1656 réponses à ce sujet

[lil yonce]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
"So, have you chosen to side with the templars?"

"Indeed, that is the impression I get whenever Kamilah gets confrontational, and that's why I fail to be convinced by her. Kamilah, your fanatical hatred of the Libertarian fraternity, and your unwillingness to consider seriously anything they say just because it comes from them is a liability. Whatever merits your other arguments might have, one who speaks of her fellow mages like a templar of Karras' kind, as if the Libertarians were all insane blood mages, has lost all credibility as a proponent of mage liberation."

"Typical Libertarian bullsh*t. You return to that lie like a dog to its vomit.

Put away that fool talk for it is more than irritating vinegar on my teeth or smoke in my eyes-- a false accusation is as deadly as a sword or sharp arrow. 

I work for peace in criticism and for that you condemn me to death? 

People who set traps for others get caught themselves. People who start landslides get crushed.

Remember that."

"There seems to be an agenda of weakening the mages as a faction by causing discord, and there seems to be an agenda of watering down the cause of mage liberation until it doesn't exist any more. There are some non-negotiable concessions we need to extract from the Chantry. I'm willing to compromise in things I consider negotiable to give the Chantry what they deem non-negotiable, like an active hand in guarding against demonic possession, but there are limits beyond which the term "mage liberation" has lost all meaning."

"You've ample time to address my last missive-- that you didn't says you've no wise comment on reform.

We are done.

I will not try to talk sense to a fool for never will he appreciate it."

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 31 octobre 2013 - 02:37 .

[Medhia Nox]

@KainD: Instant heroes are borish wish fulfillment by people who will never ever be one.

So, I write whiners.

[Lazy Jer]

This in-character letter writing looks fun.  Hope no one minds me tossing one in with my Warden's perspective.

An Open Letter to All Wardens Regarding the Templar/Mage Conflict:

The Circle's decision to split from the Chantry and the Templars decision to do the same is, naturally, going to cause a lot of strife all across Thedas.  I understand that many Wardens are going to want to feel drawn into the conflict.  I also understand that, as Wardens, we can't.  The Wardens have one concern, and that's the 'spawn.  In all other matters we are meant to remain neutral.  It's the price one of the prices we pay to be Grey Wardens.  Should another Arch Demon rise and begin yet another blight we can't allow a situation where, for political reasons, the Wardens aren't allowed into the country the blight centers on - or even worse they are attacked when they do.  As wardens we should remain neutral in this conflict.

Notice I said should.  That's because I realize that we're not just Wardens, we're people, and those ties that bound us before we were Wardens don't just magically disappear once we are accepted into the ranks.  I, personally, know I would have taken up arms against Arl Howe's thugs when he decided to slaughter those living in the Alienage.  So I understand that those of you with a personal stake in the Circle conflict wanting, or for that matter needing to get involved.

I only say this.  If you do involve yourself in the Mage verses Templar conflict, make it plain that you are not doing so as a Grey Warden.  Do not declare yourself as a Grey Warden to those your fight with or against and make sure if they know you're a Warden that they know you're acting on your own without the permission or endorsement of the Grey Wardens.  Maker knows the Wardens have enough trouble as it is without the a bunch of quickly offended nobles think we're taking a personal stake in this thing. 

In closing, cold as this may sound, I intend to take no part in this unless my life or the life of my fellow unaligned Wardens are put at risk because of it, or if my kin get caught in the middle.

Signed,

S. Tabris

[Ieldra]

@Youth4Ever:
Just as an meta-level comment: I don't know how you misread what I wrote as condemning anyone to death, and I simply forgot your last longer post between those of others. But I agree further communication between Kamilah and Eorlin is likely pointless. In Eorlin's eyes Kamilah supports an appeasement policy that will change exactly nothing and, more importantly, sabotages all of his efforts to make mages speak with the unified voice needed to gain anything significant by diplomacy. If not enough progress is made by talking and the more radical factions turn to war, Kamilah will have contributed to that outcome by needlessly (!!) alienating the radicals and weakening the mages' overall position. She has also said that she'd like to see the Libertarians die in "their" war, which means she has expressed a preference for the templar opposition - which are, after all, those would kill her fellow mages - for the sake of satisfying internal rivalries and ideological differences at a time when unity is more needed than ever and everyone needs to compromise. Eorlin sees that as a betrayal. Also, for all her calling for compromise with the Chantry, she stayed remarkably uncompromising towards another mage faction in spite of repeated appeals to stop sowing discord needlessly. That reduces her credibility. In Eorlin's eyes, Kamilah is the kind of person who, if sent to speak for the mages, would make unnecessary concessions just to spit their internal rivals in the eye.

This just to explain Eorlin's thought processes.

 @Lazy Jer:
Nice. That perspective was missing.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 31 octobre 2013 - 07:33 .

[lil yonce]

Ieldra2 wrote...
@Youth4Ever:Just as an meta-level comment: I don't know how you misread what I wrote as condemning anyone to death, But I agree further communication between Kamilah and Eorlin is likely pointless.

I didn't misread it. Accusing her of being a templar agent and branding her a liability-- and for the second time in writing-- is positively murderous should some chest-beating Libertarian take that seriously. So she says, harshly, to stop doing it.

and I simply forgot your last longer post between those of others. 

You could still reply to it. Kamilah says they are done but that does not mean they have to be.

In Eorlin's eyes Kamilah supports an appeasement policy that will change exactly nothing and, more importantly, sabotages all of his efforts to make mages speak with the unified voice needed to gain anything significant by diplomacy. If not enough progress is made by talking and the more radical factions turn to war, Kamilah will have contributed to that outcome by needlessly (!!) alienating the radicals and weakening the mages' overall position. Just to explain Eorlin's thought process.

He can explain that in a reply to her last missive.

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 31 octobre 2013 - 08:28 .

[Ieldra]

Youth4Ever wrote...
He can explain that in a reply to her last missive.

All right.

[Ieldra]

[For the sake of readability, I have chosen not to incorporate Kamilah's parts into the letter format, but to stick with forum conventions]

Eorlin Amell to Kamilah:

Kamilah,

you asked for my opinion of your latest proposition. Whatever I may think of the contents - and I will get to that - it has at least the advantage of being constructive and presenting a basis for debate. Here are my thoughts:

Youth4Ever wrote...
"And what you consider wholly unfair subordination, I consider sober and negotiable regulation. A renewed Chantry-Circle relationship must obviously become one of symbiotic give-and-take-- realistically, Warden, you must understand it will never become an affair in which your every Libertarian desire is satisfied. I have supported greater Circle autonomy, but absolute autonomy is simply not feasible-- the clergy will not encourage it, they will not aid it, and certainly not lend to it any legitimacy. Think on it, Warden-- a rebellious Chantry arm challenges their might in all dimensions and that is cause enough to denounce it. When the priesthood then thinks on the public good, they will break a Libertarian led revolution with all the power they can muster. For any support, we must accept, in appropriate measure, Chantry authority.

"That is supposing they can still break it with the power they have left. What I propose is that we use the military weakness of the Chantry to extract greater concessions than we would've been able to gain at any other time. It is possible that we need to compromise more than I would be willing to give at this point, but I will not enter negotiations with defeat as my goal. Any step away from full political autonomy is a failure, and while I do not expect complete success since as you say, compromise is necessary, I will nonetheless keep my goal in mind.

Also, the threat of war is a useful tool, and there must be a line we are not willing to cross, since there are concessions without which all our struggles will be meaningless. I do not want war, but I am prepared to wage it if certain minimum concessions are not gained. We can debate which minimum concessions those should be."

I have recommended this arrangement-- a strong, centralized government in which the Circle handles all commericial, civil, and criminal matters itself in full. The Chantry can advise the Circle in such manners, but templars will not, nor will any templar serve full time in a Circle. Instead they will serve in their own compounds very nearby, to be called to action when necessary-- though a sturdy, rotating patrol guard should be present in all Circles, at all times, to render immediate emergency services. Chantry officials and templars can expect full disclosure regarding Circle research and experimentation, and Circle constabulary cooperation in criminal investigations beyond Circle borders where, still, punishment is decided by the Circle of Magi. Next, I recommend the drafting of individual Circle constitutions to cultivate ownership in the new government, and to bridge individual Circle rights with collective Circle governance and Chantry guidance. While they must conform to a set of standards and powers instituted by the College of Enchanters, Circle constiutions are free to build a culture of reform more suitable to the context of a specific Circle. Rivaini mages and their traditions, for example, can reasonably be afforded less scrutiny in their practices, for Nevarran mortalitasi are certainly afforded less scrutiny in theirs, and have for centuries been.

"This does not sound too different from what I have proposed, and the idea of encouraging different Circle cultures has merit. However, in this case I would propose that we enter negotiations with an agreed-upon strategy, in order to gain as much autonomy as possible from templar presence."

In this arrangement, vested still, and only, in the Chantry is the power to call the Circle of Magi into war, and also all other interests of foreign affairs, but appointing one delegate, emissary, and ambassador to serve as court mages in the kingdom which they reside.

"This I would not be willing to concede on a permanent basis. It is important that mages are free to throw their support behind a cause of their choice, limited only by the realities of the existing power structure. Even more so, there is little more insulting than being forced to fight for a cause you do not believe in. Not all mages are Andrastean. I see this matter is of concern, and certainly mages as mages (as opposed to being Fereldans, Orlesians etc.) have never shown much interest in politics, so limiting mages' influence as a faction in foreign affairs is acceptable. Individual mages, however, should be able to offer their service to any army of their choice, and the Chantry should not have the right to call the Circles to war at their convenience. Treaties with individual Circles, which should be possible given the greater diversity, may be more specific." 

Still, the Chantry will control surface lyrium trade, and reserve the authority to create templars.

"Mages cannot be truly free while denying them the right to seek their own lyrium supply independently from the Chantry. We might not want to openly challenge their de-facto monopoly, but we should also not seek to regulate this in a treaty, since this would needlessly limit ourselves."

[/i]And again, Justinia V is replacing historical dogma and culture, and if her attempts are not reassuring enough for you, consider that Lucrosian compromise regards templar interests seriously and has fully incorporated them into reform plans, and if neither that is assurance enough, consider the spirit of compromise inherently acknowledges bitter, bloody extremes in seeking to avoid them-- templar attempts to revive draconian doctrine will have over them the true, and then legitimate, threat of unending war, something I do not believe the majority will hurriedly commit to after the present trial. I do not fear war Eorlin, simply, it is never inevitable, it is not inherently right, nor is it ever a matter of good versus evil-- it is the last resort in a line of appeals good men and women will first attempt in earnest, but Libertarians always and vehemently oppose."

"I find Justinia's reforms reassuring enough that I am willing to support her. I am much less confident about concessions made to templars. The amount of concessions you propose is one of two reasons I am still skeptical of your position. The other is your needlessly confrontational stance towards the Libertarian faction. I am trying to find a unifying voice for all mages, establishing compromises between factions. There are hotheads in all factions, but there are also a majority of reasonable people. Remember that the goal of the Libertarian fraternity is not war but autonomy from the Chantry. They are not warmongers. We may not be able to gain full autonomy, but that should not prevent us from trying to get as much as we can. Yet again, I will not enter negotiations with defeat as my goal. Also, for all that you call for compromise with the templars, a thought that, while perhaps unavoidable, is nonetheless immensely galling, you are remarkably uncompromising towards your fellow mages. It is not surprising that mages call your allegiance into question if you appear to give templars more consideration than other mages, and if you are so confrontational as to sabotage all my efforts to engender unity. It does not speak well of you if your tone is more inflammatory than that of the Libertarians you accuse of warmongering, and at least, when they get radical, it is aimed at those who would see us all imprisoned again, not at their fellow mages. I think your proposition, while going further than I am confortable with, and certainly not one with which I would enter negotiations, has merit nonetheless, but yet again, I ask you to stop sowing discord. It is enough to make me doubt your sincerity. "

Modifié par Ieldra2, 31 octobre 2013 - 08:55 .

[lil yonce]

@Ieldra2; Are you also planning a response to her last message at the top of the page-- separately or as a precursor to Eorlin's last letter, or do you want to exclude it from this continuity? I'd like to keep it as part of the their exchanges.

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 31 octobre 2013 - 08:52 .

[Ieldra]

Youth4Ever wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
"So, have you chosen to side with the templars?"

"Indeed, that is the impression I get whenever Kamilah gets confrontational, and that's why I fail to be convinced by her. Kamilah, your fanatical hatred of the Libertarian fraternity, and your unwillingness to consider seriously anything they say just because it comes from them is a liability. Whatever merits your other arguments might have, one who speaks of her fellow mages like a templar of Karras' kind, as if the Libertarians were all insane blood mages, has lost all credibility as a proponent of mage liberation."

"Typical Libertarian bullsh*t. You return to that lie like a dog to its vomit.

Put away that fool talk for it is more than irritating vinegar on my teeth or smoke in my eyes-- a false accusation is as deadly as a sword or sharp arrow. 

I work for peace in criticism and for that you condemn me to death? 

People who set traps for others get caught themselves. People who start landslides get crushed.

Remember that."

"For the sake of continuing communication, I will not give these statements the response they deserve. You dug the hole in which you fell yourself, and I will not apologize for voicing an impression many will have when reading your needlessly inflammatory rhetorics. Remember that I am not a member of the Libertarian fraternity. I have my own personal philosophy which overlaps somewhat with Libertarian thought, but I am unaligned. What I am doing is to seek a unified voice for all mages. What am I to think of one who does her best to sabotage all my attempts at achieving unity and bringing the radicals into the fold, and promotes compromise with templars while being uncompromisingly hostile towards other mages? You let internal rivalries damage the cause of mage liberation, and even more you appear to deliberately sow discord since your rhetoric against the Libertarians certainly serves no constructive purpose. Consider for a moment how that looks to others.

I said your propositions have merit. On their own, they have - I will discuss them in a separate missive [see above] and deserve further deliberation and discussion. Combined with your statements about other mages, however, they look sinister and make people doubt your allegiance. I am not stoking internal rivalries. I am concerned. Perhaps a reminder is in order that it is the templars' atrocities that brought us to this point."

Modifié par Ieldra2, 31 octobre 2013 - 09:58 .

[Medhia Nox]

Lord Daylen Amell,

It would seem that my ignorance managed to attract the attentions of several members of your esteemed family. I feel bad for the poor Collective messenger that was told to bring it to "an Amell."

I appreciate your offer. We have many sick, and several wounded. Perhaps, if we come close I will try to take you up on your offer and see to it that those who wish to, or must, find safe harbor behind your walls.

As for the rest of us, we're growing accustomed to being on the move. There are many towns we've found gutted by conflict. Several were raided, I imagine local Banns are having trouble stopping opportunistic bandits, while others appeared to be the sites of deliberate conflicts between Templars and Mages.

A curiosity. We came across one town untouched, but silent . Only a little child remained, a young girl with an unnerving smile. She told us of a night when the sky began to sparkle with a rainbow of colors, and when she awoke in the morning everyone had simply gone.

We stayed some distance from the town, and saw for ourselves the strange luminescence. The veil is thin there Warden. We heard sounds. Howling and moaning and laughter. None of us ventured close, but the little girl seemed delighted at the spectacle. We were gone from the place quickly in the morning.

When we are fortunate enough to reach your haven, I will relate if there is any more strangeness. Surely someone capable will be able to deal with the situation far better than a pack of scavengers.

I would ask only that should your Warden Commander bring you into the pressing conflict between the mages and Templars - that you allow any who wish, safe passage from your walls.

You have my sincerest thanks,
Medhia Nox of the Unkindness

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 31 octobre 2013 - 10:55 .

[dragonflight288]

Medhia Nox wrote...

Lord Daylen Amell,

It would seem that my ignorance managed to attract the attentions of several members of your esteemed family. I feel bad for the poor Collective messenger that was told simply to bring it to an Amell.

I appreciate your offer. We have many sick, and several wounded. Perhaps, if we come close I will try to take you up on your offer and see to it that those who wish to, or must, find safe harbor behind your walls.

As for the rest of us, we're growing accustomed to being on the move. There are many towns we've found simply gutted by conflict. Several seemed simply raided, I imagine local Banns are having trouble stopping opportunistic bandits, while others seemed to be the sites of deliberate conflicts between Templars and Mages.

A curiosity. We came across one town that seemed utterly untouched. Only a little child remained, a young girl with an unnerving smile. She told us of a night when the sky began to sparkle with a rainbow of colors, and when she awoke in the morning everyone had simply gone.

We stayed some distance from the town, and saw for ourselves the strange luminescence. The veil is thin there Warden. We heard sounds. Howling and moaning and laughter. None of us ventured close, but the little girl seemed delighted at the spectacle. We were gone from the place quickly in the morning.

When we are fortunate enough to reach your haven, I will relate if there is any more strangeness. Surely someone capable will be able to deal with the situation far better than a pack of scavengers.

I would ask only that should your Warden Commander bring you into the pressing conflict between the mages and Templars - that you allow any who wish, safe passage from your walls.

You have my sincerest thanks,
Medhia Nox of the Unkindness

To Medhia Nox

I can come out personally. I can have a team there within a fortnight with me.

As the acting-Warden Commander of Ferelden, I can guarantee safe passage, but as per my neutrality as a Warden, so too would the templars be granted the same courtesy.

If you and yours can respect the peace, you will be left alone.

You reply is greatly appreciated, and so to is the knowledge you've presented us. Please be aware in the future, however, that if the Darkspawn end up on the move again, my duty as a Warden will take precedence. I can help how I can, but my attention must be focused on the darkspawn. At present, my arling is free of the darkspawn so I am free to come check out that village.

Yours in correspondance,

Daylen Amell, Acting Warden Commander.

[cjones91]

 Here's something from my elven mage Rita Surana:

"I had learned about the Circle's separation from First Inchanter Irving and part of me secretly wished it would happen.Life at the Circle is good but my years as a warden and seeing what my fellow mages went through opened my eyes to what abuses had occured.Even the mages here in Fereldan are somewhat conflicted about the news yet most want to help in whatever way they can,my friends would probaly be surprised at me for saying this but I wish to help fight for a better future for everyone:mages and mundanes included.

This war will be bloody and my magic will certainly be of great help considering I've been studying all the schools of magic.Yes.....even blood magic which I would only use in dangerous circumstances will likely be one of my greatest tools in this conflict.I wish we could've stopped the extremists in the Libertarian Fraternity from pushing us into this conflict but alas......what has passed cannot be undone and so we must move forward and try to solve this problem with little casualties as possible.I will be getting ready to leave soon and I likely won't be around to see you my love,take care of yourself Zevran and may the Maker watch over us both."

Yours only....Senior Enchanter Rita Surana.

[dragonflight288]

To avoid confusion guys, Ieldra and I discussed in PM's the difference between her Amell and my Amell. They're cousins. She's the Hero of Ferelden, and was the Warden Commander. I think she stepped down and Daylen is the current Acting-Warden-Commander.

[Shadow Fox]

My favorite Warden's take on the war:

"Seriously?It's hard enough being a Grey Warden while *SECRETLY~Alistair*trying to improve my people's lot in a world that sees them as barely above vermin without worrying about men in dresses who want to kill each other."

~Ashe Tabris

[Ieldra]

dragonflight288 wrote...
To avoid confusion guys, Ieldra and I discussed in PM's the difference between her Amell and my Amell. They're cousins. She's the Hero of Ferelden, and was the Warden Commander. I think she stepped down and Daylen is the current Acting-Warden-Commander.

*Chuckles*. This is the second time Eorlin is mistaken for a woman. Does "Eorlin" appear to be a woman's name? **somewhat confused**. For clarification: Eorlin is a human male mage.

Apart from that, so it is. Eorlin implicitly stepped down as Warden-Commander when he followed Morrigan through the eluvian, and later sent a letter to make that explicit (and let his friends in Ferelden know he was still alive).

Modifié par Ieldra2, 01 novembre 2013 - 08:09 .

[Lazy Jer]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

My favorite Warden's take on the war:

"Seriously?It's hard enough being a Grey Warden while *SECRETLY~Alistair*trying to improve my people's lot in a world that sees them as barely above vermin without worrying about men in dresses who want to kill each other."

~Ashe Tabris

"Technically the men who wear dresses are trying to kill the men with buckets on their heads...and vice versa.  But I see your point."

-Soic Tabris

[Lazy Jer]

Ieldra2 wrote...
*Chuckles*. This is the second time Eorlin is mistaken for a woman. Does "Eorlin" appear to be a woman's name? **somewhat confused**. For clarification: Eorlin is a human male mage.

Apart from that, so it is. Eorlin implicitly stepped down as Warden-Commander when he followed Morrigan through the eluvian, and later sent a letter to make that explicit (and let his friends in Ferelden know he was still alive).

It's probably the picture that throws people off.

[cjones91]

Here's my Amell Warden's take on the war:

"So it has come to this.....when news had spread to Amaranthine that the mages and templars had rebelled I could do nothing but show disbelief.I hope you are doing well Alistair though I imagine you have your hands full dealing with political matters.I do not know what to think about all this except that I hope this war ends soon,those fool zealots on both sides are probaly enjoying the fact that they have their war....I would love nothing more than to freeze them all for their actions.

I will try to stay out of this conflict given the fact that the darkspawn are still around....the Architect is still finding ways to rid the darkspawn of the Old God's song.The mere thought makes me uneasy still but we must do everything possible to end the Blights once and for all,with the war between the Circle mages and templars in swing I will be too busy to visit you in Denerim.Be safe my love and hopefully I can see you soon...."

From Fereldan Warden Commander Selena Amell.

[Ieldra]

Lazy Jer wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
*Chuckles*. This is the second time Eorlin is mistaken for a woman. Does "Eorlin" appear to be a woman's name? **somewhat confused**. For clarification: Eorlin is a human male mage.

Apart from that, so it is. Eorlin implicitly stepped down as Warden-Commander when he followed Morrigan through the eluvian, and later sent a letter to make that explicit (and let his friends in Ferelden know he was still alive).

It's probably the picture that throws people off.

In that case....edited to show Eorlin's picture.

[lil yonce]

[quote]"For the sake of continuing communication, I will not give these statements the response they deserve. You dug the hole in which you fell yourself, and I will not apologize for voicing an impression many will have when reading your needlessly inflammatory rhetorics.[/quote]"Someone who holds back the truth causes trouble, but one who openly criticizes works for peace.

Good people will be rewarded for what they say, but those who are deceitful are hungry for violence. 

I know those things.

And I know that when a fool speaks trouble is not far off. 

Do you have any care for what you say? Do you claim any honor? I cannot trust you with my life and that does not shame you?"

[quote]Remember that I am not a member of the Libertarian fraternity. I have my own personal philosophy which overlaps somewhat with Libertarian thought, but I am unaligned.[/quote]"You are Libertarian. Plan for plan, and method for method, and thought for thought, you are in tune. What are you if not one of them? A polluted spring or poisoned well? I have arguments enough to convert you to my views if so, but if not, my words are like birds that fly by and never light."

[quote]What I am doing is to seek a unified voice for all mages. What am I to think of one who does her best to sabotage all my attempts at achieving unity and bringing the radicals into the fold, and promotes compromise with templars while being uncompromisingly hostile towards other mages?[/quote]"I only present the the truth, and, as I've said before, if doing so sabotages your revolution it was never a worthwhile revolution to pursue."

[quote]You let internal rivalries damage the cause of mage liberation, and even more you appear to deliberately sow discord since your rhetoric against the Libertarians certainly serves no constructive purpose. Consider for a moment how that looks to others.[/quote]"There is no rivalry to speak of-- there is only the current disagreement on direction. Bloodthirsty people hate anyone who is honest for violence is sown in deceit. I present the Libertarians as they are for there is no more worthwhile an endeavor than peace. My words hold no undue hardness or severity."

[quote]I said your propositions have merit. On their own, they have - I will discuss them in a separate missive [see above] and deserve further deliberation and discussion. Combined with your statements about other mages, however, they look sinister and make people doubt your allegiance. I am not stoking internal rivalries. I am concerned. Perhaps a reminder is in order that it is the templars' atrocities that brought us to this point."[/quote]"You have to whip a horse, bridle a donkey, and beat a fool. Only the rod of correction will take us from the warpath Libertarians have set us on and my pen is my rod. Fools cannot be allowed to wage a stupid war."

[quote]you asked for my opinion of your latest proposition. Whatever I may think of the contents - and I will get to that - it has at least the advantage of being constructive and presenting a basis for debate.[/quote]"I don't write of unimportant things, Warden. All my writings are truthful and constructive."

[quote]That is supposing they can still break it with the power they have left. What I propose is that we use the military weakness of the Chantry to extract greater concessions than we would've been able to gain at any other time.[/quote]"The clergy will betray Justinia and support the templars if they've no other way to reinstate some form of the Nevarran Accord. The templars will accept their authority after Justinia's assassination, for she is the whole object of their present controversy-- and where else will they easily get the supplies and lyrium needed to function as an order or have the ready opportunity to re-accrue the moral and political legitimacy they've burned through in this conflict? And they act in the name of the Maker-- separation from the Chantry hasn't changed that. And still they operate on Chantry dogma.

It is an alliance fit to reform.

We must initiate negotiations now, and once in them we cannot be inflexible. The chance at avoiding slaughter wanes with every tick of the clock."

[quote]"It is possible that we need to compromise more than I would be willing to give at this point, but I will not enter negotiations with defeat as my goal. Any step away from full political autonomy is a failure, and while I do not expect complete success since as you say, compromise is necessary, I will nonetheless keep my goal in mind."[/quote]"I will repeat, Warden, we cannot be so inflexible. 

Defeat is not the goal. 

Peace before more bloodshed is the goal.

A real foundation to build a suitable future is the goal. 

You will not have full autonomy, and I suggest you adjust to that reality."

[quote]"This does not sound too different from what I have proposed, and the idea of encouraging different Circle cultures has merit. However, in this case I would propose that we enter negotiations with an agreed-upon strategy, in order to gain as much autonomy as possible from templar presence."[/quote]"And what strategy do you suggest?"

[quote]This I would not be willing to concede on a permanent basis. It is important that mages are free to throw their support behind a cause of their choice, limited only by the realities of the existing power structure. Even more so, there is little more insulting than being forced to fight for a cause you do not believe in. Not all mages are Andrastean. I see this matter is of concern,... Individual mages, however, should be able to offer their service to any army of their choice, and the Chantry should not have the right to call the Circles to war at their convenience. Treaties with individual Circles, which should be possible given the greater diversity, may be more specific.[/quote]"And mundane soldiers have say in who and what they fight for? 

Do mages not believe in fighting Blight or Qunari as they've done under the Chantry?

Has the Circle never taken political advantage of a war it otherwise had no interest in?

Warden, this will likely be a non-negotiable control. Mages are kept in Chantry Circles in part to keep their power from a national stage. It is a basic security to Thedas, and in reform, the greatest assurance we will accept some Chantry authority. 

But that does not mean there is no way around it once in place as I will explain."

[quote]and certainly mages as mages (as opposed to being Fereldans, Orlesians etc.) have never shown much interest in politics, so limiting mages' influence as a faction in foreign affairs is acceptable."[/quote]"Handing Circle foreign affairs to the Chantry is a constraining enough control in the beginning, but, importantly, as time wears on, our diplomats will strenghten ties with kingdoms and it will weaken. We can influence nations from within their courts and they can argue with Chantry officials on whatever policy they desire to include mages in on our behalf.

Do you see the logic of things? 

If truly mages want to war for some cause or other we can dwarf our threat behind national politics and lobby real power the Chantry will appease to do so."

[quote]Mages cannot be truly free while denying them the right to seek their own lyrium supply independently from the Chantry. We might not want to openly challenge their de-facto monopoly, but we should also not seek to regulate this in a treaty, since this would needlessly limit ourselves."[/quote]"This control seems strong on paper but in practice it will be relatively weak. Once we have the funds-- gained from a strong focus on commerce for there resides our untapped power-- the Circle will buy lyrium from the Chantry rather than accept whatever little it dispenses.

The Chantry should not object for lyrium is costly, and, as they yield no direct benefit from it, their coin is better spent elsewhere-- on universities and cathedrals and the poor, and, as I reccommend, on the templar order. 

If reduced Circle expenses mean better pay and better benefits for them and their families, they too will conclude that the Circle should buy its own lyrium.

In this arrangement should the Circle ever overstep its bounds the Chantry has a real pressure tool, and one that doesn't threaten violence-- if they squeeze the lyrium supply enough our operations come to a standstill.

It is not a tactic they will use often for they will derive too much benefit from this agreement, and once nations enjoy the services only we can provide, they will fight the Chantry on this measure."

[quote]"I find Justinia's reforms reassuring enough that I am willing to support her. I am much less confident about concessions made to templars. The amount of concessions you propose is one of two reasons I am still skeptical of your position.[/quote]"They are not concessions to the templar order. Perhaps I phrased it badly. Templar interests are, in my mind, another thing. What does your average templar care for? His life, his coin, his quarters, his family, and the public good-- addressing that in reform, as I have done, is critical to rallying support from their camp."

[quote]The other is your needlessly confrontational stance towards the Libertarian faction. I am trying to find a unifying voice for all mages, establishing compromises between factions. There are hotheads in all factions, but there are also a majority of reasonable people. Remember that the goal of the Libertarian fraternity is not war but autonomy from the Chantry. They are not warmongers. We may not be able to gain full autonomy, but that should not prevent us from trying to get as much as we can. Yet again, I will not enter negotiations with defeat as my goal.[/quote]"It is the Libertarians who are needlessly confrontational and not I. 

They have led mages to this gruesome trial and not I.

I am convinced they are now nothing but a detriment to our cause. 

I endeavor to show others the truth and weakness of their stupid position. I cannot talk sense to obstinate Libertarian fools for never will they appreciate it, but I can present things as they are to the Circle. 

If people listen to me it is because they have seen wisdom in my words."

[quote]Also, for all that you call for compromise with the templars, a thought that, while perhaps unavoidable, is nonetheless immensely galling, you are remarkably uncompromising towards your fellow mages. It is not surprising that mages call your allegiance into question if you appear to give templars more consideration than other mages, and if you are so confrontational as to sabotage all my efforts to engender unity. It does not speak well of you if your tone is more inflammatory than that of the Libertarians you accuse of warmongering, and at least, when they get radical, it is aimed at those who would see us all imprisoned again, not at their fellow mages.[/quote]"Only Libertarians call my alligence into question.

Only they call for war and deny they are warmongers. 

Others see the logic in my politics. 

If your rebellion cannot hold up to questioning and to truth, it is not a rebellion worth my participation."

[quote]I think your proposition, while going further than I am confortable with, and certainly not one with which I would enter negotiations, has merit nonetheless."[/quote]"It is not as harsh as you believe it to be. It looks so on paper but that is by design-- the Chantry must feel comfortable enough with reform to entertain it.

There is enough potential in it to deliver, in the end, a Circle similar to your desire."

[quote]but yet again, I ask you to stop sowing discord. It is enough to make me doubt your sincerity. [/quote]"The sincerest pleas could not stop me from penning the truth, Warden.

Expect what is correct and deserved."

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 13 janvier 2014 - 01:21 .

[Gwydden]

Magister Nero to Kamilah:

I understand you are of the "Lucrosian" fraternity. If I have interpreted your words correctly, you hope to buy your way to freedom. To which I say, really? Don't get me wrong, I'm aware riches can be useful sometimes. But as a coercive method, they usually only work with the weak minded. Do you believe the Orlesian Divine will be swayed by wealth and some reassuring words? Amazing, what people can foul themselves into. Or maybe you know what you are doing, but simply don't care? Just in case, allow me to spell it out for you.

Your Chantry won't accept the liberation of your kind any time soon. The best you can achieve is compromise. You say eventually it will be better, but that is a weak promise, and rather vague. When is eventually? A few years, a few decades, a few centuries? You are asking your colleagues to leave freedom for future generations. You are willing to settle, to bow down. Fine. Other aren't. They don't want to live in chains, to be anyone subjects. What will determine whether they deserve it is whether they can gain it.

You wish to avoid war. How noble of you. Still, this is the only way any of you has been able to come up with, that truly holds hope for those who lives today, hope that they'll say a day went they don't have to be bound by others. Oh, many will day, don't doubt it for a second. Well, that's too bad, but why don't you seem to care quite as much for serfs in Orlais, for slaves in my country, for elves everywhere and for everyone the Qunari have forced to serve them? Why, because it doesn't affect you. Because you can't do a bloody thing about it.

Because it is unavoidable.

People will suffer in this conflict between templars and mages. That is guaranteed. Many of them would have suffered anyway. If the war hadn't started, many others, mostly mages, would have in their place. This is merely trading fates. Mages can do what you suggest, surrender themselves to their oppresors, or in fancy speech, "compromise". What makes you even think the situation will tip in their favor? Are you truly so naive as to believe your Chantry, a much more powerful and influential organisation, won't make their best to ensure is the other way around?

One way or another, mages will not be free! But hold on, they will have this grand consolation, that their children, or maybe their children's children, or the children of those, just might have everything they were denied! Isn't it beautiful? And of course, it isn't as if the war has already started, and all these templars and mages breaking away from they Chantry were only going through a temper tantrum, so surely these oh so determined men and women can be persuaded, now of all times, that compromise is actually such a great option! What an original idea.

Change is coming to the world. There's no helping it. No one can't stop it now. It may be that to finally be free your people will have to slaughter every Orlesian templar and burn their Chantry to the ground. Grey Wardens will tell you all things come with a price. It has never been more true. If you truly want to help, you may want to work towards limiting the damage. If you want the war to stop so badly you would never collaborate with Libertarians, I suggest you find your own army. Some resolutions can't be bought, cannot be negotiated. I believe someone more idealistic would tell you there are causes worth fighting for.

I am not the kind to sugarcoat it, though. Sometimes, you just have to earn what you want.

The results can be bloody.

Modifié par Gwydden, 01 novembre 2013 - 10:33 .

[Ieldra]

Eorlin Amell to Kamilah:

Kamilah,

I believe that of possible gains towards mage liberation, enough has has been said and our positions are clear and unlikely to change. We may or may not find a common position in any negotiations with the Chantry, we will see. There is, however, one more thing that needs to be said:

You say you are speaking from a position of truth, as if you had the weight of the world as it is behind your words. I say you are not, because there is no single truth. Truth is a matter of perspective. It is something I have learned in my travels, and I learn it every day anew.

Yes, there are those of us who want more than a compromise with the Chantry. There are those who want retribution for a thousand years of enslavement, or more personal evils done more recently. Only a very small minority lets that desire rule their actions, but many, many more have it. Sometimes, we talk about it, here in my hidden place out of reach of the templar's phylactery magic. I must tell these people that they cannot have what they desire. It is nothing they do not already know, but sometimes it must be spoken aloud to be confronted. I, too, have that desire, and I must fight it every day, calming my mind as we learn to do when encountering a rage demon, transforming my passion into cool strategy and goals more beneficial to ourselves in the end. You say you speak from a position of truth, but your words tell me you do not know even a tiny bit of that desire for retribution, and because you do not, a significant part of our people's truth escapes you.

A few days ago, I spoke with a mage girl who had been raped by a templar. In any non-mage human, the rage she felt towards that templar would have been considered good and healthy, but it cannot be allowed to be encouraged in a mage. When I told her, she lost control to a rage demon unsurprisingly present. She was there with her mage father and her mage lover, and we had to kill her. When the fight was over, nobody said a word, but what we felt at that moment could not have been more obvious had it been written on our foreheads: we cannot have what we desire, and what we can have will never be enough.

There are many such stories. Most, granted, much less dramatic than this one, but similar in spirit. Can you blame the two survivors that if they cannot have retribution, then, at the very least, they never want to see a templar in their lives again? Can you blame them if they think we should fight for such an outcome, that they think it impossible to settle for anything less? Can you blame them that they want to destroy a system that allowed that templar to walk free instead of reforming it? Yet you would denounce them as fools and warmongers with a complete lack of empathy. By your words, you would not regret to see them die. As mages, they are already the Maker's orphans, yet you would cast them out again. When they read your words, they feel betrayed by their own.

Me, they trust. Why? Because while I do not hide from them the realistic limits of what we can achieve, and what we might have to sacrifice if we want to achieve more, I also do not judge them; because implicit in my words is the promise that I will do my utmost to help create a future where they don't need to see a templar again in their lives. Perhaps we will not get there - and that, too, I do not hide from them - but it is and remains the goal. Preferably, to achieve significant gain towards that goal, we will not need to go to war for much longer, but there are limits to what I would be willing to concede. There is a line beyond which the only option that does not constitute a betrayal is to fight. You call that inflexible, yet it is I who have evaluated your suggestions with an open mind, acknowledging merit where I found it, and you who has not moved one tiny step from your confrontational position. Who is the inflexible one here?

I said you dug the hole in which you fell yourself. This is the reality of it: Because of what you said, the people in the story I told you and many others like them would never trust your leadership now, no matter how reasonable your suggestions look on paper. Their story is a shard of our people's many-faceted truth, and if you do not respect it, it is you who will be left by the wayside.

Eorlin Amell.

[Odd coincidence: just now, I played a scene in DA2 where Isabela tells Hawke that she trusts him because he always says what he thinks but doesn't judge people. Also, leave it to a Tevinter magister to spell out another shard of truth in a more direct manner than Eorlin ever would]

Modifié par Ieldra2, 02 novembre 2013 - 10:25 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

From: First Enchanter Echtellion

"It is unfortunately a common occurence for the most vocal and extremist elements to speak of freedom and rebellion, and supplant it with 'evidence' of templar cruelty and poor arguments.
Eorlin Amell speaks of a raped mage as if it is a common occurence. These zealots use Kirkwall as an example of an average Circle, when nothing could be further from the truth.
I myself live in a well ordered and peacefull Circle. Occasionaly, incidents happens and rumor are heard- but those are few and far in between and expected. For every story like that, I can replay with a dozen of a good life within a Cirlce and of good templars.

Or does Amell truly belive that once outside of the circle, no misfortune will ever befall a mage? That a mage will never face despiar? Anger? Lust? That only a templar is capable of abuse or rape? Had a mage raped her, would you be calling for a rebellion? No, you would not.
No system is perfect, and neither are the circles. There WILL be abuses every now and then and guilty will occasionaly go unpunished - it's the way of the world, and the Circles are no exception, and won't be no exception, regardless who were to lead them. The rebels would have you belive otherwise - but they are delluding themselves.
No, we were given a way to change the Circles. The Divine gave us a chance to voice our concern and propose changes. But our own representatives betrayed us by pushing us into a war most of us didn't want. Even their vote of sucession barely passed, even under duress.
The ring-leaders of this farce have no right to claim majority, have no right to put themselves as sole arbiters of the mage futures. They had no right to push us into this war. And yet here we are.
No, Amell, I wouldn't trust you and neither would any of my charges.
You use negative emotions as fuel for your agenda, you set goals you know you can't achieve and promise the young ones things you cannot give them.
You and your kind leech on their false hope in pursuit of your own goals of vengance, and mask it as some righteous revolution.
There will be glory, no bright future, no carthasis.
The truth you will not - cannot - accept is that the rebellion was doomed to fail."

[Laughing_Man]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

From: First Enchanter Echtellion

"It is unfortunately a common occurence for the most vocal and extremist elements to speak of freedom and rebellion, and supplant it with 'evidence' of templar cruelty and poor arguments.
Eorlin Amell speaks of a raped mage as if it is a common occurence. These zealots use Kirkwall as an example of an average Circle, when nothing could be further from the truth.
I myself live in a well ordered and peacefull Circle. Occasionaly, incidents happens and rumor are heard- but those are few and far in between and expected. For every story like that, I can replay with a dozen of a good life within a Cirlce and of good templars.

Or does Amell truly belive that once outside of the circle, no misfortune will ever befall a mage? That a mage will never face despiar? Anger? Lust? That only a templar is capable of abuse or rape? Had a mage raped her, would you be calling for a rebellion? No, you would not.
No system is perfect, and neither are the circles. There WILL be abuses every now and then and guilty will occasionaly go unpunished - it's the way of the world, and the Circles are no exception, and won't be no exception, regardless who were to lead them. The rebels would have you belive otherwise - but they are delluding themselves.
No, we were given a way to change the Circles. The Divine gave us a chance to voice our concern and propose changes. But our own representatives betrayed us by pushing us into a war most of us didn't want. Even their vote of sucession barely passed, even under duress.
The ring-leaders of this farce have no right to claim majority, have no right to put themselves as sole arbiters of the mage futures. They had no right to push us into this war. And yet here we are.
No, Amell, I wouldn't trust you and neither would any of my charges.
You use negative emotions as fuel for your agenda, you set goals you know you can't achieve and promise the young ones things you cannot give them.
You and your kind leech on their false hope in pursuit of your own goals of vengance, and mask it as some righteous revolution.
There will be glory, no bright future, no carthasis.
The truth you will not - cannot - accept is that the rebellion was doomed to fail."

Doomed rebelion or not, it is to be expected that someone like a first enchanter would conform to the old rules.
Not only does his political power depends on the circles as they were, he is either appointed by the templars, or at least has to get their approval to be appointed.

[Lotion Soronarr]

First Enchanters are elected by mages and mages alone. Nice try.

And consequently, it is to be expected by those greedy for more power, the young, foolish and impatient to challenge the old rules.
You cannot rise to power until those who currrenlty are there are not removed.