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[vpacheco1984]

Andraste was a mage and the Chantry has lied to everyone for centuries.

[TheKomandorShepard]

vpacheco1984 wrote...

Andraste was a mage and the Chantry has lied to everyone for centuries.

Even if true it is highly unlikely that devs shows us something more than alternative explanation or subtle hint if andraste was a mage it would destroy maker existence unless they introduce that she was a mage but she have her power from spirit or maker for alternative explanation.

And even if she was mage common peoples will not belive in that you know indoctrination is effective it is like trying tell qunari that qun is a lie.

Modifié par TheKomandorShepard, 26 juillet 2013 - 07:58 .

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Truth be told, in my opinion Andraste being a mage in and of itself changes little about the Chantry's message. I think she appeared to demonstrate miracles beyond what we know mages can do. There's nothing to say she couldn't be a mage and the bride of the Maker. She was still the one who preached caution with magic. Plus the Imperial Chantry may even support the idea.

[vpacheco1984]

Yes she preached cautions with magic but she didn't say anything about locking all mages up and treating them little better than animals until they are need them to make the bad invaders go way.

And if she was a mage it would most likely change how the Chantry treats mages. You know treating them like people instead of pieces of property they can do whatever they want to them.

Modifié par vpacheco1984, 26 juillet 2013 - 08:31 .

[TheKomandorShepard]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Truth be told, in my opinion Andraste being a mage in and of itself changes little about the Chantry's message. I think she appeared to demonstrate miracles beyond what we know mages can do. There's nothing to say she couldn't be a mage and the bride of the Maker. She was still the one who preached caution with magic. Plus the Imperial Chantry may even support the idea.

Well we know nothing about her except what chantry says and that what we found in games.This miracles would not happen at all just chantry says that , peoples belive even in that hawke sleeps on bed made of dragon bones , after few thousands of years truth can be converted on convenient chantry version especially that history is written by the victors.

It wouldnt change anything because simple peoples most would not believe for example go to church and tell that jesus was homosexual (and even if that was turth) they will eat you alive and that would be less insulting than being mage because mages aren't liked by religious peoples with some exceptions and even if you are born as mage in society what is considered as shame and curse , look what happened to Amells and Leandra even as apostate wife had some problems with it as hawke state in Mark of assassins.

vpacheco1984 wrote...
And if she was a mage it would most
likely change how the Chantry treats mages. You know treating them like
people instead of pieces of property they can do whatever they want to
them.

As i said before it is true or not chantry would deny.Peoples don't follow Andraste people follow what chantry says , peoples follow chantry ideas even if chantry says that Andraste ideas.

Modifié par TheKomandorShepard, 26 juillet 2013 - 09:03 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

vpacheco1984 wrote...

Yes she preached cautions with magic but she didn't say anything about locking all mages up and treating them little better than animals until they are need them to make the bad invaders go way.

She didn't have to preach that.
People can reach such common sense conclusions for themselves.

[vpacheco1984]

Well that is true. Though someone else could create another branch of Andrastism. But that could create a holy war. We all know how stupid people can be.

[vpacheco1984]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

vpacheco1984 wrote...

Yes she preached cautions with magic but she didn't say anything about locking all mages up and treating them little better than animals until they are need them to make the bad invaders go way.

She didn't have to preach that.
People can reach such common sense conclusions for themselves.

Oh it you again. It's not common sense. If they didn't treat them like animals they wouldn't be as dangerous as they are in the circles. Besides people took her words and twisted them around to make slavery leagel and sanctioned by Holy Law. And don't say slavery doesn't exsits outside the imperium because it dose. In both Orlaise, the Religious capital of Theadus, and Antiva. So just don't use that tired old excuse.

[TheKomandorShepard]

vpacheco1984 wrote...

Well that is true. Though someone else could create another branch of Andrastism. But that could create a holy war. We all know how stupid people can be.

Well leliana had little different look on the maker they don't treated her good , chantry wants power if someone have chance to take them it that lead to war.It would be very difficult create other religon without huge power and army but well world is now at war chantry may lost their influences but i highly doubt that will fall entirely even one of devs said that chantry will not fall , besides we are in very religious seting we can't spend 5 minutes whitout hearing word maker or Andraste. In other words what chantry says for some 80 % society is ultimate truth so war would be unavoidable becuase society take any chantry excuse. 

Modifié par TheKomandorShepard, 26 juillet 2013 - 11:03 .

[vpacheco1984]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

vpacheco1984 wrote...

Well that is true. Though someone else could create another branch of Andrastism. But that could create a holy war. We all know how stupid people can be.

Well leliana had little different look on the maker they don't treated her good , chantry wants power if someone have chance to take them it that lead to war.It would be very difficult create other religon without huge power and army but well world is now at war chantry may lost their influences but i highly doubt that will fall entirely even one of devs said that chantry will not fall , besides we are in very religious seting we can't spend 5 minutes whitout hearing word maker or Andraste. In other words what chantry says for some 80 % society is ultimate truth so war would be unavoidable becuase society take any chantry excuse. 

I'm taking into account that the chantry has all but collapsed so it would be easy for someone to start a new Andrastism branch.

[TheKomandorShepard]

But who inquisitor well if charismatic and intelligent he would have chance but still if he is a mage no chance without purges like in Behlen case no chance. Divine not ,she proved that she is incompetent , one would say that she is idealist but no she is foolish rather than idealistic. Anders well he could have chance but rly i don't see him something more than dark messiah sacrificing many innocent peoples.

[MisterJB]

vpacheco1984 wrote...
Oh it you again. It's not common sense. If they didn't treat them like animals they wouldn't be as dangerous as they are in the circles. Besides people took her words and twisted them around to make slavery leagel and sanctioned by Holy Law. And don't say slavery doesn't exsits outside the imperium because it dose. In both Orlaise, the Religious capital of Theadus, and Antiva. So just don't use that tired old excuse.

Slavery does exist outside of Tevinter but there are still many things wrong with your post.
You claimed that people twisted Andraste's words to make slavery legal and presented Orlais and Antiva as examples. However, slavery is illegal in Orlais "Although slavery is illegal in Orlais,it is still not unheard of for wealthy nobles to own elven slaves. In recent years, though, the laws against slavery have become more strictly
upheld. Empress Celene may have been instrumental in this change of policy." It's also noteworthy to mention how Isabela; who is not orlesian and thus should have no bias; acknowledges orlesian ships hangs slavers whenever they find them.

As for Antiva, while the Crow's recruiting methods could be considered a form of slavery, there is no indication they are sanctioned by antivan authorities be they the merchant princes or the royal family.
Therefore, while slavery may exist outside of Tevinter, it's all very underground whereas in Tevinter, slaves are as easily bought and replaced as a stool.

And, how have these underground slavers twisted Andraste's words? I don't remember the Crows being particularly religious. It is Tevinter that claims that the presence of magic indicates the Maker's favor and that, by that logic, means they are the only fit to rule.
If anyone has twisted Andraste's words to legalize slavery, it was the mages.

Modifié par MisterJB, 26 juillet 2013 - 02:28 .

[TheKomandorShepard]

Blood magic is illegal in Tevinter too but everyone gasping because they use that too. In orlais is that same slavery illegal but still no one cares like that chevaliers rape and kill when they want.And orlais is headquarter chantry but still chantry have many things to say about tevinter but nothing about orlais where practices similar to that from tevinter especially that what orlais do when conquered ferelden.I don't even mention permanently kicking dogs by chantry through the ages.

[MisterJB]

pacheco was not arguing about the presence of slavery in other cultures. He was specifically referring to cultures outside of Tevinter twisting Andraste's words to legalize slavery. By pointing out that slavery is legal only in Tevinter and that the underground group of slavers that do operate outside of Tevinter use no religious belief to justify their actions, I automatically win the debate.

But if you really want to discuss how commonplace slavery might be in Orlais, I can oblige. I just posted a quote claiming that Empress Celene looks harshly on slavery; I can quote Isabela on how "orlesians hang slavers" and also Leliana about how there is no slavery in Orlais.
Therefore, when you claim that in Orlais, no one cares about slavery but use no quotes from the game to support your claim, it's not very convincing. The abuses perpretated by the chevaliers are awful, but they are not slavery.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Leliana is racist trying tell us that elves should be servants when she says there is not slavery in orlais and is indoctrinated by orlesian society even she latter states that she couldn't look at elves something more than servants.Fiona is example that orlais is most corrupted country beside tevinter , even in ferelden elves have no rights and about orlais i don't even mention.Besides leliana herself got crushed in own game she was just young naive bard that was told what marjolene want her to know. If you allow murder in your country it's obvious that rapes and slavery will come with it.Even your leliana in leliana song said that authority allow do bards their job.murderers in orlais are killed to but still they allow it as long they are not caught publicly.

Modifié par TheKomandorShepard, 26 juillet 2013 - 04:10 .

[MisterJB]

Racism does not equal slavery. While Leliana admitted racial inequality is ingrained into orlesian society; as it is in every other country, with humans at the top and elves at the bottom; that is not the same as slavery. Some orlesian nobles do keep unpaid servants but, since Celene became empress, laws against this have become more strictly upheld as the quote aboved mentions.
And murder can exist just fine without slavery.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Of course can but what murder leads to?Corruption and what corruption leads many things like slavery.Of course racism doesn't equal salvery but in orlais yes you think that orlais care about enslaved elves no and Celene doesn't live 1000 years and is very close to loose her power.That laws says something doesn't mean that law isn't just an illusion like law saying that blood mages doesn't exist in tevinter.

Besides if i renember fenris state that there were some rulers want abolish slavery in Tevinter that doesn't mean slavery
disappeared.

Modifié par TheKomandorShepard, 26 juillet 2013 - 04:30 .

[DKJaigen]

Same old story again. i hope that in da3 a reaver army shows up that tortures and kill anyone affiliated to the chantry. it will shut those damnable pro templar fanboys up.

[MisterJB]

Murder doesn't lead to corruption. Murder is a sign of corruption and corruption can exist just fine without slavery.
Honestly, we've completely changed the goalposts. Slavery is not legal in Orlais, slavery is not supported in Orlais (taking into account the fact Isabela ran from orlesian authorities because she was carrying elven slaves and would have been hanged for it) and what slavers do exist did not twist Andraste's words to justify their actions. Period.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Murder leads to crruption try murder someone and next and next and someone will murder because you escape punishment.Of course can exist whitout slavery but for how long what corruption is? You think in country where laws are funny things where even authority constantly break law will be followed don't be ridiculous.And i don't know nothing about isabela fleeing from orlais at least from game but always can be decent guy who want capture slavers.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

There are records of Andraste the miracles that supposedly was the Maker's power but some scholars think they may have been a series of convenient natural disasters. Plus the spirit in the Gauntlet describes them happening.

But not every problem in human nations had anything to do with the Chantry or Andraste. I don't think there is any twisting of Andraste's words to justify slavery, they just practice it as a Tevinter tradition (and economic necessity) in spite of her example. Same with Blood Magic, it's discouraged now, but still practiced, (or at least known), among everyone.

I don't think Andraste being a mage would change much about Chantry practices. For Andrastians, she was the Bride of the Maker first, and whatever else second. So if she were a mage, she would have been a unqiue case. Chantry practices are based on her words of "Magic must serve man and never rule over him" if she was a mage those words wouldn't change.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 26 juillet 2013 - 08:30 .

[TheKomandorShepard]

Records yeah because records can't lie. I always think about spirits in the gauntlet as rather poor source of information i don't even mention that some spirits shows even if character is alive like jowan.Guardian if rather extremely devoted to Andraste so she could easily fool him especially that most non-mages don't know about magic nothing so they could take powerful magic as miracles. I don't even mention that peoples have tendency to see miracles everywhere even if our warden save someone peoples immediately take that as maker miracle or intervention and especially last dialog with unhardened leliana where she states that miracle sponsored by maker.

One could name circle as slavery other not but even who not have to admit that circle is very close that and don't tell that not.Maybe Andraste thought that mages need work and help peoples chantry interpretation is that they should lock them in tower when they will need help take them and next put them again to the prison without a hint of gratitude.

Modifié par TheKomandorShepard, 27 juillet 2013 - 12:17 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

This thread is hilarious.

I like it how the pro-mages just keep tripping and falling face-first into mud.

[Fredward]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

This thread is hilarious.

I like it how the pro-mages just keep tripping and falling face-first into mud.

What's really hilarious is the fact that this insult is coming from you.

[lil yonce]

The Plain Truth -- A Lucrosian mage manifesto.