1656 réponses à ce sujet

[vpacheco1984]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

MWImexico wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Mages cannot be allowed to live free, simply because a single Abomination in the wrong place at the wrong time can destroy an entire region, and render it uninhabitable for several generations, perhaps even for all eternity. That is of course unacceptable for any sovereign nation, and thus, isolation of mages is a neccesity.

Mmm I suppose the lady of the Blackmarsh has never put a foot in the circle, so obviously, she is not a good exemple. I mean, was she trained properly? I don't think so. Did she past an harrowing? Nope. She can easily be compared to Connor though, they are outlaw, apostates. I mean, the present system was already not capable to take care of them, you know...

Training is important for a mage, I guess the harrowing is also. Yet I still wonder about Uldred, he obviously had managed to pass his harrowing, yet he chose later to yield to a pride demon, he is probably an exeption but still, I wonder how something like this could be prevented.

Edit : (more precisely)
Even if the circle system goes on like it is right now, nothing can assure us that other abominations won't not pop here and there like Connor did or the Lady of the Blackmarsh.

We know nothing of her past. It is however also irrelevant. We know that even the best trained mages, may fall prey to demons. So if even more mages were living amongst the commoners, then cases like Conner and the Baroness, would be even more common. The rate of cases like Conner and the Baroness are already unacceptable. If there were to be even more of them.......

We don't know if there would be more cases like Connr and the Baroness. We don't even know if she was the mage. She could have had one under lock and key she used, yes this is really farfected but it is a possiblities we do know that mundane can be influnced by demons.

IF and this is a really big if: she was mundane and had a mage to do her bidding who understress madness or what ever ripped the vail and allowed the demon through and possessed the barnons, we do know that a demon outside the fade can influnce mundane and possess them. Again this is just a big what if and it really farfected. Or she could have been a mundane and was the DA's verson of Elizabeth Bathory the blood countess. If I'm remembering correctly she was stealing the children of the Black Marsh. Perhaps she was mundane and thought, like Elizabeth, that bathing in the blood of virgins would keep her young and we know that pain, blood, and death weaken the Veil and perhaps that is how the demon gain influence over the Barness. Like I said this is all a BIG IF.

But as I was saying we don't know if there would be more cases like Conner and the Baroness. Allowing mages some freedoms could elimante that possiblity completely. We just don't know. But if the training was actually training and not life imprisonment means more mages would submit to the circle and get traing decressing their chances of getting possessed.

Modifié par vpacheco1984, 12 juillet 2013 - 12:58 .

[cjones91]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

MWImexico wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Mages cannot be allowed to live free, simply because a single Abomination in the wrong place at the wrong time can destroy an entire region, and render it uninhabitable for several generations, perhaps even for all eternity. That is of course unacceptable for any sovereign nation, and thus, isolation of mages is a neccesity.

Mmm I suppose the lady of the Blackmarsh has never put a foot in the circle, so obviously, she is not a good exemple. I mean, was she trained properly? I don't think so. Did she past an harrowing? Nope. She can easily be compared to Connor though, they are outlaw, apostates. I mean, the present system was already not capable to take care of them, you know...

Training is important for a mage, I guess the harrowing is also. Yet I still wonder about Uldred, he obviously had managed to pass his harrowing, yet he chose later to yield to a pride demon, he is probably an exeption but still, I wonder how something like this could be prevented.

Edit : (more precisely)
Even if the circle system goes on like it is right now, nothing can assure us that other abominations won't not pop here and there like Connor did or the Lady of the Blackmarsh.

We know nothing of her past. It is however also irrelevant. We know that even the best trained mages, may fall prey to demons. So if even more mages were living amongst the commoners, then cases like Conner and the Baroness, would be even more common. The rate of cases like Conner and the Baroness are already unacceptable. If there were to be even more of them.......

I think I read somewhere in the Codex that the Baroness was a Orleisian noble who was given land in BlackMarsh during the Orleisian occupation of Fereldan,afterwards when they were kicked out she refused to leave but I think she had already destroyed BlackMarsh by that time.

Also I agree that mages need to have some sort of "check in" where if they want to live outside the Circle they need to agree to having a Templar escort with them.The templars will live nearby the mage so that if he/she decides to do something bad the templars will respond and depending on the offense the mage will be sent back to the circle.

[cjones91]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

.... More generalization? Really?...

I did'nt generalize I said both sides blame the opposing group for the actions of a few.It's just that most pro-templars I've seen have a hard time separating the mages who use their magic to harm others from the ones that don't.

[MWImexico]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
We know nothing of her past. It is however also irrelevant. We know that even the best trained mages, may fall prey to demons.

You are joking right? Saying that the past of the few mages who did become dangerous abominations isn't' important? I believe the chantry should, on the contrary, look very closely into the past of those mages and study the reasons why they did turn into monsters while other mages didn't.

So if even more mages were living amongst the commoners, then cases like Conner and the Baroness, would be even more common. The rate of cases like Conner and the Baroness are already unacceptable. If there were to be even more of them.......

No, you can't be sure of that, since the Baroness and Connor didn't  have been trained properly (my point earlier). I'm not saying mages should run free without training, you know.  

[Vit246]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Mages cannot be allowed to live free, simply because a single Abomination in the wrong place at the wrong time can destroy an entire region, and render it uninhabitable for several generations, perhaps even for all eternity. That is of course unacceptable for any sovereign nation, and thus, isolation of mages is a neccesity.

Generalizations. Exaagerations. Misconceptions not supported by facts. Etc.

Modifié par Vit246, 12 juillet 2013 - 03:46 .

[The Hierophant]

I doubt destroying an entire region (a la the Tevinter magisters sinking Arlathan) being the norm, but a region being uninhabitable for mortals is a possible outcome when taking into account Avernus's actions at Soldier's Peak.

[addiction21]

The Hierophant wrote...

I doubt destroying an entire region (a la the Tevinter magisters sinking Arlathan) being the norm, but a region being uninhabitable for mortals is a possible outcome when taking into account Avernus's actions at Soldier's Peak.

It does not even have to be such an extreme. All it takes is one mage to cause some destruction willingly or thru possession. The only thing special about mages are that they are mages. They are no more moral or resistant to extreme moments of stress and emotions then anyone else.

All it takes is that one mage to succumb and they not only put everyone in the area in danger but any mage nearby. A mage does wrong and the rest are held responsible by mob mentality.

[cjones91]

The Hierophant wrote...

I doubt destroying an entire region (a la the Tevinter magisters sinking Arlathan) being the norm, but a region being uninhabitable for mortals is a possible outcome when taking into account Avernus's actions at Soldier's Peak.

Well to play devil's advocate here Avernus did try to get rid of the demons and was doing research for just that purpose.

[cjones91]

addiction21 wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

I doubt destroying an entire region (a la the Tevinter magisters sinking Arlathan) being the norm, but a region being uninhabitable for mortals is a possible outcome when taking into account Avernus's actions at Soldier's Peak.

It does not even have to be such an extreme. All it takes is one mage to cause some destruction willingly or thru possession. The only thing special about mages are that they are mages. They are no more moral or resistant to extreme moments of stress and emotions then anyone else.

All it takes is that one mage to succumb and they not only put everyone in the area in danger but any mage nearby. A mage does wrong and the rest are held responsible by mob mentality.

Sad but true.That's why the Chantry should have educated the non mages instead of exploiting their fear for their own benefit.Hundreds of years of anti magic propoganda has made it to the point where mages can be killed simply for using a simple spell and no one would bat a eye,and the Chantry is the one responsible for it all.

[The Hierophant]

addiction21 wrote...

It does not even have to be such an extreme. All it takes is one mage to cause some destruction willingly or thru possession. The only thing special about mages are that they are mages. They are no more moral or resistant to extreme moments of stress and emotions then anyone else.

All it takes is that one mage to succumb and they not only put everyone in the area in danger but any mage nearby. A mage does wrong and the rest are held responsible by mob mentality.

Aye, no arguments here.

cjones91 wrote...

Well to play devil's advocate here Avernus did try to get rid of the demons and was doing research for just that purpose.

True, but It's not about the right or wrong of his actions rather how a region can easily be rendered a No Man's Land due to demon summoning spiraling out control or abominations who usually summon more demons.

[cjones91]

The Hierophant wrote...

addiction21 wrote...

It does not even have to be such an extreme. All it takes is one mage to cause some destruction willingly or thru possession. The only thing special about mages are that they are mages. They are no more moral or resistant to extreme moments of stress and emotions then anyone else.

All it takes is that one mage to succumb and they not only put everyone in the area in danger but any mage nearby. A mage does wrong and the rest are held responsible by mob mentality.

Aye, no arguments here.

cjones91 wrote...

Well to play devil's advocate here Avernus did try to get rid of the demons and was doing research for just that purpose.

True, but It's not about the right or wrong of his actions rather how a region can easily be rendered a No Man's Land due to demon summoning spiraling out control or abominations who usually summon more demons.

I wonder how Thedas is going to look at the end of DA:Inquisition with all the demons running around?I have a feeling non mages are going to find out the hard way that mages aren't the only ones at risk of demonic possession.

[The Hierophant]

I wonder how Thedas is going to look at the end of DA:Inquisition with all the demons running around? I have a feeling non mages are going to find out the hard way that mages aren't the only ones at risk of demonic possession.

I think it's common knowledge that non mages could be possessed like Wilhelm's grand daughter Amalia or Sophia Dreyden, while the main issue with mages is that they're one of only two ways a demon can enter Thedas.

Now that there's a giant tear in the fade both groups are equally screwed.

[cjones91]

The Hierophant wrote...

I wonder how Thedas is going to look at the end of DA:Inquisition with all the demons running around? I have a feeling non mages are going to find out the hard way that mages aren't the only ones at risk of demonic possession.

I think it's common knowledge that non mages could be possessed like Wilhelm's grand daughter Amalia or Sophia Dreyden, while the main issue with mages is that they're one of only two ways a demon can enter Thedas.

Now that there's a giant tear in the fade both groups are equally screwed.

Yep and I highly doubt the normal person in Thedas knows how to deal with demons.Which is I'm going to force the templars and mages to work things out for the sole objective of kicking those demons back into the Fade

[Lotion Soronarr]

Ieldra2 wrote...

I disagree. That mages are kept in isolation both reduces their connectedness to the outside world and thus any desire to by considerate towards non-mages. Isolation breeds disregard on one side and suspicion and fear on the other. The isolation is another thing that must end.

Psychological experiments prove you wrong there.
Isolation more often than not has the OPPOSITE effect.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 12 juillet 2013 - 06:43 .

[vpacheco1984]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

I disagree. That mages are kept in isolation both reduces their connectedness to the outside world and thus any desire to by considerate towards non-mages. Isolation breeds disregard on one side and suspicion and fear on the other. The isolation is another thing that must end.

Psychological experiments prove you wrong there.
Isolation more often than not has the OPPOSITE effect.

Show me proff of this. 

[Fredward]

^ Yeah, I'd really like to see a study about that too. I can see maybe it happening initially (if you were brought to the Circle late) but I have serious trouble seeing how being isolated your entire life, never experiencing the world outside your gilded cage, is going to help foster empathy for its fate.

Modifié par Foopydoopydoo, 12 juillet 2013 - 07:14 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

cjones91 wrote...

Sad but true.That's why the Chantry should have educated the non mages instead of exploiting their fear for their own benefit.Hundreds of years of anti magic propoganda has made it to the point where mages can be killed simply for using a simple spell and no one would bat a eye,and the Chantry is the one responsible for it all.

Redicolous.
The reason people fear mages is because they have rational, valid reasons to fear them. Not because of "anti-mage Chantry propaganda".
Mages killed for using a spell and no one batting an eyelash? Sure... I guess that's why the Chantry has tempalrs rescuing mages from mundanes that would lynch them?

[Lotion Soronarr]

Would have to look for links, but the prisoner experiments shown that poeple who isolate themselves more are less likely to abuse the prisoners, the rationale being that they seek companionship more... or something like that.
Been a while since I read that.

[vpacheco1984]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Would have to look for links, but the prisoner experiments shown that poeple who isolate themselves more are less likely to abuse the prisoners, the rationale being that they seek companionship more... or something like that.
Been a while since I read that.

The Stanford experiment?

[vpacheco1984]

Here is some information on the Stanford Prison Experiment.

http://en.wikipedia....ison_experiment

Modifié par vpacheco1984, 12 juillet 2013 - 08:06 .

[Fredward]

^ I hope that isn't what he's talking about because nothing in that experiment corroborates his point... at all.

[Ieldra]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Would have to look for links, but the prisoner experiments shown that poeple who isolate themselves more are less likely to abuse the prisoners, the rationale being that they seek companionship more... or something like that.
Been a while since I read that.

The situation is not comparable. (1) The mages are analogous to the prisoners in this experiment, not to the keepers, and (2) the problem is disregard towards those outside arising from the mages' isolation.

As I see it, the Circle is a risk factor for a future Tevinter scenario. Mages integrated into society would possible increase the frequency of magic being used for crimes, but the Circle system increases the risk of mages banding together as a group to dominate others. If mages had families, friends and other non-mage social connections, this would make both sides recognize that the other side are people too instead of "potential monsters" or "insignificant mundanes". Mob mentality is always a danger, but it's much more likely to arise from segregation. 

Modifié par Ieldra2, 12 juillet 2013 - 08:25 .

[vpacheco1984]

@Foopydoopydoo I don't know. That's the only prison experiment I know of and the only one I could find that wasn't a movie. Which was also as disastrously.

Modifié par vpacheco1984, 12 juillet 2013 - 08:25 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

Vit246 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Mages cannot be allowed to live free, simply because a single Abomination in the wrong place at the wrong time can destroy an entire region, and render it uninhabitable for several generations, perhaps even for all eternity. That is of course unacceptable for any sovereign nation, and thus, isolation of mages is a neccesity.

Generalizations. Exaagerations. Misconceptions not supported by facts. Etc.

Oh really? Then we must all just have been imagining things when we walked through the Circle, Soldier's Peak, Brecillian Forest and the Blackmarsh... How odd....

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 12 juillet 2013 - 11:24 .

[vpacheco1984]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Vit246 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Mages cannot be allowed to live free, simply because a single Abomination in the wrong place at the wrong time can destroy an entire region, and render it uninhabitable for several generations, perhaps even for all eternity. That is of course unacceptable for any sovereign nation, and thus, isolation of mages is a neccesity.

Generalizations. Exaagerations. Misconceptions not supported by facts. Etc.

Oh really? Then we must all just have been imagining things when we walked through the Circle, Soldier's Peak, Brecillian Forest and the Blackmarsh... How odd....

Those places were not only caused magic but by a lot of death and pain too except for maybe the Blackmarsh. But they weren't all uninhabitable for generations like the Bercillian Forest was still inhabitable excpet for some places but not all of it was caused by magic.

Modifié par vpacheco1984, 12 juillet 2013 - 12:05 .