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[MisterJB]

Inprea wrote...
Game play lore segregation. The reason the posessed templars didn't transform in broken circle is the developers didn't want to expend resources on such a rare transformation sequence.

Despite having no problems spending resources having Tranquil turn into Shades in a singular event? Given that there are, at least, three rooms where templars were enthralled as opposed to one where Tranquils were possessed, it would make more sense to spend money on the templars transforming if they were, indeed, possessed.

As far as the magic goes. If I remember correctly the posessed templars could still use their templar abilities.

Enthralled. Not possessed.

How do you know a demon simply doesn't make use of and augment the most powerful abilities that a person knows whenever they're posessed? Thus an abomination tends to use magic while posessing a mage while using melee skills while posessing a templar.

The two are not mutually exclusive. Given than demons are naturally magical creatures, it only makes sense to take advantage of the melee skills of a powerful warrior and complement them with magical abilities like the Revenants do. Plus, Wilmod; who we know for a fact was possessed; used magic.

[Inprea]

MisterJB wrote...

Inprea wrote...
Game play lore segregation. The reason the posessed templars didn't transform in broken circle is the developers didn't want to expend resources on such a rare transformation sequence.

Despite having no problems spending resources having Tranquil turn into Shades in a singular event? Given that there are, at least, three rooms where templars were enthralled as opposed to one where Tranquils were possessed, it would make more sense to spend money on the templars transforming if they were, indeed, possessed.

As far as the magic goes. If I remember correctly the posessed templars could still use their templar abilities.

Enthralled. Not possessed.

How do you know a demon simply doesn't make use of and augment the most powerful abilities that a person knows whenever they're posessed? Thus an abomination tends to use magic while posessing a mage while using melee skills while posessing a templar.

The two are not mutually exclusive. Given than demons are naturally magical creatures, it only makes sense to take advantage of the melee skills of a powerful warrior and complement them with magical abilities like the Revenants do. Plus, Wilmod; who we know for a fact was possessed; used magic.

How often do we see shades? If I remember correctly the model was used quite often. Far more then just three templars worth. So how does the notion of those three rooms making it financially sensable to implement yet another character model hold up? 

Because Wildmod was a fully trained and experienced templar? As I recall he was an apprentice. If a demon is taking advantage of the most powerful abilities at its disposal why would it rely on the still developing skills of an apprentice? This changes for a well trained and experienced templar. There is also the little issue that the lore did change in a few areas at least between dragon age origins and dragon age 2.

Are apprentice templars even given lyrium so they can begin developing their more advanced abilities? 

[EmperorSahlertz]

vpacheco1984 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

vpacheco1984 wrote...

Demons prefer magical talent in the host but any will do really. And a king, queen or high ranking clergy would do. Mages are just easier to find in the fade.

No. While a demon is still in the Fade, the ONLY host it will ever actively search out, is a mage. There is no buts, or ifs. This is the way it is, and that is the way demons work, simple as that. However, if a demon has crossed the Veil, and is in the physical world of Thedas, any host will suffice. In these cases, I also imagine, though there is no way to be sure, that a demon would pick the more powerful, again prioritizing mages above all others, if it was given the choice.

Yeah because they are easier to find. Like shine like a beceon. So the attract more demons. But since everyone but dwarves and tranquil go to the fade when they sleep it would go to reason anyone can be possessed in the fade but mundane are usually ignored because they don't "shine"

I think that was in the codex somewhere but I'm half a sleep right now so I don't know.

Not only are they easier to find, they are the ONLY ones the demons find remotely interesting. Theoretically we can also eat dirt, but we don't since we don't get sustenance. Perhaps it is the same with demons. All we know is, that for several thousands years of history, NEVER even once, has a demon possessed a mundane in his sleep.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Inprea wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Inprea wrote...
Game play lore segregation. The reason the posessed templars didn't transform in broken circle is the developers didn't want to expend resources on such a rare transformation sequence.

Despite having no problems spending resources having Tranquil turn into Shades in a singular event? Given that there are, at least, three rooms where templars were enthralled as opposed to one where Tranquils were possessed, it would make more sense to spend money on the templars transforming if they were, indeed, possessed.

As far as the magic goes. If I remember correctly the posessed templars could still use their templar abilities.

Enthralled. Not possessed.

How do you know a demon simply doesn't make use of and augment the most powerful abilities that a person knows whenever they're posessed? Thus an abomination tends to use magic while posessing a mage while using melee skills while posessing a templar.

The two are not mutually exclusive. Given than demons are naturally magical creatures, it only makes sense to take advantage of the melee skills of a powerful warrior and complement them with magical abilities like the Revenants do. Plus, Wilmod; who we know for a fact was possessed; used magic.

How often do we see shades? If I remember correctly the model was used quite often. Far more then just three templars worth. So how does the notion of those three rooms making it financially sensable to implement yet another character model hold up? 

Because Wildmod was a fully trained and experienced templar? As I recall he was an apprentice. If a demon is taking advantage of the most powerful abilities at its disposal why would it rely on the still developing skills of an apprentice? This changes for a well trained and experienced templar. There is also the little issue that the lore did change in a few areas at least between dragon age origins and dragon age 2.

Are apprentice templars even given lyrium so they can begin developing their more advanced abilities? 

The question is, why wouldn't a demon use its own abilities, in tandem with whatever the host has?

[vpacheco1984]

Maybe they can't. They can only use one set of abilities at a time because of the strain it puts on the host's body. I know demon's wouldn't care about the host's health but they would care if the body is unable to sustain them in the mortal realm. Or maybe it was just something the writers didn't think about.

[MisterJB]

Inprea wrote...
How often do we see shades? If I remember correctly the model was used quite often. Far more then just three templars worth. So how does the notion of those three rooms making it financially sensable to implement yet another character model hold up? 

First, it's three groups of enthraleld templars and second, I'm not talking about a new model. I'm talking about changing from the templar model into the Abomination one which is no different than changing from Tranquil to Shade.
And don't tell me the Abomination mode wouldn't fit. It's not as if the tattered robes Abominations use are an exact replica of the robes the mages were wearing before being possessed.

Because Wildmod was a fully trained and experienced templar? As I recall he was an apprentice. If a demon is taking advantage of the most powerful abilities at its disposal why would it rely on the still developing skills of an apprentice? This changes for a well trained and experienced templar. There is also the little issue that the lore did change in a few areas at least between dragon age origins and dragon age 2.

Are apprentice templars even given lyrium so they can begin developing their more advanced abilities? 

Your theory/suggestion was that demons use the skills of their victims. Regardless of how little Wilmod knew how to wield a sword and shield or how developed his templar abilities were, he would still be much more skillfull at it than at wielding magic.

[EmperorSahlertz]

vpacheco1984 wrote...

Maybe they can't. They can only use one set of abilities at a time because of the strain it puts on the host's body. I know demon's wouldn't care about the host's health but they would care if the body is unable to sustain them in the mortal realm. Or maybe it was just something the writers didn't think about.

That is simply incorrect, sicne the thing that makes an abomination a major threat, is that it is a combination of a demon and a mage. So demons are capable of using their own, and the hosts' abilities. So there is absolutely no reason, why this wouldn't be the case, with possessed Templars. Especially since we even witness Wilmod doing magic, further showcasing that a demon can use its own abilities while possessing a Templar.

[Inprea]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The question is, why wouldn't a demon use its own abilities, in tandem with whatever the host has?

They're several answers to that question. How much ammunition does the demon have to expend? As we've seen while fighting a demon they don't exactly machine gun fire balls at us. Thus they have limited energy expendature. Now why would you use a fire ball that does x damage when you have a strike that does 1.4x or 2x damage? Especially if the two moves require the same amount of energy. Templars even have some nice ranged abilities of their own.

Game play feature. Did the developers want us to just fight another abomination that looked like a templar or did they actually want us to see how difficult it can be to fight a group of templars?

How much influence does the host body have on the magic use? Does the lyrium in a templar's blood make it easier or more difficult for a demon to use the type of magic it would use within a mage's body or the body of someone who isn't so resistant to magic? If the magic resistance makes it more difficult for the demon to direct magic through the templar's body it would naturally want to use a more reliable means of attack.

Does the demon truly want to risk improvising? It isn't like demons have a great deal of experience fighting outside of the fade in most cases. Does it want to try to come up with its own tactics on the fly or would it prefer to rely on the templar's training? At times trying to slip in an extra move could actually brake a very strong defensive stance leading to an arrow in the throat or something similar.

[Lotion Soronarr]

vpacheco1984 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

DA2 showed how hard it is to posses a mage. Several blood mages had to resort to rituals, magic and prolonged torture to get a tempalr forcibly possesed.
The blood mage leader there specificly sez she devised a method to posses EVEN templars. Her emphasis. And why would she do that if templars were easy to posses?

The mages were also using demons directly from the Fade and so the ritual was needed but I think it would be a little easier for a demon outside the veil or where the veil is torn to possess and influnce templars and other mundane. Like what happened in Broken Circle.

Which does nothing to counter my point.

Blood mages can tear the veil open, so it's not like that was all there is to it to possesing a templar.

Why do blood mages, who hate tempalrs most of all, point out how hard it is to posses a templar? The mages there had been very specific in that regard.
IIRC; someone even commnted with something like "is that even possible?"

[Ieldra]

MisterJB wrote...

As far as the magic goes. If I remember correctly the posessed templars could still use their templar abilities.

Enthralled. Not possessed.

Again: there *are* possessed templars in the Broken Circle quest. That you don't want to believe it is a different matter. Why don't they physically transform? Why should they, if their current from is as powerful as it is.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Ieldra2 wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

As far as the magic goes. If I remember correctly the posessed templars could still use their templar abilities.

Enthralled. Not possessed.

Again: there *are* possessed templars in the Broken Circle quest. That you don't want to believe it is a different matter. Why don't they physically transform? Why should they, if their current from is as powerful as it is.

Even if they were possessed it proves nothing of your theory.... The Circle was overrun with Blood Mages, Abominations and Demons. ANYTHING literally, could have been possessed. Once a demon has crossed the Veil, nothing is immune to possession, not even the Tranquil. So of course there were possessed Templars, it would be unrealistic if there weren't.

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 15 juillet 2013 - 01:13 .

[MisterJB]

Ieldra2 wrote...
Again: there *are* possessed templars in the Broken Circle quest. That you don't want to believe it is a different matter. Why don't they physically transform? Why should they, if their current from is as powerful as it is.

Why would a demon not use magic if it was about to die unless there was no demon in them?

[Ieldra]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Blood mages can tear the veil open, so it's not like that was all there is to it to possesing a templar.

Blood magic itself doesn't tear the Veil nor does it imbue any special talent to do so. Anyone can tear the Veil open. You just need to kill many people at the same time. Mages can thin the Veil by using a lot of magic as well, but blood magic isn't special in that regard. 

[Ieldra]

MisterJB wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
Again: there *are* possessed templars in the Broken Circle quest. That you don't want to believe it is a different matter. Why don't they physically transform? Why should they, if their current from is as powerful as it is.

Why would a demon not use magic if it was about to die unless there was no demon in them?

Speculation: because templars don't have a connection to the Fade strong enough to support working significant magic without lyrium. 

[MisterJB]

Ieldra2 wrote...
Speculation: because templars don't have a connection to the Fade strong enough to support working significant magic without lyrium. 

I covered all of this in the previous page.
Wilmod used magic. Revenants use magic.

Besides, if your theory was true, that actually meant possessed non-mages are nowhere near as dangerous as possessed mages and thus don't merit the same security.

[vpacheco1984]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

vpacheco1984 wrote...

Maybe they can't. They can only use one set of abilities at a time because of the strain it puts on the host's body. I know demon's wouldn't care about the host's health but they would care if the body is unable to sustain them in the mortal realm. Or maybe it was just something the writers didn't think about.

That is simply incorrect, sicne the thing that makes an abomination a major threat, is that it is a combination of a demon and a mage. So demons are capable of using their own, and the hosts' abilities. So there is absolutely no reason, why this wouldn't be the case, with possessed Templars. Especially since we even witness Wilmod doing magic, further showcasing that a demon can use its own abilities while possessing a Templar.

You did see the MAYBE there right? That means I don't now and was just making a guess and not even that educated of one. 

Modifié par vpacheco1984, 15 juillet 2013 - 01:29 .

[Inprea]

MisterJB wrote...

Inprea wrote...
How often do we see shades? If I remember correctly the model was used quite often. Far more then just three templars worth. So how does the notion of those three rooms making it financially sensable to implement yet another character model hold up? 

First, it's three groups of enthraleld templars and second, I'm not talking about a new model. I'm talking about changing from the templar model into the Abomination one which is no different than changing from Tranquil to Shade.
And don't tell me the Abomination mode wouldn't fit. It's not as if the tattered robes Abominations use are an exact replica of the robes the mages were wearing before being possessed.

Because Wildmod was a fully trained and experienced templar? As I recall he was an apprentice. If a demon is taking advantage of the most powerful abilities at its disposal why would it rely on the still developing skills of an apprentice? This changes for a well trained and experienced templar. There is also the little issue that the lore did change in a few areas at least between dragon age origins and dragon age 2.

Are apprentice templars even given lyrium so they can begin developing their more advanced abilities? 

Your theory/suggestion was that demons use the skills of their victims. Regardless of how little Wilmod knew how to wield a sword and shield or how developed his templar abilities were, he would still be much more skillfull at it than at wielding magic.

That is still only three appearances. Compared to how many times shades appear? 

Why shouldn't I say the abomination model wouldn't fit? What logical reason can you give to justify its exclusion? It's not as if the mages are carrying shields, swords and in armor. The possessed templars don't fight like a possessed mage after all. They make use of their shield and swords as well as their templar abilities. They're making use of the strongest tools available to them. Mages on the other hand tend to be far less well conditioned physically and lack the melee training. Thus a transformation to their body is easier to justify. Should they have gone through the trouble of applying a shield stance to the abomination models for three appearances?

The torn remains of the templar robes are a bit different from a weapon, a shield and armor.

No. I said the demon is taking advantage of the most powerful abilities at its disposal. I did not say they use the skills of their victim. The demons proficiency in magic could easily outstripped Wilmod's melee skills even with physical augmentation as he's still in training.

Plus. I don't exactly see a shield or a sword on him. http://i820.photobuc.../CullenBack.jpg How do you expect him to fight like a templar unarmed? 

[MisterJB]

Inprea wrote...
That is still only three appearances. Compared to how many times shades appear? 

"Compared to how many times tranquils become shades"; which is one; would be a more honest comparison.

Why shouldn't I say the abomination model wouldn't fit? What logical reason can you give to justify its exclusion? It's not as if the mages are carrying shields, swords and in armor. The possessed templars don't fight like a possessed mage after all. They make use of their shield and swords as well as their templar abilities. They're making use of the strongest tools available to them. Mages on the other hand tend to be far less well conditioned physically and lack the melee training. Thus a transformation to their body is easier to justify. Should they have gone through the trouble of applying a shield stance to the abomination models for three appearances?

The torn remains of the templar robes are a bit different from a weapon, a shield and armor.

A fair point except Wilmod turned into a shade in DA2 thus discarding his armor therefore, it would be entirely feasible in DAO if the templars were really possessed.
And, lorewise, even if templars are more physically adept, why not transform their bodies as well, giving them even more strength with which to wield their weapons?

No. I said the demon is taking advantage of the most powerful abilities at its disposal. I did not say they use the skills of their victim.

Yes, you did.
"How do you know a demon simply doesn't make use of and augment the most
powerful abilities that a person knows whenever they're posessed"
The most powerful abilities of Wilmod would be physical. In fact, regardless of who we are speaking, the ability of magic generally beats waving a sword.

The demons proficiency in magic could easily outstripped Wilmod's melee skills even with physical augmentation as he's still in training.

And what reason could there be not to use both physical and magical abilities?

Plus. I don't exactly see a shield or a sword on him. http://i820.photobuc.../CullenBack.jpg How do you expect him to fight like a templar unarmed? 

Punching would still be more in Wilmod's skillset than floating and magic.
Unless, of course, demons just use the skills of their victims combined with their own powers which is logical.

Modifié par MisterJB, 15 juillet 2013 - 01:40 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

I don't know why we are even discussing this. It is established lore that the demon use the combined abilities of itself and the host...

[TheKomandorShepard]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

I don't know why we are even discussing this. It is established lore that the demon use the combined abilities of itself and the host...

True at least in dead mage case is that demon possess all spells that mage and own skills ,at least codex says that 

http://dragonage.wik...i/Arcane_Horror

I have also a question , are revenants were mages or warriors because they have some magical ability but also warrior skills.

Modifié par TheKomandorShepard, 15 juillet 2013 - 02:33 .

[MisterJB]

I always thought they were powerful warriors whose corpses were possessed. If we assume demons would have no knowledge on how to properly wield a sword and shield, it seems more likely they contribute the magical abilities the Revenants possess.
It's not impossible that a mage could be trained as a warrior, of course, but those appear to be exceedingly rare outside of Tevinter.

[vpacheco1984]

Revenants could have been Arcane Warrior when they were alive. We know that demons can change the physical form of the person or thing they possess, if they are possessed by demons.

Modifié par vpacheco1984, 15 juillet 2013 - 02:51 .

[TheKomandorShepard]

vpacheco1984 wrote...

Revenants could have been Arcane Warrior when they were alive. We know that demons can change the physical form of the person or thing they possess, if they are possessed by demons.

But then why they don't have arcane warrior skills if demon possesses someone then he have knowledge and skills that person like uldred who even know that you are irving apprentice. 

[Inprea]

MisterJB wrote...

"Compared to how many times tranquils become shades"; which is one; would be a more honest comparison.

Did those tranquil have anything in their appearance to make them stand out from a mage's transformation? Unlike a templar tranquil have no swords, armor or shields to take into consideration and they lack any combat training. It's much easier to see why the demons would convert them into shades while a templar abdomination would need more consideration.

The tranquil turned into shades and fought as shades. Such a transformation wouldn't fit with the templars who fought as templars.

MisterJB wrote...
A fair point except Wilmod turned into a shade in DA2 thus discarding his armor therefore, it would be entirely feasible in DAO if the templars were really possessed.
And, lorewise, even if templars are more physically adept, why not transform their bodies as well, giving them even more strength with which to wield their weapons?

The demon inside Wilmod abandoned his apprentice armor which appears a much thinner and weaker armor then the templar armor. Unlike the templars in the tower Wilmod also lacked a weapon or shield which are needed to make use of many templar benefits and abilities. As for why not to transform. They're several reasons really.

1st. Structure of the hands. A sword's hilt and a shields handle is designed for a certain type of hand. A drastic alteration to that hand would influence the grip which also influences the manuvers that a person can perform with that weapon or shield.

2nd. Structure of the body as well. As it's fairly clear the physical change of an abomination is disproportional. This is going to throw off a person's center of gravity which is going to influence their balance and their footing. This is going to hinder their combat ability.

3rd. Transformation would mean abandoning their armor. In Wilmod's case he was only wearing the light apprentice armor while in the case of a full templar they have the heavier protective sets. For Wilmod this was a far smaller sacrifice for him.

MisterJB wrote...
Yes, you did.
"How do you know a demon simply doesn't make use of and augment the most
powerful abilities that a person knows whenever they're posessed"
The most powerful abilities of Wilmod would be physical. In fact, regardless of who we are speaking, the ability of magic generally beats waving a sword.

    The demons proficiency in magic could easily outstripped Wilmod's melee skills even with physical augmentation as he's still in training.

You have a point there I should have said the most powerful abilities at its disposal. As we saw with Sophia a demon doesn't just retain its magic but also takes on the abilities of its host and memories. Unless someone wants to claim that the demon learned sword play while it posessed her. Yet this also sets a standard. In Sophia's case we had a person wearing good heavy armor and a weapon in hand. Instead of simply transforming like the demon posessing Wilmod did she retained her human form because the armor and weapon out weighed the benefit of taking on a demon form.

The templars in the tower also did far more then just wave a sword around. They made use of their templar abilities much as Sophia made use of her ability as a warrior. The notion that the demon's magic could easily outstrip an apprentice templars melee ability especially when that apprentice is unarmed only serves to show why the demon would go ahead and transform. Unlike the templars in the tower who like Sophia were well armored, well armed and unlike Sophia had access to several templar abilities.

Did Sophia even throw any fire balls or other then the summoning did she rely entirely on her warrior abilities?

MisterJB wrote...
And what reason could there be not to use both physical and magical abilities?

Punching with a fist is very different them using a sword and a shield. Why get in melee range whenever you've abandoned your armor, have no shield, have no sword and you can throw fire balls?

MisterJB wrote...
Punching would still be more in Wilmod's skillset than floating and magic.
Unless, of course, demons just use the skills of their victims combined with their own powers which is logical.

How many magic abilities did we see Sophia using? Wilmod lacking a sword, shield, being lightly armored compared to a full templar and his relative inexperience all serve as good reasons for the demon to fall back on its own ability. The templars in the tower however were fully armored, armed and trained. Thus a good reason to use the abilities of its posessed host much the same way the demon posessing Sophia did.

[The Baconer]

I remember the Spirit Warrior specialization revolved around a person "flirting" with spirits of the Fade in order to enhance their abilities. It seems like in this case it would be quite possible, and likely, that a mundane could be tricked into using their body as a vessel for a demon.

Of course, I wouldn't be surprised if the entire concept of the Spirit Warrior has since been retconned out.