1656 réponses à ce sujet

[Lotion Soronarr]

vpacheco1984 wrote...

It always amazes me how so many pro-templars think genocide and magical lobotomies is the answer.

Truth be told, it is *AN* answer.
IIRC, no one said it was *THE* answer.

Then again, there really aren't any answers that will satisfy everyone.

The facts as they are, tranqulity or genocide *IS* ONE way to deal with demons.

This has a point instead of trying to figure out a away for both sides to co-exsites, which is possible, like most pro-mages except for a few, while pro-templars want most mages locked up and treated worse than animals well the ones who are just put down in the street and burned so their bodies so their rotting bodies don't spread diesases.

Incorrect.
I don't think anyone wwantsm ages treated like animals.

[vpacheco1984]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

vpacheco1984 wrote...

It always amazes me how so many pro-templars think genocide and magical lobotomies is the answer.

Truth be told, it is *AN* answer.
IIRC, no one said it was *THE* answer.

Then again, there really aren't any answers that will satisfy everyone.

The facts as they are, tranqulity or genocide *IS* ONE way to deal with demons.

This has a point instead of trying to figure out a away for both sides to co-exsites, which is possible, like most pro-mages except for a few, while pro-templars want most mages locked up and treated worse than animals well the ones who are just put down in the street and burned so their bodies so their rotting bodies don't spread diesases.

Incorrect.
I don't think anyone wwantsm ages treated like animals.

You do. You talk about locking them up for everyone else safety like they are some kind of wild untamable dangerous animal that has no control or understanding of what right and wrong is. You talk about putting them some place out of mind where they can't help anyone. Except when some noble is sick or when there is an invading army. They you take them out point them in the right dircetion like they can't figure that out for themselves. Then after they have played their part they don't even get so much as a thank you before they are put back in some dark building where they are abused and treated worse than animals. 

Modifié par vpacheco1984, 11 juillet 2013 - 10:28 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

vpacheco1984 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Also, what is with this "the templars are wathcing mages bathe/pee" nonsense?

Mages are not allowed any form of privacy so it would only stand to reason that even thoes activities are watched. 

That is downright wrong. You have an extremely skewered view of the Circle if you actually believe what you are saying. We know for a fact that amges are allowed privacy. For instance, Meredith wasn't allowed to search the mages' living quarters, because that would be an intrusion upon the mages' privacy, and would be against the rights of the mages. So you are slamdunkingly, extremely, and all-overshadowingly wrong in your claims...

[vpacheco1984]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

vpacheco1984 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Also, what is with this "the templars are wathcing mages bathe/pee" nonsense?

Mages are not allowed any form of privacy so it would only stand to reason that even thoes activities are watched. 

That is downright wrong. You have an extremely skewered view of the Circle if you actually believe what you are saying. We know for a fact that amges are allowed privacy. For instance, Meredith wasn't allowed to search the mages' living quarters, because that would be an intrusion upon the mages' privacy, and would be against the rights of the mages. So you are slamdunkingly, extremely, and all-overshadowingly wrong in your claims...

I don't think so. I don't remember where it was but some where in the game it was stated that she had the mages cells searched before without the mages knowlage or permission and it wasn't considered by anyone besides the mages to be intursion on the mages privacy, since they don't have any. Also please remember mages have no rights remember. If you are talking about act three, Orsino and the mages were the only ones fighting Meredith's search, and if you are going to say Elthina would have stopped it we don't know that, I'm sure she wouldn't have. She probably would have told Orsino in her "kind" way to suck it up and let Meredith do waht she wants. The done nothing about the mass execution when the templars "found" evidence of blood magic in their search.

You do remember the rooms in Origins right? The apprentice quarters just one big room filled wall to wall with bunk beds. Even the enchanter rooms had at least two people in each room. So no privacy and the templars could go where ever they wanted.

[Ieldra]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

vpacheco1984 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Also, what is with this "the templars are wathcing mages bathe/pee" nonsense?

Mages are not allowed any form of privacy so it would only stand to reason that even thoes activities are watched. 

That is downright wrong. You have an extremely skewered view of the Circle if you actually believe what you are saying. We know for a fact that amges are allowed privacy. For instance, Meredith wasn't allowed to search the mages' living quarters, because that would be an intrusion upon the mages' privacy, and would be against the rights of the mages. So you are slamdunkingly, extremely, and all-overshadowingly wrong in your claims...

There is some inconsistency in how things are described, but there is no denying the fact that by all accounts, mages are watched almost all the time within the Circles. Various mages mention this in both DAO and DA2. In "Asunder" enchanter-rank mages have their own rooms, but as soon as they leave those rooms, they always have templars hovering about them. We also have evidence that mages don't have enough privacy for dates, at least in Kirkwall. Not a pretty picture.

So, while "they don't have any sort of privacy" may be a little exaggerated, things come rather close to that, and "having almost no privacy" is an almost euphemistic description of "being almost constantly under surveillance". Also, even if they don't actually invade the little private space the mages have left on a whim as a rule, it becomes pretty clear that the templars do have the right if they suspect illegal magic. Orsino uses "you don't have the right" in a non-legal sense, claiming the moral right to privacy against the templar's legal right to investigate.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 11 juillet 2013 - 12:40 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

Even if the Templars suspect illegal magic, they still DONT have the right to invade on the mages' privacy. Orsino makes that perfectly clear in act 3, when Meredith needs Orsino's approval for her to search the quarters. Since Orsino doesn't give it, Meredith must postpone her search. So even in a Circle as strict as Kirkwall, the privacy of the mages is respected. While I agree what little privacy the mages had in Kirkwall, leaves something to be wanted, it is still downright dishonest to try and potray the Circles as having stationed Templars next to every mage constantly, every hour of eveery day. We KNOW that isn't true. So it baffles me, why some try to continue to portray the Circles as such.

[Lotion Soronarr]

vpacheco1984 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

I don't think anyone wants mages treated like animals.

You do. You talk about locking them up for everyone else safety like they are some kind of wild untamable dangerous animal that has no control or understanding of what right and wrong is.

And segragation/quarantene has NOTHING to do with being treated like an animal. Unless of course you postulate it's one and the same. Which it's not.

Mages haven't shown so far to have great self-control, but have been shown to be dangerous for everyone around them, including themselves.

It would be nice if the Chantry would re-evaluate the necessity of all the restrictions, but leting them roam free? Nope.

[vpacheco1984]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Even if the Templars suspect illegal magic, they still DONT have the right to invade on the mages' privacy. Orsino makes that perfectly clear in act 3, when Meredith needs Orsino's approval for her to search the quarters. Since Orsino doesn't give it, Meredith must postpone her search. So even in a Circle as strict as Kirkwall, the privacy of the mages is respected. While I agree what little privacy the mages had in Kirkwall, leaves something to be wanted, it is still downright dishonest to try and potray the Circles as having stationed Templars next to every mage constantly, every hour of eveery day. We KNOW that isn't true. So it baffles me, why some try to continue to portray the Circles as such.

And you see the circle as what a utopia? 

Meredith didn't need Orsino's approval, the search was postpone becasue he was going to the Grand Cleric not becasue he refused to give his approval.

[Hellion Rex]

@Lotion Soronnar Remind me again how Wynne had little self control? Or Irving? Or Rhys?
And on another note, how would you feel if the Chantry were to be taken out of the equation entirely? What if the Templars were reformed along with the Circles?

[Lotion Soronarr]

vpacheco1984 wrote...
Also please remember mages have no rights remember.

Untrue.

Also, the entire "watching you bathe" was a rumor told by one mage in origins.

If you are talking about act three, Orsino and the mages were the only ones fighting Meredith's search, and if you are going to say Elthina would have stopped it we don't know that, I'm sure she wouldn't have. She probably would have told Orsino in her "kind" way to suck it up and let Meredith do waht she wants. The done nothing about the mass execution when the templars "found" evidence of blood magic in their search.

She probably would have let the search go on, because the search was 100% justified.

You do remember the rooms in Origins right? The apprentice quarters just one big room filled wall to wall with bunk beds. Even the enchanter rooms had at least two people in each room. So no privacy and the templars could go where ever they wanted.

Talk about taking the level desing too literaly. The game has limitations ya know.
I don't recall a toilet in the circle either.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 11 juillet 2013 - 01:15 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

vpacheco1984 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Even if the Templars suspect illegal magic, they still DONT have the right to invade on the mages' privacy. Orsino makes that perfectly clear in act 3, when Meredith needs Orsino's approval for her to search the quarters. Since Orsino doesn't give it, Meredith must postpone her search. So even in a Circle as strict as Kirkwall, the privacy of the mages is respected. While I agree what little privacy the mages had in Kirkwall, leaves something to be wanted, it is still downright dishonest to try and potray the Circles as having stationed Templars next to every mage constantly, every hour of eveery day. We KNOW that isn't true. So it baffles me, why some try to continue to portray the Circles as such.

And you see the circle as what a utopia? 

Meredith didn't need Orsino's approval, the search was postpone becasue he was going to the Grand Cleric not becasue he refused to give his approval.

You do realize there are varying stages between dystopia and utopia, right? But no, I do not see it as a utopia. I see it as the best current solution to a dificult problem.

And yes, she needed Orsino's approval to do the search legally, when she made it clear she intended to continue the search despite Orsino's disapproval, Orsino threatened to go to the Grand Cleric, which would lead to the Grand Cleric ordering Meredith to stop her illegal search.

[vpacheco1984]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

vpacheco1984 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

I don't think anyone wants mages treated like animals.

You do. You talk about locking them up for everyone else safety like they are some kind of wild untamable dangerous animal that has no control or understanding of what right and wrong is.

And segragation/quarantene has NOTHING to do with being treated like an animal. Unless of course you postulate it's one and the same. Which it's not.

Mages haven't shown so far to have great self-control, but have been shown to be dangerous for everyone around them, including themselves.

It would be nice if the Chantry would re-evaluate the necessity of all the restrictions, but leting them roam free? Nope.

Re-evaluate the necessity of all the restrictions? Like adding more? Perhaps sterilizing the mages when they are brought into the circle? If the speak outside of a spell they are beaten to death or maybe take a page out of the Qunari's handbook and sew their mouths shut when they are brought to the circle? Are thoses the restriction you like to see in the circle?

[vpacheco1984]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

vpacheco1984 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Even if the Templars suspect illegal magic, they still DONT have the right to invade on the mages' privacy. Orsino makes that perfectly clear in act 3, when Meredith needs Orsino's approval for her to search the quarters. Since Orsino doesn't give it, Meredith must postpone her search. So even in a Circle as strict as Kirkwall, the privacy of the mages is respected. While I agree what little privacy the mages had in Kirkwall, leaves something to be wanted, it is still downright dishonest to try and potray the Circles as having stationed Templars next to every mage constantly, every hour of eveery day. We KNOW that isn't true. So it baffles me, why some try to continue to portray the Circles as such.

And you see the circle as what a utopia? 

Meredith didn't need Orsino's approval, the search was postpone becasue he was going to the Grand Cleric not becasue he refused to give his approval.

You do realize there are varying stages between dystopia and utopia, right? But no, I do not see it as a utopia. I see it as the best current solution to a dificult problem.

And yes, she needed Orsino's approval to do the search legally, when she made it clear she intended to continue the search despite Orsino's disapproval, Orsino threatened to go to the Grand Cleric, which would lead to the Grand Cleric ordering Meredith to stop her illegal search.

Yes it's the best solutions. Templars are given free reign over the mages. Where a templar can get away with any kind of attack on mages becasue even if the mages does report no one will believe them. Your right this is a great solutions. How could I have been so wrong? What is wrong with the mages why are the so unhappy they are living in such great conditions!

Modifié par vpacheco1984, 11 juillet 2013 - 01:16 .

[Hellion Rex]

@vpacheco1984 Tranquility has never been a punishment for mages getting pregnant. Ever.

[EmperorSahlertz]

vpacheco1984 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

vpacheco1984 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Even if the Templars suspect illegal magic, they still DONT have the right to invade on the mages' privacy. Orsino makes that perfectly clear in act 3, when Meredith needs Orsino's approval for her to search the quarters. Since Orsino doesn't give it, Meredith must postpone her search. So even in a Circle as strict as Kirkwall, the privacy of the mages is respected. While I agree what little privacy the mages had in Kirkwall, leaves something to be wanted, it is still downright dishonest to try and potray the Circles as having stationed Templars next to every mage constantly, every hour of eveery day. We KNOW that isn't true. So it baffles me, why some try to continue to portray the Circles as such.

And you see the circle as what a utopia? 

Meredith didn't need Orsino's approval, the search was postpone becasue he was going to the Grand Cleric not becasue he refused to give his approval.

You do realize there are varying stages between dystopia and utopia, right? But no, I do not see it as a utopia. I see it as the best current solution to a dificult problem.

And yes, she needed Orsino's approval to do the search legally, when she made it clear she intended to continue the search despite Orsino's disapproval, Orsino threatened to go to the Grand Cleric, which would lead to the Grand Cleric ordering Meredith to stop her illegal search.

Yes it's the best solutions. Templars are given free reign over the mages. If an apperencie screws up and gets pregnant is justifcaiton for their tranquility. Where a templar can get away with any kind of attack on mages becasue even if the mages does report no one will believe them. Your right this is a great solutions. How could I have been so wrong? What is wrong with the mages why are the so unhappy they are living in such great conditions!

Honestly what the **** are you talking about? Pregnancy is NOT and never has been and never will it become groudns for the use of the Rite of Tranquility! And how do you know that Templar attacks are allowed, when we know for a fact that they aren't, and that Templars are required by law to adhere to the rights of the mages. And most mages are perfectly happy living in the Circles, and have been for the past 900 years.

You have an obviously skewered and biased, downright wrong view of the Cirlce, and until you actually make an effort and enlighten yourself on the subject matter, any furhter discussion wtih you is useless, since you don't even acknowledge what we know as fact...

[Ieldra]

@vpacheco1984:
You're not doing the side of the mages any favors with your simplistic overgeneralizations and false pronouncements. I'm saying this as the pro-mage originator of this thread. Arguing like this is like handing your ass to the pro-Templar radicals on a plate.

Regarding mage children: the most common practice appears to be to take away children from mage mothers. If they object, they can be put to death, as one of the DA comics shows. You see, you don't need to invent more bad stuff, there's enough of that around already, you just need to look.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 11 juillet 2013 - 01:24 .

[vpacheco1984]

eluvianix wrote...

@vpacheco1984 Tranquility has never been a punishment for mages getting pregnant. Ever.

Deleted it. I thought I read that somewhere. 

[Hellion Rex]

@leldra2 preach!

[vpacheco1984]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

vpacheco1984 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

vpacheco1984 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Even if the Templars suspect illegal magic, they still DONT have the right to invade on the mages' privacy. Orsino makes that perfectly clear in act 3, when Meredith needs Orsino's approval for her to search the quarters. Since Orsino doesn't give it, Meredith must postpone her search. So even in a Circle as strict as Kirkwall, the privacy of the mages is respected. While I agree what little privacy the mages had in Kirkwall, leaves something to be wanted, it is still downright dishonest to try and potray the Circles as having stationed Templars next to every mage constantly, every hour of eveery day. We KNOW that isn't true. So it baffles me, why some try to continue to portray the Circles as such.

And you see the circle as what a utopia? 

Meredith didn't need Orsino's approval, the search was postpone becasue he was going to the Grand Cleric not becasue he refused to give his approval.

You do realize there are varying stages between dystopia and utopia, right? But no, I do not see it as a utopia. I see it as the best current solution to a dificult problem.

And yes, she needed Orsino's approval to do the search legally, when she made it clear she intended to continue the search despite Orsino's disapproval, Orsino threatened to go to the Grand Cleric, which would lead to the Grand Cleric ordering Meredith to stop her illegal search.

Yes it's the best solutions. Templars are given free reign over the mages. If an apperencie screws up and gets pregnant is justifcaiton for their tranquility. Where a templar can get away with any kind of attack on mages becasue even if the mages does report no one will believe them. Your right this is a great solutions. How could I have been so wrong? What is wrong with the mages why are the so unhappy they are living in such great conditions!

Honestly what the **** are you talking about? Pregnancy is NOT and never has been and never will it become groudns for the use of the Rite of Tranquility! And how do you know that Templar attacks are allowed, when we know for a fact that they aren't, and that Templars are required by law to adhere to the rights of the mages. And most mages are perfectly happy living in the Circles, and have been for the past 900 years.

You have an obviously skewered and biased, downright wrong view of the Cirlce, and until you actually make an effort and enlighten yourself on the subject matter, any furhter discussion wtih you is useless, since you don't even acknowledge what we know as fact...

Mages don't have any rights beyond asking for the Rite Of Tranquility.

[EmperorSahlertz]

And yet another fallacy comming from you... As I said, do try an put some effort in it, and learn the source material, then try to participate in these debates...

[vpacheco1984]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

And yet another fallacy comming from you... As I said, do try an put some effort in it, and learn the source material, then try to participate in these debates...

Then enlighten me. Tell me what rights they have?

[EmperorSahlertz]

vpacheco1984 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

And yet another fallacy comming from you... As I said, do try an put some effort in it, and learn the source material, then try to participate in these debates...

Then enlighten me. Tell me what rights they have?

Since I don't have access to documents pertaining in detail to the rights of mages, it is impossible for me to give you a full list. However, we do know that mages got rights. For instance, they have a right to pratice and study magic after they've passed their Harrowing. They also have the right to a fair trial (as "fair" as any medieval trial can get anyway). They also have a right to privacy, as shown by Orsino and Meredith. Even on these few examples, can we determine that mages do indeed have rights. However in some cases, they aren't always respected or enforced, such as in Kirkwall. And THAT is the problem.

[Ieldra]

vpacheco1984 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

And yet another fallacy comming from you... As I said, do try an put some effort in it, and learn the source material, then try to participate in these debates...

Then enlighten me. Tell me what rights they have?

We don't know which rights they have by law because that's never mentioned. We can only infer from the actual events. One explicit right is "Mages past their Harrowing have a limited license to practice their magic" (World of Thedas). For everything else, the most reasonable approach to this topic would be to assume that they have the rights as everyone else, except those explicitly mentioned as being denied them in regular practice, regardless of what the law says because we don't know most of the law.

So...

(1) As mentioned above, mages past their Harrowing have a limited right to practice their magic.
(2) Mages can have children but cannot keep them.
(3) Mages have little privacy, but what they do have cannot be denied them without sufficient cause, and such cause is not to be determined by templars alone.
(4) Mages aren't denied relationships by law, but the level of surveillance works to achieve almost the same effect.

There are probably a few more, and more examples that amount to little in practice. The picture, as I said, is not pretty, but "they don't have any rights" is an overgeneralization.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 11 juillet 2013 - 01:56 .

[Plaintiff]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
For instance, they have a right to pratice and study magic after they've passed their Harrowing.

They don't have the option to not practice magic. It's not a "right" if the obligation is forced on you.

They also have the right to a fair trial (as "fair" as any medieval trial can get anyway).

Where has this been demonstrated?

They also have a right to privacy, as shown by Orsino and Meredith.

Meredith publicly states that Orsino doesn't have the right to prevent her from conducting a search, so I don't see how there's conclusive evidence either way. If mages do have the right to privacy, then Meredith should've realised her argument had no leg to stand on.

Even on these few examples, can we determine that mages do indeed have rights. However in some cases, they aren't always respected or enforced, such as in Kirkwall. And THAT is the problem.

If rights aren't respected or enforced, then the technical fact of their existence is moot.

There's no functional difference between lack of enforcement and lack of rights.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 11 juillet 2013 - 02:01 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

They also have Freedom of Association, the right to form political groups. Even political groups who are actively working against the Chantry's wishes like the Libertarians and the Resolutionists.