1656 réponses à ce sujet

[Ieldra]

Other cultures recognize that abominations can exist and can be dangerous, but the Dalish, for instance, don't appear to have them at regular intervals. I've also mentioned the Rivaini, who appear to have a tradition of closer interaction with the spirit world but with no disasters resulting from it (unless templars from foreign lands come and create one). The qunari are, indeed, at the extreme other end, but given the precepts of their culture, I'm disinclined to learn anything from them except how not to do things.

So, while "Interaction with the spirit world can be dangerous" appears to be a universal truth, there are very differents way to deal with that, and for some cultures the dangers appear much lessened, either by better training, less prejudice or other reasons we can only speculate about.

[Lotion Soronarr]

I wodner where you get those statistics?

We've seen only 2 dalish clans, and one had a keeper create a crazy curse and the other had a keeper turn to abomination. The player just isn't in position to see more, given the locations he's going.
For all we know, an entire dalish clan can easily be consumed by an abomination and no one will ever know, given the clans isolated and nomadic nature.


Of Riviani we know next to nothing.

[Ieldra]

Of course I don't have any statistics. I go from the impression I get from the stories and the background material. Also, I don't recall who says that abominations among the Dalish are extremely rare, but it's somewhere in DA2.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 17 juillet 2013 - 01:05 .

[vpacheco1984]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Of course I don't have any statistics. I go from the impression I get from the stories and the background material. Also, I don't recall who says that abominations among the Dalish are extremely rare, but it's somewhere in DA2.

Merrill does when you first find out she is a mage an she is talking about how Keepers are mages.

[EmperorSahlertz]

No one ever says that Dalish Abominations are "extremely rare". All Merrill says is, that it happens, and that it is a terrible thing when it happens. That's it. That being said, since that Abominations are rare, and Dalish are few in numbers too, it stands to reason that Dalish Abominations are an uncommon sight to say the least, but not by virtue of their trainning, but rather because the Dalish are few.

[Medhia Nox]

The two Dalish clans we run in to have... what - three mages total?

And - 1/3 of those mages becomes an abominatio - while another 1/3 is an insane psychopath - and the last 1/3 is a self-absorbed fanatic.

I think the stories and background material make a pretty clear picture of "magic amongst the Dalish".

But vengeance makes everything okay.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Medhia Nox wrote...

The two Dalish clans we run in to have... what - three mages total?

And - 1/3 of those mages becomes an abominatio - while another 1/3 is an insane psychopath - and the last 1/3 is a self-absorbed fanatic.

I think the stories and background material make a pretty clear picture of "magic amongst the Dalish".

But vengeance makes everything okay.

5 dalish mages in games (6 if count replacement for merril and 7 if we can include Aneirin) + 2 from redemption.


"insane psychopath" who are you talking about?

[vpacheco1984]

There were six dalish mages that we meet in all the games and DLCs.
Merethari- trying to protect Merrill and becomes an abomination.
Zathrian- Went insane at the loss of both his children.
Velennea- Angry and insane.
Merrill- Naive and foolish but not evil
Layna- Sane and even tempered even after suffering horribly at the hands of humans
Aneirin- Healer and surprising forgiving. Considering that he was hunted down like an animal then stabbed left to die in a ditch.

[TheKomandorShepard]

vpacheco1984 wrote...

There were six dalish mages that we meet in all the games and DLCs.
Merethari- trying to protect Merrill and becomes an abomination.
Zathrian- Went insane at the loss of both his children.
Velennea- Angry and insane.
Merrill- Naive and foolish but not evil
Layna- Sane and even tempered even after suffering horribly at the hands of humans
Aneirin- Healer and surprising forgiving. Considering that he was hunted down like an animal then stabbed left to die in a ditch.

and her http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Elora i forgot about velennea but this is not my fault she is just boring.

[Ieldra]

Medhia Nox wrote...
But vengeance makes everything okay.

Tell me, are you a mind reader? Because this is about the 999th time you ascribe thoughts, emotions and motivations to people with no evidence at all.

@TheKomandorShepard
Elora isn't a mage.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 17 juillet 2013 - 03:01 .

[TheKomandorShepard]

Ieldra2 wrote...

@TheKomandorShepard
Elora isn't a mage.

Well she throw fireball at my warden if i remember correctly of course it may be gamplay but changing character class is serious matter especially mage.

[Ieldra]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

@TheKomandorShepard
Elora isn't a mage.

Well she throw fireball at my warden if i remember correctly of course it may be gamplay but changing character class is serious matter especially mage.

She did? Ah well, I sided with the werewolves against the Dalish only once, and that's a long time ago. OK, apparently she is a mage.

[dragonflight288]

Ieldra2 wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

@TheKomandorShepard
Elora isn't a mage.

Well she throw fireball at my warden if i remember correctly of course it may be gamplay but changing character class is serious matter especially mage.

She did? Ah well, I sided with the werewolves against the Dalish only once, and that's a long time ago. OK, apparently she is a mage.

We know from Zathrian's first that she had to compete against others in the clan to be the first, and so we know that the Dalish have more than two mages per clan, beyond the Keeper and the First.

Chances are, the other mages learn from the Keeper how to control their magic, but they aren't learning all the Dalish ways and histories, and may be hunters like others in the clan, or storytellers, or craftsmen, or whatever, but have to practice their magic to learn control. There is no evidence to support this theory, but neither is there evdience against it. All we know is that the Dalish have more than two mages per clan if Lanaya had to compete to become the First.

[EmperorSahlertz]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

@TheKomandorShepard
Elora isn't a mage.

Well she throw fireball at my warden if i remember correctly of course it may be gamplay but changing character class is serious matter especially mage.

She did? Ah well, I sided with the werewolves against the Dalish only once, and that's a long time ago. OK, apparently she is a mage.

We know from Zathrian's first that she had to compete against others in the clan to be the first, and so we know that the Dalish have more than two mages per clan, beyond the Keeper and the First.

Chances are, the other mages learn from the Keeper how to control their magic, but they aren't learning all the Dalish ways and histories, and may be hunters like others in the clan, or storytellers, or craftsmen, or whatever, but have to practice their magic to learn control. There is no evidence to support this theory, but neither is there evdience against it. All we know is that the Dalish have more than two mages per clan if Lanaya had to compete to become the First.

Mages in the Clan who are not accepted as the First, or if the Keeper already got a First, is given to other clans, who are in need of a First. I believe Merrill talks about this.

[Ieldra]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

@TheKomandorShepard
Elora isn't a mage.

Well she throw fireball at my warden if i remember correctly of course it may be gamplay but changing character class is serious matter especially mage.

She did? Ah well, I sided with the werewolves against the Dalish only once, and that's a long time ago. OK, apparently she is a mage.

We know from Zathrian's first that she had to compete against others in the clan to be the first, and so we know that the Dalish have more than two mages per clan, beyond the Keeper and the First.

Chances are, the other mages learn from the Keeper how to control their magic, but they aren't learning all the Dalish ways and histories, and may be hunters like others in the clan, or storytellers, or craftsmen, or whatever, but have to practice their magic to learn control. There is no evidence to support this theory, but neither is there evdience against it. All we know is that the Dalish have more than two mages per clan if Lanaya had to compete to become the First.

Mages in the Clan who are not accepted as the First, or if the Keeper already got a First, is given to other clans, who are in need of a First. I believe Merrill talks about this.

Somewhat hard to do if there are more mages than can become Keepers or Firsts overall. What do you think a clan does then?

[EmperorSahlertz]

We don't know what a clan does then. Personally I hope that the clan gets rid of the untrained mage, since that would fit into the dark themes of Dragon Age. But it might be handled differently by the individual clans.

[Ieldra]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
We don't know what a clan does then. Personally I hope that the clan gets rid of the untrained mage, since that would fit into the dark themes of Dragon Age. But it might be handled differently by the individual clans.

I don't think training as a mage and training as a keeper are so closely linked that you can't have the former without the latter. Mage training, after all, is a necessity for any mageborn, as opposed to keeper training. Also, don't you get the impression that elven craft is often somewhat magical? Varathorn can make enchanted weapons and armor, so he'd have to be the equivalent of a Circle's Tranquil without actually being Tranquil. The more I think about it, the more both attitudes towards magic and actual dangers of magic appear to be influenced by culture. 

[EmperorSahlertz]

Ieldra2 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
We don't know what a clan does then. Personally I hope that the clan gets rid of the untrained mage, since that would fit into the dark themes of Dragon Age. But it might be handled differently by the individual clans.

I don't think training as a mage and training as a keeper are so closely linked that you can't have the former without the latter. Mage training, after all, is a necessity for any mageborn, as opposed to keeper training. Also, don't you get the impression that elven craft is often somewhat magical? Varathorn can make enchanted weapons and armor, so he'd have to be the equivalent of a Circle's Tranquil without actually being Tranquil. The more I think about it, the more both attitudes towards magic and actual dangers of magic appear to be influenced by culture. 

Dwarves can also make enchanted items, and they certainly aren't mages. I'm sure the Dalish craft has some magical properties to it, but I don't think that you have to be a mage for it. Mages are supposed to be exceedingly rare amongst the Dalish, and if you had to be a mage to craft their items, I'd have a hard time seeing how mages could be in short supply for the Dalish, since Zathrian's clan alone would have at elast 4 mages then.

I believe that the Keeper would be too busy trainning the First, so that he wouldn't really ahve time to train any other mage fully. This is why the mages who are not to become First of the clan, are given to other clans. However, if there is no need for the mage, we simply have no idea what happens then.

[dragonflight288]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

@TheKomandorShepard
Elora isn't a mage.

Well she throw fireball at my warden if i remember correctly of course it may be gamplay but changing character class is serious matter especially mage.

She did? Ah well, I sided with the werewolves against the Dalish only once, and that's a long time ago. OK, apparently she is a mage.

We know from Zathrian's first that she had to compete against others in the clan to be the first, and so we know that the Dalish have more than two mages per clan, beyond the Keeper and the First.

Chances are, the other mages learn from the Keeper how to control their magic, but they aren't learning all the Dalish ways and histories, and may be hunters like others in the clan, or storytellers, or craftsmen, or whatever, but have to practice their magic to learn control. There is no evidence to support this theory, but neither is there evdience against it. All we know is that the Dalish have more than two mages per clan if Lanaya had to compete to become the First.

Mages in the Clan who are not accepted as the First, or if the Keeper already got a First, is given to other clans, who are in need of a First. I believe Merrill talks about this.

As are non-mages in some cases to prevent in-breeding.

It's perfectly logical to believe some clans may have more mages than other clans, and one clan may actually ahve more members than others as they accept city-elves or gain more members through child-birth over the decade before the clans meet, where they exchange knowledge and some clan members as needed. And since Dalish clans are constantly hunted by the templars and are often regarded with a great deal of prejudice and phobia by the common folk, it also shouldn't be uncommon to find a clan lose its mages to a mob or templars, or even be destroyed or ravaged in battle or natural (or magical) disasters.

But mages still need to learn to control their powers, and again, there is no evidence to that suggests clans that have more than two mages (and the clans go ten years before meeting each other) don't teach mages that aren't keepers or firsts how to control their power. I think it's closer to a necessity, and then when the clans meet, that clan may lose some of its mages to a clan in greater need of them.

[Medhia Nox]

@Ieldra2: See! You are keeping statistics!

At least you're not prone to hyperbole.

As for reading minds - I'm only a hobbyist.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 18 juillet 2013 - 03:34 .

[Ieldra]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
We don't know what a clan does then. Personally I hope that the clan gets rid of the untrained mage, since that would fit into the dark themes of Dragon Age. But it might be handled differently by the individual clans.

I don't think training as a mage and training as a keeper are so closely linked that you can't have the former without the latter. Mage training, after all, is a necessity for any mageborn, as opposed to keeper training. Also, don't you get the impression that elven craft is often somewhat magical? Varathorn can make enchanted weapons and armor, so he'd have to be the equivalent of a Circle's Tranquil without actually being Tranquil. The more I think about it, the more both attitudes towards magic and actual dangers of magic appear to be influenced by culture. 

Dwarves can also make enchanted items, and they certainly aren't mages. I'm sure the Dalish craft has some magical properties to it, but I don't think that you have to be a mage for it. Mages are supposed to be exceedingly rare amongst the Dalish, and if you had to be a mage to craft their items, I'd have a hard time seeing how mages could be in short supply for the Dalish, since Zathrian's clan alone would have at elast 4 mages then.

Dwarves use lyrium for their enchantments, which other races can't handle. The Tranquil use their magical talent. From what we know, elves can't handle lyrium any better than humans so their enchantments are likely to require magical talent.  As for mages being in short supply or not, a sample of one clan tells you exactly nothing, and the fact that Dalish clans exchange surplus mages among each other doesn't tell you how often that happens. All we can infer is that it isn't likely to be exceedingly rare, otherwise there would be no need for such a tradition.

I believe that the Keeper would be too busy trainning the First, so that he wouldn't really ahve time to train any other mage fully.

This is an ad-hoc rationaliazation based on no evidence at all. I could make a rather plausible argument why teaching in a small group tends to be more effective, but I guess that would go too far OT. There's simply no evidence at all that the Dalish haven't got any surplus mages or that they dispose of them somehow, while there is actual evidence that they do, in fact, have surplus mages and do not dispose of them.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 19 juillet 2013 - 06:00 .

[TheKomandorShepard]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Dwarves use lyrium for their enchantments, which other races can't handle. The Tranquil use their magical talent. From what we know, elves can't handle lyrium any better than humans so their enchantments are likely to require magical talent.  As for mages being in short supply or not, a sample of one clan tells you exactly nothing, and the fact that Dalish clans exchange surplus mages among each other doesn't tell you how often that happens. All we can infer is that it isn't likely to be exceedingly rare, otherwise there would be no need for such a tradition.

Tranquil can't use magical talents because they are cut from the fade , if i remember correctly tranquil use lyrium to enchant ,immunity to lyrium have something common with weak or lack connection to the fade.It's hard to say if clans use enchanted items or just magical materials like wade. 

[Lotion Soronarr]

Given the rarity of mages, one would have to wonder how many mages a Dalish clan does have to begin with.
I never got an impression that a Dalish clan is big, especially given their nomadic nature. Are there any canon numbers on the size of a Dalish clan?

[EmperorSahlertz]

Ieldra2 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
We don't know what a clan does then. Personally I hope that the clan gets rid of the untrained mage, since that would fit into the dark themes of Dragon Age. But it might be handled differently by the individual clans.

I don't think training as a mage and training as a keeper are so closely linked that you can't have the former without the latter. Mage training, after all, is a necessity for any mageborn, as opposed to keeper training. Also, don't you get the impression that elven craft is often somewhat magical? Varathorn can make enchanted weapons and armor, so he'd have to be the equivalent of a Circle's Tranquil without actually being Tranquil. The more I think about it, the more both attitudes towards magic and actual dangers of magic appear to be influenced by culture. 

Dwarves can also make enchanted items, and they certainly aren't mages. I'm sure the Dalish craft has some magical properties to it, but I don't think that you have to be a mage for it. Mages are supposed to be exceedingly rare amongst the Dalish, and if you had to be a mage to craft their items, I'd have a hard time seeing how mages could be in short supply for the Dalish, since Zathrian's clan alone would have at elast 4 mages then.

Dwarves use lyrium for their enchantments, which other races can't handle. The Tranquil use their magical talent. From what we know, elves can't handle lyrium any better than humans so their enchantments are likely to require magical talent.  As for mages being in short supply or not, a sample of one clan tells you exactly nothing, and the fact that Dalish clans exchange surplus mages among each other doesn't tell you how often that happens. All we can infer is that it isn't likely to be exceedingly rare, otherwise there would be no need for such a tradition. 

Tranquils can't work magic, since they are cut off from the Fade. However their unique condition, allows them to concentrate to an extreme level on their work, which allows them to work Lyrium, like the dwarves, and make runes. Mages craft their items using their magical talents, the Formari sells these enchanted items. However, you don't need to be able to work lyrium, or have magical talents to be able to create magical items, as is proven by Wade. He creates lots of magical items, with no magical talents to speak of. The magical qualities of these items, comes from the materials being worked on.

We know from developers that mages are becomming exceedingly rare amongst the Dalish, and the very fact that the Clans have to exchange mages between them, shows us that the they are rare amongst the Dalish. There would not be any need for the tradition if mages were common in the clan.

Ieldra2 wrote...

I believe that the Keeper would be too busy trainning the First, so that he wouldn't really ahve time to train any other mage fully.

This is an ad-hoc rationaliazation based on no evidence at all. I could make a rather plausible argument why teaching in a small group tends to be more effective, but I guess that would go too far OT. There's simply no evidence at all that the Dalish haven't got any surplus mages or that they dispose of them somehow, while there is actual evidence that they do, in fact, have surplus mages and do not dispose of them.

The evidence lies in the traditions. If it was common for a clan to have up to 4 mages (read, that I don't think that there are more than two in Zathrian's clan), then there wouldn't be a need for the tradition to exchange mages between clans, since obviously mages would be a common occurence.

And considering how much a First must learn, from tradtions, rituals and history, to magic, spirits and leadership, I don't see how a Keeper should have time to teach anyone else, more than just the absolute basics.

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Mages in the Clan who are not accepted as the First, or if the Keeper already got a First, is given to other clans, who are in need of a First. I believe Merrill talks about this. 

It's more of an issue regarding the templars who hunt down the Dalish clans that explains why there are usually not many mages within a respective clan, and why mages don't use magic where templars might see them, but it's not as though all the clans only have two mages. Lanaya competed with other mages, as dragonflight288 pointed out. Also, there are mages in Zathrian's clan aside from First Lanaya and Keeper Zathrian, and we know that an elven mage was accepted into Ariane's clan (like Aneirin the Healer was by Zathrian's clan).