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[EmperorSahlertz]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

I don't know why we are even discussing this. It is established lore that the demon use the combined abilities of itself and the host...

True at least in dead mage case is that demon possess all spells that mage and own skills ,at least codex says that 

http://dragonage.wik...i/Arcane_Horror

I have also a question , are revenants were mages or warriors because they have some magical ability but also warrior skills.

Revenants are the possessed corpses of powerful warriors, and whatever magical abilities they possess, are probably comming from the demon, and not the corpse.

[Ieldra]

I would like this debate to refocus a little, in the spirit of the OP. There have been several hints that the "realities" the current system is built on may not be so certain after all. The nature of spirits remains basically unknown. The factors influencing possession remain in doubt with very varying frequencies between different cultures. Some of the limitations of magic may not be quite as "hard" as believed.

So, what do you think could be revealed in DAI about all these things which would undermine the current system and give the whole debate a new direction? Sources to take into account are, among other things, Rhys' speech at the Andoval's Reach mage conclave (the relevant part being quoted in the OP), Sandal's prophecy and the Fade tear in the Fire From Above trailer.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Why is this even being debated? We already know the facts from codexes.


- demons don't really see non-mages
- demons that posseses a mage get all of their abilities and are even stronger
- demons that posseses a mundane are weaker than true abominations
- templars, due to their training and willpower, are difficult to posses

Ready the bloody codexes already...

[Ieldra]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
- templars, due to their training and willpower, are difficult to posses

Source? Besides, I ask again, why do they not train mages the same way?

Besides, can we please focus on something else? This exchange goes nowhere. I'd like to question the fundamentals of the system, not remain mired in old dogma. Why did things work out for the Rivaini, for instance? Do they know things about spirits the Chantry doesn't want to acknowledge?

Modifié par Ieldra2, 16 juillet 2013 - 07:54 .

[DKJaigen]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Why is this even being debated? We already know the facts from codexes.


- demons don't really see non-mages
- demons that posseses a mage get all of their abilities and are even stronger
- demons that posseses a mundane are weaker than true abominations
- templars, due to their training and willpower, are difficult to posses

Ready the bloody codexes already...

Read the codex ourself mate. demons do not care about power they care about being able to see and taste live like a human being. both mundane and mage will do for them.
And templars dont have strong will. their minds are being destroyed by the lyrium in fact you see a dozens of templars being corrupted. in time both cullen and kerran would succumb to their tortures as well. also kerran case is unique that he was being tortured in the fade. that means a demon in the fade can posses a mundane with the aid of a mage, it doesnt show any signs how much willpower keran has actually he was the last one to dissapear

[Lotion Soronarr]

Demons do care.

And tempalrs do haev strong will. It has been noted and acknowledged by several characters.

This whole "templars are just as dangerous as mages" direction is utterly pathetic. Really, are you so desperate?

[DKJaigen]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Demons do care.

And tempalrs do haev strong will. It has been noted and acknowledged by several characters.

This whole "templars are just as dangerous as mages" direction is utterly pathetic. Really, are you so desperate?

Provide proof. i can provide proof in an instant that demons do not care about power.
"
They stare across the Veil
at the living and do not understand what they see, yet they know they
crave it. They desire life, they pull the living across the Veil when
they sleep and prey on their psyche with nightmares. Whenever they can,
they cross the Veil into our world to possess it outright.
"

http://dragonage.wik...onic_Possession

so which are the people that claim templars have high willpower? quote them. and considering that demons are no longer in the fade and templars are forced to directy confront them the question is not desperate but practical. considering how epic fail templars when confronting demons i simply have no hope for them when they encounter a demonic horde.

Modifié par BioWareMod03, 16 juillet 2013 - 03:04 .

[MisterJB]

Ieldra2 wrote...
Besides, can we please focus on something else? This exchange goes nowhere. I'd like to question the fundamentals of the system, not remain mired in old dogma. Why did things work out for the Rivaini, for instance? Do they know things about spirits the Chantry doesn't want to acknowledge?

I'm not sure on what basis you could claim things worked out for the rivaini. Reading WoT, it seems clear mages tend to rule rivaini communities so, if anything, it just fulfilled the fears of the people who claim that "give mages some freedom and they'll want more and more until they are the ones in power".
And we don't really know with which frequency rivaini mages become Abominations. But, for the sake of debate, let's assume it's less than the mages in other countries.
Well, being powerful would alleviate some of the emotional distress that can lead to mages being possessed; altough, I don't think that "We should let the mages rule or they will hurt us" is an acceptable argument for obvious reasons; and there is probrably something to be said about spirit possession; if that is what the Seers do; because the fact that a spirit is already inhabiting the body of the mages, there is no room for a demon..
However, if Anders proved anything was that spirits are anything but safe and friendly. Ultimately, spirits are narrow-minded, they see things in black and white, have no concept of things of vital importance such as time and can actually be corrupted by the sentiments of the mages into becoming a demon.
Therefore, I would not advise we adopt the methods of the Seers.
I'm certain that the fact that rivaini culture places the wellfare of the community over the desires of the individual plays some role in their "sucess" but good luck bringing that to Tevinter or Orlais.

[DKJaigen]

MisterJB wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
Besides, can we please focus on something else? This exchange goes nowhere. I'd like to question the fundamentals of the system, not remain mired in old dogma. Why did things work out for the Rivaini, for instance? Do they know things about spirits the Chantry doesn't want to acknowledge?

I'm not sure on what basis you could claim things worked out for the rivaini. Reading WoT, it seems clear mages tend to rule rivaini communities so, if anything, it just fulfilled the fears of the people who claim that "give mages some freedom and they'll want more and more until they are the ones in power".

once again what is the problem?

[cjones91]

MisterJB wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
Besides, can we please focus on something else? This exchange goes nowhere. I'd like to question the fundamentals of the system, not remain mired in old dogma. Why did things work out for the Rivaini, for instance? Do they know things about spirits the Chantry doesn't want to acknowledge?

I'm not sure on what basis you could claim things worked out for the rivaini. Reading WoT, it seems clear mages tend to rule rivaini communities so, if anything, it just fulfilled the fears of the people who claim that "give mages some freedom and they'll want more and more until they are the ones in power".
And we don't really know with which frequency rivaini mages become Abominations. But, for the sake of debate, let's assume it's less than the mages in other countries.
Well, being powerful would alleviate some of the emotional distress that can lead to mages being possessed; altough, I don't think that "We should let the mages rule or they will hurt us" is an acceptable argument for obvious reasons; and there is probrably something to be said about spirit possession; if that is what the Seers do; because the fact that a spirit is already inhabiting the body of the mages, there is no room for a demon..
However, if Anders proved anything was that spirits are anything but safe and friendly. Ultimately, spirits are narrow-minded, they see things in black and white, have no concept of things of vital importance such as time and can actually be corrupted by the sentiments of the mages into becoming a demon.
Therefore, I would not advise we adopt the methods of the Seers.
I'm certain that the fact that rivaini culture places the wellfare of the community over the desires of the individual plays some role in their "sucess" but good luck bringing that to Tevinter or Orlais.

First off Justice was corrupted by Anders's anger so depending on the emotional stabilty of the host a spirit is not dangerous since some are willing to help people like Wynne.

I've read your past posts and you seem to have something against mages having any position in society yet you ignore everyone else.You seem to believe any mage will become evil dictators if given political power yet you ignore all the abuses of power by nobles in places like Orlais.

So I have a genuine question:Why do you codemn one group but excuse the other?

The mages in Rivain turns the Chantry's claim that mages will become abominations if they aren't in the Circle into complete nonsense which is probaly why templars from another land Annuled the Circle there.

Modifié par cjones91, 16 juillet 2013 - 01:54 .

[MisterJB]

cjones91 wrote...
First off Justice was corrupted by Anders's anger so depending on the emotional stabilty of the host a spirit is not dangerous since some are willing to help people like Wynne.

Depending upon someone's emotional stability is always a risk. Wynne is a good person, certanly, but even she becomes dangerous in Asunder once she thinks her son is dead. How many situations in life are there that could lead to a spirit being corrupted? Innumerable ones.

I've read your past posts and you seem to have something against mages having any position in society yet you ignore everyone else.You seem to believe any mage will become evil dictactors if given political power yet you ignore all the abuses of power by nobles in places like Orlais.

So I have a genuine question:Why do you codemn one group but excuse the other?

That is incorrect.
I do not have any particular problem with mages having a position in society. I have a problem with mages having a position in society because they are mages rather than because of merit as it occurs in the Dalish system if you do not wish to speak of Tevinter.
This, of course, doesn't I actually support the nobility. I have no more love for feudalism than I do for a magocracy. It just so happens we don't talk about nobles as much as we do mages on these forums.
I find it an absolute travesty that chevaliers are given privileges over the people they should be protecting. Which is one reason why Thedas needs firearms.

My main fear is the simple fact that, given the lack of technological advancement on Thedas, there exists a deep gap between mages and non-mages. Magic is an advantage and, just like with all advantages, it will be exploited for the benefit of the user. This is not an evil action per se, it's just a fact.
And how can non-mages compete with free mages? They can't and this will lead to mage having complete control of the economy of society in Thedas which will lead to them holding the true power meaning that non-mages will just become second-class citizens.
The degree of kindness with which this upper magical class might wish to conduct itself in the future is irrelevant to my opposition of it. Would you support a benevolent oligarchy?

[cjones91]

MisterJB wrote...

cjones91 wrote...
First off Justice was corrupted by Anders's anger so depending on the emotional stabilty of the host a spirit is not dangerous since some are willing to help people like Wynne.

Depending upon someone's emotional stability is always a risk. Wynne is a good person, certanly, but even she becomes dangerous in Asunder once she thinks her son is dead. How many situations in life are there that could lead to a spirit being corrupted? Innumerable ones.

I've read your past posts and you seem to have something against mages having any position in society yet you ignore everyone else.You seem to believe any mage will become evil dictactors if given political power yet you ignore all the abuses of power by nobles in places like Orlais.

So I have a genuine question:Why do you codemn one group but excuse the other?

That is incorrect.
I do not have any particular problem with mages having a position in society. I have a problem with mages having a position in society because they are mages rather than because of merit as it occurs in the Dalish system if you do not wish to speak of Tevinter.
This, of course, doesn't I actually support the nobility. I have no more love for feudalism than I do for a magocracy. It just so happens we don't talk about nobles as much as we do mages on these forums.
I find it an absolute travesty that chevaliers are given privileges over the people they should be protecting. Which is one reason why Thedas needs firearms.

My main fear is the simple fact that, given the lack of technological advancement on Thedas, there exists a deep gap between mages and non-mages. Magic is an advantage and, just like with all advantages, it will be exploited for the benefit of the user. This is not an evil action per se, it's just a fact.
And how can non-mages compete with free mages? They can't and this will lead to mage having complete control of the economy of society in Thedas which will lead to them holding the true power meaning that non-mages will just become second-class citizens.
The degree of kindness with which this upper magical class might wish to conduct itself in the future is irrelevant to my opposition of it. Would you support a benevolent oligarchy?

I support a checks and balances system where both sides are happy.Mages want to live outside the Circle?Then they must agree to having a group of templars be near them at all times,they start thinking they can use their magic to do whatever they want?Then the templars will cut them down on the spot.

Same thing goes for the templars:They start treating mages like play things?Then they are stripped of their position and kicked out of the order, they kill a mage and can't come up with a good enough explanation for why they did so?They are forbidden from interacting with any other mage until a investigation by a neutral party is done to determine if the templar in question was justified.

[Medhia Nox]

The question is... "Why" would a mage have any real position in society except perhaps as a "Minister of Magic" type?

Writing characters who can spend their entire lives studying magic AND properly govern does not show a good understanding of what it is to be a human being (please have some brain power - obviously real people don't study magic).

I've met a LOT of PhDs... and the vast majority can barely govern their own wardrobe.

It's not that one exceptional person couldn't do it - it's that "magic" wouldn't at all be the reason why someone would be an exceptional ruler (or whatever).

Now - if you want to represent a "mage" who has only the most basic knowledge in magic AND rules - that seems far more reasonable.

But again - having magic isn't a "reason" to have any position other than: Mage

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 16 juillet 2013 - 03:10 .

[Sir DeLoria]

Pardon me, I think I'm lost. Is this another Mage v Templar thread?

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Necanor wrote...

Pardon me, I think I'm lost. Is this another Mage v Templar thread?

Their numbers will darken the sky of every world. You cannot escape!

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 16 juillet 2013 - 04:28 .

[MisterJB]

Necanor wrote...

Pardon me, I think I'm lost. Is this another Mage v Templar thread?

Hello, welcome to Dragon Age where everything is a Mage vs Templar debate.
You'd think there is nothing else on the setting.

[Ieldra]

Necanor wrote...
Pardon me, I think I'm lost. Is this another Mage v Templar thread?

It started as a thread about the future of mages and magic. You might want to read the OP. Unsurprisingly, our opposite numbers invaded and have hogged this thread with their agenda of keeping mages oppressed. I don't really mind, but it would be nice if we could occasionally discuss the future of mages and magic in the light of the speculative big changes to come according to Sandal's prophecy and the events of Asunder instead of remaining stuck in old doctrine.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 16 juillet 2013 - 05:52 .

[Plaintiff]

MisterJB wrote...

Necanor wrote...

Pardon me, I think I'm lost. Is this another Mage v Templar thread?

Hello, welcome to Dragon Age where everything is a Mage vs Templar debate.
You'd think there is nothing else on the setting.

Feel free to make a thread on any other topic.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Necanor wrote...
Pardon me, I think I'm lost. Is this another Mage v Templar thread?

It started as a thread about the future of mages and magic. You might want to read the OP. Unsurprisingly, our opposite numbers invaded and have hogged this thread with their agenda of keeping mages oppressed. I don't really mind, but it would be nice if we could occasionally discuss the future of mages and magic in the light of the speculative big changes to come according to Sandal's prophecy and the events of Asunder instead of remaining stuck in old doctrine.

.... You jsut said this was a discussion thread, yet when we come and share our opinion, we are invading your little "praise the mage" party? If you don't want the Templar-supporters point of view, make a Mage support thread, isntead of one opening a discussion on the future of mages...

[Ieldra]

@EmperorSahlertz:
I said I didn't mind the extended debate. If I didn't want it, I'd have posted in a group. I just think it's gotten a little one-sided. As I said, it would be nice if we could occasionally discuss the future of mages and magic in the light of the speculative big changes to come according to Sandal's prophecy and the events of Asunder instead of remaining stuck in old doctrine.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 16 juillet 2013 - 06:28 .

[Ieldra]

Medhia Nox wrote...
The question is... "Why" would a mage have any real position in society except perhaps as a "Minister of Magic" type?

Writing characters who can spend their entire lives studying magic AND properly govern does not show a good understanding of what it is to be a human being (please have some brain power - obviously real people don't study magic).

I've met a LOT of PhDs... and the vast majority can barely govern their own wardrobe.

And some become political advisors and even rulers. That such a career is only taken up rarely doesn't mean it's impossible. If you ask why a mage would even want to rule, I'll give you the answer: for the same variety of reasons any other person might want to rule. 

It's not that one exceptional person couldn't do it - it's that "magic" wouldn't at all be the reason why someone would be an exceptional ruler (or whatever).

At the same time, magic is no reason why someone would have an advantage in such a position. Raw magical power is all good and well, but it won't get you far in politics unless the group you're ruling is small or it's blood magic, and even that won't get you much further since mind control doesn't last. I think the fear that mages will monopolize power is unfounded, unless there's already a cultural underpinning.

[Lotion Soronarr]

BioWareMod03 wrote...
Provide proof. i can provide proof in an instant that demons do not care about power.
"
They stare across the Veil
at the living and do not understand what they see, yet they know they
crave it. They desire life, they pull the living across the Veil when
they sleep and prey on their psyche with nightmares. Whenever they can,
they cross the Veil into our world to possess it outright.
"

http://dragonage.wik...onic_Possession

"We know that any demon will seek to possess a mage, and upon doing so will create an abomination."

"Strongest of all demons are those of pride. These are the most feared creatures to loose upon the world: Masters of magic and in possession of vast intellect, they are the true schemers. It is they who seek most strongly to possess mages, and will bring other demons across the Veil in numbers to achieve their own ends—although what that might be has never been discovered. A greater pride demon, brought across the veil, would threaten the entire world. "


"Demons are drawn to mages, though whether it is because of this
awareness or simply by virtue of their magical power in our world is
unknown.
Regardless of the reason, a demon always attempts to possess a
mage when it encounters one—by force or by making some kind of deal
depending on the strength of the mage."

so which are the people that claim templars have high willpower?

How about the same blood mages that are trying to forcefully put demons inside them?
What was that ugly blood mage name? Tahrone?

[Lotion Soronarr]

Ieldra2 wrote...

@EmperorSahlertz:
I said I didn't mind the extended debate. If I didn't want it, I'd have posted in a group. I just think it's gotten a little one-sided. As I said, it would be nice if we could occasionally discuss the future of mages and magic in the light of the speculative big changes to come according to Sandal's prophecy and the events of Asunder instead of remaining stuck in old doctrine.

Unless you missed it, EVERY thread with the words "templar" or "mage" turns into this.

Even threads that have a very specific and narrow topic.
Even when the OP repetedly reminds everyone they are going off-topic.

Becasue frankly, this whole mage vs. templar thing has turned into one giant grudge match. People deliberately ruining/de-railing threads out of spite.

[Ieldra]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

BioWareMod03 wrote...
Provide proof. i can provide proof in an instant that demons do not care about power.
"They stare across the Veil at the living and do not understand what they see, yet they know they crave it. They desire life, they pull the living across the Veil when they sleep and prey on their psyche with nightmares. Whenever they can, they cross the Veil into our world to possess it outright."

http://dragonage.wik...onic_Possession

"We know that any demon will seek to possess a mage, and upon doing so will create an abomination."

"Strongest of all demons are those of pride. These are the most feared creatures to loose upon the world: Masters of magic and in possession of vast intellect, they are the true schemers. It is they who seek most strongly to possess mages, and will bring other demons across the Veil in numbers to achieve their own ends—although what that might be has never been discovered. A greater pride demon, brought across the veil, would threaten the entire world. "

Nobody denies that demons are dangerous. However, this is an in-world account written by a Chantry scholar, based on texts not older than the Tower Age. I think the Chantry's classfication of spirits is influenced, if not dominated, by religious notions about sins and virtues and may thus be inappropriate. Also, no account from non-Chantry cultures exists. It is this predisposition which Rhys challenges in "Asunder" when he concludes that "we know nothing of demons, or even of our own limitations" and asserts that it is necessary to look at the problem from a new perspective, and it is this predisposition I challenge when I say we shouldn't remain stuck in old doctrine.

There's also the fact that other cultures don't appear to have as big of a problem with abominations. I wonder if it's possible that religious dogma influences the nature of spirits. The Fade is, after all, a place where emotions and ideas take shape. As such, it can indeed be a source of many dangers, but it may also be possible to consciously influence its nature. In fact, I hypothesize that being reactive to the emotions and ideas of people is an aspect of Thedas' nature, and the Veil is a construct resulting from the ancient Dreamers' efforts to protect their tribes from the dangers of dreams-made-real. Yavana hints at a time before the Veil, and Sandal's prophecy may hint that those times are returning.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Ieldra2 wrote...
There's also the fact that other cultures don't appear to have as big of a problem with abominations.

They don't?

So far we've only been in Andrastian lands, and I wouldn't say other cultures don't have a problem.
The Dalish don't seem immune to possesion or mage abuse. Quit the contrary in fact.
Qunari seemed to have big enough of a problem that they resorted to their extreeme.

It is interesting to what degree the people shape the Fade.
The world of spirits and demons is indeed full of unknowns.