1656 réponses à ce sujet

[cjones91]

Ieldra2 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

addiction21 wrote...
Annulment is not there because "one went bad" It is there as a last resort

The ghosts of the Dairsmuid Circle beg to differ. By all known accounts, that wasn't a last resorst against rampant destruction caused by abominations, that was a war of extinction against a group that admittedly violated the rules, but lived peacefully and didn't cause any damage.

They forcefully resisted the Templars who arrived there to try and normalize the Circle... Only once it became clear that the Circle couldn't be normalized, was the Annulment called. At that time, the Circle was in open rebellion, so it was practically an act of war.

An act of war which wouldn't have happened had the templars left the Circle alone. I guess they couldn't leave things alone, since it would've destabilized the whole system, but still the templars were the aggressors here. They fought to continue their oppression of mages instead of giving them the chance to prove that the permanent internment was unnecessary.

While I'm at it, here's another little tidbit I just became aware of: the war of the Chantry against Tevinter had nothing to do with magic at first. According to Leliana's account of the story in DAO, they acted because the Maker had promised the faithful to return if everyone returned to worship him. It was a war of religious conquest and expansion, a first-degree aggression. The "problem of magic" was just a convenient excuse.

Actually the Chantry was'nt founded until several hundred years after Andraste's war against Tevinter,by then they were just a cult that happened to gain the favor of Emperor Drakon.I'm of the opinion that the Chantry wanted total control of all mages so they made up a story that they could use to demonize every single mage.

I'm sure if Andraste was alive she will be very upset that a group that made a religion with her as their prophet would enslave others after fighting to free slaves herself.

[vpacheco1984]

vpacheco1984 wrote...
They haven't denied it but they haven't mentioned it either. Instead they seem to focus solely as potential danger of mages

 

DPSSCO wrote...
Because that's what needs to be planned for.  You don't design a building to withstand good weather and pray you never get anything more than a light rain, you design it to withstand the worst weather (plus some if you're smart) so that no matter what happens there's a good chance it'll hold.

If mages are free and there are no problems that's great, but what happens when there are?  How do you mitigate them, how do you ensure acceptable response times and containment, etc.  I've yet to see mage supporters address these with anywhere near the effectiveness of the Circle.  Keep in mind I'm not just talking about abominations or evil mages but accidents, slips of control, and lapses in judgement.

That's why they should be TRAINED how to properly use their magic and failsafes should be put into place in case of accidents, slips of control and lapses in judgement happen. Also mage supporters have addressed these issues over and over again but templar supporters ignore them time and time again. Good logical plans and you ignore them, such as templars stationed in towns were mages live, mages having to check in with said templars, desiganted areas for different kinds of magics, and a whole host of other suggestions that could work better then current circle system.

vpacheco1984 wrote...
and state as inevitable fact that all mages will turn to blood magic and/or turn into abmonations at the drop of a hat. If they actually mean that or not I don't know but that is how it seems to me.

DPSSOC wrote...
That some will is inevitable yes, and the question then is how much damage will they do before they're stopped, and is mage freedom worth it.  Perfect example is alcohol.  Now we know, as a society, that certain negative outcomes can, and inevitably will, result from the consumption of alcohol (drinking and driving accidents, angry drunks getting into fights, etc.).  We also know the negative outcomes of outright banning alcohol and we've decided, as a society, to accept the outcomes of allowing alcohol and mitigating them as best we can.

It's the same with mages, we know what  negative outcomes can, and inevitably will, result from allowing them greater freedom as well as those from locking them up.  It is then a matter of deciding what society is willing to accept.

I'm a little surprised you said some consider most templar supporters say that all mages will do that.

Prohibition was a massive failure. It started wars between gangs, got a lot of innocent people killed in cross fire. People died from the moonshine because it was poisonous. Not to mention the rampant corruption it caused in law enforcement and politics. Yes we have allowed people to drink and mitigate as best as we can. 

We all ready know that locking them up and throwing away the key for being born what they are doesn't work something else needs to be done. You should consider this mages would probably police themselves better then templars could and would want to as well considering that the actions of one tends to cause people to blame the entier mage population. 

vpacheco1984 wrote...
I'm asking if I have forgotten about some other barrier had been put up beside the one Wynne had to to do the templars job you know protect the mages. She wouldn't drop the barrier because if she did the mages would have been over run by demons and abominations after they were locked in the tower by the Templars.

DPSSOC wrote...
You realize Wynne was protecting all of 3 other mages and maybe 3 more children while her barrier was leaving the rest of the mages in the tower to live or die by their own devices?  We have no knowledge of what happened in the Tower before we arrived, whether the Templars fought the abominations and blood mages and were pushed back to the door or whether they booked it from the get go.  The presence of Templar bodies, charmed or possessed Templars, and Cullen seems to suggest they put up at least some resistance before being pushed out of the Tower.

For all we know that the mages are the ones who killed the abominations and blood mages while the templars ran and the ones who were still inside the tower just weren't fast enough before the sealed the tower. 

Wynne would have lowered the barrier if anyone came to it she even told Owen that when we find him in the storage room. She was protecting who she could find. How do we know that there weren't other mages who had holded themselves up in different parts of the tower after their protecters abondon them to wait for premission to kill them all.

vpacheco1984 wrote...
The only mage who stated that the circle was lost was the little **** who was so brainwashed by the Chantry dogma that she wanted to be killed or made tranquil to absolve her of the sin of existent.

DPSSOC wrote...
And Wynne when she initially refuses to lower the barrier.  Not to mention the fact there are all of 7? survivors.  Wynne, her 3, dude who hid in a closet, Irving, and potentially the two with him, so 8.

Then why were there more mages then eight mages in Denerim? Also if you saved Connor, if I'm remembering correctly, it took like four or five mages to do the ritual if you use mages and lyrium. So what did the mages clone themselves? Or maybe pop out of the earth like darkspawn? No there was more then eight mages saved in the circle. They had to protect themselves after they were left for dead by the templars. 

Oh yeah you're also forgetting the two mages you saved in the fade when you were fighting your way to the sloth demon. 

vpacheco1984 wrote...
If the circle was lost then how could the warden save it at all?

DPSSOC wrote...
The same way the Warden and 3 people can march through Denerim, unassisted, when it's overrun by darkspawn.

Wrong. The Warden had several armies behind him/her and can call on his/her allies you know the elves/werewolves, mages/templars, Redclif soliders, and the dwarves. So the warden wasn't alone and even when s/he faces the arch-demon the warden can call his/her allies to help. So they weren't unassisted.

Modifié par vpacheco1984, 13 juillet 2013 - 12:59 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

cjones91 wrote...
Magic can also be used for good just like anything else.

So can nuclear power.
Yet I don't recall seeing nuclear powered cars as a realistic or safe prospect.

[Lotion Soronarr]

cjones91 wrote...
That's why I suggest the templars start recruiting from the populace of Thedas so that there is a group of templars in every town or village.If a mage wants to live outside the Circle they must agree to have a templar escort who will then lead them to one of the templar filled villages,the mage gets to live in a town or village with the templars there to stop them if they decide to use their magic to commit crimes.

Just how many templars would that require? Who would pay them? Feed them?
Wouldn't mages still be restricted? Except it's not a circle tower, it's a village?

Seems to me you are not seeing the practical/logistics concerns.

[cjones91]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

cjones91 wrote...
That's why I suggest the templars start recruiting from the populace of Thedas so that there is a group of templars in every town or village.If a mage wants to live outside the Circle they must agree to have a templar escort who will then lead them to one of the templar filled villages,the mage gets to live in a town or village with the templars there to stop them if they decide to use their magic to commit crimes.

Just how many templars would that require? Who would pay them? Feed them?
Wouldn't mages still be restricted? Except it's not a circle tower, it's a village?

Seems to me you are not seeing the practical/logistics concerns.

I know it will be impractical to some degree but I feel the benefits would outweigh the costs.Think about it instead of getting there too late to stop a rampaging abomination the templars would have a force in every town to better respond to threats.This idea benefits the mages also because they can live with families while still being watched for any signs of trouble.

As for how many templars would be require for every town/village...I'm thinking around atleast three dozen highly trained templars and since they will be recruiting capable men and women they will be able to get training and funds from the local chantry which will be in the role of providing oversight for both the mages and templars.

I know my idea is  somewhat impractical but I'm just throwing it out there to see if people like it.

Modifié par cjones91, 13 juillet 2013 - 02:28 .

[Ieldra]

cjones91 wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

addiction21 wrote...
Annulment is not there because "one went bad" It is there as a last resort

The ghosts of the Dairsmuid Circle beg to differ. By all known accounts, that wasn't a last resorst against rampant destruction caused by abominations, that was a war of extinction against a group that admittedly violated the rules, but lived peacefully and didn't cause any damage.

They forcefully resisted the Templars who arrived there to try and normalize the Circle... Only once it became clear that the Circle couldn't be normalized, was the Annulment called. At that time, the Circle was in open rebellion, so it was practically an act of war.

An act of war which wouldn't have happened had the templars left the Circle alone. I guess they couldn't leave things alone, since it would've destabilized the whole system, but still the templars were the aggressors here. They fought to continue their oppression of mages instead of giving them the chance to prove that the permanent internment was unnecessary.

While I'm at it, here's another little tidbit I just became aware of: the war of the Chantry against Tevinter had nothing to do with magic at first. According to Leliana's account of the story in DAO, they acted because the Maker had promised the faithful to return if everyone returned to worship him. It was a war of religious conquest and expansion, a first-degree aggression. The "problem of magic" was just a convenient excuse.

Actually the Chantry was'nt founded until several hundred years after Andraste's war against Tevinter,by then they were just a cult that happened to gain the favor of Emperor Drakon.

I was imprecise. Of course it was the cult that eventually became the Chantry.

I'm of the opinion that the Chantry wanted total control of all mages so they made up a story that they could use to demonize every single mage.

As DA2 Legacy shows, there is some truth to the story of the Golden City, Black City or whatever it really is or was, but I agree the Chantry used to make mages a convenient scapegoat so they could take control of all magic. After all, it's not as if templars didn't use magic themselves. "It doesn't count because it only works on mages" doesn't count. Mages have such spells as well.

I'm sure if Andraste was alive she will be very upset that a group that made a religion with her as their prophet would enslave others after fighting to free slaves herself.

Yeah. The elves and the mages. Still, Andraste's war was one of conquest and religious expansion. Freeing the slaves was a convenient benefit, but if you believe the story as told by Leliana it was just a side effect, and forcing the elves to worship the maker would have been completely compatible with the goal of converting the world to the cult of the Maker.

[cjones91]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

cjones91 wrote...
Magic can also be used for good just like anything else.

So can nuclear power.
Yet I don't recall seeing nuclear powered cars as a realistic or safe prospect.

  You never know...there might be cars in the future that run on a infinite supply of nuclear energy.I see magic as something that can be so useful but it must be handled  by people who know what they are doing.

[cjones91]

Ieldra2 wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

addiction21 wrote...
Annulment is not there because "one went bad" It is there as a last resort

The ghosts of the Dairsmuid Circle beg to differ. By all known accounts, that wasn't a last resorst against rampant destruction caused by abominations, that was a war of extinction against a group that admittedly violated the rules, but lived peacefully and didn't cause any damage.

They forcefully resisted the Templars who arrived there to try and normalize the Circle... Only once it became clear that the Circle couldn't be normalized, was the Annulment called. At that time, the Circle was in open rebellion, so it was practically an act of war.

An act of war which wouldn't have happened had the templars left the Circle alone. I guess they couldn't leave things alone, since it would've destabilized the whole system, but still the templars were the aggressors here. They fought to continue their oppression of mages instead of giving them the chance to prove that the permanent internment was unnecessary.

While I'm at it, here's another little tidbit I just became aware of: the war of the Chantry against Tevinter had nothing to do with magic at first. According to Leliana's account of the story in DAO, they acted because the Maker had promised the faithful to return if everyone returned to worship him. It was a war of religious conquest and expansion, a first-degree aggression. The "problem of magic" was just a convenient excuse.

Actually the Chantry was'nt founded until several hundred years after Andraste's war against Tevinter,by then they were just a cult that happened to gain the favor of Emperor Drakon.

I was imprecise. Of course it was the cult that eventually became the Chantry.

I'm of the opinion that the Chantry wanted total control of all mages so they made up a story that they could use to demonize every single mage.

As DA2 Legacy shows, there is some truth to the story of the Golden City, Black City or whatever it really is or was, but I agree the Chantry used to make mages a convenient scapegoat so they could take control of all magic. After all, it's not as if templars didn't use magic themselves. "It doesn't count because it only works on mages" doesn't count. Mages have such spells as well.

I'm sure if Andraste was alive she will be very upset that a group that made a religion with her as their prophet would enslave others after fighting to free slaves herself.

Yeah. The elves and the mages. Still, Andraste's war was one of conquest and religious expansion. Freeing the slaves was a convenient benefit, but if you believe the story as told by Leliana it was just a side effect, and forcing the elves to worship the maker would have been completely compatible with the goal of converting the world to the cult of the Maker.

I'm not even sure if the city was even golden.If what Corypheus said is anything to go by Dumat tricked the Ancient Magisters into releasing the taint by promising them  power the city allegedly contained.

As for the elves...I agree that they would have been converted regardless but I believe they would have been treated far more better than they are now.

[Lotion Soronarr]

cjones91 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

cjones91 wrote...
Magic can also be used for good just like anything else.

So can nuclear power.
Yet I don't recall seeing nuclear powered cars as a realistic or safe prospect.

  You never know...there might be cars in the future that run on a infinite supply of nuclear energy.I see magic as something that can be so useful but it must be handled  by people who know what they are doing.

Not ony is "infinite supply" impossible, but also nuclear cars would be the STUPIDEST idea in the history of stuipid ideas.
One car crash you have a mini Chernobyl.

[Lotion Soronarr]

As DA2 Legacy shows, there is some truth to the story of the Golden City, Black City or whatever it really is or was, but I agree the Chantry used to make mages a convenient scapegoat so they could take control of all magic. After all, it's not as if templars didn't use magic themselves. "It doesn't count because it only works on mages" doesn't count. Mages have such spells as well.

Templars are completely different.
They are not at risk of possesion like mages are, they cannot use blood magic or summon demons, and what pwoers they do have are practicly all either protection (resistances, barriers) or dispelling.

[cjones91]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

As DA2 Legacy shows, there is some truth to the story of the Golden City, Black City or whatever it really is or was, but I agree the Chantry used to make mages a convenient scapegoat so they could take control of all magic. After all, it's not as if templars didn't use magic themselves. "It doesn't count because it only works on mages" doesn't count. Mages have such spells as well.

Templars are completely different.
They are not at risk of possesion like mages are, they cannot use blood magic or summon demons, and what pwoers they do have are practicly all either protection (resistances, barriers) or dispelling.

 Actually templars can be possessed it just takes a while for the demon to possess them,also some templar abilities are offensive like Holy Smite which can deal damage to mages or any creature who uses magical abilities.

[DPSSOC]

[quote]vpacheco1984 wrote...
[quote]DPSSOC wrote...
[quote]vpacheco1984 wrote...
They haven't denied it but they haven't mentioned it either. Instead they seem to focus solely as potential danger of mages[/quote]
 
Because that's what needs to be planned for.  You don't design a building to withstand good weather and pray you never get anything more than a light rain, you design it to withstand the worst weather (plus some if you're smart) so that no matter what happens there's a good chance it'll hold.

If mages are free and there are no problems that's great, but what happens when there are?  How do you mitigate them, how do you ensure acceptable response times and containment, etc.  I've yet to see mage supporters address these with anywhere near the effectiveness of the Circle.  Keep in mind I'm not just talking about abominations or evil mages but accidents, slips of control, and lapses in judgement.
[/quote]

That's why they should be TRAINED how to properly use their magic and failsafes should be put into place in case of accidents, slips of control and lapses in judgement happen.[/quote]
 
Training is insufficient.  I'm trained to swim it doesn't mean I can't drown, being trained in the use of a firearm doesn't mean you'll never have an accident.  What kind of fail safes?  It isn't really feasible to have Templars stationed in every town and village which means there are going to be places that will have to wait days if not weeks for anyone to figure out something's wrong let alone send help.  That's why I've always been against Templars as a reactive force, the technology of the world they live in doesn't allow them to react fast enough to do anything but nod and say, "Yeah this was probably a mage."

[quote]vpacheco1984 wrote...
Also mage supporters have addressed these issues over and over again but templar supporters ignore them time and time again. Good logical plans and you ignore them, such as templars stationed in towns were mages live, mages having to check in with said templars, desiganted areas for different kinds of magics, and a whole host of other suggestions that could work better then current circle system.[/quote]

No they can't because the Circle system allows for a response time of practically zero in most cases.  Mage loses control of a spell there is literally somebody 3 feet away that can do something about it.  No other system can match that.

[quote]vpacheco1984 wrote...
[quote] DPSSOC wrote...
[quote]vpacheco1984 wrote...
and state as inevitable fact that all mages will turn to blood magic and/or turn into abmonations at the drop of a hat. If they actually mean that or not I don't know but that is how it seems to me.
[/quote]

That some will is inevitable yes, and the question then is how much damage will they do before they're stopped, and is mage freedom worth it.  Perfect example is alcohol.  Now we know, as a society, that certain negative outcomes can, and inevitably will, result from the consumption of alcohol (drinking and driving accidents, angry drunks getting into fights, etc.).  We also know the negative outcomes of outright banning alcohol and we've decided, as a society, to accept the outcomes of allowing alcohol and mitigating them as best we can.

It's the same with mages, we know what  negative outcomes can, and inevitably will, result from allowing them greater freedom as well as those from locking them up.  It is then a matter of deciding what society is willing to accept.
[/quote]

I'm a little surprised you said some consider most templar supporters say that all mages will do that.

Prohibition was a massive failure. It started wars between gangs, got a lot of innocent people killed in cross fire. People died from the moonshine because it was poisonous. Not to mention the rampant corruption it caused in law enforcement and politics. Yes we have allowed people to drink and mitigate as best as we can. 

We all ready know that locking them up and throwing away the key for being born what they are doesn't work something else needs to be done.[/quote]
 
It worked for the better part of 1000 years.  Regardless also know that granting them freedom doesn't work either, so like I said it becomes a societal choice of what people in power are willing to accept.  The marginalization of mages for the good of mundanes, or the marginalization of mundanes for the good of the mages.

[quote]vpacheco1984 wrote...
You should consider this mages would probably police themselves better then templars could and would want to as well considering that the actions of one tends to cause people to blame the entier mage population.[/quote]

Except they've shown that they won't police themselves.  Orsino knew what Quentin was doing and he did nothing.  For the entirety of Act 3 (and we can assume some time before) he does worse than nothing because he actively works against outside attempts to police mages.  Not one mage of conscience stepped up and said maybe we've gone too far when Thrask's coup resorted to blood magic and kidnapping, or when Grace was killing the one Templar who'd given them a chance. 

[quote]vpacheco1984 wrote...
[quote]DPSSOC wrote...
[quote]vpacheco1984 wrote...
If the circle was lost then how could the warden save it at all?[/quote]

The same way the Warden and 3 people can march through Denerim, unassisted, when it's overrun by darkspawn.[/quote]

Wrong. The Warden had several armies behind him/her and can call on his/her allies you know the elves/werewolves, mages/templars, Redclif soliders, and the dwarves. So the warden wasn't alone and even when s/he faces the arch-demon the warden can call his/her allies to help. So they weren't unassisted.
[/quote]

Except they can be.  You can march through without ever calling on your allies and you never see any of them fighting in the background.  The Warden can save the Circle for the same reason he and 3 people can leave the armies behind, liberate Denerim, and slay the Archdemon.

[Lotion Soronarr]

cjones91 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Templars are completely different.
They are not at risk of possesion like mages are, they cannot use blood magic or summon demons, and what pwoers they do have are practicly all either protection (resistances, barriers) or dispelling.

 Actually templars can be possessed it just takes a while for the demon to possess them,also some templar abilities are offensive like Holy Smite which can deal damage to mages or any creature who uses magical abilities.

No, they are not the same.
Mages are actively hunted by demons. Templars aren't.
Templars are highly resistant to magic and possesion. A possesed templar is considered to be almost impossible, and when it happened in DA2 (under EXTREEME circumstances), everyone was surprised.

[Ieldra]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

As DA2 Legacy shows, there is some truth to the story of the Golden City, Black City or whatever it really is or was, but I agree the Chantry used to make mages a convenient scapegoat so they could take control of all magic. After all, it's not as if templars didn't use magic themselves. "It doesn't count because it only works on mages" doesn't count. Mages have such spells as well.

Templars are completely different.
They are not at risk of possesion like mages are, they cannot use blood magic or summon demons, and what pwoers they do have are practicly all either protection (resistances, barriers) or dispelling.

Holy Smite begs to differ.

Also, you don't know if templars are prone to possession. They use lyrium to enhance their power, so it's magic, and if it's magic, then they shine in the Fade like mages do. I wonder if the Chantry hides their possessed templars better, or if they have some special training they deny the mages so that they can keep justifying their system of oppression.

[cjones91]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Templars are completely different.
They are not at risk of possesion like mages are, they cannot use blood magic or summon demons, and what pwoers they do have are practicly all either protection (resistances, barriers) or dispelling.

 Actually templars can be possessed it just takes a while for the demon to possess them,also some templar abilities are offensive like Holy Smite which can deal damage to mages or any creature who uses magical abilities.

No, they are not the same.
Mages are actively hunted by demons. Templars aren't.
Templars are highly resistant to magic and possesion. A possesed templar is considered to be almost impossible, and when it happened in DA2 (under EXTREEME circumstances), everyone was surprised.

But they can be possessed and fall under the influence of demons as shown during the Broken Circle quest,the difference being that they can resist for a longer period of time than mages could.

[vpacheco1984]

[quote]DPSSOC wrote...

[quote]vpacheco1984 wrote...
[quote]DPSSOC wrote...
[quote]vpacheco1984 wrote...
They haven't denied it but they haven't mentioned it either. Instead they seem to focus solely as potential danger of mages[/quote]
 
Because that's what needs to be planned for.  You don't design a building to withstand good weather and pray you never get anything more than a light rain, you design it to withstand the worst weather (plus some if you're smart) so that no matter what happens there's a good chance it'll hold.

If mages are free and there are no problems that's great, but what happens when there are?  How do you mitigate them, how do you ensure acceptable response times and containment, etc.  I've yet to see mage supporters address these with anywhere near the effectiveness of the Circle.  Keep in mind I'm not just talking about abominations or evil mages but accidents, slips of control, and lapses in judgement.
[/quote]

That's why they should be TRAINED how to properly use their magic and failsafes should be put into place in case of accidents, slips of control and lapses in judgement happen.[/quote]
 
Training is insufficient.  I'm trained to swim it doesn't mean I can't drown, being trained in the use of a firearm doesn't mean you'll never have an accident.  What kind of fail safes?  It isn't really feasible to have Templars stationed in every town and village which means there are going to be places that will have to wait days if not weeks for anyone to figure out something's wrong let alone send help.  That's why I've always been against Templars as a reactive force, the technology of the world they live in doesn't allow them to react fast enough to do anything but nod and say, "Yeah this was probably a mage."[/quote]

Training is more th sufficient. Even in the circle there aren't as many fail safes as you seem to think there are. If there was then there would never be blood mage or abomintions. Beside if the templars lived beside the mages and actually knew them as people not a abomonation waiting to happen well then they would be able to see the difference in the mages behavoir. You've never lived in a small town or village have you? Listen in a small community you can't fart without everyone knowing before you do. 

[quote]vpacheco1984 wrote...
Also mage supporters have addressed these issues over and over again but templar supporters ignore them time and time again. Good logical plans and you ignore them, such as templars stationed in towns were mages live, mages having to check in with said templars, desiganted areas for different kinds of magics, and a whole host of other suggestions that could work better then current circle system.[/quote]
[quote]DPSSOC wrote...
No they can't because the Circle system allows for a response time of practically zero in most cases.  Mage loses control of a spell there is literally somebody 3 feet away that can do something about it.  No other system can match that.
[/quote]

There isn't practically zero response time in the circle system. If there was then there Ferelden ever whould ahve happened.

[quote]vpacheco1984 wrote...
[quote] DPSSOC wrote...
[quote]vpacheco1984 wrote...
and state as inevitable fact that all mages will turn to blood magic and/or turn into abmonations at the drop of a hat. If they actually mean that or not I don't know but that is how it seems to me.
[/quote]

That some will is inevitable yes, and the question then is how much damage will they do before they're stopped, and is mage freedom worth it.  Perfect example is alcohol.  Now we know, as a society, that certain negative outcomes can, and inevitably will, result from the consumption of alcohol (drinking and driving accidents, angry drunks getting into fights, etc.).  We also know the negative outcomes of outright banning alcohol and we've decided, as a society, to accept the outcomes of allowing alcohol and mitigating them as best we can.

It's the same with mages, we know what  negative outcomes can, and inevitably will, result from allowing them greater freedom as well as those from locking them up.  It is then a matter of deciding what society is willing to accept.
[/quote]

I'm a little surprised you said some consider most templar supporters say that all mages will do that.

Prohibition was a massive failure. It started wars between gangs, got a lot of innocent people killed in cross fire. People died from the moonshine because it was poisonous. Not to mention the rampant corruption it caused in law enforcement and politics. Yes we have allowed people to drink and mitigate as best as we can. 

We all ready know that locking them up and throwing away the key for being born what they are doesn't work something else needs to be done.[/quote]
[quote] DSSPOC wrote...
It worked for the better part of 1000 years.  Regardless also know that granting them freedom doesn't work either, so like I said it becomes a societal choice of what people in power are willing to accept.  The marginalization of mages for the good of mundanes, or the marginalization of mundanes for the good of the mages.
[/quote]

If it worked so well then they wouldn't be rebellion. There is a way for mages and mundane to live together peacefully without treating either one like monster in the making. But you are to closed minded to see that. Which makes you a truly sad indiviual.
[quote]vpacheco1984 wrote...
You should consider this mages would probably police themselves better then templars could and would want to as well considering that the actions of one tends to cause people to blame the entier mage population.[/quote]
[quote]DPSSOC wrote...
Except they've shown that they won't police themselves.  Orsino knew what Quentin was doing and he did nothing.  For the entirety of Act 3 (and we can assume some time before) he does worse than nothing because he actively works against outside attempts to police mages.  Not one mage of conscience stepped up and said maybe we've gone too far when Thrask's coup resorted to blood magic and kidnapping, or when Grace was killing the one Templar who'd given them a chance. 
[/quote]

Orsion was worried about the whole circle. You do know what Meredith would have done if Orsino had gone to her about Quentin. She would killed him on the spot then had the circle annule while leaving Quentin out in Kirkwall to kill to his little insane hearts content. It has nothing to do with policing mages it had, as stated, to do with getting every man, woman and child in the circle killed for the actions of one man. If there was a knight-commander who wasn't bat**** crazy and was looking for a reason to kill all mages then he would have turned Quentin in. After all he when he realized that what Quentin was doing was evil he stopped communicationg with him. As for Thrask's group we don't know if any of the mages steeped up and said anything or we've gone to far. We didn't see that, but you have to remember most of them have been conditioned to do what templars say without question. Grace well she was driven insane by the lose of her lover and the abuse she no doubt suffered in the circle. If you take the time out to speak with her in the Gallows you learn that Meredith had all their staves and tomes taken from them which was taking the only way mages had to protect themselves from demons influcene. She was angry, hurt and crazy and need someone to blame and she chose the easiest target. I'm not making excuses for her and the others but you have to take into consideration what drove them to their actions.

[quote]vpacheco1984 wrote...
[quote]DPSSOC wrote...
[quote]vpacheco1984 wrote...
If the circle was lost then how could the warden save it at all?[/quote]

The same way the Warden and 3 people can march through Denerim, unassisted, when it's overrun by darkspawn.[/quote]

Wrong. The Warden had several armies behind him/her and can call on his/her allies you know the elves/werewolves, mages/templars, Redclif soliders, and the dwarves. So the warden wasn't alone and even when s/he faces the arch-demon the warden can call his/her allies to help. So they weren't unassisted.
[/quote]

Except they can be.  You can march through without ever calling on your allies and you never see any of them fighting in the background.  The Warden can save the Circle for the same reason he and 3 people can leave the armies behind, liberate Denerim, and slay the Archdemon.[/quote
 
Then you are a special kind of stupid. 

But I already knew that given that you are so narrow minded and calling a system that is so broken and wrong a good idea. I'm done with you we will just keep going in circles you keep saying slavery, rape, torture and murder is okay as long as the victim are mages and only wrong if it happens to mundane.

[DPSSOC]

[quote]vpacheco1984 wrote...
[quote]DPSSOC wrote... 
Training is insufficient.  I'm trained to swim it doesn't mean I can't drown, being trained in the use of a firearm doesn't mean you'll never have an accident.  What kind of fail safes?  It isn't really feasible to have Templars stationed in every town and village which means there are going to be places that will have to wait days if not weeks for anyone to figure out something's wrong let alone send help.  That's why I've always been against Templars as a reactive force, the technology of the world they live in doesn't allow them to react fast enough to do anything but nod and say, "Yeah this was probably a mage."[/quote]

Training is more th sufficient. Even in the circle there aren't as many fail safes as you seem to think there are. If there was then there would never be blood mage or abomintions.[/quote]
 
How do you figure?  Blood mages can learn in secret and abominations can happen in moments, however the Circle allows for a rapid response to these events because the offending party is surrounded by Templars 24/7

[quote]vpacheco1984 wrote...
Beside if the templars lived beside the mages and actually knew them as people not a abomonation waiting to happen well then they would be able to see the difference in the mages behavoir. You've never lived in a small town or village have you? Listen in a small community you can't fart without everyone knowing before you do.[/quote]

Define what you mean by small.  I live in a city of about 200,000 people I wouldn't think of that as small town but I've met those who do.  And I agree the system would be better if mages and Templars treated one another as people. 

[quote]vpacheco1984 wrote...
[quote]DPSSOC wrote...
No they can't because the Circle system allows for a response time of practically zero in most cases.  Mage loses control of a spell there is literally somebody 3 feet away that can do something about it.  No other system can match that.
[/quote]

There isn't practically zero response time in the circle system. If there was then there Ferelden ever whould ahve happened.[/quote]

Yes there is.  The inability of the Templars to do anything about Fereldan doesn't negate the fact that they were already on scene when things went wrong.  You want to argue that the Templars could be more effective I'll agree, but you're never going to get a better response time than having mages and Templars living in the same building.

[quote]vpacheco1984 wrote...
[quote] DSSPOC wrote...
It worked for the better part of 1000 years.  Regardless also know that granting them freedom doesn't work either, so like I said it becomes a societal choice of what people in power are willing to accept.  The marginalization of mages for the good of mundanes, or the marginalization of mundanes for the good of the mages.
[/quote]

If it worked so well then they wouldn't be rebellion.[/quote]
 
Whether or not a system works is not determined by whether or not people like it.  Quarantines work but I doubt you'll find one that never runs into resistance.  The Circle system was intended to allow a place for mages to freely practice their magic without endangering the general populace, it did that.

[quote]vpacheco1984 wrote...
There is a way for mages and mundane to live together peacefully without treating either one like monster in the making. But you are to closed minded to see that. Which makes you a truly sad indiviual.[/quote]

Take a good hard look at the world (DA or IRL), mundanes can't live together peacefully with one another you really think giving some of them super powers is going to smooth things over?

[quote]vpacheco1984 wrote...
[quote]DPSSOC wrote...
Except they've shown that they won't police themselves.  Orsino knew what Quentin was doing and he did nothing.  For the entirety of Act 3 (and we can assume some time before) he does worse than nothing because he actively works against outside attempts to police mages.  Not one mage of conscience stepped up and said maybe we've gone too far when Thrask's coup resorted to blood magic and kidnapping, or when Grace was killing the one Templar who'd given them a chance. 
[/quote]

Orsion was worried about the whole circle. You do know what Meredith would have done if Orsino had gone to her about Quentin. She would killed him on the spot then had the circle annule while leaving Quentin out in Kirkwall to kill to his little insane hearts content. It has nothing to do with policing mages it had, as stated, to do with getting every man, woman and child in the circle killed for the actions of one man.[/quote]
 
In Act III yeah, but Orsino knew about Quentin since at least Act II and probably the beginning of Act I.  She would have punished him certainly but we've no indication that Meredith was at the point of punishing all for the actions of one before Act III.

[quote]vpacheco1984 wrote...
As for Thrask's group we don't know if any of the mages steeped up and said anything or we've gone to far. We didn't see that, but you have to remember most of them have been conditioned to do what templars say without question. Grace well she was driven insane by the lose of her lover and the abuse she no doubt suffered in the circle. If you take the time out to speak with her in the Gallows you learn that Meredith had all their staves and tomes taken from them which was taking the only way mages had to protect themselves from demons influcene. She was angry, hurt and crazy and need someone to blame and she chose the easiest target. I'm not making excuses for her and the others but you have to take into consideration what drove them to their actions.[/quote]

I'm willing to give you that we don't know none of the mages never said, "We're going too far."  We do however know that they sat by and watched Grace murder Thrask, and then try to kill Hawke, without lifting a finger and many actually joining in.  Yeah these are people we can trust to keep their own in line .

[quote]vpacheco1984 wrote...
[quote]DPSSOC wrote...
Except they can be.  You can march through without ever calling on your allies and you never see any of them fighting in the background.  The Warden can save the Circle for the same reason he and 3 people can leave the armies behind, liberate Denerim, and slay the Archdemon.[/quote]
 
Then you are a special kind of stupid.[/quote]

And you're missing my point.  The Warden can save the Circle and Liberate Denerim with only 3 guys while everyone else is powerless because he/she is the PC in a video game. 

[quote]vpacheco1984 wrote...
But I already knew that given that you are so narrow minded and calling a system that is so broken and wrong a good idea. I'm done with you we will just keep going in circles you keep saying slavery, rape, torture and murder is okay as long as the victim are mages and only wrong if it happens to mundane.
[/quote]

#1 The Circles are not slavery, there is nothing in the Circle system that constitutes slavery unless you apply a loose enough definition that would also include minimum security prison inmates.

Furthermore the rape, torture, and murder are not part of the Circle System, they are abuses that happen within it.  The Circle works, isolating the mages to protect people from their magics while allowing them a place to freely practice, works.  It isn't perfect by any means, abuses do happen, but that's not a designed part of the system.  Saying they are is the equivalent of saying the public school system supports child abuse because a few teachers get away with hitting kids.  Yes there are problems with the system, yes it could stand to be improved, but the system, as designed, works.

[vpacheco1984]

The design doesn't work. Look up the Stanford Prison Experiment.

[kjdhgfiliuhwe]

Mages. Of course you will try to correlate the dangers you pose to that of ordinary people, even if the correlation you provide makes no logical sense. It's like comparing a man with a sword, and a baby with a spoon. One can argue that either could potentially be a danger, but to correlate them as equal in their potential is irrational. When you are in the wrong, emotional arguments are your only recourse. 

If it helps, I take no twisted pleasure at hunting you down and killing you. In fact, it haunts my nights, as I know many of you wish nothing more than to be responsible members of society. But, I grit my teeth and continue to do so until all but a handful of you are put to death. I do this, despite the anguish these deaths cause, because I know the vaguries of men (and women), and the type of power you posess only requires a few irresponsible souls to devestate the world, as we are seeing happen all around us today. 

The argument about the greater good never falls well upon the ears of those who must be sacrificed, so I do not expect you to understand, or accept this. You will, rightly so, fight for your survival. I, and others like me, will fight for humanity's. 

I can not say who will win this fight, though I obviously hope it is me and mine. If killing all but the handful of you that can be easily controlled and used as a weapon was an easy task, the task would not have to be done in the first place. 

I can promise you that if me and mine are the victors in this brutal war, we will ensure that the handful of mages allowed to live in future generations will be brought up completely seperate from humanity. They will as be like animals, tamed to perform as weapons, if needed. No higher sense of self, and no despair at their intrinsic seperation from the rest of society. No grasp of language, no art, no history. It is a gift I promise to you, so that you may die in peaceful knowledge that there is a potential light at the end of the tunnel that is the heavy weight all mages currently face today. 

[Lotion Soronarr]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Templars are completely different.
They are not at risk of possesion like mages are, they cannot use blood magic or summon demons, and what pwoers they do have are practicly all either protection (resistances, barriers) or dispelling.

Holy Smite begs to differ.

Also, you don't know if templars are prone to possession. They use lyrium to enhance their power, so it's magic, and if it's magic, then they shine in the Fade like mages do. I wonder if the Chantry hides their possessed templars better, or if they have some special training they deny the mages so that they can keep justifying their system of oppression.

Now you are grasping at straws.

1st, holy smite effect in-game is irrelevant. Tempalr powers ARE vastly different than mage powers. Both in it's essence and aplication.

2nd, there is nothing in game to suport that theory of yours, and practicly everything to counter it. The comments of that blood mage who was trying to forcfully posses templars (Tahrone?) makes it abdundantly clear.

[vpacheco1984]

kjdhgfiliuhwe wrote...

Mages. Of course you will try to correlate the dangers you pose to that of ordinary people, even if the correlation you provide makes no logical sense. It's like comparing a man with a sword, and a baby with a spoon. One can argue that either could potentially be a danger, but to correlate them as equal in their potential is irrational. When you are in the wrong, emotional arguments are your only recourse. 

If it helps, I take no twisted pleasure at hunting you down and killing you. In fact, it haunts my nights, as I know many of you wish nothing more than to be responsible members of society. But, I grit my teeth and continue to do so until all but a handful of you are put to death. I do this, despite the anguish these deaths cause, because I know the vaguries of men (and women), and the type of power you posess only requires a few irresponsible souls to devestate the world, as we are seeing happen all around us today. 

The argument about the greater good never falls well upon the ears of those who must be sacrificed, so I do not expect you to understand, or accept this. You will, rightly so, fight for your survival. I, and others like me, will fight for humanity's. 

I can not say who will win this fight, though I obviously hope it is me and mine. If killing all but the handful of you that can be easily controlled and used as a weapon was an easy task, the task would not have to be done in the first place. 

I can promise you that if me and mine are the victors in this brutal war, we will ensure that the handful of mages allowed to live in future generations will be brought up completely seperate from humanity. They will as be like animals, tamed to perform as weapons, if needed. No higher sense of self, and no despair at their intrinsic seperation from the rest of society. No grasp of language, no art, no history. It is a gift I promise to you, so that you may die in peaceful knowledge that there is a potential light at the end of the tunnel that is the heavy weight all mages currently face today. 

Pro templars at their best. 

[EmperorSahlertz]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Templars are completely different.
They are not at risk of possesion like mages are, they cannot use blood magic or summon demons, and what pwoers they do have are practicly all either protection (resistances, barriers) or dispelling.

Holy Smite begs to differ.

Also, you don't know if templars are prone to possession. They use lyrium to enhance their power, so it's magic, and if it's magic, then they shine in the Fade like mages do. I wonder if the Chantry hides their possessed templars better, or if they have some special training they deny the mages so that they can keep justifying their system of oppression.

What Templars do IS magic. But it is powered purely by the Lyrium, and not by their mana. A Templar is NOT a mage, and thus he does not have an attractive reflection in the Fade, for demons to lock on to. And the Circles don't teach the Templar talents to its mages for obvious reasons. They are powered purely by Lyrium, which would mean you would ahve to make the amges addicted to Lyrium, and Lyrium will eventually horribly mutated any mage who uses it for prolonged amoutns of time. Also, the Templars abilities disrupt mana, which is soemthing all mages rely on, so if a mage learned to be a Templar, he might potentially hurt himself, with his own skills.
And yes, a Templar can be possessed, just like anyhting else in the world of Thedas. However, the Templars are not actively sought out by demons, and will only be possessed, if the demons can find no other mage host, or the demon is forced inside of them.

[cjones91]

kjdhgfiliuhwe wrote...

Mages. Of course you will try to correlate the dangers you pose to that of ordinary people, even if the correlation you provide makes no logical sense. It's like comparing a man with a sword, and a baby with a spoon. One can argue that either could potentially be a danger, but to correlate them as equal in their potential is irrational. When you are in the wrong, emotional arguments are your only recourse. 

If it helps, I take no twisted pleasure at hunting you down and killing you. In fact, it haunts my nights, as I know many of you wish nothing more than to be responsible members of society. But, I grit my teeth and continue to do so until all but a handful of you are put to death. I do this, despite the anguish these deaths cause, because I know the vaguries of men (and women), and the type of power you posess only requires a few irresponsible souls to devestate the world, as we are seeing happen all around us today. 

The argument about the greater good never falls well upon the ears of those who must be sacrificed, so I do not expect you to understand, or accept this. You will, rightly so, fight for your survival. I, and others like me, will fight for humanity's. 

I can not say who will win this fight, though I obviously hope it is me and mine. If killing all but the handful of you that can be easily controlled and used as a weapon was an easy task, the task would not have to be done in the first place. 

I can promise you that if me and mine are the victors in this brutal war, we will ensure that the handful of mages allowed to live in future generations will be brought up completely seperate from humanity. They will as be like animals, tamed to perform as weapons, if needed. No higher sense of self, and no despair at their intrinsic seperation from the rest of society. No grasp of language, no art, no history. It is a gift I promise to you, so that you may die in peaceful knowledge that there is a potential light at the end of the tunnel that is the heavy weight all mages currently face today. 

^^This is why I dislike extremists.

[cjones91]

vpacheco1984 wrote...

kjdhgfiliuhwe wrote...

Mages. Of course you will try to correlate the dangers you pose to that of ordinary people, even if the correlation you provide makes no logical sense. It's like comparing a man with a sword, and a baby with a spoon. One can argue that either could potentially be a danger, but to correlate them as equal in their potential is irrational. When you are in the wrong, emotional arguments are your only recourse. 

If it helps, I take no twisted pleasure at hunting you down and killing you. In fact, it haunts my nights, as I know many of you wish nothing more than to be responsible members of society. But, I grit my teeth and continue to do so until all but a handful of you are put to death. I do this, despite the anguish these deaths cause, because I know the vaguries of men (and women), and the type of power you posess only requires a few irresponsible souls to devestate the world, as we are seeing happen all around us today. 

The argument about the greater good never falls well upon the ears of those who must be sacrificed, so I do not expect you to understand, or accept this. You will, rightly so, fight for your survival. I, and others like me, will fight for humanity's. 

I can not say who will win this fight, though I obviously hope it is me and mine. If killing all but the handful of you that can be easily controlled and used as a weapon was an easy task, the task would not have to be done in the first place. 

I can promise you that if me and mine are the victors in this brutal war, we will ensure that the handful of mages allowed to live in future generations will be brought up completely seperate from humanity. They will as be like animals, tamed to perform as weapons, if needed. No higher sense of self, and no despair at their intrinsic seperation from the rest of society. No grasp of language, no art, no history. It is a gift I promise to you, so that you may die in peaceful knowledge that there is a potential light at the end of the tunnel that is the heavy weight all mages currently face today. 

Pro templars at their best. 

Not all of them are like that.This is just a example of why extremism is bad and that it's better to look at both sides with a clear mind.

[cjones91]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Templars are completely different.
They are not at risk of possesion like mages are, they cannot use blood magic or summon demons, and what pwoers they do have are practicly all either protection (resistances, barriers) or dispelling.

Holy Smite begs to differ.

Also, you don't know if templars are prone to possession. They use lyrium to enhance their power, so it's magic, and if it's magic, then they shine in the Fade like mages do. I wonder if the Chantry hides their possessed templars better, or if they have some special training they deny the mages so that they can keep justifying their system of oppression.

What Templars do IS magic. But it is powered purely by the Lyrium, and not by their mana. A Templar is NOT a mage, and thus he does not have an attractive reflection in the Fade, for demons to lock on to. And the Circles don't teach the Templar talents to its mages for obvious reasons. They are powered purely by Lyrium, which would mean you would ahve to make the amges addicted to Lyrium, and Lyrium will eventually horribly mutated any mage who uses it for prolonged amoutns of time. Also, the Templars abilities disrupt mana, which is soemthing all mages rely on, so if a mage learned to be a Templar, he might potentially hurt himself, with his own skills.
And yes, a Templar can be possessed, just like anyhting else in the world of Thedas. However, the Templars are not actively sought out by demons, and will only be possessed, if the demons can find no other mage host, or the demon is forced inside of them.

There are some schools of magic that can disrupt spells and mana like the Spirit School.

Modifié par cjones91, 14 juillet 2013 - 02:19 .