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[Gwydden]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

First Enchanters are elected by mages and mages alone. Nice try.

And consequently, it is to be expected by those greedy for more power, the young, foolish and impatient to challenge the old rules.
You cannot rise to power until those who currrenlty are there are not removed.

There were plenty of high ranking mages opting for the revolution.

[Ieldra]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
First Enchanters are elected by mages and mages alone. Nice try.

And consequently, it is to be expected by those greedy for more power, the young, foolish and impatient to challenge the old rules.
You cannot rise to power until those who currrenlty are there are not removed.

Easy to say you shouldn't strive for power if your organization already has all the power. In fact, it's usually those in power who tend to say this most often, which doesn't exactly make their case any more convincing. Those with influence will always propagate the meme that power corrupts, and those without power lap it up because it makes their powerless state bearable and even virtuous. The simple truth is that for any given power structure, there is no intrinsic reason why it is preferable for those in power to stay there, and no instrinsic reason not to turn the existing structure upside down.

Unsurprising, that the templars are going to defend theirs and try to deny legitimacy to those who would challenge it.

The typical mage of the revolution doesn't want to rule, but wants one power: the power to be left alone. For some odd reason, that's always the power others want to deny them most.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 02 novembre 2013 - 02:54 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

A double-edged sword? A coin with two sides?

For example, am I the wrong person to make a judgment on a topic because I'm very familliar with it, and thus biased, or am exactly the right person for it? Any virtue can be oresented as a flaw, and any flaw as a virtue.
Once could say there is always a different way to look at things, but that is moot.

Suffice to say, we were given a chance to make the Circles a better place without bloodshed, and that chance was destroyed by those without patience, without moderation, those to whom what they have is never enough.

[Xilizhra]

Suffice to say, we were given a chance to make the Circles a better place without bloodshed, and that chance was destroyed by those without patience, without moderation, those to whom what they have is never enough.

Indeed. The templars.

[Ieldra]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
A double-edged sword? A coin with two sides?

For example, am I the wrong person to make a judgment on a topic because I'm very familliar with it, and thus biased, or am exactly the right person for it? Any virtue can be oresented as a flaw, and any flaw as a virtue.
Once could say there is always a different way to look at things, but that is moot.

Suffice to say, we were given a chance to make the Circles a better place without bloodshed, and that chance was destroyed by those without patience, without moderation, those to whom what they have is never enough.

Indeed. By the templars who overstepped their authority. The plain fact is that the decision was to fight the templars, not the Chantry, and the vote might have gone differently if a templar army hadn't been on its way.

[MWImexico]

@Lotion : Rape, even if it happens not often, is inacceptable. Period. When I read your post, it seems like for you it's no big deal since, every thing else in the circle works good (I'm paraphrasing you).

Perhaps I could take your advice on the matter more seriously if you choosed to incarnate a low level mage instead of a powerfull one. Templars are already occupying a position of power, I think it could be a better excercice for you to put yourself in the shoes of someone who is more in contact of the everyday life of a mage in the circle. For exemple, the father of the girl who has been raped or her boyfriend?

[Ieldra]

I think it was clear that the rape example is a symbol, a placeholder for those injustices that happen to mages in a Circle every day, even if this particular example does not, feeding a desire for retribution - which in the end they cannot have. And the problem is not that these things happen, but that the system is constructed in a way that they're easy to get away with - as in any system where one group has institutionalized power over another. There are many such power structures, but in almost all cases you can escape them by leaving, and thus abuse of power tends to weaken the system over time and it won't be tolerated by its rulers. The Circle is a prison system where you can't leave, and thus there is no automatic self-regulation.

I don't believe that power corrupts in an absolute sense, but such a system attracts the corruptible, and that its ideology has a religious justification doesn't help. People will do anything if they believe they have their gods on their side.

(Also, the rape example was not used to justify revolution. It was used as a justification for Eorlin's demand not to denounce those who want complete autonomy from the templars as fools and warmongers. Blaming the victim really isn't nice)

Modifié par Ieldra2, 02 novembre 2013 - 04:03 .

[lil yonce]

Gwydden wrote...Magister Nero to Kamilah:I understand you are of the "Lucrosian" fraternity. If I have interpreted your words correctly, you hope to buy your way to freedom. To which I say, really? Don't get me wrong, I'm aware riches can be useful sometimes. But as a coercive method, they usually only work with the weak minded. Do you believe the Orlesian Divine will be swayed by wealth and some reassuring words? Amazing, what people can foul themselves into. Or maybe you know what you are doing, but simply don't care? Just in case, allow me to spell it out for you. Your Chantry won't accept the liberation of your kind any time soon. The best you can achieve is compromise. You say eventually it will be better, but that is a weak promise, and rather vague. When is eventually? A few years, a few decades, a few centuries? You are asking your colleagues to leave freedom for future generations. One way or another, mages will not be free! But hold on, they will have this grand consolation, that their children, or maybe their children's children, or the children of those, just might have everything they were denied! Isn't it beautiful? And of course, it isn't as if the war has already started, and all these templars and mages breaking away from they Chantry were only going through a temper tantrum, so surely these oh so determined men and women can be persuaded, now of all times, that compromise is actually such a great option! What an original idea.

"Total autonomy has never been my objective. The only way to ensure any measure of personal liberty, for any thedosian, is to fairly ensure order. Unconstrained magocray does not promote fair order, as your country demonstrates. My rights end where anothers begin-- I understand that well and it is something you should learn."

You are willing to settle, to bow down. Fine. Other aren't. They don't want to live in chains, to be anyone subjects.

"They can remain apostates if they wish. I give the whereabouts and welfare of rigid fools no consideration."

You wish to avoid war. How noble of you. Still, this is the only way any of you has been able to come up with, that truly holds hope for those who lives today, hope that they'll say a day went they don't have to be bound by others. Oh, many will day, don't doubt it for a second. Well, that's too bad, but why don't you seem to care quite as much for serfs in Orlais, for slaves in my country, for elves everywhere and for everyone the Qunari have forced to serve them? Why, because it doesn't affect you. Because you can't do a bloody thing about it.Because it is unavoidable.

"I am not an Orlesian serf nor a Tevinter slave nor an elf or viddithari. I am a Circle mage and I strive to settle the issues most pertinent to me. There is no shame in that. That is simply reality. Revolution will occur wherever there is oppression-- that is a fact-- thus I need not condemn myself for answering the call of Circle reform."

your Chantry, a much more powerful and influential organisation, won't make their best to ensure is the other way around?

"And thus negotiations are held for good reason, magister."

Change is coming to the world. There's no helping it. No one can't stop it now. It may be that to finally be free your people will have to slaughter every Orlesian templar and burn their Chantry to the ground. Grey Wardens will tell you all things come with a price. It has never been more true. If you truly want to help, you may want to work towards limiting the damage. If you want the war to stop so badly you would never collaborate with Libertarians, I suggest you find your own army. Some resolutions can't be bought, cannot be negotiated. I believe someone more idealistic would tell you there are causes worth fighting for. I am not the kind to sugarcoat it, though. Sometimes, you just have to earn what you want.The results can be bloody.

"War is never inevitable and only a fool would have me believe otherwise.

Your intervention in Circle politics is, as anyone can conclude, wholly selfish in motivation. You've plans to use the Circle here as some sort of tevinter tool? To make it some stooge of your black chantry? This attempt will amount to nothing more than an old man's failed power play.

Your rude tone, and ambition, and grandiose schemes must come, I'm sure, from a superabundance of secretions which you can't find enough wh*res to absorb. Hunt down a few to entertain you and leave Circle business to Circle mages.

---

Enjoy now your tevinter comforts, magister. 

When the underclasses together rebel against mage authority in your land, I'm certain I'll hear of and smirk at your loud screams for compromise."

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 08 novembre 2013 - 04:04 .

[cjones91]

Youth4Ever wrote...

Gwydden wrote...Magister Nero to Kamilah:I understand you are of the "Lucrosian" fraternity. If I have interpreted your words correctly, you hope to buy your way to freedom. To which I say, really? Don't get me wrong, I'm aware riches can be useful sometimes. But as a coercive method, they usually only work with the weak minded. Do you believe the Orlesian Divine will be swayed by wealth and some reassuring words? Amazing, what people can foul themselves into. Or maybe you know what you are doing, but simply don't care? Just in case, allow me to spell it out for you. Your Chantry won't accept the liberation of your kind any time soon. The best you can achieve is compromise. You say eventually it will be better, but that is a weak promise, and rather vague. When is eventually? A few years, a few decades, a few centuries? You are asking your colleagues to leave freedom for future generations. One way or another, mages will not be free! But hold on, they will have this grand consolation, that their children, or maybe their children's children, or the children of those, just might have everything they were denied! Isn't it beautiful? And of course, it isn't as if the war has already started, and all these templars and mages breaking away from they Chantry were only going through a temper tantrum, so surely these oh so determined men and women can be persuaded, now of all times, that compromise is actually such a great option! What an original idea.

"Total autonomy has never been my objective. The only way to ensure any measure of personal liberty for any thedosian is to farily ensure order. My rights end where anothers begin-- I understand that well and it is something you should learn."

You are willing to settle, to bow down. Fine. Other aren't. They don't want to live in chains, to be anyone subjects.

"They can remain apostates if they wish. I give the whereabouts and welfare of rigid fools no consideration."

You wish to avoid war. How noble of you. Still, this is the only way any of you has been able to come up with, that truly holds hope for those who lives today, hope that they'll say a day went they don't have to be bound by others. Oh, many will day, don't doubt it for a second. Well, that's too bad, but why don't you seem to care quite as much for serfs in Orlais, for slaves in my country, for elves everywhere and for everyone the Qunari have forced to serve them? Why, because it doesn't affect you. Because you can't do a bloody thing about it.Because it is unavoidable.

"I am not an Orlesian serf nor a Tevinter slave nor an elf or viddithari. I am a Circle mage and I strive to settle the issues most pertinant to me. There is no shame in that. That is simply reality. Revolution will occur wherever there is oppression-- that is a fact thus I need not condemn myself for answering the call of Circle reform."

your Chantry, a much more powerful and influential organisation, won't make their best to ensure is the other way around?

"And thus negotiations are held for good reason, Magister."

Change is coming to the world. There's no helping it. No one can't stop it now. It may be that to finally be free your people will have to slaughter every Orlesian templar and burn their Chantry to the ground. Grey Wardens will tell you all things come with a price. It has never been more true. If you truly want to help, you may want to work towards limiting the damage. If you want the war to stop so badly you would never collaborate with Libertarians, I suggest you find your own army. Some resolutions can't be bought, cannot be negotiated. I believe someone more idealistic would tell you there are causes worth fighting for. I am not the kind to sugarcoat it, though. Sometimes, you just have to earn what you want.The results can be bloody.

"War is never inevitable and only a fool would have me believe so.

Your intervention in Circle politics is, as anyone can conclude, wholly selfish in motivation. 

You've plans to use the Circle here as some sort of tevinter tool? To make it some stooge of your black chantry? 

This attempt will amount to nothing more than an old man's wasted power play.

Your rude tone and ambition and grandiose schemes must come, I'm sure, from a superabundance of secretions which you can't find enough wh*res to absorb. FInd a few to entertain you and leave Circle business to Circle mages.

Enjoy now your tevinter comforts, senator. 

When the underclasses together rebel against mage authority in your land, I'm certain I'll hear of and smirk at your loud screams for compromise."

"Kamilah,it appears we have the same ideals in regards to how the Circle should be run.However this course cannot continue otherwise more rebellions will happen.I offer a compromise where the Circle Mages are allowed to leave if they have proven themselves able to control their power,this is the best solution that can favor all sides."

From Senior Enchanter Rita Surana.

[Ieldra]

Eorlin Amell to Rita Surana:

"Enchanter Surana,

your suggestion would be a perfectly acceptable solution. There can be no doubt that mages need to learn to control their power, and I have never denied that it is reasonable that they learn that in places constructed to contain any damage, and that while they are learning, it is plausible to demand that they do not leave. When I was living in the Circle of Ferelden, an apprentice training fire magic almost set the whole library ablaze, so I know the dangers first-hand. Though I wonder to this day who allowed training in fire magic to take place in a library.

What I reject is the idea that templars have authority over full mages, and what I reject is the idea that Chantry doctrine should determine what they can and can't learn. Also, mages resident in Circles must not be denied contact with their families. I am aware that many Circles don't do that, but some do, and this cannot continue.

Eorlin Amell

PS: My cousin Hawke is the perfect example of how well a mage can be trained outside of a Circle. So I do not think closed locations are a necessity for training. They do, however, have advantages, and if they make non-mages feel safer, it is an acceptable price to pay.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 02 novembre 2013 - 04:46 .

[lil yonce]

Ieldra2 wrote...
Indeed. By the templars who overstepped their authority. The plain fact is that the decision was to fight the templars, not the Chantry, and the vote might have gone differently if a templar army hadn't been on its way.

The war happened because:

• Fiona and Adrian hijacked Wynne and Justinia's compromise conclave.
• Adrian murdered Pharamond and framed Rhys for it hoping to illicit a reaction from Lambert mages could use as an excuse to rebel.
• And somehow (that is never quite explained) the Aequitarians decide a Libertarian should cast the deciding vote on separation for them, and at the time of the vote everyone has been tricked by Adrian.

And there is a significant passage of time before the templars march. Lambert alludes to Knight-Commanders with reservations going forward with his plan. Extremists sparked this war and not mages as a whole or templars as a whole. The war was never a foregone conclusion.

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 02 novembre 2013 - 05:06 .

[Ieldra]

Youth4Ever wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
Indeed. By the templars who overstepped their authority. The plain fact is that the decision was to fight the templars, not the Chantry, and the vote might have gone differently if a templar army hadn't been on its way.

The war happened because:

• Fiona and Adrian hijacked Wynne and Justinia's compromise conclave.
• Adrian murdered Pharamond and framed Rhys for it hoping to illicit a reaction from Lambert mages could use as an excuse to rebel.
• And somehow (that is never quite explained) the Aequitarians decide a Libertarian should cast the deciding vote on separation, and at the time of the vote everyone has been tricked by Adrian.

And there is a significant passage of time before the templars march. Lambert alludes to Knight-Commanders with reservations going forward with his plan. Extremists sparked this war and not mages as a whole or templars as a whole. The war was never a foregone conclusion.

I don't deny that extremists on both sides had their hands in it, but I don't think I agree with your interpretation of the events at the conclave. My memory is fuzzy though. Need to reread "Asunder".

[MWImexico]

Ieldra : I guess it's easier to get away with a crime if, globally, the people in charge thinks it's an acceptable price to pay to protect their system. As if there is absolutely nothing to do about it.

But I still vote for an improved circle. My main concern with the mages is the danger of possession. Nonetheless, I don't understand why mages should not be allowed to see their family? Have a family or not, temptation is everywhere. Jalousy (of mundane) could also lead to weakness and become a fertile soil for a demon searching for a prey.

Modifié par MWImexico, 02 novembre 2013 - 05:11 .

[Gwydden]

Youth4Ever wrote...

Your rude tone and ambition and grandiose schemes must come, I'm sure, from a superabundance of secretions which you can't find enough wh*res to absorb. Find a few to entertain you and leave Circle business to Circle mages.

That's... a strange insult xD.

Nero will answer later (probably).

[cjones91]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Eorlin Amell to Rita Surana:

"Enchanter Surana,

your suggestion would be a perfectly acceptable solution. There can be no doubt that mages need to learn to control their power, and I have never denied that it is reasonable that they learn that in places constructed to contain any damage, and that while they are learning, it is plausible to demand that they do not leave. When I was living in the Circle of Ferelden, an apprentice training fire magic almost set the whole library ablaze, so I know the dangers first-hand. Though I wonder to this day who allowed training in fire magic to take place in a library.

What I reject is the idea that templars have authority over full mages, and what I reject is the idea that Chantry doctrine should determine what they can and can't learn. Also, mages resident in Circles must not be denied contact with their families. I am aware that many Circles don't do that, but some do, and this cannot continue.

Eorlin Amell

PS: My cousin Hawke is the perfect example of how well a mage can be trained outside of a Circle. So I do not think closed locations are a necessity for training. They do, however, have advantages, and if they make non-mages feel safer, it is an acceptable price to pay.

"I am well aware what it's like not to know whether your family misses you or even thinks about you.My parents were killed during the Fifth Blight and there are many nights where I feel  the regret of not contacting them after leaving the Circle.For there to be a peaceful resolution to this many things must change on both sides of the conflict,while I myself am willing to fight it is not because I want to......I have to otherwise many of my fellow mages will be hurt."

From Senior Enchanter Rita Surana.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
A double-edged sword? A coin with two sides?

For example, am I the wrong person to make a judgment on a topic because I'm very familliar with it, and thus biased, or am exactly the right person for it? Any virtue can be oresented as a flaw, and any flaw as a virtue.
Once could say there is always a different way to look at things, but that is moot.

Suffice to say, we were given a chance to make the Circles a better place without bloodshed, and that chance was destroyed by those without patience, without moderation, those to whom what they have is never enough.

Indeed. By the templars who overstepped their authority. The plain fact is that the decision was to fight the templars, not the Chantry, and the vote might have gone differently if a templar army hadn't been on its way.

No, by the mages.

Lambert was right to arrest a murderer.
He was right to expose a demon in our midst. He didn't overstep his authority.

[cjones91]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
A double-edged sword? A coin with two sides?

For example, am I the wrong person to make a judgment on a topic because I'm very familliar with it, and thus biased, or am exactly the right person for it? Any virtue can be oresented as a flaw, and any flaw as a virtue.
Once could say there is always a different way to look at things, but that is moot.

Suffice to say, we were given a chance to make the Circles a better place without bloodshed, and that chance was destroyed by those without patience, without moderation, those to whom what they have is never enough.

Indeed. By the templars who overstepped their authority. The plain fact is that the decision was to fight the templars, not the Chantry, and the vote might have gone differently if a templar army hadn't been on its way.

No, by the mages.

Lambert was right to arrest a murderer.
He was right to expose a demon in our midst. He didn't overstep his authority.

Lambert did overstep his authority when he defied the Divine.

[Lotion Soronarr]

MWImexico wrote...

@Lotion : Rape, even if it happens not often, is inacceptable. Period. When I read your post, it seems like for you it's no big deal since, every thing else in the circle works good (I'm paraphrasing you).

Crime of any kind is technicly inacceptable.
Yet it happens and will never be completely stoped.
That is the reality.

Abuse IS a big deal, but you must accept the fact that no matter what security measure you take, you will NEVER get completely rid of it. EVER. The Seekers have failed us at Kirkwall, yes. Which is why changes are necessary so that it doens't happen again.
But a full-on war?

Templars are already occupying a position of power, I think it could be a better excercice for you to put yourself in the shoes of someone who is more in contact of the everyday life of a mage in the circle. For exemple, the father of the girl who has been raped or her boyfriend?

I will consider your words... if you consider an excercise of putting yourself in the shoes of anyone ever hurt by a mage.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 02 novembre 2013 - 05:16 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

cjones91 wrote...
Lambert did overstep his authority when he defied the Divine.

The Divine betrayed the templars.
The Inquisition (Templars and Seekers) joined the Chantry under a condition. A condition that wasn't met anymore.

[Gwydden]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

I will consider your words... if you consider an excercise of putting yourself in the shoes of anyone ever hurt by a mage.

The difference here, I'd say, is that people don't become mages by choice.

[lil yonce]

Gwydden wrote...

Youth4Ever wrote...

Your rude tone and ambition and grandiose schemes must come, I'm sure, from a superabundance of secretions which you can't find enough wh*res to absorb. Find a few to entertain you and leave Circle business to Circle mages.

That's... a strange insult xD.Nero will answer later (probably).

Glad you got a kick out of it. I was going for irregular but I didn't come up with it myself. I read where someone insulted Alexander Hamilton with that line and thought it was gold.

[cjones91]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

cjones91 wrote...
Lambert did overstep his authority when he defied the Divine.

The Divine betrayed the templars.
The Inquisition (Templars and Seekers) joined the Chantry under a condition. A condition that wasn't met anymore.

The Divine betrayed no one.When you deal in absolutes then you view the people who stay in the middle as enemies which is exactly how Lambert saw Justinia.

[MWImexico]

@Lotion : The idea is to learn from our mistakes, recognize them is good but not enough. If a high official admits that some flaws exist in a system under (her)his supervision without offering a plan to improve it at the same time, it is as if (s)he gave (her)his blessing to other potential criminals to use this flaw. Morally and politically it's bad.

I have no problem to imagine myself hurted by a mage, this happens to Hawke during the game, I have already roleplayed this situation many times. The thing is, mage or templar or elf or whatever, those things are irrevelant for me. If someone decide to hurt me, I won't blame his magic. Magic doesn't think or breathe or grudge, poeple do.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Gwydden wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

I will consider your words... if you consider an excercise of putting yourself in the shoes of anyone ever hurt by a mage.

The difference here, I'd say, is that people don't become mages by choice.

A difference that is ultimatively irrelevant.

[dragonflight288]

A difference that is ultimatively irrelevant.

Mainly because the templars chose, of their own doing, to leave and become lyrium abominations themselves. No forcible possession here.

Mages are born as they are. Templars choose to join, and as it's a military order they can and must be held accountable. The fact that they are not is a failing on their leaders, and in a military organization, the underlings failures are the leader's failures. Such is true in real life as well.