1656 réponses à ce sujet

[EmperorSahlertz]

Plaintiff wrote...
If rights aren't respected or enforced, then the technical fact of their existence is moot.

There's no functional difference between lack of enforcement and lack of rights.

GASP! Farmer Johnson in the **** of nowhere in the middle of Utah, didnt get his rights respected! LETS TEAR DOWN THE ENTIRE SYSTEM!!!!!11oneoneeleven........................

It is an unfortunate event when rights aren't repsected, but **** does sometimes happen. It calls for improvement of the system, not its destruction.

[vpacheco1984]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...
If rights aren't respected or enforced, then the technical fact of their existence is moot.

There's no functional difference between lack of enforcement and lack of rights.

GASP! Farmer Johnson in the **** of nowhere in the middle of Utah, didnt get his rights respected! LETS TEAR DOWN THE ENTIRE SYSTEM!!!!!11oneoneeleven........................

It is an unfortunate event when rights aren't repsected, but **** does sometimes happen. It calls for improvement of the system, not its destruction.

Sometime the only way to improve a system is to tear it down and rebuild it.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Then you aren't improving the system... You are replacing it.

[Plaintiff]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...
If rights aren't respected or enforced, then the technical fact of their existence is moot.

There's no functional difference between lack of enforcement and lack of rights.

GASP! Farmer Johnson in the **** of nowhere in the middle of Utah, didnt get his rights respected! LETS TEAR DOWN THE ENTIRE SYSTEM!!!!!11oneoneeleven........................

Reductio ad absurdium. We're not discussing an isolated incident, but a systemic issue that pervades both Circles we've seen so far.

It is an unfortunate event when rights aren't repsected, but **** does sometimes happen. It calls for improvement of the system, not its destruction.

That depends entirely on the system being discussed. Some trees should be torn out at the root.

Regardless, improvement is no longer an option, if it ever was. The Seekers and Templars are so opposed to changing the system that they chose to declare war on the mages rather than make any attempt to renegotiate terms.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 11 juillet 2013 - 02:13 .

[Hellion Rex]

@EmperorSahlertz How do you think the Circles would be best reformed then?

[vpacheco1984]

@EmperorSahlertz Sometimes that is what has to happen especially with a system that has become as corrupt as the current circle system has then it needs to be replaced.

Modifié par vpacheco1984, 11 juillet 2013 - 02:24 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

eluvianix wrote...

@EmperorSahlertz How do you think the Circles would be best reformed then?

It is hard to say. I believe one of the most crucial areas to improve upon, is the Templar Order. The Templars need to value the lives of the mages, learn to appreciate them. As it is, the Templars distance themselves from the mages, because if they fear that if they actually started to care, then they wouldn't be able to do what must be done. While I understand the current point of view of the Templars, I also think that it isn't the bst way to nurture and help the mages.
However, the Templars must remian and integrated part of the Circle. Mages will need oversight, and the Templars certainly have expertise on that matter. Perhaps a  joint council between the two, would be a step in the right direction. If anything this council would be symbolical, and show the rest of the Templars and mages that cooperations and coexistance is possible.
The mages must however still live in isolation from the outside world. Visits and other forms of contact will of course be allowed, and the mages of proven skill and mindset will be allowed to leave the Towers for a time. However, contact with the outside world will be sparse. This is however not a product of the system, buta  product of its time. There are no phones or internet, and travel takes weeks even months, and are often dangerous. So naturally not many peasants are willing to take the risks.

But by and large, the ystem as it is must remain. It is the teachings of the Templars, and attitudes of both mage and Templar which must change.

[Hellion Rex]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

@EmperorSahlertz How do you think the Circles would be best reformed then?

It is hard to say. I believe one of the most crucial areas to improve upon, is the Templar Order. The Templars need to value the lives of the mages, learn to appreciate them. As it is, the Templars distance themselves from the mages, because if they fear that if they actually started to care, then they wouldn't be able to do what must be done. While I understand the current point of view of the Templars, I also think that it isn't the bst way to nurture and help the mages.
However, the Templars must remian and integrated part of the Circle. Mages will need oversight, and the Templars certainly have expertise on that matter. Perhaps a  joint council between the two, would be a step in the right direction. If anything this council would be symbolical, and show the rest of the Templars and mages that cooperations and coexistance is possible.
The mages must however still live in isolation from the outside world. Visits and other forms of contact will of course be allowed, and the mages of proven skill and mindset will be allowed to leave the Towers for a time. However, contact with the outside world will be sparse. This is however not a product of the system, buta  product of its time. There are no phones or internet, and travel takes weeks even months, and are often dangerous. So naturally not many peasants are willing to take the risks.

But by and large, the ystem as it is must remain. It is the teachings of the Templars, and attitudes of both mage and Templar which must change.

"Ah, there is the answer sought. An open mind, and not one made of mush."
It is nice to know that there are still some people on here that can reasonably, and politely, defend their positions without resorting to generalizations like, "Kill all Templars!" or "Kill the mages!". Not to say that there are a lot of those types, but I feel like this thread has a tendency to get a little nasty both sides.
 Regardless, do you think the Chantry should remain attached to the Templars and Seekers? Or should the two groups go their own separate paths? Personally, I feel as if the Chantry's influence has somewhat reinforced the zealotry and occasional bigotry of the Templars.

[EmperorSahlertz]

eluvianix wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

@EmperorSahlertz How do you think the Circles would be best reformed then?

It is hard to say. I believe one of the most crucial areas to improve upon, is the Templar Order. The Templars need to value the lives of the mages, learn to appreciate them. As it is, the Templars distance themselves from the mages, because if they fear that if they actually started to care, then they wouldn't be able to do what must be done. While I understand the current point of view of the Templars, I also think that it isn't the bst way to nurture and help the mages.
However, the Templars must remian and integrated part of the Circle. Mages will need oversight, and the Templars certainly have expertise on that matter. Perhaps a  joint council between the two, would be a step in the right direction. If anything this council would be symbolical, and show the rest of the Templars and mages that cooperations and coexistance is possible.
The mages must however still live in isolation from the outside world. Visits and other forms of contact will of course be allowed, and the mages of proven skill and mindset will be allowed to leave the Towers for a time. However, contact with the outside world will be sparse. This is however not a product of the system, buta  product of its time. There are no phones or internet, and travel takes weeks even months, and are often dangerous. So naturally not many peasants are willing to take the risks.

But by and large, the ystem as it is must remain. It is the teachings of the Templars, and attitudes of both mage and Templar which must change.

"Ah, there is the answer sought. An open mind, and not one made of mush."
It is nice to know that there are still some people on here that can reasonably, and politely, defend their positions without resorting to generalizations like, "Kill all Templars!" or "Kill the mages!". Not to say that there are a lot of those types, but I feel like this thread has a tendency to get a little nasty both sides.
 Regardless, do you think the Chantry should remain attached to the Templars and Seekers? Or should the two groups go their own separate paths? Personally, I feel as if the Chantry's influence has somewhat reinforced the zealotry and occasional bigotry of the Templars.

Indeed. This is also something that has occupied my thoughts on the matter. If the Templars join with the Circle, we might risk that the Circles become too powerful politically for the nations to handle. But if they remian with the Chantry we might never see any improvements. So it is a tough call.
I do beleive though, that the Templars should leave the Chantry. Without the Templars, the Chantry have lost much of its secular power, and as it should be if you ask me, is now a mainly spiritual organization, which guide and advice, instead of strongarm their agenda.
However, with the Templars as an integrated part of the Circle, we risk bringing the legislative, executive and judicial departments into the same organization. This of course is a bad thing. We cannot pin our hopes on the Templars and mages doing "what is right".
This is where the Inquisition comes in. While I don't want the Inquisition to hold all three offices eitehr. I believe that the Inquisition should be the executive, the Circles be the legislative, and the nations being the judicial. This way, the Circles can live following laws they have themselves agreed upon, Templars and mage alike, under the auspices of the Inquisition and under national judgement. So if a nation does not agree with the laws the Circle sets, they can always deny a Circle being created within their borders. And the Inquisition will make sure that the laws of magic are upheld. And the Circles make sure the living conditions are tolerable for everyone.

[Ieldra]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

@EmperorSahlertz How do you think the Circles would be best reformed then?

It is hard to say. I believe one of the most crucial areas to improve upon, is the Templar Order. The Templars need to value the lives of the mages, learn to appreciate them. As it is, the Templars distance themselves from the mages, because if they fear that if they actually started to care, then they wouldn't be able to do what must be done. While I understand the current point of view of the Templars, I also think that it isn't the bst way to nurture and help the mages.
However, the Templars must remian and integrated part of the Circle. Mages will need oversight, and the Templars certainly have expertise on that matter. Perhaps a  joint council between the two, would be a step in the right direction. If anything this council would be symbolical, and show the rest of the Templars and mages that cooperations and coexistance is possible.

I can envision a cultural change where mages walk about with companions with templar skills who are friends rather than keepers, so that it's the interest of both parties to avoid out of control magic.  However, for that the authority of the templars over the mages in general would first have to end.

The mages must however still live in isolation from the outside world. Visits and other forms of contact will of course be allowed, and the mages of proven skill and mindset will be allowed to leave the Towers for a time. However, contact with the outside world will be sparse. This is however not a product of the system, buta  product of its time. There are no phones or internet, and travel takes weeks even months, and are often dangerous. So naturally not many peasants are willing to take the risks.

I disagree. That mages are kept in isolation both reduces their connectedness to the outside world and thus any desire to by considerate towards non-mages. Isolation breeds disregard on one side and suspicion and fear on the other. The isolation is another thing that must end.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 11 juillet 2013 - 08:24 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

Ieldra2 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

@EmperorSahlertz How do you think the Circles would be best reformed then?

It is hard to say. I believe one of the most crucial areas to improve upon, is the Templar Order. The Templars need to value the lives of the mages, learn to appreciate them. As it is, the Templars distance themselves from the mages, because if they fear that if they actually started to care, then they wouldn't be able to do what must be done. While I understand the current point of view of the Templars, I also think that it isn't the bst way to nurture and help the mages.
However, the Templars must remian and integrated part of the Circle. Mages will need oversight, and the Templars certainly have expertise on that matter. Perhaps a  joint council between the two, would be a step in the right direction. If anything this council would be symbolical, and show the rest of the Templars and mages that cooperations and coexistance is possible.

I can envision a cultural change where mages walk about with companions with templar skills who are friends rather than keepers, so that it's the interest of both parties to avoid out of control magic.  However, for that the authority of the templars over the mages in general would first have to end.

The mages must however still live in isolation from the outside world. Visits and other forms of contact will of course be allowed, and the mages of proven skill and mindset will be allowed to leave the Towers for a time. However, contact with the outside world will be sparse. This is however not a product of the system, buta  product of its time. There are no phones or internet, and travel takes weeks even months, and are often dangerous. So naturally not many peasants are willing to take the risks.

I disagree. That mages are kept in isolation both reduces their connectedness to the outside world and thus any desire to by considerate towards non-mages. Isolation breeds disregard on one side and suspicion and fear on the other. The isolation is another thing that must end.

The isolation is not there as a rule other than all the mages must live in the Circles. They are allowed visits, and are allowed correspondence with the outside world. So the isolation will end by itself, as soon as the communication technology has caught up.
Mages cannot be allowed to live free, simply because a single Abomination in the wrong place at the wrong time can destroy an entire region, and render it uninhabitable for several generations, perhaps even for all eternity. That is of course unacceptable for any sovereign nation, and thus, isolation of mages is a neccesity.

[Ieldra]

There is no evidence at all that an abomination can "destroy an entire region, and render it uninhabitable for several generations, perhaps even for all eternity"

Isolation of mages is the product of a small part of pragmatism, a bigger part of the desire to control power you don't have yourself, and a great deal of unreasonable fear - as your assertion shows all too well.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Ieldra2 wrote...

There is no evidence at all that an abomination can "destroy an entire region, and render it uninhabitable for several generations, perhaps even for all eternity"

Blackmarsh begs to differ.

Ieldra2 wrote...
Isolation of mages is the product of a small part of pragmatism, a bigger part of the desire to control power you don't have yourself, and a great deal of unreasonable fear - as your assertion shows all too well.

Fear is not neccesarily irrational. There are good reason for the commoners to be scared of magic. There are good reasons for the sovereigns and rulers of nations to be scared of magic. The point is to not let that fear make you do irrational actions.
Isolation of mages, is both the pragmatic and so far the only viable option. Perhaps in time, technology will catch up, making magic less of a threat, and then the mages can be allowed more freedoms. But as it is, magic is simply too unpredictable, and the consequences too potentially catastrophic, to simply ignore, all for some vaunted luxury of "equality".

[vpacheco1984]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

There is no evidence at all that an abomination can "destroy an entire region, and render it uninhabitable for several generations, perhaps even for all eternity"

Blackmarsh begs to differ.

Ieldra2 wrote...
Isolation of mages is the product of a small part of pragmatism, a bigger part of the desire to control power you don't have yourself, and a great deal of unreasonable fear - as your assertion shows all too well.

Fear is not neccesarily irrational. There are good reason for the commoners to be scared of magic. There are good reasons for the sovereigns and rulers of nations to be scared of magic. The point is to not let that fear make you do irrational actions.
Isolation of mages, is both the pragmatic and so far the only viable option. Perhaps in time, technology will catch up, making magic less of a threat, and then the mages can be allowed more freedoms. But as it is, magic is simply too unpredictable, and the consequences too potentially catastrophic, to simply ignore, all for some vaunted luxury of "equality".

The isolation is one of the biggest problems with the circle. Like Ieldra2 said it only causes problems. The islolation will only cuase the mages to grow disinterested in helping the outside world when it needs it and well as the distance if the problem is a plegaue. Why would the mages agree to help people they have no inevestment in? Why should they care if the population outside lives or dies? They won't need too or want too. If they are isolated they won't have to worry about a plegaue only if thye leave the tower and you know what they are going to do? They are going to give the people of the country they aren't apart of anymore the finger and won't risk their own lives. As for the people outside the cirlce, without interaction besides very few "visits" by a single mage gaurded by a dozen armed men ready to cut the mage down at any second will only breed free for the mages. 

There needs to be understanding between the mages and mundane where they can work together. Please don't use abmonation over running the tower and then slaughter a town. That many abmonation is rare especially if mages have fewer reason to take the demons deal, there are going to be the power hungry idoits like there are with all groups, but like you said early many of mages were happy in the circle. Give them more reason to a have full and happy life the less reason they have with demons. 

[MWImexico]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Mages cannot be allowed to live free, simply because a single Abomination in the wrong place at the wrong time can destroy an entire region, and render it uninhabitable for several generations, perhaps even for all eternity. That is of course unacceptable for any sovereign nation, and thus, isolation of mages is a neccesity.

Mmm I suppose the lady of the Blackmarsh has never put a foot in the circle, so obviously, she is not a good exemple. I mean, was she trained properly? I don't think so. Did she past an harrowing? Nope. She can easily be compared to Connor though, they are outlaw, apostates. I mean, the present system was already not capable to take care of them, you know...

Training is important for a mage, I guess the harrowing is also. Yet I still wonder about Uldred, he obviously had managed to pass his harrowing, yet he chose later to yield to a pride demon, he is probably an exeption but still, I wonder how something like this could be prevented.

Edit : (more precisely)
Even if the circle system goes on like it is right now, nothing can assure us that other abominations won't not pop here and there like Connor did or the Lady of the Blackmarsh.

Modifié par MWImexico, 11 juillet 2013 - 11:26 .

[vpacheco1984]

MWImexico wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Mages cannot be allowed to live free, simply because a single Abomination in the wrong place at the wrong time can destroy an entire region, and render it uninhabitable for several generations, perhaps even for all eternity. That is of course unacceptable for any sovereign nation, and thus, isolation of mages is a neccesity.

Mmm I suppose the lady of the Blackmarsh has never put a foot in the circle, so obviously, she is not a good exemple. I mean, was she trained properly? I don't think so. Did she past an harrowing? Nope. She can easily be compared to Connor though, they are outlaw, apostates. I mean, the present system was already not capable to take care of them, you know...

Training is important for a mage, I guess the harrowing is also. Yet I still wonder about Uldred, he obviously had managed to pass his harrowing, yet he choosed later to yield to a pride demon, he is probably an exeption but still, I wonder how something like this could be prevented.

Well Uldred like a lot of other survivors of Ostgar came back not playing with a whole deck if you know what I mean. Then on top of that he has Logains, most likely, empty promises of giving the circle over to the mages if he helped him in his Civil War. Not all the mages have as much mental fortiude as Wynne apparetnly had or he was already slighly unhenged before he went to Ostgar.

Modifié par vpacheco1984, 11 juillet 2013 - 11:30 .

[MWImexico]

I don't know. Right now I think Uldred is some kind of exception since other mages in DAO have left the circle to fight the darkspawn without any problem. I believe the training provided in the circle prevent most of the mages who have succeded their Harrowing to become abomination later. Even the lady-blood-mage that we can spare (or not) in the DAO circle did not become an abomination, so I guess that a low moral or the survival instinct are not a garantee that a mage will shift into an abomination.

[vpacheco1984]

How many mages did make it back from Ostgar? If I'm remebering correclty there were seven sent to aid the king not including the tanquil. I know about Wynne and Uldred but were there others? I can't remember. But I think you might be right he was exception not the rule. Though I think he thought he could draw power from the demon and still stay in control too but he was wrong. Hence the big ass pride demon we have to fight.

I hated that thing.

Modifié par vpacheco1984, 12 juillet 2013 - 12:07 .

[MWImexico]

I suppose the important thing with the mages who have left the circle to fight the darkspawn, is that none of them were reported as becoming abominations on the battlefield (or before or after).

vpacheco1984 wrote...
I hated that thing.

Yeah, I remember his long "facepalm" speech

Modifié par MWImexico, 12 juillet 2013 - 12:12 .

[vpacheco1984]

MWImexico wrote...

I suppose the important thing with the mages who have left the circle to fight the darkspawn, is that none of them were reported as becoming abominations on the battlefield (or before or after).

Yeah I suppose that is the important thing.

vpacheco1984 wrote...
I hated that thing.

MWImexico wrote...
Yeah, I remember his long "facepalm" speech

I know right! After my first play through I just had to skip his speech. I half expected him suddenly to grow a handlebar mustash and start twisting it.

[cjones91]

Personally I don't like blaming groups for the actions of individuals, so I treat mages who commit crimes using magic or becoming abominations as seperate acts.Condemning a entire group to death because of the actions of a few is one of the core reasons why I morally detest the Right of Annulment.

The Circles as they were did'nt help at all and treating mages like monsters was foolhardy at best.

I think the templars are needed but they seriously need to weed out the templars like Kerras,Alrik,and Meridith while having people like Evangeline,Gregoire,Ser Otto,Trask and Emeric be what the Templar Order should be.

[vpacheco1984]

I agree with you there.

Except for Greagoir, he wasn't that great of a templar either. But that is just me personally I don't like him.

Though I do some times find myself blaming all templars for the actions of a few. I try not to but I'm not always successful, a lot of the times I'm not successful.

[EmperorSahlertz]

MWImexico wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Mages cannot be allowed to live free, simply because a single Abomination in the wrong place at the wrong time can destroy an entire region, and render it uninhabitable for several generations, perhaps even for all eternity. That is of course unacceptable for any sovereign nation, and thus, isolation of mages is a neccesity.

Mmm I suppose the lady of the Blackmarsh has never put a foot in the circle, so obviously, she is not a good exemple. I mean, was she trained properly? I don't think so. Did she past an harrowing? Nope. She can easily be compared to Connor though, they are outlaw, apostates. I mean, the present system was already not capable to take care of them, you know...

Training is important for a mage, I guess the harrowing is also. Yet I still wonder about Uldred, he obviously had managed to pass his harrowing, yet he chose later to yield to a pride demon, he is probably an exeption but still, I wonder how something like this could be prevented.

Edit : (more precisely)
Even if the circle system goes on like it is right now, nothing can assure us that other abominations won't not pop here and there like Connor did or the Lady of the Blackmarsh.

We know nothing of her past. It is however also irrelevant. We know that even the best trained mages, may fall prey to demons. So if even more mages were living amongst the commoners, then cases like Conner and the Baroness, would be even more common. The rate of cases like Conner and the Baroness are already unacceptable. If there were to be even more of them.......

[cjones91]

vpacheco1984 wrote...

I agree with you there.

Except for Greagoir, he wasn't that great of a templar either. But that is just me personally I don't like him.

Though I do some times find myself blaming all templars for the actions of a few. I try not to but I'm not always successful, a lot of the times I'm not successful.

That's why I usually judge people in-game by their actions not the group they represent.

Pro-Templars try to blame all mages for the acts of a few but really that's the wrong way to go about it.Of course some Pro-Mages do the same thing but you can argue that the current Templar Order is one that needs to change from top to bottom.

Even though there are good templars like Evangeline,Ser Otto,Gregoire(even though he was a bit of a ****** in his younger years),Trask,and Emeric they don't out number the extremists who would gladly kill all mages if they could.

[EmperorSahlertz]

.... More generalization? Really?...