1656 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

I might join the argument later on when I'm less tired, but it's a good manifesto all in all, Ieldra.

[duckley]

Wow - very interesting and cogent arguements! It is gratifying to know many of you have studied history and philosophy and the like.

Here is my take...

Mages pose a risk to society. To mitigate the risk, they must be trained in their art. The practice of sending Mages to a Circle and cutting them off from family and friends is NOT a good idea in my opinion. It breeds contempt and encourages exclusion.  If training was local, within  communities (yeah like schools),  and if Mages were given more of an opportunity to actually contribute to community - perhaps we would see a polulace less fearful and more accepting of Mages. We have enough examples of the horrors of istutiutionalization.residental schools and congegrated settings like orphanages to know postive outcomes are rarely achieved.

The Templar order may be well intentioned, but, like many organizations Templars will be as good or as bad as their training, supervision, personal suitability for the task (i.e lets screen out the psychooaths) and leadership. The same could be said for police forces or militaries. Organizations can become stagnant, corrupt, and irrelevant if they are unable to adapt to change and if there is no meaningful oversight.  

I am sure no one here thinks that making a Mage tranquil is a wonderful thing to do - it reminds me of the days in which  mentally ill people were lobotomized. It seemed like the best solution at the time, but society progressed, knowledge gained and soon other, more humane and helpful treatments were discovered.  I am not equating being a Mage with being mentally ill, but merely pointing out that tranquility is hopefully a transitiory solution. Mages and Templars alike ought to be interested in researching how to strengthen Mages from their apparent  vulnerability to possession.  Tranquility, oppression and isolation have not been effective, and indeed these tactics may have served to make some Mages more open to receiving demons.

What makes some Mages seemingly impervious to temptation or possession?   Change the training model for Mages, clean up the Templars, and research options and who knws whatsolutions might arise?:innocent:

Modifié par duckley, 23 juin 2013 - 04:32 .

[Ieldra]

Filament wrote...
Cool conjecture and all, but it's only based on your assumption that people will abuse power simply because they can. Which is only your assumption, and points to a rather dismal and debatable belief about human nature.

Indeed. I think many arguments of the pro-templar side are based on a wrong assumption. Sure, there are always people who abuse their power, but most people are naturally averse to harming others, and need only a small incentive against the occasional temptation.

Having said that, mind control is a problem, but instead of the examples cited by Dave, I can make examples of first escaping the Circle using mind control. It's not significantly harder than the other examples. The Circle system will not prevent the really determined from doing whatever they want, and to imprison the great majority of others to contain the occasional Uldred is like imprisoning a whole religious minority group because one of them might become a suicide bomber and it is unfeasible to try and prevent the making of bombs because they can be made from everyday materials.

As in the manifesto, I maintain that there exist defenses against mental domination. It would be prudent to build on that, and along with every non-mage, every single mage in existence would be interested in such a thing. Only, you'd need to study blood magic for that. I think the Chantry's absolute ban on blood magic (and even non-magical research peripherally connected) has done more damage than good. In order to find a measure of protection, you need to study it. Not that the Chantry is above using it when it suits their purposes - phylacteries are a form of blood magic.

[Ieldra]

duckley wrote...
Mages pose a risk to society. To mitigate the risk, they must be trained in their art. The practice of sending Mages to a Circle and cutting them off from family and friends is NOT a good idea in my opinion. It breeds contempt and encourages exclusion.  If training was local, within  communities (yeah like schools),  and if Mages were given more of an opportunity to actually contribute to community - perhaps we would see a polulace less fearful and more accepting of Mages. We have enough examples of the horrors of istutiutionalization.residental schools and congegrated settings like orphanages to know postive outcomes are rarely achieved.

Indeed. It may be necessary to keep apprentices in the schools 24/7 to prevent accidental damage from loss of control - imagine that scene in the DAO mage origin with the apprentice who sets himself on fire happening without a supervisor - but contact with the non-magical world should be encouraged on all levels. Isolation breeds contempt on one side and suspicion on the other.  

The Templar order may be well intentioned, but, like many organizations Templars will be as good or as bad as their training, supervision, personal suitability for the task (i.e lets screen out the psychooaths) and leadership. The same could be said for police forces or militaries. Organizations can become stagnant, corrupt, and irrelevant if they are unable to adapt to change and if there is no meaningful oversight.

Again, agreed. I don't have anything against the templars as a "police task force for magical crimes", except that such an organization would benefit greatly in its efficiency if it hired the occasional mage, and it should not be based on a religious ideology which is likely to presume a mage guilty unless proven otherwise. . 

[Fredward]

I knew I liked you when I saw that synthesis thread Ieldra. I'd share my opinion but it's basically point by point the same as yours and you say it better.

[Kerethos]

Before I make my argument, l I'd really like to commend the creators at Bioware for creating such an interesting world and conflics within it. Conflicts that really makes one think and question what is really right and wrong in such a setting. Now, on to the debate:

The main problems seem to be the way mages are treated from birth. They are told from day one that they are a danger to everyone around them, potential vessels for destruction and suffering, that they might turn into a monster at any time. And because of this they have to be locked a way and tracked so that they can never escape their (for the most part) gilded cage. That they should not love and that having children is a sin for one such as you. And should you still fall in love or have children, you will be harsly punished for it or have your newborn child taken from you. A trauma no parent should ever suffer.

Now if you'd be treated like that all your life, I think you'd probably end up - this depending on your own self image - either fearful of yourself, apathic, or (and this appears to be the opinion of the majority of mages) tired of always being accused of being a disaster just waiting to happen and just wanting a "normal" life. They've had enough of being the monster in everyone's eyes and have decided that enough is enough - they're people just like the rest and want to be treated like that. Yes, they have the potential to be far more dangerous than the average person. But that does not make a mage less of a person.

And as for the whole demonic possession, yes, as mages walk aware in the Fade - unlike other dreamers - they draw the attention of demons and spirits and they can actively engage them. But, what we've also seen is that when the possessing starts it seems to spread to non mages like STD's at an orgy, presumably since a demon on Thedas becomes aware of non mages as well and thus can aid his peers in possessing them. But a mage is, as far as we've seen, often the point of origin for demonic possession. The exception being in areas where the Veil is thin - which also seem to be where vast majority of the possessing happens. In these areas everything becomes a potential target for possession - and ironically these areas often house mages, since repeated use of magic thins the veil. However, the main cause for a weakened Veil seems to be the death of many; meaning that the undead, possessed animals, flora and non mages show up frequently in places where many have died, such as places for great battles or massmurders.

Either way, denying the danger of possession that a mage faces is foolish. But punishing all mages by treating them as criminals - when the vast majority will never deal with demons, and in fact, unlike non mages are often trained to resist possession - has only served to breed contempt, among templars and mages alike. Making each commit ever greater crimes against the other.

The mages and templar order have been at odds since before their modern conception, back at a time when the freedom of mages and their placement in society above non mages lead them to case great harm upon the world of Thedas. A past that can't be allowed to repeat itself.

So what do I think is needed? A more humane treatment of mages, while still acknowledging that not all mages are capable of fending of demonic temptations and that some will - like any non mage with power - chose to abuse their power.
I don't believe that mages should be free of oversight, nor do I believe that mages should all be treated as criminals and put through a trial by fire when some authority decides it's time (but rather when they are deemed ready). I don't believe mages should have their connection to the Fade removed because they might pose a danger. In fact, I find the right of Tranquility to be the most harsh and horrible punishment possible to a mage, and one that should be reserved for the worst of them - not the ones that might become a danger to others.

I believe that a new order must be established, and by that I mean a new way of dealing with mages and magic - not an order in the literal sense. Mages need more freedom, they can't be put in gilded cages away from those they might harm. They need to be allowed to be a part of society. But neither can they be left without supervision, and the templars will and should always be the defenders against evil magic and demons.

What is needed is to have mages properly educated, while still policed by the templars. But this can be achieved without locking the mages away from the rest of society, there does not even have to be formal schools for it - as the Champion of Kirkwall and Bethany Hawke prove (though training with their peers and growing up with people like them is likely a great benefit for many young mages).

Tearing young mages away from their families is not the answer, treating mages like disasters waiting to happen is not the answer. Mages need to be treated like people, magic is a gift and a threat. A gift that with the proper training and moral guidance can be to great benefit for Thedas as a whole - just as it can be a danger. The templar order should consider accepting mages into their order - and conduct carefully controlled research into how to best protect the people of Thedas, mage and non mage alike, from the dangers of magic, demonic possession and means of restoring the Veil.

Fighting one another will only serve to weaken the Veil, bring forth more malicious spirits from the Fade and in the end threaten all of Thedas. Together, united, and with a more open policy towards mages and magic, the threat that rogue magic pose to Thedas can be contained, policed and effectively combated. It's not an easy road, but it's the road that I think would best serve all the peoples of Thedas, mage and non mage alike.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Kerethos_ wrote...

The main problems seem to be the way mages are treated from birth. They are told from day one that they are a danger to everyone around them, potential vessels for destruction and suffering, that they might turn into a monster at any time. And because of this they have to be locked a way and tracked so that they can never escape their (for the most part) gilded cage. That they should not love and that having children is a sin for one such as you. And should you still fall in love or have children, you will be harsly punished for it or have your newborn child taken from you. A trauma no parent should ever suffer.

Everything underlined is incorrect.
Mages that have proven themselves are allowed to go outside - in special cases they may be even greanted the right of a permanent outside residence.
They aren't harshly punished for loving or haivng children.

Their children are taking from them because it's for the best, sicne demons love to use that connection.


And the italic is 100% correct.

[Lotion Soronarr]

IceHawk-181 wrote...
Yes, the concept that rights are inherent in the individual is, for most, a belief.
 
Thomas Hobbes produced a rather convincing argument that they are, literally and logically, a function of Free Will and can only be circumscribed by force (being personal choice or external pressure) which serves to invalidate the "it's just a belief" piece.

Convincing argument? Sez who?
 

Then again it is a philosophy that literally gave birth to the modern age and is directly responsible the existence of what we still term, the Free World, and the entire context of your life.

And this is relevant to anything how exactly?

And there is a fundamental difference between having an inherent right and someone refusing to accept that; this is another thing Hobbes made a direct point of.

And the same difference between NOT having any rights and refusing to accept that.

Beliving that we have inherent right is a nice, comforting belief. But it can be no more proven than the existence of God.


 

Also, on the point of Due Process.
You just claimed Due Process existed and then replied, line by line, that it does not exist.
 
And appealing to the individual who just condemned you is not Due Process.
 
Do you think Jowan asking nicely for understanding would have stopped his Tranquility?
 
No, Thedas does not function as a modern free society.
It is an authoritarian regime in which individuals are ground underfoot without legal recourse because of how they were born.

Legal recourse is irrelevant, when your guilt is 100% certain.
No amounts of apeal will help you.

[Lotion Soronarr]

IceHawk-181 wrote...

1) Again, can someone explain to me why Magic forces Mages to chose to deal with Demons and go on killing sprees? Because, and while I might be mistaken, abominations are a rare occurrence and usually a function of desperation, not malice.
 
2) The "All Power Corrupts" trope is cute, but really non-sensical.

My favorite response, "80-Million American gun owners did not murder someone today..."
 
Obama has not nuked any nations today and I have managed not to beat my wife.

So is today just a lucky day? Or perhaps is there more to "corruption" than the simple exercise of authority?
 

It depends. Not all pwoer is inherently equally tempintg. Not all is equally abusable. The more abusable it is, the more tempting it is.

Obama hasn't nuked any natiosn because he knows it's suicide. He knows he can't get away with it. That, and he doesn't exercise that power directly. There's a whole set of checks and balances and other people involed that prevent him from doing just that. It's not he that presses the bottun.

In comparison to mind control (and magic in general), which is focused in a single person (no check and balances), almost impossible to detect (thus highly abusable and easy to get away with) and has infinite posibilities for abuse.

Mind control is something you have a chance of using almost constantlynad everywhere, without enyone noticing.
From getting back to that jerk that short-chenged you to getting that sweet girl next door to like you.

[Lotion Soronarr]

EChatty wrote...

Sure, he would have let him, but no, he couldn't have. If questioned about it, Irving states unequivocally that if things would have been different.....but he had no choice Jowan was going to be made Tranquil, he just wants Lily to be punished for her part in it too. ****** for tat? Yes. Deserved? I think so too.

The reason being that the decision had already been made by Greagoir to tranquil Jowan, so he had no recourse.

Wut?
It's the First Enchanter who evaluates mages for the Harrowing. Not the Knight-Commander.

If Jowan was going to be made tranquil under Gregoirs orders, then it was because he was a blood mage, not because he was "weak". It is Irwing who decides who is weak.

[Kerethos]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Mages that have proven themselves are allowed to go outside - in special cases they may be even greanted the right of a permanent outside residence.

It is my understanding that a mage can only leave the Circle should he or she come into service to another keeper, be it a King, the Grey Wardens or due to the needs of the Templar order. I have never seen or heard of any other arrangement.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
They aren't harshly punished for loving or haivng children.

The Dragon Age Comic suggests otherwise. And how is having your child taken from you after birth not harsh? It's among the worst thing that can happen to a parent.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Their children are taking from them because it's for the best, sicne demons love to use that connection.

Yet so very few apostates, raised away from the Circle ever become possessed, instead it's the traumatized mages of the Circle that keeps turning into abominations. While the hedge mages out in the woods, without formal training, appear to barley ever turn into abominations. And the Dalish don't seem to have that problem, do they?

[Ieldra]

Kerethos_ wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Mages that have proven themselves are allowed to go outside - in special cases they may be even greanted the right of a permanent outside residence.

It is my understanding that a mage can only leave the Circle should he or she come into service to another keeper, be it a King, the Grey Wardens or due to the needs of the Templar order. I have never seen or heard of any other arrangement.

Indeed, and even then they must be accompanied by a templar (see "Asunder" as an example). The rule appears to be that a mage must always be watched. Only by becoming Grey Wardens can they escape that rule, and even that is looked on with suspicion by the templars, to the point that they sometimes outright ignore GW privileges (see Awakening).

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
They aren't harshly punished for loving or haivng children.

The Dragon Age Comic suggests otherwise. And how is having your child taken from you after birth not harsh? It's among the worst thing that can happen to a parent.

There is a second piece of evidence in DA2 in the quest "On the Loose". One of the escaped mages wanted nothing more than the opportunity to be with a girl. 

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Their children are taking from them because it's for the best, sicne demons love to use that connection.

Yet so very few apostates, raised away from the Circle ever become possessed, instead it's the traumatized mages of the Circle that keeps turning into abominations. While the hedge mages out in the woods, without formal training, appear to barley ever turn into abominations. And the Dalish don't seem to have that problem, do they?

Indeed. Treat someone like a potential monster all the time and they're more likely to become one. And it's even worse if you're not an Andrastean. Then  you're always surrounded by ideological enemies who wield authority over you and check your "moral fortitude" using their own doctrine as a measure.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Kerethos_ wrote...

It is my understanding that a mage can only leave the Circle should he or she come into service to another keeper, be it a King, the Grey Wardens or due to the needs of the Templar order. I have never seen or heard of any other arrangement.

As a reward for good behavior and service.

The Dragon Age Comic suggests otherwise. And how is having your child taken from you after birth not harsh? It's among the worst thing that can happen to a parent.

1) The dragon age comic is garbage
2) Prove that it's an actual institutional crime and not the action of a bad templar

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Yet so very few apostates, raised away from the Circle ever become possessed, instead it's the traumatized mages of the Circle that keeps turning into abominations. While the hedge mages out in the woods, without formal training, appear to barley ever turn into abominations. And the Dalish don't seem to have that problem, do they?

Really? Where did you get that info? I'm curious as to your sources for numbers.

Because we've seen so far 2 dalish clans, and BOTH have been led to ruin by their Keepers. We also know that entire clans end up destroyed by abominations.

[Xilizhra]

1) The dragon age comic is garbage
2) Prove that it's an actual institutional crime and not the action of a bad templar

They still have their children stolen.

Really? Where did you get that info? I'm curious as to your sources for numbers.

Because we've seen so far 2 dalish clans, and BOTH have been led to ruin by their Keepers. We also know that entire clans end up destroyed by abominations.

We don't know the second one, and of the Dalish clans... Zathrian was hardly possessed, nor did he lead his clan to ruin. Marethari was in a rather special circumstance that involved actually sitting on a demon for seven years; not a typical situation.

[Plaintiff]

IceHawk-181 wrote...
I have managed not to beat my wife.

Congratulations!

Your cookie is in the mail.

[Epic777]

I hope DA I doesn't become black and white with one side (mage or templars) becoming too sympathetic, it would undermine the greyness

[Sir JK]

First of all, I wish to extent to Ieldra (and Xil) a sincere Bravo for a wonderfully written post/text. It's precisely the sort of thing I imagine a well educated mage could write to garner support for their cause (or at the very least convince themselves of the justice in their cause). It's well written, well founded and focuses on some of the better arguments against the circles.

I'm not exactly sure why the quote from Excalibur is headlining it, seeing it's an in-character document. It's nice and all, but it stands out a bit since it's not part of the world.
I'm also not sure whether the depiction of the litany of Adralla is correct. It does seem to be more of an object than a knowledge based on presentation ingame and in the book Asunder, and there's some indication to it being a unique one. Then again, it is named a litany, which is a type of prayer.

It also lacks any notion of a solution to the problem, but then again if it's just a call to fight then it may not need any.

All in all, Great text. I like it a lot.
So it's unclear.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Xilizhra wrote...
They still have their children stolen.

Taken. Legally.

Really? Where did you get that info? I'm curious as to your sources for numbers.

Because we've seen so far 2 dalish clans, and BOTH have been led to ruin by their Keepers. We also know that entire clans end up destroyed by abominations.

We don't know the second one, and of the Dalish clans... Zathrian was hardly possessed, nor did he lead his clan to ruin. Marethari was in a rather special circumstance that involved actually sitting on a demon for seven years; not a typical situation.

I said destroyed by mages. It doesn't mater if Zathrien was possesed.

He was a mage and without the Warden his curse destoryed his clan in the end.
Methanari becoming an abomination ruins her.
Keepers do occasionaly become abominations and threaten the entire clan. Dalish clans do dissapear.

[Xilizhra]

Taken. Legally.

Not morally, however.

He was a mage and without the Warden his curse destoryed his clan in the end.
Methanari becoming an abomination ruins her.
Keepers do occasionaly become abominations and threaten the entire clan. Dalish clans do dissapear.

The curse would have nicked his clan, but without finding help, he'd have moved on before it killed too many people. And yes, Dalish clans sometimes disappear, just like whole Circles are sometimes slaughtered, though probably less frequently (I've certainly never heard of abominations destroying Dalish clans, only the clans killing abominations).

[EmperorSahlertz]

Is it morally correct to leave a child in the care of its parents, if you know you are putting the child at risk? That is certainly debatable..

[Xilizhra]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Is it morally correct to leave a child in the care of its parents, if you know you are putting the child at risk? That is certainly debatable..

Given that the templars throw children into the mouths of demons, I don't really think it's much of a step up.

[KainD]

Huyna wrote...
Rights of the minority are important, but they cannot and should not overrule the rights of majority. Majority  builds towns, majority  works at farms, and majority supports civilization.  

Needs of many outweigh needs of few.

It should be withing the interests of the majoririty for the right of the minority to be fulfilled.

Huyna wrote...
Mages are dangerous. It’s not their fault, they were born that way, but it changes nothing. And not only because they are a constant beacon for demons, but because their power can lead to arrogance, to a firm belief in their own superiority.  In a blink of an eye a magocratic society may appear, with mages as a ruling class. An “oppressed” now will become rulers and harsh their rule will be.

One may say – “It will only may happen because mages are not truly free. We are not banning swords because swords can be used as a weapon! Mages are not tools, but intelligent beings with rights, hopes and dreams”.  It’s all true. However, until a proper “cure” will be developed that will provide a full-proof guarantee against demonic possession; mages must be kept in check.  We have to remember – Fade is full of many creatures, and many of them hate humans. They feel bitter and jealous, for humans are Maker’s favorite, though they were Makers first. And some of these creatures are old. Old, very old. And highly intelligent and patient.  Forget rage demons – even if they can they can wipe out a village. Forget passion demons – even if their games can turn hundreds insane. Fear, among other things, a pride demon of the higher order, which will take mage of a great power, and almost impossible to detect. Such creature will wait; such creature will be extremely careful and will play the mage as a puppet until time to strike is right. And then entire kingdoms will bleed. A grey cardinal beyond the thrones. What great grief can be unleashed then?

Anything that CAN happen is irrevlevant. Everything that CAN happen is to be dealt with when it actually happens.

Huyna wrote...
But what would you say, if your child or a loved one is a slave to cold immortal creature, that will use it as tool for great pain and suffering.

I would say that it is very unfortunate. But things happen. My loved one can also be killed or hurt by any random person that is not a mage, and for me there is no difference HOW my loved one was hurt.

Huyna wrote...
Circles are needed. Templars are needed. Or world, as we know it, will turn into ash.

Ashes sounds better than Circles and Templars. 

[Lotion Soronarr]

Xilizhra wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Is it morally correct to leave a child in the care of its parents, if you know you are putting the child at risk? That is certainly debatable..

Given that the templars throw children into the mouths of demons, I don't really think it's much of a step up.

Eh?
Wutyoutalkingabout?

[EmperorSahlertz]

Xilizhra wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Is it morally correct to leave a child in the care of its parents, if you know you are putting the child at risk? That is certainly debatable..

Given that the templars throw children into the mouths of demons, I don't really think it's much of a step up.

Huh?... I don't even.... What?

[Lotion Soronarr]

KainD wrote...
It should be withing the interests of the majoririty for the right of the minority to be fulfilled.

There is no "should".

Anything that CAN happen is irrevlevant. Everything that CAN happen is to be dealt with when it actually happens.

By then it's too late.
I wonder...how dangerous should mages be before youd acknowledge it?

Le'ts say that single powerfull mage under right conditions can literally destroy the world. Would it be wrong to lock up all mages then?

Huyna wrote...
 and for me there is no difference HOW my loved one was hurt.

I seriously doubt that.

Huyna wrote...
Circles are needed. Templars are needed. Or world, as we know it, will turn into ash.

Ashes sounds better than Circles and Templars.

Then set yourself on fire if you're that keen on it.