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[Lotion Soronarr]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Is it morally correct to leave a child in the care of its parents, if you know you are putting the child at risk? That is certainly debatable..

Given that the templars throw children into the mouths of demons, I don't really think it's much of a step up.

Huh?... I don't even.... What?

I think Xil is talking about the Harrowing.

Ya know...that ritual that was created BY MAGES and used on ADULTS.

[DPSSOC]

Xilizhra wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Is it morally correct to leave a child in the care of its parents, if you know you are putting the child at risk? That is certainly debatable..

Given that the templars throw children into the mouths of demons, I don't really think it's much of a step up.

Except they're adults at that point, trained to deal with the dangers they face just caught unprepared.

Xilizhra wrote...

He was a mage and without the Warden his curse destoryed his clan in the end.
Methanari becoming an abomination ruins her.
Keepers do occasionaly become abominations and threaten the entire clan. Dalish clans do dissapear.

The curse would have nicked his clan, but without finding help, he'd have moved on before it killed too many people.

Isn't it made clear that the Werewolves won't let them leave?  Hell the forest itself conspires to keep you from making progress I'm pretty sure they could have kept the Dalish put.

KainD wrote...

Huyna wrote...
Rights of the minority are important, but they cannot and should not overrule the rights of majority. Majority  builds towns, majority  works at farms, and majority supports civilization.  

Needs of many outweigh needs of few.

It should be withing the interests of the majoririty for the right of the minority to be fulfilled.

Not if the rights of the minority endanger the well being of the majority.  Mages pose a danger, whether they want to or not, to those around them, accidents happen, and given the potential scope of harm and the fact there's no way to mitigate or predict these events it's unreasonable to just expect the general populace to grin and bear it.

KainD wrote...

Huyna wrote...
Mages are dangerous. It’s not their fault, they were born that way, but it changes nothing. And not only because they are a constant beacon for demons, but because their power can lead to arrogance, to a firm belief in their own superiority.  In a blink of an eye a magocratic society may appear, with mages as a ruling class. An “oppressed” now will become rulers and harsh their rule will be.

One may say – “It will only may happen because mages are not truly free. We are not banning swords because swords can be used as a weapon! Mages are not tools, but intelligent beings with rights, hopes and dreams”.  It’s all true. However, until a proper “cure” will be developed that will provide a full-proof guarantee against demonic possession; mages must be kept in check.  We have to remember – Fade is full of many creatures, and many of them hate humans. They feel bitter and jealous, for humans are Maker’s favorite, though they were Makers first. And some of these creatures are old. Old, very old. And highly intelligent and patient.  Forget rage demons – even if they can they can wipe out a village. Forget passion demons – even if their games can turn hundreds insane. Fear, among other things, a pride demon of the higher order, which will take mage of a great power, and almost impossible to detect. Such creature will wait; such creature will be extremely careful and will play the mage as a puppet until time to strike is right. And then entire kingdoms will bleed. A grey cardinal beyond the thrones. What great grief can be unleashed then?

Anything that CAN happen is irrevlevant. Everything that CAN happen is to be dealt with when it actually happens.

So preventative measures shouldn't be taken at all?  We deal with what CAN happen every day well before it does.  A nuclear reactor can over heat and cause serious problems, we have measures in place to keep that from happening.  Hurricanes can cause a great deal of flooding, we have measures to keep that from happening.  Tornado drills, fire drills, smoke detectors, air bags, seat belts, etc. all measures taken because of what CAN happen.  Sadly there don't exist measures in Thedas that can mitigate what a mage can do (just yet anyway) so they're confined in order to minimize response time when something does go wrong.

Modifié par DPSSOC, 23 juin 2013 - 01:37 .

[Plaintiff]

Huyna wrote...
Rights of the minority are important, but they cannot and should not overrule the rights of majority. Majority  builds towns, majority  works at farms, and majority supports civilization. 

Hahahahahahahahahahaha

And the minorities of Thedas don't contribute to society at all? Mages aren't providing enchanted items and potions? Dwarves aren't stimulating the economy with their trading? Alienage Elves are just sitting around in the sun, sipping Pina Colodas?

[EmperorSahlertz]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Is it morally correct to leave a child in the care of its parents, if you know you are putting the child at risk? That is certainly debatable..

Given that the templars throw children into the mouths of demons, I don't really think it's much of a step up.

Huh?... I don't even.... What?

I think Xil is talking about the Harrowing.

Ya know...that ritual that was created BY MAGES and used on ADULTS.

Ooooooh... So another misguided attempt at villifying the Templars...

[BlueMagitek]

Plaintiff wrote...

Huyna wrote...
Rights of the minority are important, but they cannot and should not overrule the rights of majority. Majority  builds towns, majority  works at farms, and majority supports civilization. 

Hahahahahahahahahahaha

And the minorities of Thedas don't contribute to society at all? Mages aren't providing enchanted items and potions? Dwarves aren't stimulating the economy with their trading? Alienage Elves are just sitting around in the sun, sipping Pina Colodas?

Mages don't actually provide enchanted items - Tranquil do.

The Dwarves actually do provide the service of a buffer between the Darkspawn and the rest of the world.

Considering Alienage Elves were being sold without most/any of Denerim caring all too much, it is unlikely their roles are super-vital.

But I'm not even sure what you're arguing, so...

[Ieldra]

Sir JK wrote...
First of all, I wish to extent to Ieldra (and Xil) a sincere Bravo for a wonderfully written post/text. It's precisely the sort of thing I imagine a well educated mage could write to garner support for their cause (or at the very least convince themselves of the justice in their cause). It's well written, well founded and focuses on some of the better arguments against the circles.

I'm not exactly sure why the quote from Excalibur is headlining it, seeing it's an in-character document. It's nice and all, but it stands out a bit since it's not part of the world.

It's a relic of early versions. I removed it now. Thank you for the appreciation!

I'm also not sure whether the depiction of the litany of Adralla is correct. It does seem to be more of an object than a knowledge based on presentation ingame and in the book Asunder, and there's some indication to it being a unique one. Then again, it is named a litany, which is a type of prayer.

It isn't a unique magical artifact. It appears to be some sort of spell you read from a scroll.

It also lacks any notion of a solution to the problem, but then again if it's just a call to fight then it may not need any.

Rather than a solution, I have given hints how a solution could be arrived at. This was intentionally vague.

[LobselVith8]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Huh?... I don't even.... What? 

I think Xil is talking about the Harrowing.

Ya know...that ritual that was created BY MAGES and used on ADULTS. 

In other words, it's as incorrect as your insinuation that mages can simply go outside the Circle and live outside the Circle Tower as though it happens all the time. Wynne is an exception to all the rules - as the mages in Asunder point out. Wilhelm likely had a royal boon given how he was allowed to have and raise his own children, which is illegal in all cases except one - being a Grey Warden (who isn't beholden to Chantry law). I don't see much to support your insinuation on the matter.

The Chantry controlled Circles were terrible enough that many mages committed suicide, and some rebelled or fled. It's why Anders wrote a manifesto about an alternative to the Chantry and templar system.

[Plaintiff]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Huyna wrote...
Rights of the minority are important, but they cannot and should not overrule the rights of majority. Majority  builds towns, majority  works at farms, and majority supports civilization. 

Hahahahahahahahahahaha

And the minorities of Thedas don't contribute to society at all? Mages aren't providing enchanted items and potions? Dwarves aren't stimulating the economy with their trading? Alienage Elves are just sitting around in the sun, sipping Pina Colodas?

Mages don't actually provide enchanted items - Tranquil do.

But Daddy, where do Tranquil come from? 

The Dwarves actually do provide the service of a buffer between the Darkspawn and the rest of the world.

Considering Alienage Elves were being sold without most/any of Denerim caring all too much, it is unlikely their roles are super-vital.

But I'm not even sure what you're arguing, so...

Let me break it down for you:

Huyna asserts that the "rights of the minority should not overrule the rights of the majority". The reasoning behind this is that the majority "builds towns, works at farms and supports civilization".

The only way this reasoning works is if the "minority" does not also do these things. But we know that they do.

So the argument is dumb.

[EmperorSahlertz]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Huh?... I don't even.... What? 

I think Xil is talking about the Harrowing.

Ya know...that ritual that was created BY MAGES and used on ADULTS. 

In other words, it's as incorrect as your insinuation that mages can simply go outside the Circle and live outside the Circle Tower as though it happens all the time. Wynne is an exception to all the rules - as the mages in Asunder point out. Wilhelm likely had a royal boon given how he was allowed to have and raise his own children, which is illegal in all cases except one - being a Grey Warden (who isn't beholden to Chantry law). I don't see much to support your insinuation on the matter.

The Chantry controlled Circles were terrible enough that many mages committed suicide, and some rebelled or fled. It's why Anders wrote a manifesto about an alternative to the Chantry and templar system.

What about that mage walking around picking flowers, unsupervised for days on end, in the Wending Woods? Obviously mages are allowed to leave the Circles for a period of time, if they prove themselves capable of handling themselves, and show a bit of loyalty to their organization. And royalty holds no power over the Circles, so Wilhelm recieving a royal boon cannot be the case, since the royalty does not hold the authority to grant him what he recieved.

And Anders is so full of ****, that he must wipe his mouth after burping.

[EmperorSahlertz]

*double post*

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 23 juin 2013 - 02:11 .

[DPSSOC]

LobselVith8 wrote...
The Chantry controlled Circles were terrible enough that many mages committed suicide, and some rebelled or fled. It's why Anders wrote a manifesto about an alternative to the Chantry and templar system.

The same is true of public schools though.  Are you honestly suggesting we should tear down the education system because the students aren't 100% satisfied with it?  People commit suicide, people rebel, people run away these are not marks against society.

[Plaintiff]

DPSSOC wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
The Chantry controlled Circles were terrible enough that many mages committed suicide, and some rebelled or fled. It's why Anders wrote a manifesto about an alternative to the Chantry and templar system.

The same is true of public schools though.  Are you honestly suggesting we should tear down the education system because the students aren't 100% satisfied with it?  People commit suicide, people rebel, people run away these are not marks against society.

Nobody is advocating the "tearing down" of the Circle system, Straw Mannington.

Mages are not children. The vast majority of the ones we've seen are well-educated adults. Pro-Templars keep arguing about how the mages enjoy a better education than most anyone in Thedas, and if that's actually true, then they must have very well-reasoned arguments for why they want to leave.

And in fact, when students commit suicide, the schools they attended, as well as their families, come under heavy scrutiny, sometimes even from the news media. If wide-scale rebellion the like of the Circles was occuring in public schools, then that would absolutely be an inidcator that something is deeply flawed in the system.

[BlueMagitek]

Plaintiff wrote...
But Daddy, where do Tranquil come from?

Let me break it down for you:

Huyna asserts that the "rights of the minority should not overrule the rights of the majority". The reasoning behind this is that the majority "builds towns, works at farms and supports civilization".

The only way this reasoning works is if the "minority" does not also do these things. But we know that they do.

So the argument is dumb.

Well I'm not your father, so I can't get into specifics, but it comes from when a mage is made tranquil.  As I have been  told many times by certain persons that this is a horrific fate for any mage (even those that request it), I would not group tranquil and mages in the same group.  Similar to Dalish/Alienage Elves. 

Actually I don't know about that.  Do Dwarves farm?  We never really see any.  Where do they get their food anyway?  Is it all nug based?

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

What about that mage walking around picking flowers, unsupervised for days on end, in the Wending Woods? Obviously mages are allowed to leave the Circles for a period of time, if they prove themselves capable of handling themselves, and show a bit of loyalty to their organization.

Yoy mean Ines, who was researching a plant that was rumored to grow in Blighted soil. After the Fifth Blight. Do I even need to explain the importance of this research, or how erroneous your statement was?

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

And royalty holds no power over the Circles, so Wilhelm recieving a royal boon cannot be the case, since the royalty does not hold the authority to grant him what he recieved.

Wilhelm living outside the Circle with his wife and child suggest he could have received a royal boon, as a war hero of the rebellion that deposed the Orlesian occupation.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

And Anders is so full of ****, that he must wipe his mouth after burping. 

That was a pointless remark.

[EmperorSahlertz]

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

What about that mage walking around picking flowers, unsupervised for days on end, in the Wending Woods? Obviously mages are allowed to leave the Circles for a period of time, if they prove themselves capable of handling themselves, and show a bit of loyalty to their organization.

Yoy mean Ines, who was researching a plant that was rumored to grow in Blighted soil. After the Fifth Blight. Do I even need to explain the importance of this research, or how erroneous your statement was?

Do I even need to explain to you that she was alone and unsupervised for several days outside the Circle, and was even allowed to travel on her own. An obivous example of mages being allowed to be outside the Circles. So obviously YOU were the one being wrong, claiming that only super special cases gets this treatment.

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

And royalty holds no power over the Circles, so Wilhelm recieving a royal boon cannot be the case, since the royalty does not hold the authority to grant him what he recieved.

Wilhelm living outside the Circle with his wife and child suggest he could have received a royal boon, as a war hero of the rebellion that deposed the Orlesian occupation.

No. It suggests no such thing. Royalty holds no authority over the Circle, a royal boon would amount to NOTHING for a Circle Mage. Only the Circle and the Chantry holds authority over Circle Mages.

[Lotion Soronarr]

LobselVith8 wrote...

In other words, it's as incorrect as your insinuation that mages can simply go outside the Circle and live outside the Circle Tower as though it happens all the time. Wynne is an exception to all the rules - as the mages in Asunder point out. Wilhelm likely had a royal boon given how he was allowed to have and raise his own children, which is illegal in all cases except one - being a Grey Warden (who isn't beholden to Chantry law). I don't see much to support your insinuation on the matter.

Mages can go outside of the circle..they have to return tough, unless a special exception is made (for various reasons).

The Chantry controlled Circles were terrible enough that many mages committed suicide, and some rebelled or fled. It's why Anders wrote a manifesto about an alternative to the Chantry and templar system.

And plenty of mages were perfectly happy there.

[LobselVith8]

DPSSOC wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The Chantry controlled Circles were terrible enough that many mages committed suicide, and some rebelled or fled. It's why Anders wrote a manifesto about an alternative to the Chantry and templar system. 

The same is true of public schools though.  Are you honestly suggesting we should tear down the education system because the students aren't 100% satisfied with it?  People commit suicide, people rebel, people run away these are not marks against society.

The Chantry controlled Circles aren't public schools. Anders, author of a mage manifesto, condemned the institution as slavery. As does pro-mage Hawke. As did Aldenon the Wise, co-founder of Ferelden. And I would certainly suggest that we tear down institutions of slavery.

[KainD]

DPSSOC wrote...
Not if the rights of the minority endanger the well being of the majority.  Mages pose a danger, whether they want to or not, to those around them, accidents happen, and given the potential scope of harm and the fact there's no way to mitigate or predict these events it's unreasonable to just expect the general populace to grin and bear it.

No, freedom is more important than safety. It is reasonable to expect the general populace to bear it. 

DPSSOC wrote...
So preventative measures shouldn't be taken at all?  We deal with what CAN happen every day well before it does.  A nuclear reactor can over heat and cause serious problems, we have measures in place to keep that from happening.  Hurricanes can cause a great deal of flooding, we have measures to keep that from happening.  Tornado drills, fire drills, smoke detectors, air bags, seat belts, etc. all measures taken because of what CAN happen.  Sadly there don't exist measures in Thedas that can mitigate what a mage can do (just yet anyway) so they're confined in order to minimize response time when something does go wrong.

When these measures interfere with someones freedom it becomes wrong. I for example find it complete wrong that people have to use a seatbelt according to the law, it should be a personal choice for everyone.

[KainD]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

I wonder...how dangerous should mages be before youd acknowledge it?

Le'ts say that single powerfull mage under right conditions can literally destroy the world. Would it be wrong to lock up all mages then?

I don't compromise on my views. It would still be wrong to lock up all mages. 

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Yoy mean Ines, who was researching a plant that was rumored to grow in Blighted soil. After the Fifth Blight. Do I even need to explain the importance of this research, or how erroneous your statement was?

Do I even need to explain to you that she was alone and unsupervised for several days outside the Circle, and was even allowed to travel on her own. An obivous example of mages being allowed to be outside the Circles. So obviously YOU were the one being wrong, claiming that only super special cases gets this treatment.

Ines was implied to be a Senior Enchanter, given how she speaks about Uldred and Wynne. She was allowed to research a plant that was rumored to grow in Blighted soil[/b]. After the Fifth Blight made certain areas in Ferelden desolate and barren. That is an example of a special case.

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Wilhelm living outside the Circle with his wife and child suggest he could have received a royal boon, as a war hero of the rebellion that deposed the Orlesian occupation.

No. It suggests no such thing. Royalty holds no authority over the Circle, a royal boon would amount to NOTHING for a Circle Mage. Only the Circle and the Chantry holds authority over Circle Mages.

Since it is illegal for mages to keep their children (with the sole exception being Grey Wardens), it certainly does suggest that.

[MisterJB]

KainD wrote...
I for example find it complete wrong that people have to use a seatbelt according to the law, it should be a personal choice for everyone.

...How do you function?

Seatbelts, now there is a sign of opression, Fight the power!
I think this counts as a point for the Pro-Templars. I mean, the pro-mages have a guy who is against seatbelts.

Modifié par MisterJB, 23 juin 2013 - 04:09 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Yoy mean Ines, who was researching a plant that was rumored to grow in Blighted soil. After the Fifth Blight. Do I even need to explain the importance of this research, or how erroneous your statement was?

Do I even need to explain to you that she was alone and unsupervised for several days outside the Circle, and was even allowed to travel on her own. An obivous example of mages being allowed to be outside the Circles. So obviously YOU were the one being wrong, claiming that only super special cases gets this treatment.

Ines was implied to be a Senior Enchanter, given how she speaks about Uldred and Wynne. She was allowed to research a plant that was rumored to grow in Blighted soil[/b]. After the Fifth Blight made certain areas in Ferelden desolate and barren. That is an example of a special case.

She was still unsupervised and outside the Circle. And if what she was doing was of such extreme importance as you imply, then she most certainly wouldn't be alone. Mages are obviously allowed to go outside the Circle, if they have proven themselves trustworthy.

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Wilhelm living outside the Circle with his wife and child suggest he could have received a royal boon, as a war hero of the rebellion that deposed the Orlesian occupation.

No. It suggests no such thing. Royalty holds no authority over the Circle, a royal boon would amount to NOTHING for a Circle Mage. Only the Circle and the Chantry holds authority over Circle Mages.

Since it is illegal for mages to keep their children (with the sole exception being Grey Wardens), it certainly does suggest that.

And since royalty hold NO AUTHORITY, a royal boon would amount to didly squat. Royalty cannot allow mages to live outside the Circles. Only the Circles and the Chantry, and I mean ONLY those two, have the authority to allow for such things. And for all we know Wilhelm had his child illegally, since he was obviously not under any supervision.

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 23 juin 2013 - 04:27 .

[Ieldra]

About what mages can and cannot do:

From DA2 and "Asunder" I get that mages are not allowed out of a Circle unless accompanied by a templar, with possible exceptions for selected senior enchanters who have proven their loyalty like Wynne. The general idea appears to be that mages have to be watched all the time, with concessions made for a minimum of privacy but only within a Circle. It is possible that things are a little different in Ferelden. It is also possible that those who made the Ines quest didn't think about this. Remember, the DAA epilogue also says that Anders stayed at Vigil's keep for several years when DA2 has him in Kirkwall at about the time when DAA ends. As a rule I would trust the later sources over the earlier ones if there's a contradiction. "Asunder" paints a relatively clear picture. In fact, all the sources - games, books, comics - after DAO paint a much more restrictive picture.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 23 juin 2013 - 04:44 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Well that, or the king asked the Chantry nicely and they said OK.

Either way, I find it funny that this thread was made to obviously copy the "Templer Perspective" thread... one that was repeatedly sabotaged and de-railed by pro-magers.

[Ieldra]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Either way, I find it funny that this thread was made to obviously copy the "Templer Perspective" thread... one that was repeatedly sabotaged and de-railed by pro-magers.

I haven't followed that thread in detail, but if you don't want dissenting opinions you should post in a group.