1656 réponses à ce sujet

[Sir DeLoria]

Xilizhra wrote...

Necanor wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
I never said that, I merely said that it wouldn't have to be the current Templar Order. Although I question why magocracy would be any worse than any of the other governments of Thedas, all of which determine eligibility by blood.

A magocracy lacks any balance of power. Wordly leaders are but mere men and it they could loose their position(and head) in a brief civil war or coup d'etat. Mages are far too powerful to be overthrown by a rebellion or a regular army. They are de facto holding the population hostage with their power, leaving regular folk at their mercy.

Tevinter politics tend to be quite deadly. High individual life expectancy for the magisters is by no means a guarantee, even in the heart of magocratic power.

One evil mage replaced by another evil mage. I don't see how the life expectancy of a magister is of any relevance.

[Xilizhra]

Necanor wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Necanor wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
I never said that, I merely said that it wouldn't have to be the current Templar Order. Although I question why magocracy would be any worse than any of the other governments of Thedas, all of which determine eligibility by blood.

A magocracy lacks any balance of power. Wordly leaders are but mere men and it they could loose their position(and head) in a brief civil war or coup d'etat. Mages are far too powerful to be overthrown by a rebellion or a regular army. They are de facto holding the population hostage with their power, leaving regular folk at their mercy.

Tevinter politics tend to be quite deadly. High individual life expectancy for the magisters is by no means a guarantee, even in the heart of magocratic power.

One evil mage replaced by another evil mage. I don't see how the life expectancy of a magister is of any relevance.

Because you were worried about individual rulers living too long.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Barquiel wrote...

There are societies in Thedas that prove that free mages don't automatically mean Tevinter 2.0 (Rivain, Dalish, Chasind).

And all those societies suck, and are led by mages.

Not that any other society don't suck in thedas...

Modifié par TheKomandorShepard, 29 octobre 2013 - 07:40 .

[Sir DeLoria]

Xilizhra wrote...

Necanor wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...


Tevinter politics tend to be quite deadly. High individual life expectancy for the magisters is by no means a guarantee, even in the heart of magocratic power.

One evil mage replaced by another evil mage. I don't see how the life expectancy of a magister is of any relevance.

Because you were worried about individual rulers living too long.

No, I was worried about one societal group controling and subjugating the others, not individuals.

Modifié par Necanor, 29 octobre 2013 - 07:43 .

[Xilizhra]

Necanor wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Necanor wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...


Tevinter politics tend to be quite deadly. High individual life expectancy for the magisters is by no means a guarantee, even in the heart of magocratic power.

One evil mage replaced by another evil mage. I don't see how the life expectancy of a magister is of any relevance.

Because you were worried about individual rulers living too long.

No, I was worried about one societal group controling and subjugating the others, not individuals.

And we go back to that being omnipresent throughout Thedas.

[Sir DeLoria]

Xilizhra wrote...

Necanor wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Necanor wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
Tevinter politics tend to be quite deadly. High individual life expectancy for the magisters is by no means a guarantee, even in the heart of magocratic power.

One evil mage replaced by another evil mage. I don't see how the life expectancy of a magister is of any relevance.

Because you were worried about individual rulers living too long.

No, I was worried about one societal group controling and subjugating the others, not individuals.

And we go back to that being omnipresent throughout Thedas.

Except for their position in society, nobles are in no way, shape or form superior to commoners. A large group of commoners could just as easily create a rebellion and overthrow their noble leaders(French Revolution esque). Mages are too powerful to be overthrown by regular men. Like I said, they are too powerful.

[Xilizhra]

Necanor wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Necanor wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Necanor wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
Tevinter politics tend to be quite deadly. High individual life expectancy for the magisters is by no means a guarantee, even in the heart of magocratic power.

One evil mage replaced by another evil mage. I don't see how the life expectancy of a magister is of any relevance.

Because you were worried about individual rulers living too long.

No, I was worried about one societal group controling and subjugating the others, not individuals.

And we go back to that being omnipresent throughout Thedas.

Except for their position in society, nobles are in no way, shape or form superior to commoners. A large group of commoners could just as easily create a rebellion and overthrow their noble leaders(French Revolution esque). Mages are too powerful to be overthrown by regular men. Like I said, they are too powerful.

And yet, Andraste.

[Gwydden]

Necanor wrote...

Except for their position in society, nobles are in no way, shape or form superior to commoners. A large group of commoners could just as easily create a rebellion and overthrow their noble leaders(French Revolution esque). Mages are too powerful to be overthrown by regular men. Like I said, they are too powerful.

Mages are not as powerful as some seem to believe. A mage can be just as easily overtrown as any other tyrant. That is, if you take away their military power they're pretty much defenseless against a angry rebels. Tevinter remains despite being opressive, yes, but Orlais is just the same and it also stands.

People need a strong, specific motivation to challenge the status quo.

[Ieldra]

Xilizhra wrote...

Youth4Ever wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Youth4Ever wrote... "All mages do not subscribe to Libertarian extremes, and neither do all templars subscribe to the extremes their current leaders endorse. Simply, they have first been rallied by them. Essential strategy in Lucrosian compromise lies in enlisting skeptics. The order's inflexible remnants can then be handled without incredible bloodshed."

"We should never weaken our own unity, and thus our chances of survival, until the templars have been beaten.You don't have to fear it. The war has come, whether you like it or not, and the templars will be no more merciful to you than to us. Face reality. Whatever your plans are, they mean nothing until we secure our own survival."

"All that has come is a questionable vote of sucession I will not accept, for Libertarian reality is grounded in cesaseless death. Not survival. It is a fascist fraternity fated to failure it will ignore in arrogant determination. I cannot say I rue the day it comes, and frankly, the sooner that is does, the sooner compromise can commence."

"So, have you chosen to side with the templars?"

"Indeed, that is the impression I get whenever Kamilah gets confrontational, and that's why I fail to be convinced by her. There seems to be an agenda of weakening the mages as a faction by causing discord, and there seems to be an agenda of watering down the cause of mage liberation until it doesn't exist any more. There are some non-negotiable concessions we need to extract from the Chantry. I'm willing to compromise in things I consider negotiable to give the Chantry what they deem non-negotiable, like an active hand in guarding against demonic possession, but there are limits beyond which the term "mage liberation" has lost all meaning.

Kamilah, your fanatical hatred of the Libertarian fraternity, and your unwillingness to consider seriously anything they say just because it comes from them is a liability. Whatever merits your other arguments might have, one who speaks of her fellow mages like a templar of Karras' kind, as if the Libertarians were all insane blood mages, has lost all credibility as a proponent of mage liberation."
 

[using the term "fascist" is inappropriate for an in-world conversation.]

Modifié par Ieldra2, 29 octobre 2013 - 08:26 .

[Gwydden]

Ieldra2 wrote...

"Indeed, that is the impression I get whenever Kamilah gets confrontational, and that's why I fail to be convinced by her. There seems to be an agenda of weakening the mages as a faction by causing discord, and there seems to be an agenda of watering down the cause of mage liberation until it doesn't exist any more. There are some non-negotiable concessions we need to extract from the Chantry. I'm willing to compromise in things I consider negotiable to give the Chantry what they deem non-negotiable, like an active hand in guarding against demonic possession, but there are limits beyond which the term "mage liberation" has lost all meaning.

Kamilah, your fanatical hatred of the Libertarian fraternity, and your unwillingness to consider seriously anything they say just because it comes from them is a liability. Whatever merits your other arguments might have, one who speaks of her fellow mages like a templar of Karras' kind, as if the Libertarians were all insane blood mages, has lost all credibility as a proponent of mage liberation."
 

Magister Nero to Warden-Commander Eorlin Amell:

I have heard much of your position, and I find your arguments to be truly fascinating. There is a question that I would ask of you, however. Considering the position mages "enjoy" in the countries influenced by your heretic Chantry, I seriously doubt any form of actual compromise beneficial to mages can be easily achieved in short term. At best, centuries of distrust and slander will prove extremely prejudicial for at least several generations.

The Imperial Chantry is much more open minded in these matters, and if handled properly, your Circles might be able to obtain support and funding without becoming subject to Tevinter politics. We also encourage magical research and posses our own templars to take care of security issues. Surely you can appreciate the benefits of our Chantry's sponsorship in both your revolution and the establishment of a better system in your nations.

I am no strange to the Grey Wardens. I respect their commitment and, because of your neutral status, feel intrigued regarding your opinion if an arrangement of this sort was to be made.

Modifié par Gwydden, 29 octobre 2013 - 08:57 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Templar-Commander Tyrels missive to all the circles:

"Mages. For decades I have watched over you and protected you from yourself, from the people and them from you. Some of you I have known all my life. Some of you I would have called friends. Why has it come to this?
The Divine has offered an olive branch - gave you a chance to change the circles. You trampled on that branch an spat in the face our good intentions.  In the very halls we called you to discuss teh changes, you brought trechery, murder, lies and violence! You call for blood? Very well, blood and violence is what you shall recive!

I know many of you didn't want this. I know the vote was close and forced. Surrender and you will be unharmed. It is not too late to forge a new Circle. A better circle.
Resist and you will leave me no choice. The peoples of Thedas will not allow you to roam free. They *CANNOT* allow you to roam free. Your rebellion endangers everyone - yourself, your families, innocent bystanders. The sheer arrogance and blindness that leads some of you to ignore or dismiss the danger you present in madness.

You will return to the circles of your own free will, or we will drag you back in chains.
Make your choice and make it well.
May the Maker have mercy upon your souls."

[Xilizhra]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Templar-Commander Tyrels missive to all the circles:

"Mages. For decades I have watched over you and protected you from yourself, from the people and them from you. Some of you I have known all my life. Some of you I would have called friends. Why has it come to this?
The Divine has offered an olive branch - gave you a chance to change the circles. You trampled on that branch an spat in the face our good intentions.  In the very halls we called you to discuss teh changes, you brought trechery, murder, lies and violence! You call for blood? Very well, blood and violence is what you shall recive!

I know many of you didn't want this. I know the vote was close and forced. Surrender and you will be unharmed. It is not too late to forge a new Circle. A better circle.
Resist and you will leave me no choice. The peoples of Thedas will not allow you to roam free. They *CANNOT* allow you to roam free. Your rebellion endangers everyone - yourself, your families, innocent bystanders. The sheer arrogance and blindness that leads some of you to ignore or dismiss the danger you present in madness.

You will return to the circles of your own free will, or we will drag you back in chains.
Make your choice and make it well.
May the Maker have mercy upon your souls."

"If you respect the Divine so much, I suggest you heed her council on this matter."

[Gwydden]

Xilizhra wrote...

"If you respect the Divine so much, I suggest you heed her council on this matter."

By Lothair:

There is the matter of rejection. You were given a chance at dialogue, and you refused. Are you to act like spoiled children, then, when denied to have all you desire? You have forced our hand. The Divine may be swayed by your irresponsible behaviour, but we templars will make sure that you are dealt with appropiately, even if compromise has to be forced down your throats. We know that, were you granted what you request, more would soon follow.

I will not let it happen.

Man, neutrality rocks.

Modifié par Gwydden, 29 octobre 2013 - 09:48 .

[Xilizhra]

Gwydden wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

"If you respect the Divine so much, I suggest you heed her council on this matter."

By Lothair:

There is the matter of rejection. You were given a chance at dialogue, and you refused. Are you to act like spoiled children, then, when denied to have all you desire? You have forced our hand. The Divine may be swayed by your irresponsible behaviour, but we templars will make sure that you are dealt appropiately, even if compromise has to be forced down your throats. We know that, were you granted what you request, more would soon follow.

I will not let it happen.

Man, neutrality rocks.

"We did not choose war. The templars did. You continue to press us and actively cut off any negotiations we might have had with the Chantry after our initial secession. All blood to be shed is on your hands."

Modifié par Xilizhra, 29 octobre 2013 - 09:49 .

[Ieldra]

Gwydden wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

"Indeed, that is the impression I get whenever Kamilah gets confrontational, and that's why I fail to be convinced by her. There seems to be an agenda of weakening the mages as a faction by causing discord, and there seems to be an agenda of watering down the cause of mage liberation until it doesn't exist any more. There are some non-negotiable concessions we need to extract from the Chantry. I'm willing to compromise in things I consider negotiable to give the Chantry what they deem non-negotiable, like an active hand in guarding against demonic possession, but there are limits beyond which the term "mage liberation" has lost all meaning.

Kamilah, your fanatical hatred of the Libertarian fraternity, and your unwillingness to consider seriously anything they say just because it comes from them is a liability. Whatever merits your other arguments might have, one who speaks of her fellow mages like a templar of Karras' kind, as if the Libertarians were all insane blood mages, has lost all credibility as a proponent of mage liberation."
 

Magister Nero to Warden-Commander Eorlin Amell:

I have heard much of your position, and I find your arguments to be truly fascinating. There is a question that I would ask of you, however. Considering the position mages "enjoy" in the countries influenced by your heretic Chantry, I seriously doubt any form of actual compromise beneficial to mages can be easily achieved in short term. At best, centuries of distrust and slander will prove extremely prejudicial for at least several generations.

The Imperial Chantry is much more open minded in these matters, and if handled properly, your Circles might be able to obtain support and funding without becoming subject to Tevinter politics. We also encourage magical research and posses our own templars to take care of security issues. Surely you can appreciate the benefits of our Chantry's sponsorship in both your revolution and the establishment of a better system in your nations.

I am no strange to the Grey Wardens. I respect their commitment and, because of your neutral status, feel intrigued regarding your opinion if an arrangement of this sort was to be made.

Eorlin Amell to Magister Nero:

"You are, no doubt, aware of the reputation the Imperial Chantry holds in the lands where the Orlesian Chantry is dominant. While I am personally of an open mind regarding your proposition, it is a politically dangerous one. First, it may be very hard to convince a majority of our mages of the merit of your proposition. No doubt many of them would regard it as a deal with a demon, and second, if we accept it, it will be impossible to reach any accomodation with the Orlesian Chantry. Thus, a decision that irreversible needs very careful consideration. In addition, there is the danger of becoming embroiled in religious disputes.

As a person with no stake at all in the religious side of the dispute, and aware as I am of the possible benefits, I am nonetheless prepared to give your propostion the careful consideration it deserves. However, I would ask you first to clarify your position on the practice of blood sacrifice, more specifically the extraction of blood from unwilling hosts in order to power magical effects. I am aware that this practice, while publicly denied, is widespread in Tevinter and apparently silently tolerated by the Imperial Chantry. I fear that allying with an organization which tolerates such practice would be considered a price too high even for our freedom by most mages outside of Tevinter, and I personally would, in this case, consider Kamilah's proposition a serious, perhaps even the more acceptable alternative."

Modifié par Ieldra2, 29 octobre 2013 - 10:30 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

"You trampled on the negotiations fist, mage!
 Your own words condemn you:

You continue to press us and actively cut off any negotiations we might have had with the Chantry after our initial secession.

Your intial secession was a spit in the face of the Chantry, an act of defience and an crime, born from other crimes.
You have lied, killed your own and fostered abominations. Then you
resorted to violence once your attempt at coercing rebellions was found.
Then you have the gall to say we refuse negotiations?

You choose wore. You voted for it. You pushed for it.
Thefore, the blood that will flow is on your hands."

[Xilizhra]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

"You trampled on the negotiations fist, mage!
 Your own words condemn you:

You continue to press us and actively cut off any negotiations we might have had with the Chantry after our initial secession.

Your intial secession was a spit in the face of the Chantry, an act of defience and an crime, born from other crimes.
You have lied, killed your own and fostered abominations. Then you
resorted to violence once your attempt at coercing rebellions was found.
Then you have the gall to say we refuse negotiations?

You choose wore. You voted for it. You pushed for it.
Thefore, the blood that will flow is on your hands."

"It is not your role to make political decisions for the Chantry. If you continue to be a duly appointed representative of the Chantry that would like to discuss the state of the Circle, I will be glad to speak with you. Otherwise, you have no authority on this matter and we will continue defending ourselves.

Also, I voted on nothing. I was never even captured by the Circle in the first place. I'm only here to defend innocent lives from your treachery."

[Gwydden]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Eorlin Amell to Magister Nero:

"You are, no doubt, aware of the reputation the Imperial Chantry holds in the lands where the Orlesian Chantry is dominant. While I am personally of an open mind regarding your proposition, it is a politically dangerous one. First, it may be very hard to convince a majority of our mages of the merit of your proposition. No doubt many of them would regard it as a deal with a demon, and second, if we accept it, it will be impossible to reach any accomodation with the Orlesian Chantry. Thus, a decision that irreversible needs very careful consideration. In addition, there is the danger of becoming embroiled in religious disputes.

As a person with no stake at all in the religious side of the dispute, and aware as I am of the possible benefits, I am nonetheless prepared to give your propostion the careful consideration it deserves. However, I would ask you first to clarify your position on the practice of blood sacrifice, more specifically the extraction of blood from unwilling hosts in order to power magical effects. I am aware that this practice, while publicly denied, is widespread in Tevinter and apparently silently tolerated by the Imperial Chantry. I fear that allying with an organization which tolerates such practice would be considered a price too high even for our freedom by most mages outside of Tevinter, and I personally would, in this case, consider Kamilah's proposition a serious, perhaps even the more acceptable alternative."

I am aware of the difficulties the implementation of such a system would entail. I am also aware of the reputation my country has in the rest of the continent, and I would advise you to no believe everything you hear. Between rivals, political slander and exageration is a common practice. I will not deny there is truth in your assertions, however, but I would like to clarify some aspects of them.

Many of my colleagues entertain morally questionable practices, yet they are not essentially different from those the Orlesian Chantry tolerates of nobles in their areas of influence. We have stories of the joys of the outside world too. Just a few weeks ago, Marcher mages fleeing from Kirkwall and Starkhaven told me how your templars enjoyed themselves. Tales of the entertainment the Orlesian aristocracy gets from unwilling peasants are not uncommon either. Compare to that, I would argue blood sacrifices, while far from untarnished, accomplishes a purpose other than pointless cruelty. I am not trying to engage in a debate over moral superiority. I am simply pointing out there is not a moral high ground here.

You did ask for my take on this matter though. I would not deny I have dabbled in such things when it became indispensable for my research, but my subjects were always war prisoners. Qunari prove to difficult ot be enslaved, and their only fate when captured is execution. I merely make sure their deaths count for something. After all, I am certain you, being a Grey Warden, can see how blood magic might prove useful in certain situations. I do not want to make assumptions, but it may be that your duty has already forced you into such a situation?

Now, I am well aware of the political ramifications of my proposition, as well as how for mages being raised under the Orlesian Chantry's doctrine the perception they have of Tevinter is everything. By no means I am implying you should trust me blindly. A careful and precise approach is required. I could persuade the Senate to send a discrete delegation to assist fellow mages in their uprising, in an unofficial way. I believe a mix of templars and magisters is the way to go. This alone would help considerably to close the rift between us.

Nero

Modifié par Gwydden, 29 octobre 2013 - 11:26 .

[MisterJB]

Honestly, if the mages wants to go to Tevinter, the Templars should just let them. Some will be enslaved by their fellow mages, others will be used as cannon fodder against the Qunari and one or two might become a Magister in which s/he will then partake in the enslavement and callous use of former comrades.

Certainly, Andrastian nations will lose some military power for some time but Tevinter will, by no means, gains any significant advantage. A few hundred mages will not make the Qunari budge when two Exalthed Marches couldn't and if they try to use these new troops against the South they risk losing the whole country to the grey giants in which case Tevinter refugees will strengthen Andrastian nations; if they send these mages alone without support, all that it will occur is that the Templars will continue fighting the enemy they were already fighting, except this time it will wear Tevinter colours and support its expansion which will help turn the general population against them.

So, by all means, let the mages go to Tevinter. The Andrastian Kingdoms will just rebuild their Circle and use this as a cautionary tale.

[Gwydden]

MisterJB wrote...

Honestly, if the mages wants to go to Tevinter, the Templars should just let them. Some will be enslaved by their fellow mages, others will be used as cannon fodder against the Qunari and one or two might become a Magister in which s/he will then partake in the enslavement and callous use of former comrades.

Certainly, Andrastian nations will lose some military power for some time but Tevinter will, by no means, gains any significant advantage. A few hundred mages will not make the Qunari budge when two Exalthed Marches couldn't and if they try to use these new troops against the South they risk losing the whole country to the grey giants in which case Tevinter refugees will strengthen Andrastian nations; if they send these mages alone without support, all that it will occur is that the Templars will continue fighting the enemy they were already fighting, except this time it will wear Tevinter colours and support its expansion which will help turn the general population against them.

So, by all means, let the mages go to Tevinter. The Andrastian Kingdoms will just rebuild their Circle and use this as a cautionary tale.

I would like to point out that what I (Nero) was suggesting is not that mages go to Tevinter, but rather that they accepted the sponsorship of the Imperial Chantry, instead of that of the Archon/Senate. As it holds more benevolent views on magic, this would be a way for mages to gain support without having to subject themselves to the authority of the Tevinter aristocracy. Of course, the Orlesian Chantry wouldn't like this in the slightest, but I was merely pointing our the possibility.

Also, I would like to stress I am not pro-mage, not pro-templar. I am just trying to see the argument from all different viewpoints. This particular discussion sparked with the fact that, in order for mages to establish a viable new Circle system, they would have to make some concessions to the Orlesian Chantry.

Modifié par Gwydden, 30 octobre 2013 - 12:31 .

[Ieldra]

Eorlin Amell to Sister Nightingale, encrypted communication:

Esteemed Sister,

I apologize for the overly formal way of address, but I think it is inadvisable to add to the list of people who know your identity, should this letter be intercepted. I am writing this to inform you that the Imperial Chantry has extended an offer to send a delegation to support mages in their struggle for liberation. Find enclosed a summary of our communication. Experienced in these matters as you are, you will be immediately aware of the political ramifications, as well as of the fact that I am not giving you this information without self-interest. I consider it disadvantageous for us mages to accept such an offer at this time, but you will understand that I feel it is my duty to keep an open mind about it, should the situation deteriorate further.

I am also taking the long view in this. It may or may not be necessary to make a controversial alliance if mages cannot reach a compromise with the (Orlesian) Chantry, that depends on many things. However, there is the qunari threat to consider. In the hypothetical situation that my actions should benefit the Imperial Chantry on one hand, and the Empire by extension, or benefit the qunari by their omission, with everything else being equal my mind and my heart are undivided as to where my support would go.

Regardless of our philosophical differences, I do hope we remain friends, and get the opportunity to sample the Orlesian wines together we talked about in the past, after this conflict has settled. With that, I remain

your old friend,

Eorlin Amell.

PS: Forgive me if I do not disclose the names of my contacts. I would not wish to hear of their sudden death.


Eorlin Amell to an undisclosed recipient at the Andoral's Reach mage conclave:

"My dear friend,

with more than a little trepidation I should inform you that the Imperial Chantry has extended an offer to support us in our struggle for liberation. Find enclosed a summary of our communication. This is a matter that should be discussed. Personally, I think it inadvisable to accept such an offer at this time, but it may serve as a stick to hold over the Orlesian Chantry in order to make them more willing to compromise. After all, it is not in their interest to drive "their" mages into the arms of their arch-enemy. Apart from that, it is good to have an alternative should we not reach some kind of accomodation. However, I think I am not in the position to make such a decision on my own, thus this letter. I leave it to your discretion whom to inform first of this unexpected development, and how to disseminate the knowledge of this new option to all. Whatever your decision, know that I am personally not opposed to closer contact with the Imperial Chantry. I have always been curious about the kind of knowledge they have acquired there, and which "our" Chantry may have hidden from us by prohibiting certain avenues of research even where it does no damage to anyone. If I recommend caution, it is more for political reasons. Handled wrongly, the mere knowledge of this offer could drive a wedge between mage factions and make unity impossible to achieve instead of merely very difficult. That would only benefit the templars.

Regards,

Eorlin Amell"


Eorlin Amell to Magister Nero:

"Magister,

I thank you for your explanations. Know that I have made the knowledge of your offer available to the leaders of the mage conclave, with the recommendation that immediate acceptance is inadvisable at this time since such an action is controversial enough to fracture the already fragile unity of the conclave. I do, however, keep an open mind, and have equally advised my contacts that they should do the same, and familiarize our mages with the fact that a co-operation between us may become a possibility.

I have asked you to clarify your position on the practice of blood sacrifice. You have done so, and it is only fair that I do the same. I do not believe in intangible evils, which means that as long as blood power is given willingly, I have no problem whatsoever with the practice of blood magic. Beyond that, however, I would not cross without extreme necessity, and I find that political squabbles between magisters do not fulfil that condition, as opposed to, maybe, stopping a Blight. Know that I am no stranger to pragmatism, and I feel that it is generally politically disadvantageous to preclude co-operation with anyone, regardless of differences in culture and values, but nonetheless such differences will put a strain on any alliance.

Regardless of the political events, may I express my personal interest in future communication. I think our knowledge of the Imperium is sadly lacking and tainted by propaganda. Mages above everyone else should consider it an obligation to see for themselves what others would prevent them from seeing, and make up their own minds. I also do not believe in the prohibition of knowledge, since history teaches us it is all too likely that should you attempt it, those who you do not wish to have some specific knowledge will acquire it first. I believe you and I may be of the same mind in this.

Regards,

Eorlin Amell

[Ah, I just hope DAI will not invalidate too much of all this. Wouldn't it be beautiful if one year from now, all this could
be connected seamlessly with the events of DAI?]

Modifié par Ieldra2, 30 octobre 2013 - 12:47 .

[MisterJB]

Gwydden wrote...
I would like to point out that what I (Nero) was suggesting is not that mages go to Tevinter, but rather that they accepted the sponsorship of the Imperial Chantry, instead of that of the Archon/Senate. As it holds more benevolent views on magic, this would be a way for mages to gain support without having to subject themselves to the authority of the Tevinter aristocracy. Of course, the Orlesian Chantry wouldn't like this in the slightest, but I was merely pointing our the possibility.

Also, I would like to stress I am not pro-mage, not pro-templar. I am just trying to see the argument from all different viewpoints. This particular discussion sparked with the fact that, in order for mages to establish a viable new Circle system, they would have to make some concessions to the Orlesian Chantry.

And what would a sponsorship from the Imperial Chantry win the mages beyond even more dislike from the general population of the Andrstian kingdoms?
The Imperial Chantry can publicably state their support for the mage uprising which will amount to nothing; or it can provide money, soldiers and good.
However, either those offers will be enough to make difference; which would be a risk given the Qunari in the North; or, well, they won't make a difference.

And there is also the question of just what Tevinter would gain from supporting the mages.
I'd suspect Tevinter would be far more interested in the continuation of hostilities between mages and normals; as a means of softening up the southern kingdoms for a future invasion; than in the victory of one side.
Altough that also carries dangers given that weaker neighboring humans kingdoms; regardless if they're lead by normals or by mages; mean less support against a possible Qunari push.

[Gwydden]

MisterJB wrote...

And what would a sponsorship from the Imperial Chantry win the mages beyond even more dislike from the general population of the Andrstian kingdoms?
The Imperial Chantry can publicably state their support for the mage uprising which will amount to nothing; or it can provide money, soldiers and good.
However, either those offers will be enough to make difference; which would be a risk given the Qunari in the North; or, well, they won't make a difference.

And there is also the question of just what Tevinter would gain from supporting the mages.
I'd suspect Tevinter would be far more interested in the continuation of hostilities between mages and normals; as a means of softening up the southern kingdoms for a future invasion; than in the victory of one side.
Altough that also carries dangers given that weaker neighboring humans kingdoms; regardless if they're lead by normals or by mages; mean less support against a possible Qunari push.

Outside influence might be worth a little effort to the Imperial Chantry. A small contribution to the actual revolution could allow them to achieve some trust among foreign mages. Later, they would act some legitimacy to the independent Circles, not because the other Andrastian nations would care about what they said, but because there is a difference between messing with broken Circles and doing so when said Circles have the backup of an important organisation. Also, the Imperial Chantry must have access to lyrium and other important resources mages will need to get going in the long run. Even if other countries dislike the alliance, they would hesitate to actually do something about it, if it would risk an Exalted March, spark a war with Tevinter and rush the Qunari to their invasion.

Again, I don't necessarily think it's a good idea, but it is worth considering.

[MisterJB]

Gwydden wrote...
Outside influence might be worth a little effort to the Imperial Chantry. A small contribution to the actual revolution could allow them to achieve some trust among foreign mages. Later, they would act some legitimacy to the independent Circles, not because the other Andrastian nations would care about what they said, but because there is a difference between messing with broken Circles and doing so when said Circles have the backup of an important organisation. Also, the Imperial Chantry must have access to lyrium and other important resources mages will need to get going in the long run. Even if other countries dislike the alliance, they would hesitate to actually do something about it, if it would risk an Exalted March, spark a war with Tevinter and rush the Qunari to their invasion.

Again, I don't necessarily think it's a good idea, but it is worth considering.

If the Qunari invaded in full, the ones who would lose first and foremost would be Tevinter. Templars who have abandoned the Chantry should be willing to call Tevinter on their bluff. And if the Imperial Chantry did respond, that would be seen as an expansionist effort by the kingdoms.
Whatever meagre efforts Tevinter could muster away from the Qunari frontlines would stand no chance against a proper Orlesian or Nevarran army.
 
Or perhaps the kingdoms would be too afraid of starting a war with Tevinter; work towards preventing the free Templars from provoking them and then influence in the extablished Circles in the South could prove a boon to Tevinter if these Circles become economically dominant which I predict they would.

[Gwydden]

MisterJB wrote...

If the Qunari invaded in full, the ones who would lose first and foremost would be Tevinter. Templars who have abandoned the Chantry should be willing to call Tevinter on their bluff. And if the Imperial Chantry did respond, that would be seen as an expansionist effort by the kingdoms.
Whatever meagre efforts Tevinter could muster away from the Qunari frontlines would stand no chance against a proper Orlesian or Nevarran army.

When Tevinter broke away from the Orlesian Chantry, all the other nations united failed to conquer it. Now they are likely too caught up with the Qunari to put up a similar resistance should they be attacked, but I don't think the other countries would be willing to enter a war with what may very well be the only thing stopping the Qunari from invading in full. They haven't done it so far, after all.

And yes, if the Imperial Chantry responded, it would be seen as an expansionist effort. That's the point. People might not want to give Tevinter and excuse to carry on their expansionist agenda.
 

MisterJB wrote...

Or perhaps the kingdoms would be too afraid of starting a war with Tevinter; work towards preventing the free Templars from provoking them and then influence in the extablished Circles in the South could prove a boon to Tevinter if these Circles become economically dominant which I predict they would.

That was the situation I was picturing, pretty much.

Modifié par Gwydden, 30 octobre 2013 - 01:40 .