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[EmperorSahlertz]

vpacheco1984 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Vit246 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Mages cannot be allowed to live free, simply because a single Abomination in the wrong place at the wrong time can destroy an entire region, and render it uninhabitable for several generations, perhaps even for all eternity. That is of course unacceptable for any sovereign nation, and thus, isolation of mages is a neccesity.

Generalizations. Exaagerations. Misconceptions not supported by facts. Etc.

Oh really? Then we must all just have been imagining things when we walked through the Circle, Soldier's Peak, Brecillian Forest and the Blackmarsh... How odd....

Those places were not only caused magic but by a lot of death and pain except for maybe the Blackmarsh. But they weren't all uninhabitable for generations like the Bercillian Forest was still inhabitable excpet for some places but not all of it was caused by magic.

All of it was caused by demons. With more free mages, there will be more demon outbreaks. With more demon outbreaks, there will come more areas like the ones mentioned. It is as simple as that.

[EmperorSahlertz]

cjones91 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

.... More generalization? Really?...

I did'nt generalize I said both sides blame the opposing group for the actions of a few.It's just that most pro-templars I've seen have a hard time separating the mages who use their magic to harm others from the ones that don't.

I am not blaming mages for anything. I couldn't care less about how the Darkspawn were created, or how oppressing the Tevinter Imperium is. What I am doing, is acknowledging the inherint danger all mages pose, and then thinking of the best way to handle this for society as a whole.

[vpacheco1984]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

vpacheco1984 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Vit246 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Mages cannot be allowed to live free, simply because a single Abomination in the wrong place at the wrong time can destroy an entire region, and render it uninhabitable for several generations, perhaps even for all eternity. That is of course unacceptable for any sovereign nation, and thus, isolation of mages is a neccesity.

Generalizations. Exaagerations. Misconceptions not supported by facts. Etc.

Oh really? Then we must all just have been imagining things when we walked through the Circle, Soldier's Peak, Brecillian Forest and the Blackmarsh... How odd....

Those places were not only caused magic but by a lot of death and pain except for maybe the Blackmarsh. But they weren't all uninhabitable for generations like the Bercillian Forest was still inhabitable excpet for some places but not all of it was caused by magic.

All of it was caused by demons. With more free mages, there will be more demon outbreaks. With more demon outbreaks, there will come more areas like the ones mentioned. It is as simple as that.

Please look past you burning hate for mages and listen NOT EVERYTHING THAT HAPPENED IN THOES PLACE WAS JUST BECASUE OF MAGES!  Some of it was caused by the bloodshed, pain and death that happened there. But you refuse to acknowlage that becasue that means that mages aren't mindless blood thristy monster roaming Theadus sacrficing virgins and summoning demons to butcher innocent people for fun.

Not all of them are virtues but neither are the all bloodthirst homocidal maniacs who want to pit people and demons against each other in some kind of ****ed up thunderdom. 

Modifié par vpacheco1984, 12 juillet 2013 - 11:15 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

vpacheco1984 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

vpacheco1984 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Vit246 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Mages cannot be allowed to live free, simply because a single Abomination in the wrong place at the wrong time can destroy an entire region, and render it uninhabitable for several generations, perhaps even for all eternity. That is of course unacceptable for any sovereign nation, and thus, isolation of mages is a neccesity.

Generalizations. Exaagerations. Misconceptions not supported by facts. Etc.

Oh really? Then we must all just have been imagining things when we walked through the Circle, Soldier's Peak, Brecillian Forest and the Blackmarsh... How odd....

Those places were not only caused magic but by a lot of death and pain except for maybe the Blackmarsh. But they weren't all uninhabitable for generations like the Bercillian Forest was still inhabitable excpet for some places but not all of it was caused by magic.

All of it was caused by demons. With more free mages, there will be more demon outbreaks. With more demon outbreaks, there will come more areas like the ones mentioned. It is as simple as that.

Please look past you burning hate for mages and listen NOT EVERYTHING THAT HAPPENED IN THOES PLACE WAS JUST BECASUE OF MAGES!  Some of it was caused by the bloodshed, pain and death that happened there. But you refuse to acknowlage that becasue that means that mages aren't mindless blood thristy monster roaming Theadus sacrficing virgins and summoning demons to butcher innocent people for fun.

Not all of them are virtues but neither are the all bloodthirst homocidal maniacs who want to pit people and demons against each other in some kind of ****ed up thunderdom. 

You are either lacking reading comprehension, or really, really dense...
I do not hate mages... I don't even hate magic.. I do however, see the threat magic, and by extension mages, pose to everything it touches. Wetehr or not all those areas were caused by amges is irrelevant, ALL of them were caused by magic. From demons. Places like Brecillian, which if memory serves was caused by bloodshed, will happen, despite mages being free or not. Places like Blackmarsh, will not happen, if all mages were in the Circle.
I don't care much about a mage and his abilities, if it weren't beacuse of blood magic, and the fact that he draws demons to himself, wether he wants to or not. Demons and blood mages are the threat, and I am not about to place all my trust in a mage "not wanting to be the bad guy".

[cjones91]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

vpacheco1984 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

vpacheco1984 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Vit246 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Mages cannot be allowed to live free, simply because a single Abomination in the wrong place at the wrong time can destroy an entire region, and render it uninhabitable for several generations, perhaps even for all eternity. That is of course unacceptable for any sovereign nation, and thus, isolation of mages is a neccesity.

Generalizations. Exaagerations. Misconceptions not supported by facts. Etc.

Oh really? Then we must all just have been imagining things when we walked through the Circle, Soldier's Peak, Brecillian Forest and the Blackmarsh... How odd....

Those places were not only caused magic but by a lot of death and pain except for maybe the Blackmarsh. But they weren't all uninhabitable for generations like the Bercillian Forest was still inhabitable excpet for some places but not all of it was caused by magic.

All of it was caused by demons. With more free mages, there will be more demon outbreaks. With more demon outbreaks, there will come more areas like the ones mentioned. It is as simple as that.

Please look past you burning hate for mages and listen NOT EVERYTHING THAT HAPPENED IN THOES PLACE WAS JUST BECASUE OF MAGES!  Some of it was caused by the bloodshed, pain and death that happened there. But you refuse to acknowlage that becasue that means that mages aren't mindless blood thristy monster roaming Theadus sacrficing virgins and summoning demons to butcher innocent people for fun.

Not all of them are virtues but neither are the all bloodthirst homocidal maniacs who want to pit people and demons against each other in some kind of ****ed up thunderdom. 

You are either lacking reading comprehension, or really, really dense...
I do not hate mages... I don't even hate magic.. I do however, see the threat magic, and by extension mages, pose to everything it touches. Wetehr or not all those areas were caused by amges is irrelevant, ALL of them were caused by magic. From demons. Places like Brecillian, which if memory serves was caused by bloodshed, will happen, despite mages being free or not. Places like Blackmarsh, will not happen, if all mages were in the Circle.
I don't care much about a mage and his abilities, if it weren't beacuse of blood magic, and the fact that he draws demons to himself, wether he wants to or not. Demons and blood mages are the threat, and I am not about to place all my trust in a mage "not wanting to be the bad guy".

Magic can also be used for good just like anything else.Also Brecillian Forest became the way it is thanks to countless wars that took place there not because of magic,mages are dangerous but not all of them are which is true for just about everyone.

[EmperorSahlertz]

cjones91 wrote...
Magic can also be used for good just like anything else.Also Brecillian Forest became the way it is thanks to countless wars that took place there not because of magic,mages are dangerous but not all of them are which is true for just about everyone.

Indeed it can, but it poses an inherent danger, and is best only used in controlled environments.
And Brecillian forst became the way it is because of bloodshed yes. Bloodshed which caused the veil to tear, and allowed for pure magic, in the form of demons, to seep into Thedas. So yes, magic is the reason for why Brecillian Forest is the way it is.
And lastly, yes ALL mages are dangerous. No matter their intent, no matter their skill, they all poses an inherent danger whenever they cast a spell.

[addiction21]

cjones91 wrote...

Magic can also be used for good just like anything else.Also Brecillian Forest became the way it is thanks to countless wars that took place there not because of magic,mages are dangerous but not all of them are which is true for just about everyone.

I haven't seen anyone deny it can be used for good and it is a damned shame its not used for that purpose more. Something that needs to be remedied but it doesn't change that even the best of mages can succumb to demons. Mages that have passed a terrible ordeal like the Harrowing and have been "good mages" as the setting would say.

What we also have seen is the danger anyone mage posses.

So ask yourself are you willing to put all known mages at risk because one (and that's all it would take is one) getting possessed and wrecking havoc?

[vpacheco1984]

addiction21 wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Magic can also be used for good just like anything else.Also Brecillian Forest became the way it is thanks to countless wars that took place there not because of magic,mages are dangerous but not all of them are which is true for just about everyone.

I haven't seen anyone deny it can be used for good and it is a damned shame its not used for that purpose more. Something that needs to be remedied but it doesn't change that even the best of mages can succumb to demons. Mages that have passed a terrible ordeal like the Harrowing and have been "good mages" as the setting would say.

What we also have seen is the danger anyone mage posses.

So ask yourself are you willing to put all known mages at risk because one (and that's all it would take is one) getting possessed and wrecking havoc?

They haven't denied it but they haven't mentioned it either. Instead they seem to focus solely as potential danger of mages and state as inevitable fact that all mages will turn to blood magic and/or turn into abmonations at the drop of a hat. If they actually mean that or not I don't know but that is how it seems to me.

Modifié par vpacheco1984, 13 juillet 2013 - 02:42 .

[addiction21]

vpacheco1984 wrote...


They haven't denied it but they haven't mentioned it either. Instead they seem to focus solely as potential danger of mages and state as inevitable fact that all mages will turn to blood magic and/or turn into abmonations at the drop of a hat. If they actually mean that or not I don't know but that is how it seems to me.

No they have not "state as inevitable fact that all mages will turn to blood magic and/or turn in abominations at the drop of the hat"

They have shown many mages that have done no such thing even when met with the same difficulties but BioWare has also showed the flip side. But it doesn't matter because it has been made clear every mage is always at risk. Yes there are those that do not but all it takes is one.

So answer the question. Are you willing to put the safety of all local mages at risk because one succumbs? It doesn't have to be possession they could be doing blood magic, or just using normal magic to get their way.  Again mages are not inherently more moral then any other person

It is just as much about protecting "the mundanes" from mages as protecting the innocent mages from those mages the do succumb to human nature.

[vpacheco1984]

addiction21 wrote...

vpacheco1984 wrote...


They haven't denied it but they haven't mentioned it either. Instead they seem to focus solely as potential danger of mages and state as inevitable fact that all mages will turn to blood magic and/or turn into abmonations at the drop of a hat. If they actually mean that or not I don't know but that is how it seems to me.

No they have not "state as inevitable fact that all mages will turn to blood magic and/or turn in abominations at the drop of the hat"

They have shown many mages that have done no such thing even when met with the same difficulties but BioWare has also showed the flip side. But it doesn't matter because it has been made clear every mage is always at risk. Yes there are those that do not but all it takes is one.

So answer the question. Are you willing to put the safety of all local mages at risk because one succumbs? It doesn't have to be possession they could be doing blood magic, or just using normal magic to get their way.  Again mages are not inherently more moral then any other person

It is just as much about protecting "the mundanes" from mages as protecting the innocent mages from those mages the do succumb to human nature.

So they are protecting the innocent mages by forcing them to live in close quarters with the mages who would give into temptation? Or is it just to keep them all in one place so "save" them by killig them all when one goes bad?

[cjones91]

vpacheco1984 wrote...

addiction21 wrote...

vpacheco1984 wrote...


They haven't denied it but they haven't mentioned it either. Instead they seem to focus solely as potential danger of mages and state as inevitable fact that all mages will turn to blood magic and/or turn into abmonations at the drop of a hat. If they actually mean that or not I don't know but that is how it seems to me.

No they have not "state as inevitable fact that all mages will turn to blood magic and/or turn in abominations at the drop of the hat"

They have shown many mages that have done no such thing even when met with the same difficulties but BioWare has also showed the flip side. But it doesn't matter because it has been made clear every mage is always at risk. Yes there are those that do not but all it takes is one.

So answer the question. Are you willing to put the safety of all local mages at risk because one succumbs? It doesn't have to be possession they could be doing blood magic, or just using normal magic to get their way.  Again mages are not inherently more moral then any other person

It is just as much about protecting "the mundanes" from mages as protecting the innocent mages from those mages the do succumb to human nature.

So they are protecting the innocent mages by forcing them to live in close quarters with the mages who would give into temptation? Or is it just to keep them all in one place so "save" them by killig them all when one goes bad?

I reckon it's both.The Circles are there to keep all the mages in one place so that if one decides to go bat**** insane the templars could then let the mages fend for themselves while waiting for the Rite Of Annulment.

[vpacheco1984]

cjones91 wrote...

vpacheco1984 wrote...

addiction21 wrote...

vpacheco1984 wrote...


They haven't denied it but they haven't mentioned it either. Instead they seem to focus solely as potential danger of mages and state as inevitable fact that all mages will turn to blood magic and/or turn into abmonations at the drop of a hat. If they actually mean that or not I don't know but that is how it seems to me.

No they have not "state as inevitable fact that all mages will turn to blood magic and/or turn in abominations at the drop of the hat"

They have shown many mages that have done no such thing even when met with the same difficulties but BioWare has also showed the flip side. But it doesn't matter because it has been made clear every mage is always at risk. Yes there are those that do not but all it takes is one.

So answer the question. Are you willing to put the safety of all local mages at risk because one succumbs? It doesn't have to be possession they could be doing blood magic, or just using normal magic to get their way.  Again mages are not inherently more moral then any other person

It is just as much about protecting "the mundanes" from mages as protecting the innocent mages from those mages the do succumb to human nature.

So they are protecting the innocent mages by forcing them to live in close quarters with the mages who would give into temptation? Or is it just to keep them all in one place so "save" them by killig them all when one goes bad?

I reckon it's both.The Circles are there to keep all the mages in one place so that if one decides to go bat**** insane the templars could then let the mages fend for themselves while waiting for the Rite Of Annulment.

Sounds about right. I don't remember the templars ever really protecting the mages in Ferelden or Kirkwall. When the tower fell or almost fell to Uldred the templars locked the mages in and left them to die while they waited for the Rite of Annulment. We all know all the crap that happened in Kirkwall there wasn't much protecting going on there.

Modifié par vpacheco1984, 13 juillet 2013 - 04:29 .

[addiction21]

Annulment is not there because "one went bad" It is there as a last resort and for the Feralden circle it was mages that placed the barrier and kept it up at the risk of their own lives. Not the Templars.

[vpacheco1984]

addiction21 wrote...

Annulment is not there because "one went bad" It is there as a last resort and for the Feralden circle it was mages that placed the barrier and kept it up at the risk of their own lives. Not the Templars.

The barrier was the only thing keeping the mages safe after all the templars didn't even try and get any of the mages out of the main tower when the attack happened they just got the templars out and barred the door and refuesed to open them again. 

If it was such as "last resort" then why did they annul the Rivain Circle. There were no demons or abominations. They just refused to convert and allowed families to visit the mages. 

Modifié par vpacheco1984, 13 juillet 2013 - 04:53 .

[addiction21]

If that barrier was keeping mages safe then explain all the dead and possessed ones? How about the Templars?

They were inside the barrier they were not keeping themselves safe.

Try again.

[vpacheco1984]

The barrier that Wynne put up was the only thing protecting the mages when the templars closed the doors and barred them. You know out in the area near the door out of the tower. After they ran and left the mages they were supposed to be protecting to die. I'm pretty sure the the dead mages were most likely killed by the templars, you know the ones whow weren't part of the rebellion since templars can't seem to be able handle a mage who is actually fighting back.

What barrier are you talking about?

Modifié par vpacheco1984, 13 juillet 2013 - 05:04 .

[addiction21]

Why are you asking about "what barrier" when you acknowledge Wynne helped to place one? One she was inside of and would not drop unless the mages that were causing all the problems were handled before it would be dropped.

But of course the mages that succumb to passion are innocent right?

Everything that happened in the circle was the fault of the Templars right?

The mages bear no responsibility because its always somebody else's fault?

You have not done it once but this is the question I want answered. How can you absolve mages of any wrong when its made clear that circle is lost? The few surviving mages state that.

[vpacheco1984]

I'm asking if I have forgotten about some other barrier had been put up beside the one Wynne had to to do the templars job you know protect the mages. She wouldn't drop the barrier because if she did the mages would have been over run by demons and abominations after they were locked in the tower by the templars.

I never said that mages who succumb to demons are innocent. But I did say that we don't know if all the dead mages were killed by demons or templars or if they were actually actively taking part in the rebellion or just innocent by standers. I said that templars can't seem to be able to handle abominations or blood mages and since that SEEMS to be the case it is only logical that the mages killed by the templars were the ones who weren't fighting back mistaking thinking that the templars were actually going to do their jobs and protect them. To bad for them.

I never said that templars were the cause of the rebellion though I'm sure they were part of the reason not the whole reason but part of it.

The only mage who stated that the circle was lost was the little **** who was so brainwashed by the Chantry dogma that she wanted to be killed or made tranquil to absolve her of the sin of existent.

If the circle was lost then how could the warden save it at all?

[Ieldra]

addiction21 wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Magic can also be used for good just like anything else.Also Brecillian Forest became the way it is thanks to countless wars that took place there not because of magic,mages are dangerous but not all of them are which is true for just about everyone.

I haven't seen anyone deny it can be used for good and it is a damned shame its not used for that purpose more. Something that needs to be remedied but it doesn't change that even the best of mages can succumb to demons. Mages that have passed a terrible ordeal like the Harrowing and have been "good mages" as the setting would say.

What we also have seen is the danger anyone mage posses.

So ask yourself are you willing to put all known mages at risk because one (and that's all it would take is one) getting possessed and wrecking havoc?

First, I don't agree with your last statement that "it would take only one", not if mages are known to also do significant good with their magic, such as fighting darkspawn or healing people (Anders, ironically, being an example for both).
Second, I maintain that the CIrcle environment fosters possession events rather than preventing them (see the OP as for why I think so) and that it is necessary to experiment with different setups.
Third, there could be a system where mages are required to repeat the tests that prove they're in control of their magic, for instance every three or five years. 
And lastly, I don't have anything against mages always travelling with companions with templar abilities (as opposed to members of the templar order), as long as those are friends rather than keepers and don't represent a hostile ideology. I think almost any mage would be interested in being prevented from causing accidents with their magic, preferably before it results in deaths, and if the companion is a friend there is an added incentive to remain in control.  

Apart frrom the fundamental injustice, I see the greatest problem of the current system in that it does not motivate mages to care about anything but themselves, and that it breeds disregard on one side and suspicion and fear in the other. I think whatever replaces the Circle system should appeal to the best human instincts at least as much as trying to prevent expression of the worst. 

[Ieldra]

addiction21 wrote...
Annulment is not there because "one went bad" It is there as a last resort

The ghosts of the Dairsmuid Circle beg to differ. By all known accounts, that wasn't a last resorst against rampant destruction caused by abominations, that was a war of extinction against a group that admittedly violated the rules, but lived peacefully and didn't cause any damage.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Ieldra2 wrote...

addiction21 wrote...
Annulment is not there because "one went bad" It is there as a last resort

The ghosts of the Dairsmuid Circle beg to differ. By all known accounts, that wasn't a last resorst against rampant destruction caused by abominations, that was a war of extinction against a group that admittedly violated the rules, but lived peacefully and didn't cause any damage.

They forcefully resisted the Templars who arrived there to try and normalize the Circle... Only once it became clear that the Circle couldn't be normalized, was the Annulment called. At that time, the Circle was in open rebellion, so it was practically an act of war.

[Ieldra]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

addiction21 wrote...
Annulment is not there because "one went bad" It is there as a last resort

The ghosts of the Dairsmuid Circle beg to differ. By all known accounts, that wasn't a last resorst against rampant destruction caused by abominations, that was a war of extinction against a group that admittedly violated the rules, but lived peacefully and didn't cause any damage.

They forcefully resisted the Templars who arrived there to try and normalize the Circle... Only once it became clear that the Circle couldn't be normalized, was the Annulment called. At that time, the Circle was in open rebellion, so it was practically an act of war.

An act of war which wouldn't have happened had the templars left the Circle alone. I guess they couldn't leave things alone, since it would've destabilized the whole system, but still the templars were the aggressors here. They fought to continue their oppression of mages instead of giving them the chance to prove that the permanent internment was unnecessary.

While I'm at it, here's another little tidbit I just became aware of: the war of the Chantry against Tevinter had nothing to do with magic at first. According to Leliana's account of the story in DAO, they acted because the Maker had promised the faithful to return if everyone returned to worship him. It was a war of religious conquest and expansion, a first-degree aggression. The "problem of magic" was just a convenient excuse.

[DPSSOC]

vpacheco1984 wrote...
They haven't denied it but they haven't mentioned it either. Instead they seem to focus solely as potential danger of mages

 
Because that's what needs to be planned for.  You don't design a building to withstand good weather and pray you never get anything more than a light rain, you design it to withstand the worst weather (plus some if you're smart) so that no matter what happens there's a good chance it'll hold.

If mages are free and there are no problems that's great, but what happens when there are?  How do you mitigate them, how do you ensure acceptable response times and containment, etc.  I've yet to see mage supporters address these with anywhere near the effectiveness of the Circle.  Keep in mind I'm not just talking about abominations or evil mages but accidents, slips of control, and lapses in judgement.

vpacheco1984 wrote...
and state as inevitable fact that all mages will turn to blood magic and/or turn into abmonations at the drop of a hat. If they actually mean that or not I don't know but that is how it seems to me.

That some will is inevitable yes, and the question then is how much damage will they do before they're stopped, and is mage freedom worth it.  Perfect example is alcohol.  Now we know, as a society, that certain negative outcomes can, and inevitably will, result from the consumption of alcohol (drinking and driving accidents, angry drunks getting into fights, etc.).  We also know the negative outcomes of outright banning alcohol and we've decided, as a society, to accept the outcomes of allowing alcohol and mitigating them as best we can.

It's the same with mages, we know what  negative outcomes can, and inevitably will, result from allowing them greater freedom as well as those from locking them up.  It is then a matter of deciding what society is willing to accept.

vpacheco1984 wrote...
I'm asking if I have forgotten about some other barrier had been put up beside the one Wynne had to to do the templars job you know protect the mages. She wouldn't drop the barrier because if she did the mages would have been over run by demons and abominations after they were locked in the tower by the Templars.

You realize Wynne was protecting all of 3 other mages and maybe 3 more children while her barrier was leaving the rest of the mages in the tower to live or die by their own devices?  We have no knowledge of what happened in the Tower before we arrived, whether the Templars fought the abominations and blood mages and were pushed back to the door or whether they booked it from the get go.  The presence of Templar bodies, charmed or possessed Templars, and Cullen seems to suggest they put up at least some resistance before being pushed out of the Tower.

vpacheco1984 wrote...
The only mage who stated that the circle was lost was the little **** who was so brainwashed by the Chantry dogma that she wanted to be killed or made tranquil to absolve her of the sin of existent.

 
And Wynne when she initially refuses to lower the barrier.  Not to mention the fact there are all of 7? survivors.  Wynne, her 3, dude who hid in a closet, Irving, and potentially the two with him, so 8.

vpacheco1984 wrote...
If the circle was lost then how could the warden save it at all?

The same way the Warden and 3 people can march through Denerim, unassisted, when it's overrun by darkspawn.

[cjones91]

DPSSOC wrote...

vpacheco1984 wrote...
They haven't denied it but they haven't mentioned it either. Instead they seem to focus solely as potential danger of mages

 
Because that's what needs to be planned for.  You don't design a building to withstand good weather and pray you never get anything more than a light rain, you design it to withstand the worst weather (plus some if you're smart) so that no matter what happens there's a good chance it'll hold.

If mages are free and there are no problems that's great, but what happens when there are?  How do you mitigate them, how do you ensure acceptable response times and containment, etc.  I've yet to see mage supporters address these with anywhere near the effectiveness of the Circle.  Keep in mind I'm not just talking about abominations or evil mages but accidents, slips of control, and lapses in judgement.

vpacheco1984 wrote...
and state as inevitable fact that all mages will turn to blood magic and/or turn into abmonations at the drop of a hat. If they actually mean that or not I don't know but that is how it seems to me.

That some will is inevitable yes, and the question then is how much damage will they do before they're stopped, and is mage freedom worth it.  Perfect example is alcohol.  Now we know, as a society, that certain negative outcomes can, and inevitably will, result from the consumption of alcohol (drinking and driving accidents, angry drunks getting into fights, etc.).  We also know the negative outcomes of outright banning alcohol and we've decided, as a society, to accept the outcomes of allowing alcohol and mitigating them as best we can.

It's the same with mages, we know what  negative outcomes can, and inevitably will, result from allowing them greater freedom as well as those from locking them up.  It is then a matter of deciding what society is willing to accept.

vpacheco1984 wrote...
I'm asking if I have forgotten about some other barrier had been put up beside the one Wynne had to to do the templars job you know protect the mages. She wouldn't drop the barrier because if she did the mages would have been over run by demons and abominations after they were locked in the tower by the Templars.

You realize Wynne was protecting all of 3 other mages and maybe 3 more children while her barrier was leaving the rest of the mages in the tower to live or die by their own devices?  We have no knowledge of what happened in the Tower before we arrived, whether the Templars fought the abominations and blood mages and were pushed back to the door or whether they booked it from the get go.  The presence of Templar bodies, charmed or possessed Templars, and Cullen seems to suggest they put up at least some resistance before being pushed out of the Tower.

vpacheco1984 wrote...
The only mage who stated that the circle was lost was the little **** who was so brainwashed by the Chantry dogma that she wanted to be killed or made tranquil to absolve her of the sin of existent.

 
And Wynne when she initially refuses to lower the barrier.  Not to mention the fact there are all of 7? survivors.  Wynne, her 3, dude who hid in a closet, Irving, and potentially the two with him, so 8.

vpacheco1984 wrote...
If the circle was lost then how could the warden save it at all?

The same way the Warden and 3 people can march through Denerim, unassisted, when it's overrun by darkspawn.

That's why I suggest the templars start recruiting from the populace of Thedas so that there is a group of templars in every town or village.If a mage wants to live outside the Circle they must agree to have a templar escort who will then lead them to one of the templar filled villages,the mage gets to live in a town or village with the templars there to stop them if they decide to use their magic to commit crimes.

Also some of the mages were still alive but could'nt get through the barrier like or Orwain and Godwin so I'm there would be more survivors if Wynne knew they were nearby.

[vpacheco1984]

[quote]DPSSOC wrote...

[quote]vpacheco1984 wrote...
They haven't denied it but they haven't mentioned it either. Instead they seem to focus solely as potential danger of mages[/quote]
 
Because that's what needs to be planned for.  You don't design a building to withstand good weather and pray you never get anything more than a light rain, you design it to withstand the worst weather (plus some if you're smart) so that no matter what happens there's a good chance it'll hold.

If mages are free and there are no problems that's great, but what happens when there are?  How do you mitigate them, how do you ensure acceptable response times and containment, etc.  I've yet to see mage supporters address these with anywhere near the effectiveness of the Circle.  Keep in mind I'm not just talking about abominations or evil mages but accidents, slips of control, and lapses in judgement.
[/quote]

That's why they should be TRAINED how to properly use their magic and failsafes should be put into place in case of accidents, slips of control and lapses in judgement happen. Also mage supporters have addressed these issues over and over again but templar supporters ignore them time and time again. Good logical plans and you ignore them, such as templars stationed in towns were mages live, mages having to check in with said templars, desiganted areas for different kinds of magics, and a whole host of other suggestions that could work better then current circle system.

[quote]vpacheco1984 wrote...
and state as inevitable fact that all mages will turn to blood magic and/or turn into abmonations at the drop of a hat. If they actually mean that or not I don't know but that is how it seems to me.
[/quote]

[quote] DPSSOC wrote...
That some will is inevitable yes, and the question then is how much damage will they do before they're stopped, and is mage freedom worth it.  Perfect example is alcohol.  Now we know, as a society, that certain negative outcomes can, and inevitably will, result from the consumption of alcohol (drinking and driving accidents, angry drunks getting into fights, etc.).  We also know the negative outcomes of outright banning alcohol and we've decided, as a society, to accept the outcomes of allowing alcohol and mitigating them as best we can.

It's the same with mages, we know what  negative outcomes can, and inevitably will, result from allowing them greater freedom as well as those from locking them up.  It is then a matter of deciding what society is willing to accept.
[/quote]

I'm a little surprised you said some consider most templar supporters say that all mages will do that.

Prohibition was a massive failure. It started wars between gangs, got a lot of innocent people killed in cross fire. People died from the moonshine because it was poisonous. Not to mention the rampant corruption it caused in law enforcement and politics. Yes we have allowed people to drink and mitigate as best as we can. 

We all ready know that locking them up and throwing away the key for being born what they are doesn't work something else needs to be done. You should consider this mages would probably police themselves better then templars could and would want to as well considering that the actions of one tends to cause people to blame the entier mage population. 

[quote]vpacheco1984 wrote...
I'm asking if I have forgotten about some other barrier had been put up beside the one Wynne had to to do the templars job you know protect the mages. She wouldn't drop the barrier because if she did the mages would have been over run by demons and abominations after they were locked in the tower by the Templars.[/quote]

[qoute]DPSSOC wrote...
You realize Wynne was protecting all of 3 other mages and maybe 3 more children while her barrier was leaving the rest of the mages in the tower to live or die by their own devices?  We have no knowledge of what happened in the Tower before we arrived, whether the Templars fought the abominations and blood mages and were pushed back to the door or whether they booked it from the get go.  The presence of Templar bodies, charmed or possessed Templars, and Cullen seems to suggest they put up at least some resistance before being pushed out of the Tower.
[/qoute]

For all we know that the mages are the ones who killed the abominations and blood mages while the templars ran and the ones who were still inside the tower just weren't fast enough before the sealed the tower. 

Wynne would have lowered the barrier if anyone came to it she even told Owen that when we find him in the storage room. She was protecting who she could find. How do we know that there weren't other mages who had holded themselves up in different parts of the tower after their protecters abondon them to wait for premission to kill them all.

[quote]vpacheco1984 wrote...
The only mage who stated that the circle was lost was the little **** who was so brainwashed by the Chantry dogma that she wanted to be killed or made tranquil to absolve her of the sin of existent.[/quote]

[qoute]DPSSOC wrote...
And Wynne when she initially refuses to lower the barrier.  Not to mention the fact there are all of 7? survivors.  Wynne, her 3, dude who hid in a closet, Irving, and potentially the two with him, so 8.
[/qoute]

Then why were there more mages then eight mages in Denerim? Also if you saved Connor, if I'm remembering correctly, it took like four or five mages to do the ritual if you use mages and lyrium. So what did the mages clone themselves? Or maybe pop out of the earth like darkspawn? No there was more then eight mages saved in the circle. They had to protect themselves after they were left for dead by the templars. 

Oh yeah you're also forgetting the two mages you saved in the fade when you were fighting your way to the sloth demon. 


[quote]vpacheco1984 wrote...
If the circle was lost then how could the warden save it at all?[/quote]

[qoute]DPSSOC wrote...
The same way the Warden and 3 people can march through Denerim, unassisted, when it's overrun by darkspawn.[/quote]

Wrong. The Warden had several armies behind him/her and can call on his/her allies you know the elves/werewolves, mages/templars, Redclif soliders, and the dwarves. So the warden wasn't alone and even when s/he faces the arch-demon the warden can call his/her allies to help. So they weren't unassisted.

Modifié par vpacheco1984, 13 juillet 2013 - 12:53 .