1656 réponses à ce sujet

[Medhia Nox]

@Xilizhra: I didn't say the demon problem wouldn't be resolved. The demon problem is what Inquisition is about - not the Mage/Templar conflict.

Which is precisely why I believe both these factions will be taking a back seat and will be subject to destruction.

I'd personally love a post-apocalyptic fantasy.

What I am worried about - is Dragon Age becoming completely generic. Destroying the Templars and having a Mage paradise would be exactly that. I've seen that world before.

[Xilizhra]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Xilizhra: I didn't say the demon problem wouldn't be resolved. The demon problem is what Inquisition is about - not the Mage/Templar conflict.

Which is precisely why I believe both these factions will be taking a back seat and will be subject to destruction.

I'd personally love a post-apocalyptic fantasy.

What I am worried about - is Dragon Age becoming completely generic. Destroying the Templars and having a Mage paradise would be exactly that. I've seen that world before.

It won't be paradise. There's still the qunari to deal with and probably one last hurrah from the darkspawn. You'll have plenty of conflict for the rest of the series, fear not.

Also... everyone being a mage, for instance, isn't generic either.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 25 octobre 2013 - 05:13 .

[dragonflight288]

Xilizhra wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Xilizhra: I didn't say the demon problem wouldn't be resolved. The demon problem is what Inquisition is about - not the Mage/Templar conflict.

Which is precisely why I believe both these factions will be taking a back seat and will be subject to destruction.

I'd personally love a post-apocalyptic fantasy.

What I am worried about - is Dragon Age becoming completely generic. Destroying the Templars and having a Mage paradise would be exactly that. I've seen that world before.

It won't be paradise. There's still the qunari to deal with and probably one last hurrah from the darkspawn. You'll have plenty of conflict for the rest of the series, fear not.

Also... everyone being a mage, for instance, isn't generic either.

Two last hurrah's from the darkspawn.

There are two more archdemons to kill, after all.

[Xilizhra]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Xilizhra: I didn't say the demon problem wouldn't be resolved. The demon problem is what Inquisition is about - not the Mage/Templar conflict.

Which is precisely why I believe both these factions will be taking a back seat and will be subject to destruction.

I'd personally love a post-apocalyptic fantasy.

What I am worried about - is Dragon Age becoming completely generic. Destroying the Templars and having a Mage paradise would be exactly that. I've seen that world before.

It won't be paradise. There's still the qunari to deal with and probably one last hurrah from the darkspawn. You'll have plenty of conflict for the rest of the series, fear not.

Also... everyone being a mage, for instance, isn't generic either.

Two last hurrah's from the darkspawn.

There are two more archdemons to kill, after all.

Not another Blight. Something more, something to do with the Black City and the source of the taint.

[Medhia Nox]

I enjoy Dragon Age because it presents fantasy tropes with - what I feel - have been unique spins.

Undoing them - especially the mages and the elves - would make the whole world much more generic.

Oppressive armies marching to battle the morally progressive free loving people's of Thedas who have worked out all their problems in the span of 10 years... is boring to me.

[cjones91]

Morocco Mole wrote...

If I was a writer of the game, and wanted to make the game as good as possible while also making it as replayable as possible (thereby increasing sales and enjoyment,) I wouldn't have the leadership of either faction be extremists, but instead passionate about where they stand, and their stance completely contradicts the other leader's position to the point of violence, and the gamer in turn could agree or disagree.

I would also have the Inquistor not get involved, directly at least, with either side except in the cases where either side helps/hinders the Inquisitors own goals.

So basically what DA2 should have been in the first place

But it's likely to happen if the mages win.The mundanes would go to
extreme methods to control them which would result in bloody conflicts
that last years.

So basically you complained about the templars re-instituting the "status quo" while you in fact want the same status quo that we've had for two games now. Mages and mundanes fighting.

No,I'm simply saying a mage victory would have severe consequences instead of being the paradise some are worried about.

[dragonflight288]

Xilizhra wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Xilizhra: I didn't say the demon problem wouldn't be resolved. The demon problem is what Inquisition is about - not the Mage/Templar conflict.

Which is precisely why I believe both these factions will be taking a back seat and will be subject to destruction.

I'd personally love a post-apocalyptic fantasy.

What I am worried about - is Dragon Age becoming completely generic. Destroying the Templars and having a Mage paradise would be exactly that. I've seen that world before.

It won't be paradise. There's still the qunari to deal with and probably one last hurrah from the darkspawn. You'll have plenty of conflict for the rest of the series, fear not.

Also... everyone being a mage, for instance, isn't generic either.

Two last hurrah's from the darkspawn.

There are two more archdemons to kill, after all.

Not another Blight. Something more, something to do with the Black City and the source of the taint.

That could be the Black City, it could be an ancient dwarven experiment with lyrium, it could be a mixture of both.

But it still would be fascinating.

Personally, though, I would actually prefer if the origin of the darkspawn is left ambiguous, we get enough evidence to support 2 or 3 different theories, but lack concrete proof on which is the correct origin.

[Xilizhra]

Medhia Nox wrote...

I enjoy Dragon Age because it presents fantasy tropes with - what I feel - have been unique spins.

Undoing them - especially the mages and the elves - would make the whole world much more generic.

Oppressive armies marching to battle the morally progressive free loving people's of Thedas who have worked out all their problems in the span of 10 years... is boring to me.

Neither mages nor elves are unique in the slightest. Elves being a dynamically resurgent society contrasted against calcified human power structures, on the other hand, would actually be relatively unique.

[Reaverwind]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Xilizhra: I didn't say the demon problem wouldn't be resolved. The demon problem is what Inquisition is about - not the Mage/Templar conflict.

Which is precisely why I believe both these factions will be taking a back seat and will be subject to destruction.

I'd personally love a post-apocalyptic fantasy.

What I am worried about - is Dragon Age becoming completely generic. Destroying the Templars and having a Mage paradise would be exactly that. I've seen that world before.

Yep. Although there are game series which are painting a less rosy picture in recent years, surprisingly. Witcher 2 does a wonderful job of showing a world becoming increasingly intolerant of magic users (who add fuel to the fire by engaging in plots to usurp control of the politics in multiple countries).

Xilizhra wrote...

It won't be paradise. There's still the qunari to deal with and probably one last hurrah from the darkspawn. You'll have plenty of conflict for the rest of the series, fear not.

Also... everyone being a mage, for instance, isn't generic either.

Sure, let's rip off the Elder Scrolls, while we're at it.

Modifié par Reaverwind, 25 octobre 2013 - 05:23 .

[Medhia Nox]

@Xilizhra: What other fantasy world do elves live in human designed ghettos?

I'm not talking Dalish - I can't stand them. They're a stark contrast to what I feel is an interesting design on elves.

As for mages - what other mages are born with their magic, susceptible to demonic possession and can travel into an alternate realm? It's far "less" unique - but I like the mix with the Templars and the general "Gothic horror" feel of demonic possession of people when you least expect it... etc.

Mages walking around like D&D sorcerers (sorcerers in D&D are born with magic - not wizards) and everyone just SO impressed with their awesome powers and more "Mage praise" genres... would be horrible in my opinion.

The Thedas mages are the most imbecilic mages I've read about... they're totally unworthy of any awe or respect... they're just mutants too stupid to realize they're dangerous - if it happens, I admit, I'll be a little depressed.

[Hellion Rex]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Xilizhra: I didn't say the demon problem wouldn't be resolved. The demon problem is what Inquisition is about - not the Mage/Templar conflict.

Which is precisely why I believe both these factions will be taking a back seat and will be subject to destruction.

I'd personally love a post-apocalyptic fantasy.

What I am worried about - is Dragon Age becoming completely generic. Destroying the Templars and having a Mage paradise would be exactly that. I've seen that world before.

It won't be paradise. There's still the qunari to deal with and probably one last hurrah from the darkspawn. You'll have plenty of conflict for the rest of the series, fear not.

Also... everyone being a mage, for instance, isn't generic either.

Two last hurrah's from the darkspawn.

There are two more archdemons to kill, after all.

Not another Blight. Something more, something to do with the Black City and the source of the taint.

That could be the Black City, it could be an ancient dwarven experiment with lyrium, it could be a mixture of both.

But it still would be fascinating.

Personally, though, I would actually prefer if the origin of the darkspawn is left ambiguous, we get enough evidence to support 2 or 3 different theories, but lack concrete proof on which is the correct origin.

But I want to know what the heck is going on!!!!! All the mystery makes the game awesome, but drives me nuts cause I have so many different theories of what actually is happening.

[LobselVith8]

dragonflight288 wrote...

If I was a writer of the game, and wanted to make the game as good as possible while also making it as replayable as possible (thereby increasing sales and enjoyment,) I wouldn't have the leadership of either faction be extremists, but instead passionate about where they stand, and their stance completely contradicts the other leader's position to the point of violence, and the gamer in turn could agree or disagree.

That would be good. Three dimensional leaders would be much more appealing than what we were previously given, as well as the option to voice our own opinion without being restricted by the developers refusing to allow us to retort to respective characters we might disagree with (which happened with Meredith and Tallis).

dragonflight288 wrote...

I would also have the Inquistor not get involved, directly at least, with either side except in the cases where either side helps/hinders the Inquisitors own goals.

I don't know about that. I rather enjoyed having my Surana Warden aid the Mages Collective, and my apostate Hawke help the mage underground. I like getting involved, and having an impact on the world. Helping Bhelen gain the throne, thereby helping the casteless gain more freedoms, or helping save the last of the Harrowmont line with a character who had none of the experiences of my Warden. I'd rather like the choice to get involved, although I would respect it being optional for people (or characters) who simply aren't invested in the war.

dragonflight288 wrote...

And then I'd have the qunari or the darkspawn attack, and the Inquisitor has to somehow force a truce between the them in order to fight the thread, even if that truce is temporary, but ultimately we would still be forced to eliminate all the extremist factions of both/one side(s). That would leave the ending ambiguous enough for replayability and offer the gamer enough choice about the ending and who comes out ahead by the end, and that would make it easier to write the next game/novel. 

Personally, I wouldn't be interested in pursuing a compromise between the mages and the templars. I would rather help one side achieve victory over the other.

[Xilizhra]

@Xilizhra: What other fantasy world do elves live in human designed ghettos?

I'm not talking Dalish - I can't stand them. They're a stark contrast to what I feel is an interesting design on elves.

Ah, so you just broke your own statement, especially since the city elves have far less lore or focus than the Dalish.

As for mages - what other mages are born with their magic, susceptible to demonic possession and can travel into an alternate realm? It's far "less" unique - but I like the mix with the Templars and the general "Gothic horror" feel of demonic possession of people when you least expect it... etc.

Warhammer, for starters.

Mages walking around like D&D sorcerers (sorcerers in D&D are born with magic - not wizards) and everyone just SO impressed with their awesome powers and more "Mage praise" genres... would be horrible in my opinion.

They don't have to be. I just don't want them to be lost in horrific limbo.

[Medhia Nox]

@Xilizhra: I'm not really going to argue my opinion with you.

Warhammer is very different from Dragon Age however - though yes, there are some basic similarities (the major difference is that the majority of mages in Warhammer aren't delusional about the dangers of Chaos).

Whatever the case - I simply don't believe either of these factions is going to be handed the upper hand.

I can fully see an apocalyptic downspin to the end of the Dragon Age - with a rebuilding effort that will allow Bioware to redesign all factions how they choose.

Mage victory only allows a handful of redesign options - some, I would be very uninterested in.

Though I do not support the Templars - I'd actually support Templar victory for storytelling purposes.

But in the end - I'd like to see them both crumble.

Optimally - some nations will be extraordinarily hostile to mages - while others will have more liberty - and the Chantry will not hold sway over them all. Some nations will host Templars - while others keep a balance - and others become demon infested mage hell-holes.

Sorry - can't keep positive about the Thedas mages governing themselves... I haven't seen any reason to think they'd do it without disaster. I respect Tevinter for that reason alone. Their draconian expectations of their mage society.

[Lotion Soronarr]

cjones91 wrote...

Morocco Mole wrote...

cjones91 wrote...
But nothing will change if the templars win either,the mages have to win in some victory in order for the story to progress.

How so? 

Everything had been leading up to the mages breaking away from the Chantry ever since DAO,all of the events in the story would be rendered null and void if the templars win.

No they won't. The mage-templa thing is only a small part of Thedas and not all thing shave to radicly change or change at all.
How many failed rebellions and revolutions have there been in human history? Thousands. And the world keeps on turning.

Yes it would,returning to the status quo would be undoing everything Bioware had been setting up so far within the story.

And you are only saying that because you think Bio has been settting up a mage victory.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 25 octobre 2013 - 05:41 .

[Wulfram]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Xilizhra: What other fantasy world do elves live in human designed ghettos?
 

The Kingdoms of Thorn and Bone I think.  Though they're called Sefry or something.

Modifié par Wulfram, 25 octobre 2013 - 05:42 .

[Medhia Nox]

@Lotion Soronnar: Even the successful ones didn't change the world as much as they'd like to think they did.

Revolutions for the ideals of freedom have ended in genocide, slavery and prejudice before. I don't see why it can't for Thedas.

[Xilizhra]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Xilizhra: I'm not really going to argue my opinion with you.

Warhammer is very different from Dragon Age however - though yes, there are some basic similarities (the major difference is that the majority of mages in Warhammer aren't delusional about the dangers of Chaos).

Whatever the case - I simply don't believe either of these factions is going to be handed the upper hand.

I can fully see an apocalyptic downspin to the end of the Dragon Age - with a rebuilding effort that will allow Bioware to redesign all factions how they choose.

Mage victory only allows a handful of redesign options - some, I would be very uninterested in.

Though I do not support the Templars - I'd actually support Templar victory for storytelling purposes.

But in the end - I'd like to see them both crumble.

Optimally - some nations will be extraordinarily hostile to mages - while others will have more liberty - and the Chantry will not hold sway over them all. Some nations will host Templars - while others keep a balance - and others become demon infested mage hell-holes.

Sorry - can't keep positive about the Thedas mages governing themselves... I haven't seen any reason to think they'd do it without disaster. I respect Tevinter for that reason alone. Their draconian expectations of their mage society.

And what if society doesn't necessarily love them, but the mages do watch themselves without disaster?

[Hellion Rex]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Morocco Mole wrote...

cjones91 wrote...
But nothing will change if the templars win either,the mages have to win in some victory in order for the story to progress.

How so? 

Everything had been leading up to the mages breaking away from the Chantry ever since DAO,all of the events in the story would be rendered null and void if the templars win.

No they won't. The mage-templa thing is only a small part of Thedas and not all thing shave to radicly change or change at all.
How many failed rebellions and revolutions have there been in human history? Thousands. And the world keeps on turning.

Yes it would,returning to the status quo would be undoing everything Bioware had been setting up so far within the story.

And you are only saying that because you think Bio has been settting up a mage victory.

If not victory, then at the very least a radical change in the system. As this rebellion proves, the Circles needed to be drastically improved on BOTH sides. Otherwise, we will be in the same situation again in a few decades.

Modifié par eluvianix, 25 octobre 2013 - 05:45 .

[lil yonce]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Youth4Ever wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Youth4Ever wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
Since there appears to be a new round in the everlasting mage vs. templar debate on this forum, I thought I'd bring this thread to the fore again for the new people. What I wrote in the OP is what it is all about for me. It's not just about freedom for mages, but all the aspects of the world that are connected to them. It is interesting though, that while my/Eorlin's original manifesto was written as an in-world document to bring mages together, the rather more inflammatory response by Youth4Ever/Kamilah appears to be written to drive a wedge between them. An agent of the templars probably couldn't do it much better, which of course raises questions about the real agenda behind it....taking it strictly in-world, of course.

Separating revolution from the Libertarian fraternity is essential to a Lucrosian pursuing "the third way". If her criticism of their fraternity objectives and methods prompts the accusation of "templar agent", Kamilah would swiftly respond, "typical Libertarian bullsh*t."

Separating? You mean "thoroughly discrediting". Which is, in fact, not surprising coming from a Lucrosian, since a revolution would likely adversely affect the material comfort which appears to be the Lucrosian's primary consideration. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but freedom is not a commodity that you should sell away for decadence.....says Eorlin.

Lucrosians are not empty-headed, superficial, self-centered, materialists as Eorlin would imply. The Lucrosian ideology, for this character, is a means to a "Libertarian-like" end. It is true and sustained mage liberation through wealth.

Eorlin writes:
"That is what I hoped to hear. Meanwhile, Libertarians - to whom, as an aside, I owe no allegiance - are not blood-crazed fanatics and seek true, sustained mage liberation through separation from the Chantry. Now that this is established, perhaps we can discuss how a co-operation between the factions can benefit our almost identical  goals. There will be no sustained mage liberation without resources, but neither will their be liberation if we remain slaves in spirit and continue to subscribe to the Chantry's pronouncements about magic and mages. There is a place for both the fist and the velvet glove in any conflict, and the threat of war has been a tried and true tool in the management of conflicts since time immemorial. Discord will only weaken the cause, and if I have likened your actions to those of a templar agent, that is because sowing discord benefits only them. I do not seek violent conflict, but I will not let our goal be compromised by political timidity and by not being prepared for it should our opposition choose to beat us into submission rather than talk."

"What you do not understand is that Chantry separation and true liberation are crucially, invariably at odds. True liberation is "of the third kind". It is alien, it is Lucrosian, but it can achieve, in the end, every goal set by the Libertarian fraternity, and do so without their war cries and histrionics. And again, the Libertarians have yet to justify the incredible cost of their revolution, and if presenting the truth of the matter to the Circle sabotages it, it was never a worthwhile revolution to pursue."

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 26 octobre 2013 - 06:10 .

[dragonflight288]

LobselVith8 wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

If I was a writer of the game, and wanted to make the game as good as possible while also making it as replayable as possible (thereby increasing sales and enjoyment,) I wouldn't have the leadership of either faction be extremists, but instead passionate about where they stand, and their stance completely contradicts the other leader's position to the point of violence, and the gamer in turn could agree or disagree.

That would be good. Three dimensional leaders would be much more appealing than what we were previously given, as well as the option to voice our own opinion without being restricted by the developers refusing to allow us to retort to respective characters we might disagree with (which happened with Meredith and Tallis).

dragonflight288 wrote...

I would also have the Inquistor not get involved, directly at least, with either side except in the cases where either side helps/hinders the Inquisitors own goals.

I don't know about that. I rather enjoyed having my Surana Warden aid the Mages Collective, and my apostate Hawke help the mage underground. I like getting involved, and having an impact on the world. Helping Bhelen gain the throne, thereby helping the casteless gain more freedoms, or helping save the last of the Harrowmont line with a character who had none of the experiences of my Warden. I'd rather like the choice to get involved, although I would respect it being optional for people (or characters) who simply aren't invested in the war.

dragonflight288 wrote...

And then I'd have the qunari or the darkspawn attack, and the Inquisitor has to somehow force a truce between the them in order to fight the thread, even if that truce is temporary, but ultimately we would still be forced to eliminate all the extremist factions of both/one side(s). That would leave the ending ambiguous enough for replayability and offer the gamer enough choice about the ending and who comes out ahead by the end, and that would make it easier to write the next game/novel. 

Personally, I wouldn't be interested in pursuing a compromise between the mages and the templars. I would rather help one side achieve victory over the other.

I know. What I want as a gamer, and what I'd do as a writer, unfortunately are completely different things. I would like to completely dominate one side or the other, as that too would appeal to gamers.

The problem with that is that it would then take like 10 years of development and beta-testing simply to cover all the options for the next game.

[Medhia Nox]

@Xilizhra: Certainly possible - this is fiction, and subject to whatever the writer's would like to make reality.

I'm not going to rage quit if I don't get my way or anything. My initial reaction will probably be disappointment - but I'd wait for future installments to see if the direction still holds my interest.

[dragonflight288]

eluvianix wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Xilizhra: I didn't say the demon problem wouldn't be resolved. The demon problem is what Inquisition is about - not the Mage/Templar conflict.

Which is precisely why I believe both these factions will be taking a back seat and will be subject to destruction.

I'd personally love a post-apocalyptic fantasy.

What I am worried about - is Dragon Age becoming completely generic. Destroying the Templars and having a Mage paradise would be exactly that. I've seen that world before.

It won't be paradise. There's still the qunari to deal with and probably one last hurrah from the darkspawn. You'll have plenty of conflict for the rest of the series, fear not.

Also... everyone being a mage, for instance, isn't generic either.

Two last hurrah's from the darkspawn.

There are two more archdemons to kill, after all.

Not another Blight. Something more, something to do with the Black City and the source of the taint.

That could be the Black City, it could be an ancient dwarven experiment with lyrium, it could be a mixture of both.

But it still would be fascinating.

Personally, though, I would actually prefer if the origin of the darkspawn is left ambiguous, we get enough evidence to support 2 or 3 different theories, but lack concrete proof on which is the correct origin.

But I want to know what the heck is going on!!!!! All the mystery makes the game awesome, but drives me nuts cause I have so many different theories of what actually is happening.

I know, and that in turn increases replayability, especially if you roleplay your characters as believing certain things about these events and creatures.

[Hellion Rex]

dragonflight288 wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Xilizhra: I didn't say the demon problem wouldn't be resolved. The demon problem is what Inquisition is about - not the Mage/Templar conflict.

Which is precisely why I believe both these factions will be taking a back seat and will be subject to destruction.

I'd personally love a post-apocalyptic fantasy.

What I am worried about - is Dragon Age becoming completely generic. Destroying the Templars and having a Mage paradise would be exactly that. I've seen that world before.

It won't be paradise. There's still the qunari to deal with and probably one last hurrah from the darkspawn. You'll have plenty of conflict for the rest of the series, fear not.

Also... everyone being a mage, for instance, isn't generic either.

Two last hurrah's from the darkspawn.

There are two more archdemons to kill, after all.

Not another Blight. Something more, something to do with the Black City and the source of the taint.

That could be the Black City, it could be an ancient dwarven experiment with lyrium, it could be a mixture of both.

But it still would be fascinating.

Personally, though, I would actually prefer if the origin of the darkspawn is left ambiguous, we get enough evidence to support 2 or 3 different theories, but lack concrete proof on which is the correct origin.

But I want to know what the heck is going on!!!!! All the mystery makes the game awesome, but drives me nuts cause I have so many different theories of what actually is happening.

I know, and that in turn increases replayability, especially if you roleplay your characters as believing certain things about these events and creatures.

True, but somehow I end up just switching back to what I myself believe in. I mostly play these games as if it was me in those situations.