1656 réponses à ce sujet

[Ieldra]

Youth4Ever wrote...
The Plain Truth -- A Lucrosian mage manifesto.

Very interesting. I especially like the emphasis on practicality, but may I mention that Kamilah makes her position unnecessarily vulnerable with certain assertions she makes. It may take me some time, but a commentary by Eorlin will be forthcoming.

[lil yonce]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Youth4Ever wrote...
The Plain Truth -- A Lucrosian mage manifesto.

Very interesting. I especially like the emphasis on practicality, but may I mention that Kamilah makes her position unnecessarily vulnerable with certain assertions she makes. It may take me some time, but a commentary by Eorlin will be forthcoming.

Did Eorlin wish to join the Libertarians before becoming a Warden? Hehe. Kamilah won't mind taking shots at a Grey Warden mage. It gives her more opportunity to attack Grand Enchanter Fiona, lambast Anders and his actions, and to keep slamming the Libertarians in general.

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 29 juillet 2013 - 08:56 .

[vpacheco1984]

Youth4Ever wrote...

The Plain Truth -- A Lucrosian mage manifesto.

You are suffering from what's called Stockholom syndrom sweetie. I'm sorry you are so brainwashed into thinking the circle as it is now is a good thing. Because only mages who are from rich families are allowed to have any kind of contact. And that's only after their family has greased a lot of palms. Oh yes mages have some many rights like mages are allowed to outside of the circle oh wait they aren't, if they step foot outside the circle without a whole platoon of templars with their swords at their necks are cut down without a second thought. Also for your information Libertarians aren't blood mages or want to deal with demons, that was just stupid and narrow mined but I think most loyalist are anyway so you must be pretty normal. Oh here is something you will agree with. Just so you know this is how 99% of the clergy and templars feel about mages and I'm sure you agree with this 100%:

Mages. Of course you will try to correlate the dangers you pose to that of ordinary people, even if the correlation you provide makes no logical sense. It's like comparing a man with a sword, and a baby with a spoon. One can argue that either could potentially be a danger, but to correlate them as equal in their potential is irrational. When you are in the wrong, emotional arguments are your only recourse. 

If it helps, I take no twisted pleasure at hunting you down and killing you. In fact, it haunts my nights, as I know many of you wish nothing more than to be responsible members of society. But, I grit my teeth and continue to do so until all but a handful of you are put to death. I do this, despite the anguish these deaths cause, because I know the vaguries of men (and women), and the type of power you posess only requires a few irresponsible souls to devestate the world, as we are seeing happen all around us today. 

The argument about the greater good never falls well upon the ears of those who must be sacrificed, so I do not expect you to understand, or accept this. You will, rightly so, fight for your survival. I, and others like me, will fight for humanity's. 

I can not say who will win this fight, though I obviously hope it is me and mine. If killing all but the handful of you that can be easily controlled and used as a weapon was an easy task, the task would not have to be done in the first place. 

I can promise you that if me and mine are the victors in this brutal war, we will ensure that the handful of mages allowed to live in future generations will be brought up completely seperate from humanity. They will as be like animals, tamed to perform as weapons, if needed. No higher sense of self, and no despair at their intrinsic seperation from the rest of society. No grasp of language, no art, no history. It is a gift I promise to you, so that you may die in peaceful knowledge that there is a potential light at the end of the tunnel that is the heavy weight all mages currently face today. 

[lil yonce]

^Was that response in character?

[vpacheco1984]

Youth4Ever wrote...

^Was that response in character?

Yes. A Libertarian whoes doesn't give their name to self hating mage apologists.

[lil yonce]

Then mission accomplished! Everything your Libertarian just said validates Kamilah's manifesto.

[MisterJB]

...where exactly is Stockholm in Thedas?

Modifié par MisterJB, 30 juillet 2013 - 12:20 .

[vpacheco1984]

Kamilah

^That you hate yourself and wish the templars would run you and every other mage throw then yes. Your manifesto is validated.

As stated not all libertarians are blood mages or make deals with demons, in fact most of them avoid both like the plague. Since most libertarians can think for themselves and have a stronger will the Loyalist who have allowed their will and self-worth be whittled down to nothing fall to demons more often, well mostly they commit suicide by templar or willingly let everything they are be ripped away from them.

Oh yes and I'm sure I know how you and your kind were allowed out of the tower more often, it wasn't because they proved themselves it because you and ones like you spread your legs for the templars for extra privileges.

Modifié par vpacheco1984, 30 juillet 2013 - 12:27 .

[vpacheco1984]

MisterJB wrote...

...where exactly is Stockholm in Thedas?

Lets say Orlais.

[vpacheco1984]

kjdhgfiliuhwe wrote...

Mages. Of course you will try to correlate the dangers you pose to that of ordinary people, even if the correlation you provide makes no logical sense. It's like comparing a man with a sword, and a baby with a spoon. One can argue that either could potentially be a danger, but to correlate them as equal in their potential is irrational. When you are in the wrong, emotional arguments are your only recourse. 

If it helps, I take no twisted pleasure at hunting you down and killing you. In fact, it haunts my nights, as I know many of you wish nothing more than to be responsible members of society. But, I grit my teeth and continue to do so until all but a handful of you are put to death. I do this, despite the anguish these deaths cause, because I know the vaguries of men (and women), and the type of power you posess only requires a few irresponsible souls to devestate the world, as we are seeing happen all around us today. 

The argument about the greater good never falls well upon the ears of those who must be sacrificed, so I do not expect you to understand, or accept this. You will, rightly so, fight for your survival. I, and others like me, will fight for humanity's. 

I can not say who will win this fight, though I obviously hope it is me and mine. If killing all but the handful of you that can be easily controlled and used as a weapon was an easy task, the task would not have to be done in the first place. 

I can promise you that if me and mine are the victors in this brutal war, we will ensure that the handful of mages allowed to live in future generations will be brought up completely seperate from humanity. They will as be like animals, tamed to perform as weapons, if needed. No higher sense of self, and no despair at their intrinsic seperation from the rest of society. No grasp of language, no art, no history. It is a gift I promise to you, so that you may die in peaceful knowledge that there is a potential light at the end of the tunnel that is the heavy weight all mages currently face today. 

Kamilah this is your manifest in a nut shell. This is what will be come if you and your ilk win. All we mages except for a few who are kept as weapons who have no self awareness then an animal will be whiped out. Any mageling found will be killed in the street like animals unless they need to replace a mage. This is what you and mages like you want to happen.

Modifié par vpacheco1984, 30 juillet 2013 - 12:31 .

[lil yonce]

vpacheco1984 wrote...
Youth4Ever
^That you hate yourself and wish the templars would run you and every other mage throw then yes. Your manifesto is validated. As stated not all libertarians are blood mages or make deals with demons, in fact most of them avoid both like the plague. Since most libertarians can think for themselves and have a stronger will the Loyalist who have allowed their will and self-worth be whittled down to nothing fall to demons more often, well mostly they commit suicide by templar or willingly let everything they are be ripped away from them. Oh yes and I'm sure I know how you and your kind were allowed out of the tower more often, it wasn't because they proved themselves it because you and ones like you spread your legs for the templars for extra privileges.

Okay... is this still in character? And I don't think you read the manifesto, and if you did, you're Libertarian is playing right into every accusation and stereotype presented about Libertarians. But, by all means, keep validating it.

[vpacheco1984]

You're proving how narrow minded and self hating you are. The sad thing is you have deluded yourself into believing other wise. 

After all it was the templars who attacked a peaceful meeting, they would reather see us dead then having any freedom.

Modifié par vpacheco1984, 30 juillet 2013 - 12:42 .

[vpacheco1984]

To Youth4Ever from vpacheco1984

I should have looked more closely at your banners. That explains alot about you. You support a bigoted psychopath who like you wants all mages either dead or mindless animals. A person did who allowed and propbrbly incouraged her templars to rape, toture, murder, and tranquilize mages oh yeah let not for get about all the mundane she had executed who helped mages.

 You agree with kjdhgfiliuhwe 100%. You are a truly sick individual.

Modifié par vpacheco1984, 30 juillet 2013 - 12:54 .

[TheKomandorShepard]

Vpacheco1984 are you role-playing a mage here? xD

[vpacheco1984]

vpacheco1984 wrote...

To Youth4Ever from vpacheco1984

I should have looked more closely at your banners. That explains alot about you. You support a bigoted psychopath who like you wants all mages either dead or mindless animals. A person did who allowed and propbrbly incouraged her templars to rape, toture, murder, and tranquilize mages oh yeah let not for get about all the mundane she had executed who helped mages.

 You agree with kjdhgfiliuhwe 100%. You are a truly sick individual.

^This one no.

The other yes.

[Ieldra]

Youth4Ever wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Youth4Ever wrote...
The Plain Truth -- A Lucrosian mage manifesto.

Very interesting. I especially like the emphasis on practicality, but may I mention that Kamilah makes her position unnecessarily vulnerable with certain assertions she makes. It may take me some time, but a commentary by Eorlin will be forthcoming.

Did Eorlin wish to join the Libertarians before becoming a Warden? Hehe. Kamilah won't mind taking shots at a Grey Warden mage. It gives her more opportunity to attack Grand Enchanter Fiona, lambast Anders and his actions, and to keep slamming the Libertarians in general.

No, he didn't. In fact, he was a Circle supporter at the start of the story. His experiences after he left the Circle - as described in the second paragraph of the manifesto - made him change his mind. However, he was never an Andrastean.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Read the Mage Manifesto. Sign me on!

[Ieldra]

Since there appears to be a new round in the everlasting mage vs. templar debate on this forum, I thought I'd bring this thread to the fore again for the new people. What I wrote in the OP is what it is all about for me. It's not just about freedom for mages, but all the aspects of the world that are connected to them.

It is interesting though, that while my/Eorlin's original manifesto was written as an in-world document to bring mages together, the rather more inflammatory response by Youth4Ever/Kamilah appears to be written to drive a wedge between them. An agent of the templars probably couldn't do it much better, which of course raises questions about the real agenda behind it....taking it strictly in-world, of course.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 21 octobre 2013 - 09:08 .

[Jorji Costava]

Very nice read. All I have to add to it is that maybe it would have been a bit funnier if you had done it in the fashion of Jonathan Swift's A Modest Proposal.

As for myself, I might be one of the few posters here who doesn't have a huge stake in the Mage/Templar issue. Generally, I'm more interested in looking at things from a more "meta" perspective. Instead of asking, "Who's right? The mages or the templars?", I'm more interested in asking things like, "How does all of this wacky and fantastical mage/templar stuff that doesn't exist function as a commentary on things that do exist?"

For instance, does the basic setup have anything interesting to suggest about real world inequalities, national self-determination, just wary theory, etc.? And though I hate to say it (although I can't hate to say it that much, seeing as I'm posting it on the internet), the mage/templar scenario doesn't completely work for me, particularly with respect to the first of those three questions. The dalish/city elf scenario is more successful in this regard IMO.

[Ieldra]

osbornep wrote...
Very nice read. All I have to add to it is that maybe it would have been a bit funnier if you had done it in the fashion of Jonathan Swift's A Modest Proposal.

LOL. Indeed it may have, but I didn't aim for sarcasm, the occasional bits that went in notwithstanding, and as a non-native speaker, I probably wouldn't get that right anyway. 

As for myself, I might be one of the few posters here who doesn't have a huge stake in the Mage/Templar issue. Generally, I'm more interested in looking at things from a more "meta" perspective. Instead of asking, "Who's right? The mages or the templars?", I'm more interested in asking things like, "How does all of this wacky and fantastical mage/templar stuff that doesn't exist function as a commentary on things that do exist?"

For instance, does the basic setup have anything interesting to suggest about real world inequalities, national self-determination, just wary theory, etc.? And though I hate to say it (although I can't hate to say it that much, seeing as I'm posting it on the internet), the mage/templar scenario doesn't completely work for me, particularly with respect to the first of those three questions. The dalish/city elf scenario is more successful in this regard IMO.

I don't think fantastic stories should be written with the goal of saying something specific about the real world. If they do as a byproduct, if they're "applicable" that way (referring to Tolkien's statements about allegory vs. applicability), that's good, but the "application" is something I do as the reader/viewer/player. It should be the goal of the writer to write an entertaining and emotionally moving story (that does not rule out tragedy btw).

Oddly, recent Bioware games provide me with just the right examples. The DA games never tried to force their themes on me. I interpret the mage/templar conflict as being about safety vs. freedom, and the qunari/Tevinter one as about individualism vs. collectivism, but nowhere does the story itself even suggest these themes. Contrast this with ME, especially in ME3, where we're not only forced into a heroic sacrifice, but words are put in the protagonist's mouth - a protagonist I play - as to the meaning of certain events, and where the story had a strong traditionalist vibe, converging - in the original endings - to mythological neo-luddite Garden Eden imagery regardless of which option you chose.

As for the limits of applicability of the mage/templar conflict, there are no people with built-in mage-like powers and dangers in the real world. In the real world, you can solve similar problems in a usually satisfactory manner by taking the weapons away. You can even do this pre-emptively, and apart from some gun-crazy cultures people won't complain too loudly because you're not infringing on anything perceived as a human right. If you look for applicable story elements, of course the mage/templar conflict won't work that well for you.

[Jorji Costava]

Ieldra2 wrote...

It should be the goal of the writer to write an entertaining and emotionally moving story (that does not rule out tragedy btw).

I'd go even further than this. The goal of the writer should be to create the story he or she most wants to make. When asked if he felt Stalker was too slow and boring, director Andrei Tarkovsky replied, "The film needs to be slower and duller at the start so that the viewers who walked into the wrong theatre have time to leave before the main action starts."

I completely agree with you regarding the point about applicability vs. allegory; I certainly don't mean to suggest that any written work needs to have life lessons, be a point-for-point allegory with any real world situation, etc. (although even Dragon Age had a tendency to lapse into this occasionally, especially with "The Tranquil Solution"). Still, even from that point of view I've got some hang-ups with the mage/templar setup, even hand waving the question of whether or not there are real-world analogues for superpowers and such. But maybe that's just residual from my dislike for X-Men.

Briefly put, mages seem to get the benefits that come from being completely superior in ability to mundanes, and they also get the 'benefits' (such as they are) of victim status. And it's that combination of elitism and victim politics, that uncomfortable duality of "We're better than you, but you still have to feel sorry for us" that just doesn't do it for me. I guess I just want my underdogs to actually be underdogs.

[Ieldra]

osbornep wrote...
Briefly put, mages seem to get the benefits that come from being completely superior in ability to mundanes, and they also get the 'benefits' (such as they are) of victim status. And it's that combination of elitism and victim politics, that uncomfortable duality of "We're better than you, but you still have to feel sorry for us" that just doesn't do it for me. I guess I just want my underdogs to actually be underdogs.

The mages aren't written to be exactly underdogs. As for elitism, that's the belief you're entitled to more than others because you belong to the elite, regardless of how "elite" is defined. Mages only want what others have: a reasonable level of freedom. Most mages, anyway.

[Ieldra]

osbornep wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

It should be the goal of the writer to write an entertaining and emotionally moving story (that does not rule out tragedy btw).

I'd go even further than this. The goal of the writer should be to create the story he or she most wants to make.

That's not always possible though, considering the economic pressures of game development. Also, you might end up with something like ME3, which shows all the signs of being dominated by a specific vision at the expense of player agency. Interactive storytelling is different in this regard, if you want player choice to be significant. A classic writer can say "I want this or that kind of character development for my protagonist." ME3 is what happens when that's tried in a game with signficant roleplaying aspects.

That's why I'm very relieved that Mark Darrah (I think it was him) said they wanted to give the player more control, implying that this was different than what they did in the past.

[dragonflight288]

Ieldra2 wrote...

osbornep wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

It should be the goal of the writer to write an entertaining and emotionally moving story (that does not rule out tragedy btw).

I'd go even further than this. The goal of the writer should be to create the story he or she most wants to make.

That's not always possible though, considering the economic pressures of game development. Also, you might end up with something like ME3, which shows all the signs of being dominated by a specific vision at the expense of player agency. Interactive storytelling is different in this regard, if you want player choice to be significant. A classic writer can say "I want this or that kind of character development for my protagonist." ME3 is what happens when that's tried in a game with signficant roleplaying aspects.

That's why I'm very relieved that Mark Darrah (I think it was him) said they wanted to give the player more control, implying that this was different than what they did in the past.

that was reassuring.

Will likely make it extremely painful for the devs in future game developments in order to maintain continuity, however.

[Medhia Nox]

@Ieldra2: And if it were possible without Tranquility - would your mage give up magic for "equality"?

Otherwise - I feel that any call for an equal playing field is disingenuous. For a mage to want whatever everyone else has - AND magic - is not equality.

Maybe I'll give a response to your RP - I'll have to decide if Aequatarian or Isolationist fit better.