1656 réponses à ce sujet

[Kerethos]

It's my understanding that Wilhelm was conducting secret research into alternative ways to counter demonic possession - as such research is forbidden by the Chantry. How he ended up in the rebel army is never really explained, but he appears to have been a member of the circle and operating with First-Enchanter Arden's knowledge (but not the templars - thus making him an apostate). If Arden was, at some point, the First-Enchanter of Ferelden is unknown. Thus it seems more likely he went on loan to the rebel queen, then chose to become an apostate under Maric's protection, than having been freed for good behavior.

[Ieldra]

Kerethos_ wrote...
It's my understanding that Wilhelm was conducting secret research into alternative ways to counter demonic possession - as such research is forbidden by the Chantry. How he ended up in the rebel army is never really explained, but he appears to have been a member of the circle and operating with First-Enchanter Arden's knowledge (but not the templars - thus making him an apostate). If Arden was, at some point, the First-Enchanter of Ferelden is unknown. Thus it seems more likely he went on loan to the rebel queen, then chose to become an apostate under Maric's protection, than having been freed for good behavior.

LOL. I didn't recall Wilhelm's journal when I wrote the manifesto, but it echoes my thoughts nicely: "How will we ever find another way to deal with demonic possession if the Chantry does not let us research it?" The journal also confirms that the templars didn't know what he was doing.

[Dave of Canada]

Ieldra2 wrote...

The general idea appears to be that mages have to be watched all the time, with concessions made for a minimum of privacy but only within a Circle. It is possible that things are a little different in Ferelden. It is also possible that those who made the Ines quest didn't think about this.

Finn.

Ieldra2 wrote...

LOL. I didn't recall Wilhelm's journal when I wrote the manifesto, but it echoes my thoughts nicely: "How will we ever find another way to deal with demonic possession if the Chantry does not let us research it?" The journal also confirms that the templars didn't know what he was doing. 

Isn't that the entire point of the Tranquil research from Asunder? A way to cut a mage's connection to the fade without hindering their emotions? Hell, even Lambert supports the idea.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 23 juin 2013 - 06:13 .

[Bleachrude]

LobselVith8 wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The Chantry controlled Circles were terrible enough that many mages committed suicide, and some rebelled or fled. It's why Anders wrote a manifesto about an alternative to the Chantry and templar system. 

The same is true of public schools though.  Are you honestly suggesting we should tear down the education system because the students aren't 100% satisfied with it?  People commit suicide, people rebel, people run away these are not marks against society.

The Chantry controlled Circles aren't public schools. Anders, author of a mage manifesto, condemned the institution as slavery. As does pro-mage Hawke. As did Aldenon the Wise, co-founder of Ferelden. And I would certainly suggest that we tear down institutions of slavery.

Actually, they probably ARE the closest things to public schools in Thedas. Celene's creation of an university is seen as a BIG thing in Thedas indicating that higher knowledge is NOT something most of Thedas has access to.

Indeed, it is the circle that probably allowed Anders to even learn how to write.

(Taken from another forum with regard to literacy)
In 1304 there were 13 secular schoolteachers in Genoa, as well as monks and priests who also taught, and it's been estimated that as many as 20% of Genoa's male population could read to some extent at least (education for women was neglected). As an Italian commercial city-statewith perhaps the most advanced technology in Christian Europe, however, Genoa was probably something of a special case.


Again, I'll point out people are using their MODREN DAY knowledge with a setting that is explicitly modelled after medieval Europe in many areas.

Modifié par Bleachrude, 23 juin 2013 - 06:16 .

[Bleachrude]

MisterJB wrote...

IceHawk-181 wrote...

Free Society is based on the principle that Rights are inherent in Humanity.

The mere fact that you just claimed Mages derive their rights from institutional allowances from the Chantry actually demonstrates they are, in fact, not free.

Do peasants not derive rights from their lords? Can kings and emperors not decree the death of a citizen despite the (modern) belief of the inherent right to life? Is the protection of the peasantry not dependant upon how much the guardsman are willing to risk for them?
Then the freedoms of mages are not so different from those of the "free men" of Thedas.

Another good point and another example of how people ignore medieval society.

Take a "day in court" questline from DA:O expansion Awakenings.

You can put to death a person for stealing to feed their family, a person for abandoning their post because they worried about their family and another person based entirely on circumstantial evidence.

The latter one is the most interesting one as a knight (a member of the nobility..true, lowest level of the nobility, but STILL a noble) is the person in question

And all of these are recommended punishements by Varel, not exactly a big bad evil administrator.

[duckley]

Bleachrude wrote...

Another good point and another example of how people ignore medieval society.

Take a "day in court" questline from DA:O expansion Awakenings.

You can put to death a person for stealing to feed their family, a person for abandoning their post because they worried about their family and another person based entirely on circumstantial evidence.

The latter one is the most interesting one as a knight (a member of the nobility..true, lowest level of the nobility, but STILL a noble) is the person in question

And all of these are recommended punishements by Varel, not exactly a big bad evil administrator.

 Good point   - we need to appreciate the context in which Dragon Age is occuring.

[lil yonce]

Interesting read OP. Nice in-character piece. I would like a DA:I Fan Creations forum or thread too. And I have a mage to counter your Amell. Kamilah Trufant and The Lucrosian's Proposal.

[Plaintiff]

duckley wrote...

Bleachrude wrote...

Another good point and another example of how people ignore medieval society.

Take a "day in court" questline from DA:O expansion Awakenings.

You can put to death a person for stealing to feed their family, a person for abandoning their post because they worried about their family and another person based entirely on circumstantial evidence.

The latter one is the most interesting one as a knight (a member of the nobility..true, lowest level of the nobility, but STILL a noble) is the person in question

And all of these are recommended punishements by Varel, not exactly a big bad evil administrator.

 Good point   - we need to appreciate the context in which Dragon Age is occuring.

It's not the context of a medieval society, even if it does bear similarities.

[Bleachrude]

Plaintiff wrote...

duckley wrote...

Bleachrude wrote...

Another good point and another example of how people ignore medieval society.

Take a "day in court" questline from DA:O expansion Awakenings.

You can put to death a person for stealing to feed their family, a person for abandoning their post because they worried about their family and another person based entirely on circumstantial evidence.

The latter one is the most interesting one as a knight (a member of the nobility..true, lowest level of the nobility, but STILL a noble) is the person in question

And all of these are recommended punishements by Varel, not exactly a big bad evil administrator.

 Good point   - we need to appreciate the context in which Dragon Age is occuring.

It's not the context of a medieval society, even if it does bear similarities.

I'll point out that my examples come from the game and are Ferelden. The country noted as being the most "western" in terms of human rights.

So, if the Teryn of Highever for example, thinks a mage is too dangerous and decrees that he be put to death even though all said mage has done is steal from the teryn, this isn't a case of dsicsrimination.

This is a prime example of a mage being treated eqally like mundanes.

Contrast this with Anders for example. Anders boasts of escaping the circle multiple times and his only punishment was soltary confinement (and it couldn't be THAT long given that he had enough time to find another way out and escape).

And that still doesn't change the fact that it seems like only the circles actually have people being taught how to read and write.

[Cigne]

[qoute] Plaintiff wrote...
It's not the context of a medieval society, even if it does bear similarities.
[/qoute]


I tend to view Thedas from a science fiction perspective. Really, multiple intelligent species native (apparently) to the same planet? A race that can breed with others but is headed for extinction, since all traces (again, apparently) disappear from the offspring? Three of the races randomly produce offspring that possess distinct abilities that arguably classify them as a separate race?

I'm not of the belief that RL philoshophy and laws are designed to be applied to the setting; but I guess that doesn't matter, since it is a game setting designed to be played by RL people.

[Fredward]

This tangent is a coupla pages old but if the Circle system isn't slavery, what is it? It's not imprisonment because no  crime has been committed (cept existing) and you can't lock someone up forever just in case. It's not indentured servitude because that would imply once you've served long enough you get to go free which, for the majority, is not the case (before you start chuckin exceptions at me; don't. You can't make an argument based on exceptions). Even the "greater good" argument is a little flimsy since the "crime" was committed a thousand years ago and ironically enough the group "responsible" is the only one unaffected by this "justice."

It's definitely not any kind of freedom. It's not voluntary. It's indefinite. Rights are restricted. The organization responsible benefits in many, many ways. Sounds suspiciously like slavery.

[LobselVith8]

duckley wrote...

Good point   - we need to appreciate the context in which Dragon Age is occuring.

The fact that there are characters in the narrative who oppose the Chantry controlled Circles and endorse putting an end to the plight of the mages demonstrates that it doesn't take a modern perspective to think that the Chantry and the templars are wrong.

[Xilizhra]

And all of these are recommended punishements by Varel, not exactly a big bad evil administrator.

He's not a good person either; my own Warden, however, is. And many of us enjoy playing such in general.

[Dave of Canada]

Foopydoopydoo wrote...

It's definitely not any kind of freedom. It's not voluntary. It's indefinite. Rights are restricted. The organization responsible benefits in many, many ways. Sounds suspiciously like slavery.

I'd say more like a high-class quarantine or boarding school than slavery, the mages aren't forced to do anything aside from learn from the education provided to them and prove they're not a liability. They're given food, shelter, clothing, beds, etc and can just loiter around without the Templar cracking the whip and telling them to go back to work.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 23 juin 2013 - 07:46 .

[Xilizhra]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Foopydoopydoo wrote...

It's definitely not any kind of freedom. It's not voluntary. It's indefinite. Rights are restricted. The organization responsible benefits in many, many ways. Sounds suspiciously like slavery.

I'd say more like a high-class quarantine or boarding school than slavery, the mages aren't forced to do anything aside from learn from the education provided to them and prove they're not a liability. They're given food, shelter, clothing, beds, etc and can just loiter around without the Templar cracking the whip and telling them to go back to work.

And be killed by demons if they don't happen to be good enough for the templars, as well as submit to guardians who have de facto absolute power over their lives and deaths if the knight-commander is insufficiently decent.

[BlueMagitek]

Foopydoopydoo wrote...

This tangent is a coupla pages old but if the Circle system isn't slavery, what is it? It's not imprisonment because no  crime has been committed (cept existing) and you can't lock someone up forever just in case. It's not indentured servitude because that would imply once you've served long enough you get to go free which, for the majority, is not the case (before you start chuckin exceptions at me; don't. You can't make an argument based on exceptions). Even the "greater good" argument is a little flimsy since the "crime" was committed a thousand years ago and ironically enough the group "responsible" is the only one unaffected by this "justice."

It's definitely not any kind of freedom. It's not voluntary. It's indefinite. Rights are restricted. The organization responsible benefits in many, many ways. Sounds suspiciously like slavery.

Actually, it would probably fall under "false imprisonment". 

[Ieldra]

Dave of Canada wrote...
Isn't that the entire point of the Tranquil research from Asunder? A way to cut a mage's connection to the fade without hindering their emotions? Hell, even Lambert supports the idea.

The research from Asunder had the goal to establish whether or not Tranquility can be reversed.

Anyway, if cutting someone off from the Fade without cutting off their emotions becomes possible, I don't have anything against it, as long as it's applied only to those who (a) want it or ( have proven that they don't have sufficient control. If such a thing comes to pass, I can actually see a significant number of mageborn opting out of magic given the requirements of training.

I would not trust the Templars to only apply it that way, though.

[Bleachrude]

Xilizhra wrote...

And all of these are recommended punishements by Varel, not exactly a big bad evil administrator.

He's not a good person either; my own Warden, however, is. And many of us enjoy playing such in general.

I wouldn't say he's either though...what he is though is TYPICAL/AVERAGE Ferelden administrator.

Remember, this is a guy who tried to mitigate the excesses of his lord and got imprisoned for his troubles. 

Another example. There's no such thing as prisons in medieval society...there were holding cells where you awaited trial or punishment but prison as a punishment in of itself is a relatively new concept.

re: Comparison of circle life to slavery.
Fenris doesn't actually consider it slavery and actually doesn't see the gallows as oppressive (and he was an actual slave). Anders (and his pro-mage supporters) tend to think that normal Thedosian life as the circle system WITH freedom (aka, don't have to worry about food, clothing, shelter or education).

They also don't realize how restricted the rights of the average citizen is. If the king of neverra says "I'm going to conquer Starkhaven and you're going to fight for me", the average Neverran can't turn around and say "Nope". They have to say "how high" while in midair.

Who is going to pay for the circles and the libraries especially given that your average citizen would not have access to it. Do people not realize this would in of itself breed resentment against mages and encourage mages to think of themselves as different/better given that only mages get to actually learn stuff?

[MisterJB]

Beyond the threat of Qunari and Tevinter, I see no reason why we shouldn't just eliminate magic if we have the means to do so.

[Xilizhra]

Fenris doesn't actually consider it slavery and actually doesn't see the gallows as oppressive (and he was an actual slave). Anders (and his pro-mage supporters) tend to think that normal Thedosian life as the circle system WITH freedom (aka, don't have to worry about food, clothing, shelter or education).

Fenris is viciously biased and I don't trust his opinion on the matter.

Who is going to pay for the circles and the libraries especially given that your average citizen would not have access to it. Do people not realize this would in of itself breed resentment against mages and encourage mages to think of themselves as different/better given that only mages get to actually learn stuff?

Noteworthy, but ultimately taking down the templars for the damage they do is more important for the time being. Beyond that... I had an idea that the Circles might be able to take in casteless dwarves to do their enchanting work if the Tranquil were going to be phased out, and they can make a lot of money through enchantment, in addition to the services that more free mages could provide; magic is useful enough for the Circles to pay for themselves. As for social perceptions... that's not really something that the Circles would be able to control, the fate of the nonmage population (I hardly think you'd want them to control it, at any rate).

[Ieldra]

Youth4Ever wrote...
Interesting read OP. Nice in-character piece. I would like a DA:I Fan Creations forum or thread too. And I have a mage to counter your Amell. Kamilah Trufant and The Lucrosian's Proposal.

Very interesting. And a nice and mostly realistic character - one I wouldn't want to meet on the debating floor. I don't actually see a counter as much as an alternative path to ends which aren't that dissimilar - working within the system until it's changed beyond recognition, an approach that seems believable for a Nevarran. Eorlin does not think such an approach would work elsewhere, but then he's not a politician. The only big issue I'd have is with the ready acceptance of Tranquility. 

[Dave of Canada]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...
Isn't that the entire point of the Tranquil research from Asunder? A way to cut a mage's connection to the fade without hindering their emotions? Hell, even Lambert supports the idea.

The research from Asunder had the goal to establish whether or not Tranquility can be reversed.

Perhaps I'm forgetting something but the wikia summary seems to support my assumption:

Pharamond explains his success in finding an alternative to the Rite of Tranquility, to which Divine Justinia takes great interest in, despite the protests of Lambert. The Divine makes it plain she empathizes with the mages and wishes to end the centuries of persecution and intolerance they have suffered. However, the failure of the second part of Pharamond's research - to find an alternative to Tranquility that reduces a mage's powers without destroying their minds - only further incites Lambert, who insists that the research and those who know about it be destroyed, ignoring the insistence of Rhys and Adrian that imposing more draconian measures on the mages will only make matters worse.

And I don't see why we wouldn't make everyone a non-mage if we've got our quota of mages to deal with Tevinter / Qunari.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 23 juin 2013 - 08:31 .

[Xilizhra]

And I don't see why we wouldn't make everyone a non-mage if we've got our quota of mages to deal with Tevinter / Qunari.

The point is that it's a complete failure. Also, it's still something that shouldn't be done without their informed consent.

[Bleachrude]

Xilizhra wrote...

Fenris doesn't actually consider it slavery and actually doesn't see the gallows as oppressive (and he was an actual slave). Anders (and his pro-mage supporters) tend to think that normal Thedosian life as the circle system WITH freedom (aka, don't have to worry about food, clothing, shelter or education).

Fenris is viciously biased and I don't trust his opinion on the matter.

.

I just love this from pro-mage supporters.

Fenris (and Lambert) are considred biased even though they ACTUALLY lived in Tevinter and experienced it first hand yet Anders opinion is considered gospel since he lived in a circle.

A circle I might add that even though he left multiple times, the worst that Anders will tell happen to him is that he got put in solitary confinement...Hell, Anders doesn't even mention getting beat/roughed up for his escape attempts and you know he would if he actually suffered abuse.