1656 réponses à ce sujet

[Lotion Soronarr]

alexbing88 wrote...


Sorry for getting back to you so late - I had been away.

FWIW I don't want to risk causing offense through disagreement, and I must implore you to not be offended even if you might not agree with what I say.

Again you don't have to agree; you could argue that what you propose does not apply the rule beyond a critical frequency. Whether it does or not is an emprical question. Even if DA3 Chantry does end up applying the rule beyond critical frequency, you can still argue that BW fracked their own lore to enforce this result. So once again, you are totally free to keep your stance as is.

No problemo.

The reason I asked is because I've ran into multiple people here who who follow the moral code to whatever end.
Destruction of the entire galaxy is acceptable in persuit of "morals".

In other words, does the sense of personal inner piece and "warm and fuzzies" and personal definition of what is moral, trump everything else, regardless of cost?

[Lotion Soronarr]

Xilizhra wrote...

Sir JK wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Keep in mind that even on a good day, there's still always the fear of it instantly becoming a bad day.

Just so... I guess one could say that as a rule you are just one guard-shift away from a bad day.

Which is utterly unacceptable.

Hence the revolution.

Hmm..you could also say that the people in the town with a mage are just one bad mage day away from being killed or sucked dry.

Hence the Circles.

[Ieldra]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

alexbing88 wrote...
Sorry for getting back to you so late - I had been away.

FWIW I don't want to risk causing offense through disagreement, and I must implore you to not be offended even if you might not agree with what I say.

Again you don't have to agree; you could argue that what you propose does not apply the rule beyond a critical frequency. Whether it does or not is an emprical question. Even if DA3 Chantry does end up applying the rule beyond critical frequency, you can still argue that BW fracked their own lore to enforce this result. So once again, you are totally free to keep your stance as is.

No problemo.

The reason I asked is because I've ran into multiple people here who who follow the moral code to whatever end.
Destruction of the entire galaxy is acceptable in persuit of "morals".

In other words, does the sense of personal inner piece and "warm and fuzzies" and personal definition of what is moral, trump everything else, regardless of cost?

Let me chime in on this and emphasize that I do not belong to this group. However, I do not think the danger mages represent justifies the level of repression they're subject to in the Circle system. It is justified to keep the apprentices on the Circle premises, i.e. those who haven't learned to control their power. For the others, I don't see that the Circle system results in an improvement in the situation that justifies keeping them interned.

Also, any empirical evidence has to take into account that an oppressive system like the Circle also fosters the kind of problem it is created to prevent, and the debate has to take into account that the freedom to move about and use your abilities for lawful purposes is a high value for most people, and thus removing it requires a solid justification with a good of higher value, and that only after alternatives with less drastic side effects have been explored and proven unsatisfactory.

Lastly, a certain level of personal risk is usually regarded as acceptable, and in societies where nobles can act with relative impunity towards those with lower status, the danger of a rare rogue mage appears not particularly out of proportion. The Chantry is hypocritical if it puts forward the safety of the common people as the rationale for the Circle. Rather, you might come to the conclusion that it's supported mainly by nobles who don't want to be at risk from people they can't control for a change, while having no problems with continuing their own practices.

Perhaps you cannot put too much blame on the Chantry for having created the Circle system in the first place after the wars with Tevinter, but you can blame them for not exploring any alternatives in a thousand years, and you can blame them for continuing the system based mainly on ideological prejudice and the support of the upper classes in order to maintain the status quo.  

I wouldn't be surprised if the city elves sided with the mages in the end.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 08 juillet 2013 - 11:35 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Your theory of the reasoning behind the circles (upper classes) is fine and dandy...except it's a theory. A vaid one, and there is certanly many things any government would fear from a mage - especially blood magic.

The danger of a rouge mage is continually DOWNPLAYED in the game, for gameplay and balance reasons. In actual books, mages are far more fearsome.


Now, as to the question do the Circles cause more mages to go to extreemes than they would normally do? It is possible. However, any system that restrict mages will have that effect. Put a man in prison and you will have prison riots and escape attempts, no matter how nice the prison is. Some people don't want ANY restrictions on themselves.
That said, even if we assume it is true, that doesn't mean the system fails. While more mages might fall, those mages are also more easily contained in a safe enviroment.
Thus instead of 100 dead people in a village you have a dead mage and/or a few dead templars.

From a strictly numerical point of view - even if we assume most such mages wouldn't go abomination in a vilalge - it seems worth it.

Things is, some of the practices of the circles do seem unnecessary (like taking away the child of a pregnant mage) - but we do NOT know how they came to be. Are they a product of practical experience? Or dogma?

From my earlier discussions with DG, it seemes to me he implied that for the most part, the current rules are the romer.

[MWImexico]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Thus instead of 100 dead people in a village you have a dead mage and/or a few dead templars.

From a strictly numerical point of view - even if we assume most such mages wouldn't go abomination in a vilalge - it seems worth it.

Would you be willing to die here, right now, if it would save 100 people who are unknown to you?

Of course you are not a mage (so not dangerous) but what if you were a mage, would you agree?

[DKJaigen]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...



From a strictly numerical point of view - even if we assume most such mages wouldn't go abomination in a vilalge - it seems worth it.

Untill the system sparks a war and kills millions.

[Ieldra]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Now, as to the question do the
Circles cause more mages to go to extreemes than they would normally do? It is possible. However, any system that restrict mages will have that effect. Put a man in prison and you will have prison riots and escape attempts, no matter how nice the prison is. Some people don't want ANY restrictions on themselves.

It's safe to extend that to "nobody wants any restrictions on themselves, while often being totally ok with restrictions on others." We don't really value equality, it's just where we end up because most people think "I really want more than the other but I guess I can live with having the same if that means the other won't attack me. As long as the other hasn't got more, then I'll do the attacking..."

As I said, it's no wonder there's a mage revolution. If the means you use to prevent some "bad stuff" aren't seen as commensurate with the benefit, your system is bound to fail before long.

Things is, some of
the practices of the circles do seem unnecessary (like taking away the child of a pregnant mage) - but we do NOT know how they came to be. Are they a product of practical experience? Or dogma?

We don't know any stories of children being kept by mages causing some disaster, while stories about possession and rogue blood mages exist. I'd say this is a practice that survives because of the weight of tradition only.

From my earlier discussions with DG, it seemes to me he implied that for the most part, the current rules are the romer.

It's easy to say "possession happens, therefor the Circle is justified". The statement is not valid though, without estimating the actual risk and weighing it against the means of containment. Compare this to "Possesssions happen to one mage of a hundred in the course of their lifetime, and result in an average of 20 deaths per event. Therefore something must be done to prevent or contain it". This makes it clear that (1) this is a value judgment - it is not a foregone conclusion that the facts justify the expense of implementing preventive measures - and (2) even should we agree that this evidence justifies preventive measures, it is again a value judgment which kind of preventive measure it justifies.

And this doesn't even take into account the side effects of the preventive measures, such as mages feeling they've got nothing to lose. Or think of Dairsmuid. Yeah, they violated the rules but the rules are unfair and they didn't harm anyone before someone came to harm them. Mages are dangerous? Of course they are, to those who want to intern them with no sufficient cause. Anyone would be.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 08 juillet 2013 - 12:31 .

[MWImexico]

Ieldra2 wrote...

And this doesn't even take into account the side effects of the preventive measures, such as mages feeling they've got nothing to lose. Or think of Dairsmuid. Yeah, they violated the rules but the rules are unfair and they didn't harm anyone before someone came to harm them. Mages are dangerous? Of course they are, to those who want to intern them with no sufficient cause. Anyone would be.

Exactly, accept death seems impossible when you know that there are alternatives that your executioner (or the system behind him) refuses to consider.

"And now you die for the greatest good"

"Cool"

Modifié par MWImexico, 08 juillet 2013 - 12:57 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

DKJaigen wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
From a strictly numerical point of view - even if we assume most such mages wouldn't go abomination in a vilalge - it seems worth it.

Untill the system sparks a war and kills millions.

And you assume that if mages were runnign free, that such a war or loss of life would never occur?

Not to mention that "kills millions" is something that we're yet to see happen. I kinda doubt those numbers.

[Lotion Soronarr]

MWImexico wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Thus instead of 100 dead people in a village you have a dead mage and/or a few dead templars.

From a strictly numerical point of view - even if we assume most such mages wouldn't go abomination in a vilalge - it seems worth it.

Would you be willing to die here, right now, if it would save 100 people who are unknown to you?

Of course you are not a mage (so not dangerous) but what if you were a mage, would you agree?

If my death can save 100?
I might.
Natrually I'd prefer if I could live AND save those 100, but if you can't have both....
But I'm weird that way.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Ieldra2 wrote...
As I said, it's no wonder there's a mage revolution. If the means you use to prevent some "bad stuff" aren't seen as commensurate with the benefit, your system is bound to fail before long.

Alas, nothing is eternal.
All system, even the most stable ones, are doomed to fail sooner or later.

The Circles are far from a perfect system. But that's the problem. There is no perfect system.
Whatever system you replace it with will also fail. Maybe in a decate. Maybe in a centruy. Maybe it will last as long as the Circles.

From my earlier discussions with DG, it seemes to me he implied that for the most part, the current rules are the romer.

It's easy to say "possession happens, therefor the Circle is justified". The statement is not valid though, without estimating the actual risk and weighing it against the means of containment.

I was speaking specificly of the mage mothers and children.
Long ago in ye times of DA:O, Gaider comented that was causing some problems.

I don't have a direct quote, but that's the impression I got anyway - that initially mages and their children weren't separated, but it ended up causing all sorts of problems.

Compare this to "Possesssions happen to one mage of a hundred in the course of their lifetime, and result in an average of 20 deaths per event. Therefore something must be done to prevent or contain it". This makes it clear that (1) this is a value judgment - it is not a foregone conclusion that the facts justify the expense of implementing preventive measures - and (2) even should we agree that this evidence justifies preventive measures, it is again a value judgment which kind of preventive measure it justifies.

I kidna think 20 is a on a very low side for an estimate, given that Connor as a chilld and Merediths syster both killeed 70-100 easily.

[MWImexico]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

MWImexico wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Thus instead of 100 dead people in a village you have a dead mage and/or a few dead templars.

From a strictly numerical point of view - even if we assume most such mages wouldn't go abomination in a vilalge - it seems worth it.

Would you be willing to die here, right now, if it would save 100 people who are unknown to you?

Of course you are not a mage (so not dangerous) but what if you were a mage, would you agree?

If my death can save 100?
I might.
Natrually I'd prefer if I could live AND save those 100, but if you can't have both....
But I'm weird that way.

If it's true, then I believe you are not different from the average mages in DA universe.

[MisterJB]

Inprea wrote...
Did that group represent the average in Dark Town? They are after all refugees in a city that doesn't exactly welcome them. It seems that using those living in a slum would be intentionally scewing the comparison away from the average and towards the worse case scenario. It would be like trying to claim the average person lived like they down in high town. As mages are well educated it seems like you'd need to compare them to a group of equal standing if you want to talk about how they should live so I believe you need to compare them to other forms of skilled labor or craftsmen not to refugees.

Should we? After all, the primary claim of pro-mages is that the lack of freedom makes the lives of mages miserable. Those living in Darktown; many of them unwelcome refugees, yes; have that vaunted freedom but it seems to me, it would be preferable to live in a Circle.
But who is the average Kirkwaller, anyway? The one living in Lowtown? Well, that is not so much better a prospective given that Lowtown is described as:
"Today, Lowtown is a labyrinth of shantytowns, corridors, and
hexagonal courtyards—"hexes" in the local parlance. Lowtown's poorest
live in caves hewn out of the cliff face. The district is shoddily built
and bears scars caused by collapsing walls. Foundry smoke smothers the
area. Only a cold winter storm clears the air, but the icy wind howling
over the mouths of old mineshafts hardly counts as relief.
Occasionally, these Darktown
shafts erupt with gouts of foul air known as chokedamp. It's not
uncommon to find whole slums silently suffocated, frozen in the midst of
everyday activity."

What about the average fereldan? Even in the capital, the houses appear to be of not so great stature and be composed of three our four rooms. If you live in isolated farms, chances are you're easy prey to darkspawn or bandits. And as much as the fereldans seem to value freedom, their legal procedures appear to be no more complex than "The peasant says what happened, the Constable says what he thinks happened and the lord says what is going to happen."

What value would you put on knowing that should you have a child someone will take that child away and you'll never see said child again? For all you know the templar took your infant son or daughter and tossed them into the lake. It's unlikely but for all you know that's what happened.

It's beyond unlikely, it's nearly inconceivable. Mages are valuable natural resources the Chantry has no intention of wasting.
One way or the other, this justifies a reform of the Circle System; which is something I never opposed; rather than its dissolution.

Allowing themselves to remain locked up will also have an affect. Tell me. How many people do you believe the church has killed by claiming that the study of the body and how it works is blood magic and therefor evil? How many lives has the suppression of knowledge cost? Yet the church uses blood magic in the controling of mages.

I know what you are referring to. Unfortunately, I can't recall which piece of equipment had that particular description (something related to Orzammar, I think) and thus can't properly comment it.
If you find it, I'll be more than happy to offer a counterargument if possible.

The templars are suppose to protect the mages as well yet have you ever seen a templar protect a mage? Have you ever seen a templar punished for beating, raping or murdering a mage? I can't help but think back to the tower in DA:O. When the tower was over run with abominations the templars locked the mages in the tower with the abominations and prepared to murder them. That seems like quite a failing of their responsibilities. They sure didn't protect the mages and none of that there was nothing I could do bull. It was the templars responsiblity to protect the mages that followed the rules and they failed. They did worse then fail they locked those mages in with the abominations just like they lock them into the fade with a demon.

Templars are but human and thus fallible. Certainly, they failed in their charges to prevent demons from overruning the tower but we're talking unthinkable worst case scenario here. Dozens of Abominations, blood mages and demons form a veritable army and thus, the numbers at Gregoir's disposal at the moment simply were not enough to fight their way to the top of the tower even if they believed someone had survived, which they didn't. The only reason Wynne was, at all, able to save some mages is because she was touched by one the most powerful spirits that exist (as per Mr.Gaider, the corruption of Faith is Pride, who are the highest echelons of demonic hierarchy) which is something the Templars couldn't possibly have predicted.

We do know Templars protect mages if they are able. For instance, the tale of Ser Reiner (http://dragonage.wik...of_the_Resolute)

As for templar accountability, yes, I admit that is cause for concerns but I don't believe it is nonexistent. Only right off the top of my head, I can recall four instances where evidence of templars having to answer for their actions presented itself.
1- Hawke can say "The Chantry frowns of templars who take advantage of their charges.
2- Alan can say that the templars in Kirkwall beat them and that nobody says anything. That implies either Starkhaven templars didn't beat them or that somebody would do something if they did.
3-Ser Karras threatens Alan with Tranquility if he tells anyone he has been to his quarters meaning he is afraid of it being discovered that he is a rapist. Even under Meredith's regime, sexually abusing mages was likely something not tolerated.
4-Meredith can't search the Circle without Elthina's permission.
And that is only off the top of my head. I could probrably find more if I scoured the games and books.

Should the fear of making things worse keep us from trying to make things better? It has been said that humans are more inclined to suffer then try to improve their station for fear of the unknown. What do you expect people to do when their suffering has surpassed that fear?

I expect people to do what the non-mages of the time of Andraste did. And we can see the result.
When messing with the social order of a continent, caution is likely warranted. What can this violent rebellion accomplish beyond widening the gap and being yet another battle in the eternal war between mages and non-mages?

Don't those citizens you mention already have to deal with blood mages and abominations?

Abominations and blood mage appear to be rarer outside of the insane asylum Kirkwall was becoming. Partially because most mages are in the Circle and partially because whatever apostates there are, they need to keep a low profile if they don't want the templars to come knocking.
Which is yet another advantage of having a non-magical police force trained to deal with magical threats and with reasons to keep non-mages safe. Mages like Tahrone who would be ruling over herds of slaves in the Imperium have to keep their heads low in Andrastian lands lest they be cut off.

Isn't a templar yet another social rank above those people you mention?

Anyone can join the templars. Keran did so to provide for his sister.
Not everyone can be a mage.

I'm reminded of a group of templars in chapter 3 of DA2 preparing to kill a woman who simply providing her cousin with a place to stay for the night and some food.

That's true but if you are playing the templar side, Ser Agatha(templar) steps foward to protect the families of apostates from that extremist templar.

It seems to me given that the templars have been hunting, imprisoning, killing or murdering mages for hundreds of years there has been a conflict happening for quite some time.

Perhaps. I see it as no different for the legal system of the Western World. Place restriction upon people from birth; not because of what they've done but because of what they might do; so that we can co-exist as a functional society.
Certainly, mages have stricter restrictions than everyone else but only to reflect the heigthened danger they represent.

Are things equal now? If you're striving for equality then siding with the templars doesn't seem to be working either.

I've already said I believe equality between mages and non-mages is impossible. If something is impossible, then there is no point in striving towards it.
All we can do is pick a side. I'm with the non-mages.

[TTTX]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Could she? It wasn't clear. What was clear that mages made a big ruckus over having the tower searched.
Now, does that sound like a big deal if as many claim, mages have no privacy whatsoever? If there are no doors and templars can watch mages bathe and mages have no privacy - what is the point of a tower search?

Face it, a tower search should be comeptlely lawfull and simple, especially given the circumstances with the blood mages.

I would like to point out we actually don't why Meredith wanted the tower search (Could be because of the bloodmages or simply because of the idol she has been holding on to for the last three years) or why Orsino was against it (Of course there is the research he got from serial killer, but we actually don't have any evidence that he hid it in the Circle).

We can only assume why they did as they did.

But I will throw in my two cents on the matter.

At the time of this happening a lot of things has happened in Kirkwall, Meredith has assumed almost total control over Kirkwall refuesing to have the nobles run this city, as is their roll I might add, of course she has her reasons for that as the Templars almost got thrown out of Kirkwall before Hawke came to town, but that had nothing to do with Mages as seen in this link here. 

dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Perrin_Threnhold

She has pretty much destroyed the mage underground, the few that are left (aside from Anders) have turned to bloodmagic in desperation, however nothing suggest they still have ties to the Circle after this has happened.

As seen if choose to openly go against Meredith about the treatment mages we actually get to see Meredidth Death squads who are picked by her personally are the most zealots of the Templars and the job is to kill anyone who help mages even for minor crimes as seen in the side quest Noble agenda.

Varric tells that Meredith started to go even harder against the Circle between act 2 and 3 which caused the mages to resist which then made to crack down even more on them, which cause the Mages to resist even more. It was a never ending circle, that should have stopped, but didn't.

The Veil is extremely thin in Kirkwall, because of something Tevinter did a long time ago killing a lot of people in the same place is not a good idea since it will most likely cause a tear in the veil, not to mention this makes it way easier for Demons to cross over, but Mages aren't the only way for them to get into the real world.

There is also that little fact that Meredith had the idol for about 3 years, which increased her paranoia even more then before she got it. This made her a ticking time bomb as much as any mage as she had the most power in Kirkwall and she was even starting to show signs that she didn't like Elthina going and messing in her way of controlling the mages as Meredtih was asked/commanded to go to the Gallows and calm down. She was not happy (she looked really pissed) as you can see on her face.

As for Orsino opposition Meredith over a simple search it could merely be a plot device so why they are where they are (Act 3 is very badly written) or it could simply be that he has had enough of Meredith going around pushing around the mages in the Circle.

Also Orsino did offer the surrender of the Circle and let Meredith do as she pleased getting her search among other things in return he asked she reworked RoA and only punish the mages who had committed crimes and not kill all of them (Remember the Circle have children in them too.) 

If I had the option I would removed both Orsino and Meredith from power and moved the Circle to another place. Kirkwall was one of the worst places to have a circle and if I remember correctly it housed one of if not the biggest circle in all of Thedas.

[Lotion Soronarr]

MWImexico wrote...
If it's true, then I believe you are not different from the average mages in DA universe.

You mean, aside form having no magical ability and not being a gateway to the Fade or a demon beacon?

[MisterJB]

TTTX wrote...
She has pretty much destroyed the mage underground, the few that are left (aside from Anders) have turned to bloodmagic in desperation, however nothing suggest they still have ties to the Circle after this has happened.

True but in the preivous quest, Hawke had uncovered a plot by Circle mages (Grace&Co) to depose Meredith through the use of not only blood magic but also demons.
Given this, it doesn't seem that unresonable to search the Circle to see if any conspirators remained. But on the other hand, it is also not unresonable to oppose Meredith being the one who conducts this search because she has an hard time grasping the meaning of the worst restraint. Note that she is not incapable of it given the fact she spares Alan; who was a blood mage; and Emille; who is just patetic.

Also Orsino did offer the surrender of the Circle and let Meredith do as she pleased getting her search among other things in return he asked she reworked RoA and only punish the mages who had committed crimes and not kill all of them (Remember the Circle have children in them too.) 

But why offer than option only after running to the Circle? Why not present it right in Lowtown? Even if Meredith refuses, all he has to do is run to the Circle, which he does one way or the other.
Wif the reason he was willing to allow Meredith to search the Circle only after he had already been in there for a awhile  was because he had taken that time to conceal the presence of blood magic in the Circle.

[Medhia Nox]

@MWIMexico: I disagree. Lotion did not specify the type of 100 people.

It would seem - if these threads are any indication - that mages would only do something like that for 100 "mages". Or worse - they would kill 100 Templars (dehumanizing them simply by refusing to call them "people" and instead "Templars" - the object of hate) for one mage (the object of "centrism")

One of the most dangerous reasons I can't side with the rebellion as a mage player - fanatical "centrism". Mages are not inherently better (in fact, I believe DA shows them to be quite the opposite in almost every example) - there is no reason to save a mage OVER a non-mage were the choice necessary.

Is it "different" for non-mages? Not much - but if we're saying that non-mages are evil because of centrism - we cannot then ignore the centrism of a powerful minority group capable of doing far greater harm than a mob of peasants.

Change for a better mage life - and vengeance - are NOT the same thing.

[MWImexico]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

MWImexico wrote...
If it's true, then I believe you are not different from the average mages in DA universe.

You mean, aside form having no magical ability and not being a gateway to the Fade or a demon beacon?

I suppose you answered my earlier question without carefully reading it?

"Of course you are not a mage (so not dangerous) but what if you were a mage, would you agree?"

[MWImexico]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@MWIMexico: I disagree. 

with what?

[TTTX]

MisterJB wrote...

TTTX wrote...
She has pretty much destroyed the mage underground, the few that are left (aside from Anders) have turned to bloodmagic in desperation, however nothing suggest they still have ties to the Circle after this has happened.

True but in the preivous quest, Hawke had uncovered a plot by Circle mages (Grace&Co) to depose Meredith through the use of not only blood magic but also demons.
Given this, it doesn't seem that unresonable to search the Circle to see if any conspirators remained. But on the other hand, it is also not unresonable to oppose Meredith being the one who conducts this search because she has an hard time grasping the meaning of the worst restraint. Note that she is not incapable of it given the fact she spares Alan; who was a blood mage; and Emille; who is just patetic.

Also Orsino did offer the surrender of the Circle and let Meredith do as she pleased getting her search among other things in return he asked she reworked RoA and only punish the mages who had committed crimes and not kill all of them (Remember the Circle have children in them too.) 

But why offer than option only after running to the Circle? Why not present it right in Lowtown? Even if Meredith refuses, all he has to do is run to the Circle, which he does one way or the other.
Wif the reason he was willing to allow Meredith to search the Circle only after he had already been in there for a awhile  was because he had taken that time to conceal the presence of blood magic in the Circle.

I agree, but with the idol on her back I think the search would only add if not cause the mental breakdown as happen in the end of DA2. Merdith at the moment she took the idol became a time bomb and because her position of power would be at the very least a tyrant and most likely kill anyone around her, Varric brother kill a lot of people and he wasn't paraniod, not the way Meredith was anyway.

Either way She would have to be removed she couldn't have lead even if Hawke managed to remove the idol from her as seen with Varric's brother.


Bad plot writing, or because he wants to protect his fellow mages, by having a somewhat decent defence Meredith is at this point and time doesn't listen to mages he proberly counted on that she wouldn't listen or accept his surrender, but he tried anyway and failed.
 
Remember he could have very easily run away left his fellow mages to fend for themselves and Meredith could have him removed as the leader of the Circle if she had chosen to accept his surrender, it could have been one of the terms of the surrender.

[Cigne]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Things is, some of the practices of the circles do seem unnecessary (like taking away the child of a pregnant mage) - but we do NOT know how they came to be. Are they a product of practical experience? Or dogma?

We don't know any stories of children being kept by mages causing some disaster, while stories about possession and rogue blood mages exist. I'd say this is a practice that survives because of the weight of tradition only.

The bolded is just one possibility, though. Problems arising between mage and non-mage children, non-mage children being more easily used by rogue blood mages, are a couple of other possibilities.

[Inprea]

[quote]MisterJB wrote...
Should we? After all, the primary claim of pro-mages is that the lack of freedom makes the lives of mages miserable. Those living in Darktown; many of them unwelcome refugees, yes; have that vaunted freedom but it seems to me, it would be preferable to live in a Circle.
But who is the average Kirkwaller, anyway? The one living in Lowtown? Well, that is not so much better a prospective given that Lowtown is described as:
"Today, Lowtown is a labyrinth of shantytowns, corridors, and
hexagonal courtyards—"hexes" in the local parlance. Lowtown's poorest
live in caves hewn out of the cliff face. The district is shoddily built
and bears scars caused by collapsing walls. Foundry smoke smothers the
area. Only a cold winter storm clears the air, but the icy wind howling
over the mouths of old mineshafts hardly counts as relief.
Occasionally, these Darktown
shafts erupt with gouts of foul air known as chokedamp. It's not
uncommon to find whole slums silently suffocated, frozen in the midst of
everyday activity."

What about the average fereldan? Even in the capital, the houses appear to be of not so great stature and be composed of three our four rooms. If you live in isolated farms, chances are you're easy prey to darkspawn or bandits. And as much as the fereldans seem to value freedom, their legal procedures appear to be no more complex than "The peasant says what happened, the Constable says what he thinks happened and the lord says what is going to happen." [/quote]
I have seen several pro-templars also claim that the mages live in luxury. Should the pro-mages use the worse case scenario for a group of mages to represent all mages just as you're using one of the worse case scenarios for a non-mage to represent all mages? You speak of threats to the average person but mages are locked in with their greatest threat. Not just the templars but the templars at least once in their life imprison them with a demon in a do or die scenario. That or the templars destroy their mind. Furthermore how many rooms do you believe each mage truly has as their own? The circle isn't their home. They have one room to themselves that I've seen and that's their bed chamber and even that can be invaded. Templars roam the halls and libraries. Plus if you're an apprentice you don't even have a room to yourself.  
[quote]MisterJB
It's beyond unlikely, it's nearly inconceivable. Mages are valuable natural resources the Chantry has no intention of wasting.
One way or the other, this justifies a reform of the Circle System; which is something I never opposed; rather than its dissolution. [/quote]
I said a mage's child not a mage. Mage parents do not guarantee a mage child after all. You say inconceivable. What about Wynne's apprentice who ran? He was just a child and they ran him through. What would you think if you were one of Ulfric's rape victims and it was his templars carrying your child out the door? You also didn't address what value you put on stealing a mother's child away from her and not even letting her send some coin to provide for that child.

[quote]MisterJB
I know what you are referring to. Unfortunately, I can't recall which piece of equipment had that particular description (something related to Orzammar, I think) and thus can't properly comment it.
If you find it, I'll be more than happy to offer a counterargument if possible. [/quote]

The phylacteries are blood magic. Each time templars claim that blood magic is evil by default and then use a phylactery they are committing the same crime they'd execute a mage for. You also didn't answer the question about templar repressing knowledge. How many deaths have the templars caused by repressing the study of human physiology by claiming it's blood magic? As far as I'm concerned every death that could have been prevented by such studies is on their hands.

[quote]MisterJB
Templars are but human and thus fallible. Certainly, they failed in their charges to prevent demons from overruning the tower but we're talking unthinkable worst case scenario here. Dozens of Abominations, blood mages and demons form a veritable army and thus, the numbers at Gregoir's disposal at the moment simply were not enough to fight their way to the top of the tower even if they believed someone had survived, which they didn't. The only reason Wynne was, at all, able to save some mages is because she was touched by one the most powerful spirits that exist (as per Mr.Gaider, the corruption of Faith is Pride, who are the highest echelons of demonic hierarchy) which is something the Templars couldn't possibly have predicted.

We do know Templars protect mages if they are able. For instance, the tale of Ser Reiner (http://dragonage.wik...of_the_Resolute) [/quote]

Yet they still failed. There is no changing that. They abandoned the mages they were suppose to protect and then locked them in the room with the enemy. Every mage who didn't join the rebellion and resisted the demon is their responsibility and at least in part so is the death of those mages. When called upon to protect the mages as they are suppose to do they ran and even planned to murder them all. Saying, “It's too painful to think that some might be alive.” The knight commander didn't even want to consider the possibility and just abandoned them. As for the shield. Notice it also mentions the other templars abandoning the mages when faced with the demon.

Templars have no issue destroying a mages mind or killing their body whenever the mage “fails” in their eyes either through the use of blood magic, failing the harrowing or not wishing to undergo it.  Why shouldn't the mages be allowed to exact a price on the templars whenever they fail to uphold their end of the deal and protect the mages?

[quote]MisterJB
As for templar accountability, yes, I admit that is cause for concerns but I don't believe it is nonexistent. Only right off the top of my head, I can recall four instances where evidence of templars having to answer for their actions presented itself.
1- Hawke can say "The Chantry frowns of templars who take advantage of their charges.
2- Alan can say that the templars in Kirkwall beat them and that nobody says anything. That implies either Starkhaven templars didn't beat them or that somebody would do something if they did.
3-Ser Karras threatens Alan with Tranquility if he tells anyone he has been to his quarters meaning he is afraid of it being discovered that he is a rapist. Even under Meredith's regime, sexually abusing mages was likely something not tolerated.
4-Meredith can't search the Circle without Elthina's permission.
And that is only off the top of my head. I could probrably find more if I scoured the games and books. [/quote]

If they frown do they do something about it? Do they handle it as severally as they handle a mage who just wanted to go see their parents or child? Would Meredith truly punish Karras appropriately for such a crime? If he's comfortable raping the mage how severe is the punishment truly? Where do you get the idea that Meredith needs Elthina's permission to search the circle? Meredith wasn't going to Elthina for permission. She was trying to keep Elthina out of the loop so that it couldn't be stopped. Meredith didn't need her permission to conduct the search Orsino needed her help to stop it.  

A little side question? How responsible do you hold a leader for their subordinates? As far as I'm concerned a leader is responsible for everyone under them to some degree. So every rape, beating, murder and theft of any type is partly the knight-commanders and even the divine's responsibility. So long as said subordinate is still subordinate. I wouldn't drop what the templars have done after the rebellion at the divine's feet.  

Where you see notes of accountability I see several cases of abuse and the templars failing to protect the mages they've claim to.

[quote]MisterJB
I expect people to do what the non-mages of the time of Andraste did. And we can see the result.
When messing with the social order of a continent, caution is likely warranted. What can this violent rebellion accomplish beyond widening the gap and being yet another battle in the eternal war between mages and non-mages? [/quote]

If the mages win they gain a new chance at freedom and building something better. If the templars win they set the nation up for a fall the next time there is a blight or the Qunari invade. I recall one codex entry noting that the mages were the greatest weapon the chantry had against the Qunari as they were able to answer cannons with fireballs. There is also the simple truth that mages are born unlike a templar who is made. Kill all the mages alive now but more will be born later.
What did the mages have to gain by continuing to suffer in silence? Would you rather die with hope or live in despair?
[quote]MisterJB
Abominations and blood mage appear to be rarer outside of the insane asylum Kirkwall was becoming. Partially because most mages are in the Circle and partially because whatever apostates there are, they need to keep a low profile if they don't want the templars to come knocking.
Which is yet another advantage of having a non-magical police force trained to deal with magical threats and with reasons to keep non-mages safe. Mages like Tahrone who would be ruling over herds of slaves in the Imperium have to keep their heads low in Andrastian lands lest they be cut off. [/quote]

Is there any proof showing that the rate of abomination and blood mage encounters have decreased with the intervention of the chantry? I haven't seen any statistics proving such claims and I don't trust what the chantry says on faith. How do you know the pressure the templars have been putting on the mages hasn't made them more likely to turn to demons?

[quote]MisterJB
Anyone can join the templars. Keran did so to provide for his sister.
Not everyone can be a mage. [/quote]

Anyone can attempt to join the templars. That doesn't mean they'll succeed. Anyone who can attempt to gather the wealth and power to become a noble. That doesn't mean they'll succeed. The fact that anyone can attempt it doesn't change the fact that it's a social class.
[quote]MisterJB
That's true but if you are playing the templar side, Ser Agatha(templar) steps foward to protect the families of apostates from that extremist templar. [/quote]

Does her stepping forward and standing up to her fellow templars change the fact that they're a social class that can make life or death decisions in regards to the lower classes?

[quote]MisterJB
Perhaps. I see it as no different for the legal system of the Western World. Place restriction upon people from birth; not because of what they've done but because of what they might do; so that we can co-exist as a functional society.
Certainly, mages have stricter restrictions than everyone else but only to reflect the heigthened danger they represent. [/quote]
One very key difference is those restrictions are placed on everyone. Just importantly some restrictions can be removed through a licensing system. A quick example. A permit to carry a concealed weapon.

[quote]MisterJB
I've already said I believe equality between mages and non-mages is impossible. If something is impossible, then there is no point in striving towards it.
All we can do is pick a side. I'm with the non-mages.
[/quote]

So it's okay to steal someone from their family, imprison them for life, steal their children, locked them away with a demon and trap them with people conditioned to hate them because of what you believe? I'm glad that you're not writing any laws.

[vpacheco1984]

MisterJB wrote...

TTTX wrote...
She has pretty much destroyed the mage underground, the few that are left (aside from Anders) have turned to bloodmagic in desperation, however nothing suggest they still have ties to the Circle after this has happened.

True but in the preivous quest, Hawke had uncovered a plot by Circle mages (Grace&Co) to depose Meredith through the use of not only blood magic but also demons.
Given this, it doesn't seem that unresonable to search the Circle to see if any conspirators remained. But on the other hand, it is also not unresonable to oppose Meredith being the one who conducts this search because she has an hard time grasping the meaning of the worst restraint. Note that she is not incapable of it given the fact she spares Alan; who was a blood mage; and Emille; who is just patetic.

Also Orsino did offer the surrender of the Circle and let Meredith do as she pleased getting her search among other things in return he asked she reworked RoA and only punish the mages who had committed crimes and not kill all of them (Remember the Circle have children in them too.) 

But why offer than option only after running to the Circle? Why not present it right in Lowtown? Even if Meredith refuses, all he has to do is run to the Circle, which he does one way or the other.
Wif the reason he was willing to allow Meredith to search the Circle only after he had already been in there for a awhile  was because he had taken that time to conceal the presence of blood magic in the Circle.

FOR THE LOVE OF... There were templars in the group too. In fact the entire thing was put together by a templar, Thrask. So get your facts straight. They didn't just rely on blood magic and demons. Alain wasn't a blood mage just becasue he knew what GRACE did doesn't mean anything. 

Do you think it would have been any better in lowtown? No. He was trying to protect as many of his mages as possible. I doubt that he was hiding anything like you seem to think which. He was trying to save as many lives as he cold perhaps he was using that time to get the children out of the Gallows.

[DPSSOC]

vpacheco1984 wrote...
Alain wasn't a blood mage just becasue he knew what GRACE did doesn't mean anything.

He...he does blood magic.  We watch him do blood magic. 

[vpacheco1984]

DPSSOC wrote...

vpacheco1984 wrote...
Alain wasn't a blood mage just becasue he knew what GRACE did doesn't mean anything.

He...he does blood magic.  We watch him do blood magic. 

He is as much a blood mage as Malcolm Hawke is, when he was forced to use it by the Wardens or a non-blood mage Hawke is when they unseal Cyp (however his name is spelled) to defeat him. Just becasue he was forced to us it to wake up Hawke's sibling/lover/friend doesn't make him a blood mage. At least no in my mind.

Modifié par vpacheco1984, 09 juillet 2013 - 12:44 .