1656 réponses à ce sujet

[Lotion Soronarr]

DKJaigen wrote...
and now they will get slaughterd by demons and dragons. the chantry created this weakness and this is the outcome. you are living in a world where humans are not on top of the food chain and yet you want to remain weak and feeble?

Last time I checked, humans are at the top of the foodchain in TheDas. They rule the entire continent.

You talk of individual power. Cute. But there's other kinds of power. And numbers have a power of their own.

[Fredward]

^ Lotion you're arguing mage imprisonment from a purely pragmatic POV right? Not a moral one?

[Lotion Soronarr]

DKJaigen wrote...

Yes they do, we have at least one account of Templars being sent to deal with demons.  What do you expect them to do enter the Fade and wipe them all out?

More or less. over the 1000 years the chantry has made no real effort to prevent demons from crossing over. The chantry only cures the symptons but never the disease it seems.

Curious. How would you stop demons from crossing over? I can think of one way - kill all mages.

The Chantry does indeed fight demons. Why do the you think Circles exist in the first place? When a demon does cross over, it finds itself in a sealed room full of templars instead of in a village or city.

An abomination will attempt to bring in others and tear the veil. Hence why such containment actually DOES prevent more demons from crossing over.

Nope they did not hunt them to extinction. that is your flaw. mundanes in thedas have an annoying tendency to not investigate a danger to its fullest. they all have been told about the old gods and the power of the dragons of old yet did not bother to do their research. they know that dragons can influence humans but dont even know how. and they did not know that the bulk of the dragons where just taking a nap.

Weren't they being revived or something?
Either way, mundanes have been killing dragons quite effectively.

[Ieldra]

Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
For much of human history, the stratification of society served as a justification to disenfranchise certain groups, while the disposition to distinguish between "us" and "them" supported social stratification in turn. Modern universalist ethics recognize that "us" vs. "them" distinctions do not hold true as a rule, as in everything that counts for basic morality, members of one group of humans are indeed pretty much the same as those of others. If you recognize that mages have, as a rule, the same desires and fears as other humans, there goes any justification to treat them as undeserving of basic considerations which apply to others as a matter of common consensus.

Except that past stratification was usually based on utterly meaningless criteria such as "their skin is darker than mine" and "they speak a different language."  There is no practical difference between the abilities or dangers posed by different ethnicities or linguistic groups of humans.  Mages actually *do* exhibit a pronounced difference in ability and potential danger than other humans.

I believe I have acknowledged that further down. The point I wanted to make here is that the default state from which all debate must flow is that with regard to moral dispositions, mages are like other humans and should, where at all possible, treated like others. More justification is needed than "they aren't like other people" to place additional restrictions on them. The Chantry ideology based on the story of the Golden City tends to mask this by making mages appear more predisposed towards evil.

If you cannot show that mages have a greater innate disposition towards evil than non-mages, you are not justified in making distinctions, and in that context it is important to recognize that power is not evil, and any innate disposition towards greater personal power, which mages do have, is balanced in that it can be used for good or for evil in equal measure, and also doesn't justify making distinctions.   

Mages potential tendency to evil is only part of the problem.  Mages can fall victim to demons simply by being in emotional distress, whether they want to or not.  The issue is not that mage's are more likely to become evil.  The issue is that we have no evidence that mages have better control of their emotions than an average human and yet the potential consequences of them losing control is far greater than with an average human.

Not the point I wanted to make, but true. Which is why mages must undergo specific training in order to prevent emotional distress from causing disasters, a training not required from anyone else, during which it might be necessary to prevent them from leaving shielded premises. However, after a mage has passed their Harrowing things should change. WoT says that mages past their Harrowing are considered safe - which makes what happened in Ferelden's Circle and even more in Kirkwall into truly extraordinary events.

(BTW, I think this will become partly irrelevent as DAI will reveal things about the Fade and its spirits which will make this discussion go off in unexpected directions, as hinted by "Asunder". Which is why I didn't include recommendations for specific measures in the OP)

Thus, the perceived problem of how mages and non-mages can live together is reduced to a pragmatic consideration. Pragmatic considerations can place additional restrictions for the sake of the greater good, but the "least harm" principle applies. Any measure loses its justification if it can be reasonably argued that it goes too far, and there is enough evidence towards that in the Circle system that it justifies a very thorough overhaul of the system at least.

I don't disagree with this, which is why I said that expanding certain civil rights to mages would probably improve both society and the lives of individual mages.  I just wanted to emphasize that under a purely natural rights approach these "additional restrictions for the greater good" are frequently dismissed as unethical and unfair because they violate a mage's "inherent" right to be treated exactly the same as everybody else.

I'm against moral absolutism. Recognizing certain rights is important but principles shouldn't be adhered to at any cost. Also, individual autonomy is not sacrosanct, not even in modern western ethics. However, permanent internment is a very drastic measure, something that should only be justified on an individual level after due precedent, and re-evaluated regularly with the explicit goal of making it unnecessary. Driven by the Chantry's ideology, the existing system does the exact opposite.

 

[DKJaigen]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...
and now they will get slaughterd by demons and dragons. the chantry created this weakness and this is the outcome. you are living in a world where humans are not on top of the food chain and yet you want to remain weak and feeble?

Last time I checked, humans are at the top of the foodchain in TheDas. They rule the entire continent.

You talk of individual power. Cute. But there's other kinds of power. And numbers have a power of their own.

The aztecs ruled south america for hundreds of years. in took a group of spainards a few months to destroy their entire culture. Is thedas prepared to face a demonic invasion and swarms of dragons ? the answer is no. your argument about numbers is something that remains to be seen. Nations on thedas simply dont come to eachs other aid easily. and do not forget where their are dragons their are dragon cultist. you may find out  that their are people who want to become reavers or spirit warriors and take up arms against the chantry and the templars.

[EmperorSahlertz]

DKJaigen wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...

Nobody helps the Grey Wardens or the Dwarves except during Blights, the Grey Wardens don't even make a concentrated effort to help the Dwarves except during Blights.

So chantry simply ignores the problem? yet they have the influence and wealth to greatly aid the grey wardens.

Again, the Chantry doesn't ignore the problem, but it is not their job to take care of the Darkspawn. That job is the Grey Wardens'.

DKJaigen wrote...

Yes they do, we have at least one account of Templars being sent to deal with demons.  What do you expect them to do enter the Fade and wipe them all out?

More or less. over the 1000 years the chantry has made no real effort to prevent demons from crossing over. The chantry only cures the symptons but never the disease it seems. 

The only "cure" to this "disease" would be to kill all mages and stop all warfare and bloodletting for all of time. Which of course is unfeasible and a moronic demand to make to the Chantry.
Furthermore demons are a natural part of Thedas, and you can no more fight and destroy them, as you can fight and destroy the tides.

DKJaigen wrote...

Dragons have been around for about 30 years, prior to that they were believed to be extinct for over 200 years, why?  Because mundanes hunted them to near extinction.

Nope they did not hunt them to extinction. that is your flaw. mundanes in thedas have an annoying tendency to not investigate a danger to its fullest. they all have been told about the old gods and the power of the dragons of old yet did not bother to do their research. they know that dragons can influence humans but dont even know how. and they did not know that the bulk of the dragons where just taking a nap.

The bulk of the Dragons were dead as dead can be. There were a few Dragons who hid in remote and obscure places, and from these few, the Dragons were apparently revitalized by the Witches of the Wild.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

DKJaigen wrote...

Yes they do, we have at least one account of Templars being sent to deal with demons.  What do you expect them to do enter the Fade and wipe them all out?

More or less. over the 1000 years the chantry has made no real effort to prevent demons from crossing over. The chantry only cures the symptons but never the disease it seems.

The fade is so everchanging that it cannot even be mapped much less conquered. The fade is shaped by the emotions of mortals, it's always going to be there. It's like blaming the Chantry for doing nothing to prevent another Qunari War beacuse they haven't been venturing forth and exterminating all life outside of Thedas so no foreign power could ever attack it again.

Nope they did not hunt them to extinction. that is your flaw. mundanes in thedas have an annoying tendency to not investigate a danger to its fullest. they all have been told about the old gods and the power of the dragons of old yet did not bother to do their research. they know that dragons can influence humans but dont even know how. and they did not know that the bulk of the dragons where just taking a nap.

And are you seriously saying mages are known for never ever doing this?

It's just joining with a spirit of Justice, what could go wrong?
It's just seeking out demons to fix a magical artifact I know almost nothing about, why wouldn't I do it?
It's just summoning a horde of demons to break King Arland's seige, why shouldn't I?
It's just staging a coup against Irving with demons and blood magic, how could it go awry?
It's just teaching a an Arl's son how to do magic without complete training, what could happen?
It's just entering the Golden City in the centre of the fade, what could happen?

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 10 juillet 2013 - 07:46 .

[Ieldra]

I blame the Chantry for not having done anything to improve things for the mages, for preventing the necessary research into the nature of spirits and people's interaction with them. It appears to me that they came to like the power they had over the mages a little too much and didn't want to do anything that could justify loosening their hold. That's not really surprising, but that mages take their fate into their own hands and are slow to trust should not come as a surprise either.

Things might have been set up to change somewhat under Divine Justinia, but in the end it's been too little, too late. The Chantry's hold over the mages will be over, and any future cooperation for the sake of preservation of civilization will have the mages as allies, not subordinates.

[DKJaigen]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...


Again, the Chantry doesn't ignore the problem, but it is not their job to take care of the Darkspawn. That job is the Grey Wardens'.

Mate any person with goddamn sense would put a danger that can wipe out your entire race  as a top priority. and the grey wardens and dwarves are a bit bitter as seen in many conversations about the support they are getting.

The only "cure" to this "disease" would be to kill all mages and stop all warfare and bloodletting for all of time. Which of course is unfeasible and a moronic demand to make to the Chantry.
Furthermore demons are a natural part of Thedas, and you can no more fight and destroy them, as you can fight and destroy the tides.

not unsuprising to see that a templar supporter that sees mass slaughter as a cure. The fact is however that at one point their was no veil and thedas and the fade where linked. what we may have seen in the trailer could simply be a natural magical event.

The bulk of the Dragons were dead as dead can be. There were a few Dragons who hid in remote and obscure places, and from these few, the Dragons were apparently revitalized by the Witches of the Wild.

doesnt explain their numbers

Modifié par DKJaigen, 10 juillet 2013 - 08:40 .

[DKJaigen]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...



The fade is so everchanging that it cannot even be mapped much less conquered. The fade is shaped by the emotions of mortals, it's always going to be there. It's like blaming the Chantry for doing nothing to prevent another Qunari War beacuse they haven't been venturing forth and exterminating all life outside of Thedas so no foreign power could ever attack it again.

then find another way to demon proof mages and mundanes

And are you seriously saying mages are known for never ever doing this?

It's just joining with a spirit of Justice, what could go wrong?
It's just seeking out demons to fix a magical artifact I know almost nothing about, why wouldn't I do it?
It's just summoning a horde of demons to break King Arland's seige, why shouldn't I?
It's just staging a coup against Irving with demons and blood magic, how could it go awry?
It's just teaching a an Arl's son how to do magic without complete training, what could happen?
It's just entering the Golden City in the centre of the fade, what could happen?

They greatly expanded the knowledge of magic and are to be commended. yeah lot of people died but will also die because of technological advancement. learn from their mistakes and move on. its way better then the , ignore and hope the problem goes away policy the chantry maintains.

[MWImexico]

DKJaigen wrote...

And are you seriously saying mages are known for never ever doing this?

It's just joining with a spirit of Justice, what could go wrong?
It's just seeking out demons to fix a magical artifact I know almost nothing about, why wouldn't I do it?
It's just summoning a horde of demons to break King Arland's seige, why shouldn't I?
It's just staging a coup against Irving with demons and blood magic, how could it go awry?
It's just teaching a an Arl's son how to do magic without complete training, what could happen?
It's just entering the Golden City in the centre of the fade, what could happen?

They greatly expanded the knowledge of magic and are to be commended. yeah lot of people died but will also die because of technological advancement. learn from their mistakes and move on. its way better then the , ignore and hope the problem goes away policy the chantry maintains.

Seriously? They acted recklessly and have not expanded any knowledge, they are certainly not to be commended on that matter. I'm favorable to magical research but only if it's done with caution, not like that.

Modifié par MWImexico, 10 juillet 2013 - 10:26 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

DKJaigen wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...


Again, the Chantry doesn't ignore the problem, but it is not their job to take care of the Darkspawn. That job is the Grey Wardens'.

Mate any person with goddamn sense would put a danger that can wipe out your entire race  as a top priority. and the grey wardens and dwarves are a bit bitter as seen in many conversations about the support they are getting. 

Nuclear weapons threaten the existance of our world. I don't see people out rioting in the streets to make the Nuclear nations dismantle the weapons. Mostly because they are also the only thing keeping the balance of power set. Also what would be the point? Things aren't going to change, and there are already several organizations handling the situation right now, and they are doing a far better job, than waht any of us could do.

The same goes for Darkspawn. Since it isn't even common knowledge how Darkspawn procreate, and the secret of how is being kept by the Dwarves and Grey Wardens, I don't see how the CHantry can do more than they are doing. Particularly since they would need Grey Warden assistance anyway, if they wished to research the amtter, and the Grey Wardens don't want their secrets out. And again, the Grey Wardens are far better suited to handling the Darkspawn, and if need be, the Chantry will assist the Grey Wardens, as it has always been.

DKJaigen wrote...

The only "cure" to this "disease" would be to kill all mages and stop all warfare and bloodletting for all of time. Which of course is unfeasible and a moronic demand to make to the Chantry.
Furthermore demons are a natural part of Thedas, and you can no more fight and destroy them, as you can fight and destroy the tides.

not unsuprising to see that a templar supporter that sees mass slaughter as a cure. The fact is however that at one point their was no veil and thedas and the fade where linked. what we may have seen in the trailer could simply be a natural magical event. 

Nice to see your reading comprehension havn't improved......
Now, in the attempt to spell it out for you: I said taht the only "cure" to your "disease" would be to kill all mages, or cut them off from their magic, i.e. making them tranquil. That is of course highly inhumane and the Chantry have no interrest in such a "solution". And even if they eliminated all mages, one way or the other, extensive bloodshedding can still tear the veil, and demons would be able to cross. There simply is no feasible way, to prevent demons from ever crossing, so your demands that the Chantry should fix all the worlds problem are quite simply moronic, and have no place in a discussion about finding actual solutions.

And it might be a natural occuring event, or it might not. Until we got additional data on the subject, and speculation on the matter is entirely useless.

DKJaigen wrote...

The bulk of the Dragons were dead as dead can be. There were a few Dragons who hid in remote and obscure places, and from these few, the Dragons were apparently revitalized by the Witches of the Wild.

doesnt explain their numbers

Their extremely low and insignificant current numbers? Yes. Yes it does. Currently there are a very few numbers of dragons on Thedas. Perhaps with the veil tear, more will come, but that is uncertain for now. But as it is, they are almost extinct.

[DPSSOC]

DKJaigen wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...
Dragons have been around for about 30 years, prior to that they were believed to be extinct for over 200 years, why?  Because mundanes hunted them to near extinction.

Nope they did not hunt them to extinction. that is your flaw. mundanes in thedas have an annoying tendency to not investigate a danger to its fullest. they all have been told about the old gods and the power of the dragons of old yet did not bother to do their research. they know that dragons can influence humans but dont even know how. and they did not know that the bulk of the dragons where just taking a nap.

I said near extinction, they obviously didn't get all of them, but let's consider something.  They knew their habitat well enough to take steps to discourage them from living close buy.  They knew enough about their breeding and societal makeup to classify each stage and grouping.  They knew their capabilities and habits well enough to hunt them to the point they couldn't find any more.  Yes they clearly had no insight into these threats at all.  You're blaming them for not studying the effect dragons have on people, keeping in mind they would need to cage and observe the effect a dragon has on actual people to do that.  Why not give them crap for not developing nuclear power or automatic rifles.

Ieldra2 wrote...
The Chantry's hold over the mages will be over, and any future cooperation for the sake of preservation of civilization will have the mages as allies, not subordinates.

No it won't.  Mages won't accept non-mages as their equals because they're not, this is demonstrated in every society that allows them free reign.  The mundanes who followed Andraste understood this, as do the modern Andrastian nations, and refused to accept it unlike the Dalish, Chasind, etc.

Now you can argue that this system is better and less disposed to abuse, but you can't claim that mages and non-mages can meet on equal footing when you have nothing to back that up.

DKJaigen wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...
The fade is so everchanging that it cannot even be mapped much less conquered. The fade is shaped by the emotions of mortals, it's always going to be there. It's like blaming the Chantry for doing nothing to prevent another Qunari War beacuse they haven't been venturing forth and exterminating all life outside of Thedas so no foreign power could ever attack it again.

then find another way to demon proof mages and mundanes

They did, it's called Tranquility.

DKJaigen wrote...

And are you seriously saying mages are known for never ever doing this?

It's just joining with a spirit of Justice, what could go wrong?
It's just seeking out demons to fix a magical artifact I know almost nothing about, why wouldn't I do it?
It's just summoning a horde of demons to break King Arland's seige, why shouldn't I?
It's just staging a coup against Irving with demons and blood magic, how could it go awry?
It's just teaching a an Arl's son how to do magic without complete training, what could happen?
It's just entering the Golden City in the centre of the fade, what could happen?

They greatly expanded the knowledge of magic and are to be commended. yeah lot of people died but will also die because of technological advancement. learn from their mistakes and move on. its way better then the , ignore and hope the problem goes away policy the chantry maintains.

No you see in order for knowledge to be expanded there either have to be writings left behind or, ideally, survivors.  With the exception of Avernus who had the good sense to write a book, nothing has been gained from these instances.  Either no new knowledge was gained (Anders, Jowan) or the knowledge was lost because it wasn't recorded and nobody survived to learn from it.

[vpacheco1984]

It always amazes me how so many pro-templars think genocide and magical lobotomies is the answer.

Of course people used to think the only cure for homosexuality, schizophrenia and a whole host of other "problems" was to lobotomizes the people. Even though homosexuality is not a disease and most other mental problems are handled by medication. Since people with schizophrenia can be very dangerous if they are off their meds and people used to think, and unfortunately some still do, that homosexuals were sexual deviants and would attack straight people and children if given half a chance. Even people, like me, who are b-polar can be considered dangerous.

This has a point instead of trying to figure out a away for both sides to co-exsites, which is possible, like most pro-mages except for a few, while pro-templars want most mages locked up and treated worse than animals well the ones who are just put down in the street and burned so their bodies so their rotting bodies don't spread diesases.

Modifié par vpacheco1984, 11 juillet 2013 - 02:36 .

[Medhia Nox]

@vpacheco1984: My problem is that you leave no room for anyone BUT your two factions.

Pro-Mages and Pro-Templars will NEVER figure out the solution to the problem.

Pro-Mages ignore the established game lore for the theory that mages will simply survive through support groups of good vibes and high fives.

Pro-Templars simply want to "solve" the problem in the most brutal ways possible.

But what "amazes" me - is that both factions are too fanatical to recognize that there's a third group that doesn't support either of these two psycho factions.

Pro-Mages say: If you don't completely support everything I want.. you're EVIL AND AGAINST ME AND A HORRIBLE TYRANT! Oh yeah.. and it's totally okay if I use self-mutilation and demon summoning against you.

Pro-Templars: Again - more dismissal. Fine - stay out of the way, I'm killing those mages - they'll just make another Tevinter! Bad bad bad!

I have to remind myself that people on the BSN are "thankfully" not designing the game. I hope the type of environment Bioware has helped to create on the boards is not "all" that exists in the game.

I truly hope I can stop the fanatics (through violence if necessary - through RP would be ideal) on both sides - even if it means destroying both sides as a worst case scenario.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 11 juillet 2013 - 03:13 .

[BlueMagitek]

Wow, quite the generalization there, vpac.

I'm all for a reformed Circle and additional oversight from the Seekers, fyi.

[vpacheco1984]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Wow, quite the generalization there, vpac.

I'm all for a reformed Circle and additional oversight from the Seekers, fyi.

Do you mean actual reform you know allowed outside without an entire unit of templars waiting to cut them down, allowing them to keep in contact with their families even if their families can't bribe the templars to allow their letters through. Allowed to keep their children?

Or would it go back to the way it was only with seekers instead of templars and maybe the circles are given slightly bigger windows? Only two beatings a week? Would the be allowed to bath without being watched or go to the bathroom? Or would that be watched to? The second a pregnancy is discoverd are the mages forced to abort it? When they are allowed out of the circle will it be with two units of templar/seekers instead of one? Once outside the circle will the be allowed to move somewhat freely or would they be collared and shacked and dragged behind horses or wagons?

One of the things most want changed is the oversight. They can't so much as sneeze without worrying about being runthrough because of the oversight as it is now and you want to add more. 

Modifié par vpacheco1984, 11 juillet 2013 - 05:19 .

[Hellion Rex]

@Medhia Nox Believe it or not, while some pro-mages and pro-Templars are fanatical, not all of us are so generalized as you would make us out to be. Not all mages love to slit their wrists to summon demons. And who says a pro-Mage or Templar won't find the answer? Who says they can't learn to work together, in the face of the Veil being torn asunder? As much as vpacheco's response was "extreme", your words to him/her in return do no credit to those who favor the middle ground, the "screw both sides" path. I respect those who would try to find the middle ground, the compromise between the two extremes. But don't complain about and judge those who would pick sides while you sit there generalizing us all.

[Hellion Rex]

@vpacheco1984 I am a pro-Mage always, but even you go a little too far with the collaring and dragging portion. Although I do agree, the greatest irritation i had with the Templars Order in general was the oversight, the petty injustices that they got away with. And worse, their superiors either didn't notice or didn't care.

[vpacheco1984]

Sorry but I haven't seen that many pro-templars talking about positive reforms to the circles. In fact most of the ones I've read want things to be even worse. I should have worded my post better but as I said I haven't seen many pro-templars saying anything remotely positive about how to handle mages or the fact that all mages will turn to blood magic and demons which isn't true just as not all templars are sadistic perverts who creep in shadows waiting for a lone mage to attack.

Modifié par vpacheco1984, 11 juillet 2013 - 05:43 .

[Fredward]

Medhia Nox wrote...
Pro-Mages say: If you don't completely support everything I want.. you're EVIL AND AGAINST ME AND A HORRIBLE TYRANT! Oh yeah.. and it's totally okay if I use self-mutilation and demon summoning against you.

Pro-Templars: Again - more dismissal. Fine - stay out of the way, I'm killing those mages - they'll just make another Tevinter! Bad bad bad!

Yay for simple generalizations! They make the world easier to understand! 

[Lotion Soronarr]

DKJaigen wrote...
The aztecs ruled south america for hundreds of years. in took a group of spainards a few months to destroy their entire culture. Is thedas prepared to face a demonic invasion and swarms of dragons ? the answer is no. your argument about numbers is something that remains to be seen. Nations on thedas simply dont come to eachs other aid easily. and do not forget where their are dragons their are dragon cultist. you may find out  that their are people who want to become reavers or spirit warriors and take up arms against the chantry and the templars.

The aztecs were done in by deseases they had no immunity against. You comparison is silly.

Can TheDas fight off a demon invasion? We'll see. There's certanly nothing to say they can't. And there's a lot to indicate they can.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Foopydoopydoo wrote...

^ Lotion you're arguing mage imprisonment from a purely pragmatic POV right? Not a moral one?

Yes. And no.

Sometimes the pragmatic and moral can be the same thing.

After all, why it is "immoral" to lock up mages to safeguard the majority populace, but it's "moral" to set them free even if it's risking other peoples lives?
Moral grounds are shaky as hell eitehr way you look at it.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Also, what is with this "the templars are wathcing mages bathe/pee" nonsense?

[vpacheco1984]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Also, what is with this "the templars are wathcing mages bathe/pee" nonsense?

Mages are not allowed any form of privacy so it would only stand to reason that even thoes activities are watched.