earn themselves an even better life if they were allowed to truly use their magic and practice this like crop enritchment or healing? 

Actions do not occur in a vacuum. The "freedom" or the pursuit of it by mages will, inevitably, have consequences on the general population of Thedas.Therefore, if we are to dicusse an hypothetical freedom of mages, we must also discuss the effect it will have on the people of Thedas to determine if it is something that should be pursued. That is, assuming we are taking to wellfare of others into account and not just claiming that the individual freedom of a mage is that much more important than the lives of the non-mages who surround him/her.

If the actions of mages affected no one but themselves, then there would be no dicussion and your claim that "because someone else has it worse, doesn't mean I don't have it bad and shouldn't work towards improving it" would be the uncontested truth. But that is not so because in this case, "improving it" might make those who have it worse than you become even more deplorable.

Logically, one of the relevant factors in such a study would be the living conditions of mages in the Circles versus those of "free" non-mages outside of it; hence, why Pro-Templars mention how certain "free" people live in slums such as Darktown while mages live in Drakon's former palace; as well as how the freedom of mages would affect these people; who now not only live in horrible conditions, but have yet to contend with blood mages, abominations, untrained mages or just flat out having yet another class above them; not to mention how the pursuit of this freedom involving armed conflict the likes of which not seen since Andraste walked Thedas.

Yes, I am aware that mages provide their own upkeep; altough the Chantry provides the buildings; and trust me when I say that I am frigthfully aware of how easily mages can earn wealth with their power. That is why I believe equality is impossible, BTW.

[MisterJB]

MWImexico wrote...
I believe you are missing my point. Here I blame the templars for being excessif, they fear too much and this fear prevent them for doing their job properly. If you re-read the first pages of Asunder you can't possibly miss that, the situation described is awful. I belive templars should correct their behaviour, fear/paranoia does not justify that.

Now, of course there is poor people who suffer elsewhere but there is also average people who are happy to enjoy their freedom, nobles/richs or simple farmers.

If (the true) Cole had not being brutalised during his arrival to the tower, he would probably still be alive by the end of he book and all this spirit/demon thing would never have happened.

What you claimed was that you didn't think that Circles can be preferable to life on the outside. I pointed you to Darktown to prove otherwise.

What happened with Cole was a result of neglect, not fear; it's not justifiable, of course, but it's a different subject. Fear can lead to abuses but I see no evidence of it here. Ultimately, templars also exist to protect the world from magic and some suspicion is only healthy.
When they start Tranquilizing mages for being outside their quarters after curfew, then you'll be right.

[vpacheco1984]

MisterJB wrote...

MWImexico wrote...
I believe you are missing my point. Here I blame the templars for being excessif, they fear too much and this fear prevent them for doing their job properly. If you re-read the first pages of Asunder you can't possibly miss that, the situation described is awful. I belive templars should correct their behaviour, fear/paranoia does not justify that.

Now, of course there is poor people who suffer elsewhere but there is also average people who are happy to enjoy their freedom, nobles/richs or simple farmers.

If (the true) Cole had not being brutalised during his arrival to the tower, he would probably still be alive by the end of he book and all this spirit/demon thing would never have happened.

What you claimed was that you didn't think that Circles can be preferable to life on the outside. I pointed you to Darktown to prove otherwise.

What happened with Cole was a result of neglect, not fear; it's not justifiable, of course, but it's a different subject. Fear can lead to abuses but I see no evidence of it here. Ultimately, templars also exist to protect the world from magic and some suspicion is only healthy.
When they start Tranquilizing mages for being outside their quarters after curfew, then you'll be right.

They did that in Kirkwall or at least it was hinted at.

As for Cole it was a rsult of neglect and the injuries he got from the templars caused by their fear and hate of mages. What about what they did to Rhys, I understand the need to detain him and question him but what they did could have killed him. No food or water for four days with a concussion no less. If it hadn't been for Wynne using her influnce given to her by the Divine they would have left him in there to die horribly. The mages are treated horrible by the templars and that is caused by the fear and hate that is drilled into them by the Chantry. 

[TheKomandorShepard]

1:27 (whole conversation) it's hatred to mages for me and he is one of that "good" templars still fanatical ass i don't even metion templars torturing mages as we can hear in gallows if we go close enough bars.

more... also in 0:11 we can see bars where it can be heard.

Templars are like Orlesian chevaliers above law and can do anything they like whitout consequences no one care like no one care what others do to elves.

Modifié par TheKomandorShepard, 06 juillet 2013 - 09:14 .

[MisterJB]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...
Templars are like Orlesian chevaliers above law and can do anything they like whitout consequences no one care like no one care what others do to elves.

Oh, please. Right off the top of my head, I can come up with fours references solely in DA2 that imply templars have accountability and can't do justwhat they please.

1-Hawke can say to Alrik "The Chantry frowns upon templars who take advantage of their charges."
2-Alan says that the Templars in Kirkwall beat them and nobody does a thing. This means that in Starkhaven, either the mages weren't beaten or, if they were, someone would do something about it.
3-The fact that Karras threatens Alan into not telling anyone he has been raping him, shows he fears repercussion if he found out.
4-Meredith can't even search the tower after several Circle blood mages were found without asking Elthina first .

And that's just the top of my head. I'm certain that if I were to scour the games, I would find more.

[TheKomandorShepard]

MisterJB wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...
Templars are like Orlesian chevaliers above law and can do anything they like whitout consequences no one care like no one care what others do to elves.

Oh, please. Right off the top of my head, I can come up with fours references solely in DA2 that imply templars have accountability and can't do justwhat they please.

1-Hawke can say to Alrik "The Chantry frowns upon templars who take advantage of their charges."
2-Alan says that the Templars in Kirkwall beat them and nobody does a thing. This means that in Starkhaven, either the mages weren't beaten or, if they were, someone would do something about it.
3-The fact that Karras threatens Alan into not telling anyone he has been raping him, shows he fears repercussion if he found out.
4-Meredith can't even search the tower after several Circle blood mages were found without asking Elthina first .

And that's just the top of my head. I'm certain that if I were to scour the games, I would find more.

Pff you think that Orlais supports what chevaliers do they do that quietly but they are untouchable and can do what ever they want.Cole and others are best examples no one will care besides mages.And yes if hawke can hear tortured mage you think others templars can't? Templars have power above country as we can see in magi boon no one can touch them , chantry have too keep good reputation and hide it publicly condemn that kind of actions but inside we rly see something other , even Irving have to play by their rules to accuse Lilly they have to caputre her when she helping (that templars unwillingly judge own peoples) but when it's about mage they don't even have to capture him just rumors are enough.

Modifié par TheKomandorShepard, 06 juillet 2013 - 09:39 .