1656 réponses à ce sujet

[Ieldra]

Here's another thing to think about:

I think a part of the problem with templars is that they're fulfilling two roles: they're guardians against magic gone out of control, which is a necessary role and one that will continue to be necessary as long as the fundamentals of magic are as they are, but they're also political officers who look out for Chantry interests and report on mages' activities, and that's a wholly unacceptable role. I've hinted at that in the letter in the OP by saying that people with templar skills are needed, but preferably separate from the templar order. Any solution that's going to be even remotely acceptable to mages must drastically reduce the role of templars as political officers.

BTW:
Can anyone suggest a synonym for "political officer" appropriate for in-world documents and roleplaying?

[Gwydden]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Here's another thing to think about:

I think a part of the problem with templars is that they're fulfilling two roles: they're guardians against magic gone out of control, which is a necessary role and one that will continue to be necessary as long as the fundamentals of magic are as they are, but they're also political officers who look out for Chantry interests and report on mages' activities, and that's a wholly unacceptable role. I've hinted at that in the letter in the OP by saying that people with templar skills are needed, but preferably separate from the templar order. Any solution that's going to be even remotely acceptable to mages must drastically reduce the role of templars as political officers.

BTW:
Can anyone suggest a synonym for "political officer" appropriate for in-world documents and roleplaying?

Agents of the Chantry? My Middle Ages vocabulary is somewhat lacking.

But I don't think that explanation quite covers the issue here. The prove of that is how templars are willing to break away from the Chantry these days, so it is obvius that to them, at least, mages are their top priority. If anything, I'd say the problem with templars is they are used to having a lot of authority regarding magic and mages (see the Right of Annulment) and now they can't accept losing it, for one reason or the other.

[EmperorSahlertz]

 Knight-Commander,

We tracked him to a small hamlet near the border of Nevarra. The apostate had taken refuge within the local inn, hiding amongst the locals as a simple traveler. Hiding his true nature from the locals may have been easy, but for my men and I, equiped with his phylactery, it was only a question of time, before we found him. We cornered him in the inn, and quickly incapacitated him. He offered no resistance. Just as we were about to clasp him in irons and march him off to the fortress, the unimaginable happened. Fire started raining from the skies and demons walked the earth freely! At first we thought the mage had turned maleficar and I raised my sword to execute him, but the terror of the townsfolk were reflected on him. He was not the cause for this. I ordered my men to protect the hamlet, and leave the mage for another day. I know you will disapprove Knight-Commander, and so be it. But I refuse to let the commoners of Thedas suffer just so that we can continue this pointless conflict. My duty is to protect Thedas from magical threats, and the threat we faced here was the demons, not the apostate.

The demons were many, and some I could not even recognize from my trainning, but nevertheless my men and I prepared to sell our lives dearly, so that as many townspeople could be saved as possible. The demon fell upon us like a wolves amongst lambs. They tore us to pieces, and even our special talents were of little use to beings of such power. Just when things seemed hopeless, with more than half my men dead or worse, we recieved help from an unexpected ally. I had expected the apostate to take the oppertunity to escape his pursuers, but it would seem he shared my obligation to protect Thedas. The apostate had remained behind to help and guide the townspeople to safety, and had now returned to help us, his worn enemies. With his talents in tandem with what remained of ours, we were able to push the demons back. At the end of the battle most of the hamlet's population had been saved, though the hamlet itself was burned to the ground. My men and I were to exhausted to apprehend the apostate, and he escaped us again. It would also appear that his phylactery was somehow destroyed in the battle. Too bad, I suppose we will have to cease our pursuit of him now.  My men and I will now focus on keeping Thedas safe from actual magical threats, and that is not done by caging the best of us.

Knight-Commander I implore you to reprioritize all available men to combat this new threat, instead of continuing this pointless conflict. Mages and Templars will have to work together until this crisis is averted. What comes after will remain to be seen.

Ser Ian Leoncoeur

[Ieldra]

Gwydden wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Here's another thing to think about:

I think a part of the problem with templars is that they're fulfilling two roles: they're guardians against magic gone out of control, which is a necessary role and one that will continue to be necessary as long as the fundamentals of magic are as they are, but they're also political officers who look out for Chantry interests and report on mages' activities, and that's a wholly unacceptable role. I've hinted at that in the letter in the OP by saying that people with templar skills are needed, but preferably separate from the templar order. Any solution that's going to be even remotely acceptable to mages must drastically reduce the role of templars as political officers.

BTW:
Can anyone suggest a synonym for "political officer" appropriate for in-world documents and roleplaying?

Agents of the Chantry? My Middle Ages vocabulary is somewhat lacking.

But I don't think that explanation quite covers the issue here. The prove of that is how templars are willing to break away from the Chantry these days, so it is obvius that to them, at least, mages are their top priority. If anything, I'd say the problem with templars is they are used to having a lot of authority regarding magic and mages (see the Right of Annulment) and now they can't accept losing it, for one reason or the other.

Yes, that's true of the current situation. I was speaking more of the system as it was before the conflict escalated. Even assuming that the level of abuse by templars remained acceptable, being kept and watched by your ideological antagonists just isn't acceptable, even if you accept the idea that mages need to be watched in principle.  

@EmperorSahlertz:
I hope we'll meet a few templars of that reasonable kind in DAI along with the insane ones. My mage Inquisitor will be glad to work with them - as long as they forget he's an apostate until the Fade tear crisis is over.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 03 novembre 2013 - 01:22 .

[snackrat]

Ieldra2 wrote...

BTW:
Can anyone suggest a synonym for "political officer" appropriate for in-world documents and roleplaying?

Unfortunately they are already using the best term for that of the church's soldier: templar, as in, knights of the Order of the Temple.
They're effectively Holy Knights, as least in name.

Closest I can think of to 'political officer' would be in a military autocracy or police state. Which is in interesting way to think of it, seeing as the Chantry has more power than the crown in many matters (specifically relgious blesphemy, treatment of mages, and rules of chantries - the building), under threat of crusade.

Ultimately any army bows to the politics of those that lead them (eg the American army is democratic and enforces such), so there's no such thing as a non-political officer, if that means anything.

[MWImexico]

For the antagonist of the Inquisitor.

Dear,

I write those few words to express you all my gratitude about the tear you decided to open in the veil.
I'm a so called "mundane" who used to live in Kirkwall. During this time, despite everything, I encountered no problem with the mages (amazing hu?), I suppose I've been lucky.
On the other hand, in the mean time, some templars accused me for no reason of hiding apostates in my home, making my live a living hell during the time of their investigation.
I suppose I should not blame them for their lack of good sense, afterall, they also couldn't catch that the knight commander Meredith was losing her mind right before their eyes, as if it wasn't obvious.
So thanks for the tear in the veil, now templars and mages are busy to fix the problem while I can finally enjoy my cup of coffee and relax. As it should be.

Have a nice end of the world,
xxo Theresa von Mexico

[lil yonce]

You say you are speaking from a position of truth, as if you had the weight of the world as it is behind your words. I say you are not, because there is no single truth. Truth is a matter of perspective. It is something I have learned in my travels, and I learn it every day anew.

"Warden, if there is no absolute truth, there is no truth at all, and if there is no truth at all, no one is more right or wrong in anything than anyone else, thus all have license to commence with whatever action they feel best or necessary.

Coercion is then justifiable, as is baleful use of blood magic, indiscriminate slayings, consorting and militarizing demon hordes, the stripping of a mage's individual rights for a so-called "greater good", and all other kinds of force Libertarians advocate for to satisfy their anger and ambition.

There are absolutes and only those who wish to be unbound by them claim they do not exist.

That is what I have learned, and learn everyday anew."

Yes, there are those of us who want more than a compromise with the Chantry. There are those who want retribution for a thousand years of enslavement, or more personal evils done more recently. Only a very small minority lets that desire rule their actions, but many, many more have it.

"The issue is this-- the small minority that allows that hatred to dominate them is concentrated together within the Libertarian fraternity, and that fraternity has stupidly led every Circle mage to war."

Sometimes, we talk about it, here in my hidden place out of reach of the templar's phylactery magic. I must tell these people that they cannot have what they desire. It is nothing they do not already know, but sometimes it must be spoken aloud to be confronted. I, too, have that desire, and I must fight it every day, calming my mind as we learn to do when encountering a rage demon, transforming my passion into cool strategy and goals more beneficial to ourselves in the end. You say you speak from a position of truth, but your words tell me you do not know even a tiny bit of that desire for retribution, and because you do not, a significant part of our people's truth escapes you.

"Retribution belongs to no man. Justice, certainly, but not retribution. It belongs to the Maker.

You must put the desire for vengeance, and the hatred that sparked it, out of your head and out of your soul, crush it and toss it in a lake because it will do you no good in the end.

Retribution does not court me for it knows it wastes its efforts. I cannot work for peace and hide hatred in any corner of my heart. 

That you have yet to understand that says you are not commited to compromise."

A few days ago, I spoke with a mage girl who had been raped by a templar. In any non-mage human, the rage she felt towards that templar would have been considered good and healthy, but it cannot be allowed to be encouraged in a mage. When I told her, she lost control to a rage demon unsurprisingly present. She was there with her mage father and her mage lover, and we had to kill her. When the fight was over, nobody said a word, but what we felt at that moment could not have been more obvious had it been written on our foreheads: we cannot have what we desire, and what we can have will never be enough.

"And where I there, I would have told her that she has every right to be angry and every right to justice-- but not vengeance, and never does anyone else.

That templar should be punished -- put to death for the danger he is, but rage consumes her and not him.

It a perversion of a fair feeling, and thus a feeling to be rejected and not one to be exercised. It a spiritual disease that afflicts both mage and mundane and never does them any good.

Justice is honey to the soul. It is enough, and if it was not had in the old system - solace is its more perfect inclusion in the coming system.

I do not write that to condemn your words to her that night or to shame you, but to impart what wisdom I have in hope it will aid the next troubled mage you encounter."

There are many such stories. Most, granted, much less dramatic than this one, but similar in spirit. Can you blame the two survivors that if they cannot have retribution, then, at the very least, they never want to see a templar in their lives again? Can you blame them if they think we should fight for such an outcome, that they think it impossible to settle for anything less? Can you blame them that they want to destroy a system that allowed that templar to walk free instead of reforming it? Yet you would denounce them as fools and warmongers with a complete lack of empathy. By your words, you would not regret to see them die. As mages, they are already the Maker's orphans, yet you would cast them out again. When they read your words, they feel betrayed by their own. Me, they trust. Why? Because while I do not hide from them the realistic limits of what we can achieve, and what we might have to sacrifice if we want to achieve more, I also do not judge them; because implicit in my words is the promise that I will do my utmost to help create a future where they don't need to see a templar again in their lives. Perhaps we will not get there - and that, too, I do not hide from them - but it is and remains the goal. Preferably, to achieve significant gain towards that goal, we will not need to go to war for much longer, but there are limits to what I would be willing to concede.

"Retribution is a waste. It is no good and good never comes from it. Anyone not a child or slave to their feelings understands that, and understands that in a pivitol circumstance, passion should be separated from a well-informed judgment. To do otherwise is foolish. To do otherwise is warmongering.

Am I truly to think something other than that they've put our lives in danger for no good reason?

Mages want to free themselves from bad goverment, but why does any government exist at all? Because the passions of men will not conform to the dictates of reason and justice without constraint. I know the necessary constraints and will enforce them with my pen and plan.

You don't found new government, good government on retribution.

Those who claim to serve freedom but in reality serve death must be corrected. That is not self-righteous judgment, that is an act of caring. What good is there in deception? In deceiving yourself and others to a disastrous end? There is no gain.

People who listen when corrected will live, but those who will not admit that they are wrong are in danger.

That has never been truer."

There is a line beyond which the only option that does not constitute a betrayal is to fight. You call that inflexible, yet it is I who have evaluated your suggestions with an open mind, acknowledging merit where I found it, and you who has not moved one tiny step from your confrontational position. Who is the inflexible one here?

"You have not moved one step from "total autonomy or failure", and Warden, you will fail to deliver that future.

People who make promises they don't keep are like clouds and wind that bring no rain.

I do not tell mages what they desire to hear, but what they must hear to prosper. Unlike vengeance served, I give bitter medicine that heals in the end. Unlike an ideal never to be reached, I offer what can be realized."

I said you dug the hole in which you fell yourself. This is the reality of it: Because of what you said, the people in the story I told you and many others like them would never trust your leadership now, no matter how reasonable your suggestions look on paper. Their story is a shard of our people's many-faceted truth, and if you do not respect it, it is you who will be left by the wayside.

"I do not care that the minority which you sympathize abhor my every word and foam at the mouth over them in anger. All that matters is that those in power see wisdom, and Warden, fools never hold power."

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 13 janvier 2014 - 01:16 .

[duckley]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

 Knight-Commander,

We tracked him to a small hamlet near the border of Nevarra. The apostate had taken refuge within the local inn, hiding amongst the locals as a simple traveler. Hiding his true nature from the locals may have been easy, but for my men and I, equiped with his phylactery, it was only a question of time, before we found him. We cornered him in the inn, and quickly incapacitated him. He offered no resistance. Just as we were about to clasp him in irons and march him off to the fortress, the unimaginable happened. Fire started raining from the skies and demons walked the earth freely! At first we thought the mage had turned maleficar and I raised my sword to execute him, but the terror of the townsfolk were reflected on him. He was not the cause for this. I ordered my men to protect the hamlet, and leave the mage for another day. I know you will disapprove Knight-Commander, and so be it. But I refuse to let the commoners of Thedas suffer just so that we can continue this pointless conflict. My duty is to protect Thedas from magical threats, and the threat we faced here was the demons, not the apostate.

The demons were many, and some I could not even recognize from my trainning, but nevertheless my men and I prepared to sell our lives dearly, so that as many townspeople could be saved as possible. The demon fell upon us like a wolves amongst lambs. They tore us to pieces, and even our special talents were of little use to beings of such power. Just when things seemed hopeless, with more than half my men dead or worse, we recieved help from an unexpected ally. I had expected the apostate to take the oppertunity to escape his pursuers, but it would seem he shared my obligation to protect Thedas. The apostate had remained behind to help and guide the townspeople to safety, and had now returned to help us, his worn enemies. With his talents in tandem with what remained of ours, we were able to push the demons back. At the end of the battle most of the hamlet's population had been saved, though the hamlet itself was burned to the ground. My men and I were to exhausted to apprehend the apostate, and he escaped us again. It would also appear that his phylactery was somehow destroyed in the battle. Too bad, I suppose we will have to cease our pursuit of him now.  My men and I will now focus on keeping Thedas safe from actual magical threats, and that is not done by caging the best of us.

Knight-Commander I implore you to reprioritize all available men to combat this new threat, instead of continuing this pointless conflict. Mages and Templars will have to work together until this crisis is averted. What comes after will remain to be seen.

Ser Ian Leoncoeur

Nice!

[Inprea]

Youth4Ever wrote...

Retribution belongs to no man. Justice, certainly, but not retribution. It belongs to the Maker.

You must put the desire for vengeance, and the hatred that sparked it, out of your head and out of your soul, crush it and toss it in a lake because it will do you no good in the end.

Retribution does not court me for it knows it wastes its efforts. I cannot work for peace and hide hatred in any corner of my heart.

That you have yet to understand that says you are not commited to compromise."

How does that work for a maker who by the Chantry's own beliefs has abandoned the world until the chant of light has spread to all corners of the world justifying an expansionist mind set? I'm not even sure there is a part of the chanty that says someone shouldn't seek revenge. If there is I'd like to see a codex entry that notes it

Youth4Ever wrote...
"And where I there, I would have told her that she has every right to be angry and every right to justice-- but not vengeance and never does anyone else. That templar should be punished-- put to death-- for what he did, but rage consumes her and not him.

It a perversion of a fair feeling and thus a feeling to be rejected and not one to be exercised.

It a spiritual diease that afflicts both mage and mundane and never does them any good.

Justice is honey to the soul-- it is enough, and if it was not had in the old system, solace is its more perfect inclusion in the coming system.

I do not write that to condemn your words to her that night or to shame you but to impart what wisdom I have in hope it will aid the next troubled mage you encounter."

That's a nice attempt to sound sage like but putting the rapist to death isn't justice. Keep in mind that the templars are a military order with a chain of command. It's the responsibility of the higher ups to keep an eye on their subordinates. It's also the responsibility of all the templars to protect their charges. What about the Knight Commander that failed to notice this templars behavior or his fellow templars who should have protected the mage from such abuse? The failing in such a system is far more then that of one person. After all because one mage decided to swim for it all the local circle mages may lose a privilege.

So what about the responsibility the local templars carry for failing to protect their charge? Why price should be exacted upon them?

Justice doesn't end with punishing the criminal though. Restitution must also be paid to the victim. I would even go so far as to say that making restorations to the victim is more important then punishing the criminal. So many people focus so much on the criminal that they forget about restoring the victim. Yet even after the criminal has been burned at the stake there is still a human left broken and in need of minding. What will the order do to make amends to the mage for failing to protect her and for what one of its members did to her? Keep in mind the templars already promised protection and now she knows that's a lie.

Modifié par Inprea, 04 novembre 2013 - 02:31 .

[lil yonce]

@Inprea; I'll comment, your response sounds very meta and not in character. And my character's response is to Ieldra's saying rage and retribution are things mages want but can't have-- and retribution has nothing to do with making amends to a victim so my character does not address that.

As for the "retribution is the Maker's", Sebastian's conflict with Grand Cleric Elthina addresses his motive, his desire, she believes, for vengeance, "Sebastian, stop this madness. The Chantry cannot condone revenge, Sebastian." From that, I don't believe the Chant of Light condones individuals pursuing revenge. And the Maker appears, in part, to be based on the Judeo-Christian god and only He had right to vengeance, and so I've drawn that conclusion that retribution belongs to the Maker alone. Remember, this is a fan-made in-character writing and thus not meant to be taken as absolute gospel of the DA universe.

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 04 novembre 2013 - 03:38 .

[Inprea]

Youth4Ever wrote...

@Inprea; I'll comment, your response sounds very meta and not in character. And my character's response is to Ieldra's saying rage and retribution are things mages want but can't have-- and retribution has nothing to do with making amends to a victim so my character does not address that.

As for the "retribution is the Maker's", Sebastian's conflict with Grand Cleric Elthina addresses his motive, his desire, she believes, for vengeance, "Sebastian, stop this madness. The Chantry cannot condone revenge, Sebastian" From that, I don't believe the Chant of Light condones individuals pursuing revenge. And the Maker appears, in part, to be based on the Judeo-Christian god and only He had right to vengeance, and so I've drawn that conclusion that retribution belongs to the Maker alone. Remember, this is a fan-made in-character writing and thus not meant to be taken as absolute gospel of the DA universe.

Indeed it was meta. Though I don't believe I used any information that a mage Warden wouldn't have known. However, your character didn't just address rage and retribution. Your character also made mention of justice and executing the offending templar but did nothing to mention compensating the wronged mage which is part of justice and the responsibility of the templars as a whole. By only mentioning the offend templar it seems your character is trying to dump all the responsibility on one person and forget the victim's rights. As I mentioned justice doesn't stop at punishing the criminal.

For me your character came across as telling the mages to suffer in silence and trust in a god they may not even believe in to right the wrongs against them. Yet supposedly it was this god that cursed them. It is also mentioned that the maker turned his back in the world when his bride was burned.

If we were more in character well. My mages are always very hugging spirit healer wants to be everyone's protector types. However, if she'd had the choice she'd using crushing prisoner to squeeze the life from Gregor for locking the mages in the tower after failing to protect them. Failure comes with a price and when you lock people away in a tower, promise them protection and then in your failing lock them in with the beasts you should have protected them from and plan their murder the price should be steep.

Good point with Sebastian by the way. I wasn't thinking of that seen. Yet that also shows that she's willing to just let the murderers go. With such a mentality how could one expect the Chantry to punish a templar for wrong doing?

Modifié par Inprea, 04 novembre 2013 - 03:40 .

[Star fury]

Ieldra2 wrote...

BTW:
Can anyone suggest a synonym for "political officer" appropriate for in-world documents and roleplaying?

Inquisitor. 

[Ieldra]

Star fury wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

BTW:
Can anyone suggest a synonym for "political officer" appropriate for in-world documents and roleplaying?

Inquisitor. 

Why didn't I think of that? Perfect.

[Ieldra]

@Youth4Ever:
It may be some time before Eorlin can answer. Don't know how much time I have this week to write long posts.

[dragonflight288]

Ser Ian Leoncoeur,

The actions of you and your men have reached my ears of how you fought off a large demonic invasion of a small hamlet. You have my congratulations for your achievement and my sympathies for the men you lost.

It's unfortunate, but the demons coming into our world is beyond the one area. It's engulfed nearly all of Thedas, and it affects not just templars and mages, but all the nations and other independent organizations such as the Grey Wardens.

Your actions have proven you to be a man of worth, and should you wish it, I would be honored to invite you to join our ranks as a Grey Warden. Should you feel your duties keep you from joining, that it's a higher priority to face the demons rather than the darkspawn, I will not argue. For all life now faces two grave threats, from above and from beneath. With the demons on the surface and the darkspawn beneath it, it can be said all life is between a rock and a hardplace.

Should you turn down my offer, I at least give another one. I can offer a contingent of Wardens, including mages to help you out, on the promise that you leave our mages alone. They have their duties, just as you have yours. I have heard rumors of an Inquisition rising to battle these demonic threats, I'm sending these wardens to them with an offer of peace and an alliance, so I figured they may as well continue helping you as a show of good faith.

Respectfully yours,

Daylen Amell, Acting Commander of the Grey of Ferelden.

[Hellion Rex]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

 Knight-Commander,

We tracked him to a small hamlet near the border of Nevarra. The apostate had taken refuge within the local inn, hiding amongst the locals as a simple traveler. Hiding his true nature from the locals may have been easy, but for my men and I, equiped with his phylactery, it was only a question of time, before we found him. We cornered him in the inn, and quickly incapacitated him. He offered no resistance. Just as we were about to clasp him in irons and march him off to the fortress, the unimaginable happened. Fire started raining from the skies and demons walked the earth freely! At first we thought the mage had turned maleficar and I raised my sword to execute him, but the terror of the townsfolk were reflected on him. He was not the cause for this. I ordered my men to protect the hamlet, and leave the mage for another day. I know you will disapprove Knight-Commander, and so be it. But I refuse to let the commoners of Thedas suffer just so that we can continue this pointless conflict. My duty is to protect Thedas from magical threats, and the threat we faced here was the demons, not the apostate.

The demons were many, and some I could not even recognize from my trainning, but nevertheless my men and I prepared to sell our lives dearly, so that as many townspeople could be saved as possible. The demon fell upon us like a wolves amongst lambs. They tore us to pieces, and even our special talents were of little use to beings of such power. Just when things seemed hopeless, with more than half my men dead or worse, we recieved help from an unexpected ally. I had expected the apostate to take the oppertunity to escape his pursuers, but it would seem he shared my obligation to protect Thedas. The apostate had remained behind to help and guide the townspeople to safety, and had now returned to help us, his worn enemies. With his talents in tandem with what remained of ours, we were able to push the demons back. At the end of the battle most of the hamlet's population had been saved, though the hamlet itself was burned to the ground. My men and I were to exhausted to apprehend the apostate, and he escaped us again. It would also appear that his phylactery was somehow destroyed in the battle. Too bad, I suppose we will have to cease our pursuit of him now.  My men and I will now focus on keeping Thedas safe from actual magical threats, and that is not done by caging the best of us.

Knight-Commander I implore you to reprioritize all available men to combat this new threat, instead of continuing this pointless conflict. Mages and Templars will have to work together until this crisis is averted. What comes after will remain to be seen.

Ser Ian Leoncoeur

Very well written, Ser Ian. 

[lil yonce]

Inprea wrote...Indeed it was meta. Though I don't believe I used any information that a mage Warden wouldn't have known. However, your character didn't just address rage and retribution. Your character also made mention of justice and executing the offending templar but did nothing to mention compensating the wronged mage which is part of justice and the responsibility of the templars as a whole. By only mentioning the offend templar it seems your character is trying to dump all the responsibility on one person and forget the victim's rights. As I mentioned justice doesn't stop at punishing the criminal.

Well, there is no formal justice system right now. I mean, if she knew what templar did it, Kamilah may contact her husband who is a templar and if there was any way during the rebellion he could find this man and have him executed to do so, but is likely impossible. And if this were before the war, she she knew about this case, she would certainly attend to the Circle and templar order making amends to this girl, but as it is now, she can't help this girl, personally, she's not there, and in the middle of a war that, in part, revolves around the issue of justice, there is little anyone can do to help her. And the issue is obviously larger than that girl, and as Eorlin uses it to make a larger point, she's using it to make a larger point. Rage=unhealthy. Vengeance=bad. Anger=healthy. Justice=good. And Eorlin doesn't discuss making any sort of amends to the victim either, so I don't believe it was part of their debate, and thus didn't include it. I think its perfectly legitimate to believe that amends to the victim is part of justice, but they weren't having a larger discussion on what justice is wholly, Kamilah was using it more as a quick reference tool to condemn retribution.

For me your character came across as telling the mages to suffer in silence and trust in a god they may not even believe in to right the wrongs against them. Yet supposedly it was this god that cursed them. It is also mentioned that the maker turned his back in the world when his bride was burned.

The Chant of Light never calls magic a curse. It calls it a gift. And Kamilah's value system is based, not completely on, but in large part, around the Chant of Light. Not Chantry teaching, but the Chant of Light, to be clear, and I would believe she has her own reading of it. We only know that the Chantry teaches that the Maker turned his back on mankind. We don't know what the Chant of Light says in that regard. If your value system has no similarity to hers at all, there is nothing more I can say. You have a fudamental disagreement that cannot be resolved. And what she's saying to Eorlin is to fight for the inclusion of perfect justice in the world, and not live for vengeance-- that's the message in the example. She's not telling a rape victim to suffer in silence. She says the girl has every right to be angry, and every right to justice, and every right to fight (in legitimate ways is Kamilah's principle) for it.

If we were more in character well. My mages are always very hugging spirit healer wants to be everyone's protector types. However, if she'd had the choice she'd using crushing prisoner to squeeze the life from Gregor for locking the mages in the tower after failing to protect them. Failure comes with a price and when you lock people away in a tower, promise them protection and then in your failing lock them in with the beasts you should have protected them from and plan their murder the price should be steep.

And Kamilah would call that vengeance and condemn it. If there is a failure in the system, it must be corrected. She wouldn't simply kill everyone who had been part of it but didn't actually commit a crime. To her, some of the Circles failures can be placed on the mages-- historical and current Loyalists and Aequitarians (the alliance that has forever dominated the College of Enchanters) that had all the passiveness of sheep to accept without a fight detrimental outgrowths of power and abuses of the system. She would say that, yes, templars are supposed to protect mages as part of their job, the reality is that power grows by nature and must be restrained-- that no one in the Circle restrained it says the mages failed in reality to make the Circle work for them and future mages. She wouldn't say all Loyalists and Aequitarians need to die because they too failed the Circle for about a thousand years.

Good point with Sebastian by the way. I wasn't thinking of that seen. Yet that also shows that she's willing to just let the murderers go. With such a mentality how could one expect the Chantry to punish a templar for wrong doing?

I honestly didn't remember it either until you brought the whole issue up. It just seemed to me at the time of writing Kamilah's response that Andrastianism as a religion of fairness, order, peace etc. wouldn't condone revenge. Glad I was able to find that video to back it up.

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 04 novembre 2013 - 04:47 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Ser Ian Leoncoeur,

The actions of you and your men have reached my ears of how you fought off a large demonic invasion of a small hamlet. You have my congratulations for your achievement and my sympathies for the men you lost.

It's unfortunate, but the demons coming into our world is beyond the one area. It's engulfed nearly all of Thedas, and it affects not just templars and mages, but all the nations and other independent organizations such as the Grey Wardens.

Your actions have proven you to be a man of worth, and should you wish it, I would be honored to invite you to join our ranks as a Grey Warden. Should you feel your duties keep you from joining, that it's a higher priority to face the demons rather than the darkspawn, I will not argue. For all life now faces two grave threats, from above and from beneath. With the demons on the surface and the darkspawn beneath it, it can be said all life is between a rock and a hardplace.

Should you turn down my offer, I at least give another one. I can offer a contingent of Wardens, including mages to help you out, on the promise that you leave our mages alone. They have their duties, just as you have yours. I have heard rumors of an Inquisition rising to battle these demonic threats, I'm sending these wardens to them with an offer of peace and an alliance, so I figured they may as well continue helping you as a show of good faith.

Respectfully yours,

Daylen Amell, Acting Commander of the Grey of Ferelden.

Warden-Commander of the Grey

I must respectfully decline your first offer, and the second is not mine to accept.
Do not mistake my refusal as ingratitude, but you must understand my life belongs to the Templars. It is a decision made for me long ago, but it is one I embrace. I have found my place in the world, just as you have found yours. I am dedicated to protect Thedas from magical threats. ALL magical threats. Be they maleficar or demons.
I know of your Order's view on Blood Magic and therefore cannot guarentee your men's safety, despite the pressing dangers. Old hatreds run deep as you must well know yourself. While I do not condone your men's practice of it, I will not add to your problems by having my men hunt you. But I cannot actively work with Maleficars, or I will be called to the Spire for trial.
But if the situation is as dire as you say, then know you have an ally in me. Even if it must be from the shadows.

Ser Ian Leoncoeur

The letter's seal was found broken on delivery.

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 04 novembre 2013 - 11:42 .

[Lazy Jer]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
...I know of your Order's view on Blood Magic and therefore cannot guarentee your men's safety...

Is that a reference to the Joining?  If so it's a closely guarded secret, Grey Warden recruits don't even know about it until it's time to actually go through it.

Modifié par Lazy Jer, 05 novembre 2013 - 04:58 .

[Ieldra]

Lazy Jer wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
...I know of your Order's view on Blood Magic and therefore cannot guarentee your men's safety...

Is that a reference to the Joining?  If so it's a closely guarded secret, Grey Warden recruits don't even know about it until it's time to actually go through it.

No, it's a reference to the fact that the Wardens have no rule or law against blood magic.

[Lazy Jer]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Lazy Jer wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
...I know of your Order's view on Blood Magic and therefore cannot guarentee your men's safety...

Is that a reference to the Joining?  If so it's a closely guarded secret, Grey Warden recruits don't even know about it until it's time to actually go through it.

No, it's a reference to the fact that the Wardens have no rule or law against blood magic.

Oh, okay.

[Ieldra]

I'm bringing this up again since one of the major participants in this thread has recently had a change of mind, and I'm curious if and how that is reflected in his rp character's stance.

(In in-world terms, Eorlin Amell would love to have an ally who can deal with those pesky economic matters he recognizes as important but has neither the skills nor the inclination to deal with)

[Lulupab]

Blame whoever you like, the only sane Templar we know in DA franchise has become an abomination and supports mages. From a neutral viewpoint Templars seem more evil. Fanatics and zealots are much more dangerous than some people who openly practice evil, at least we know who they are and their motives.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Blame whoever you like, the only sane Templar we know in DA franchise has become an abomination and supports mages. From a neutral viewpoint Templars seem more evil. Fanatics and zealots are much more dangerous than some people who openly practice evil, at least we know who they are and their motives.

Evil maybe, but Lawful Evil. Regardless of other people's opinions, they think they are doing what is required and best for the safety of both the mages and the outside world. Meredith's line in The Last Straw, especially with her sorrow-filled tone, really shows this: 

 

Orsino: "You would cast us all as villains, but that is not so!"

 

Meredith: "I know. And it breaks my heart to do it, but we must be vigilant. If you cannot tell me another way, do not brand me a tyrant!"

[Ieldra]

@Lulupab, Hanako:
Not to be too strict about it, but this thread has developed to be more about our characters' viewpoints of the mage/templar conflict rather than ours. How different those can be even between two mages, you can see in the debate between Eorlin Amell and Kamilah Blackreach (I think that was the surname) on some of the previous pages. Then add Magister Nero whose stance I'm rather convinced does not reflect the opinion of the one who's writing him, and we have a pretty diverse bunch.

Of in game NPCs, consider the difference between Malcolm Hawke and Anders. The former used magic to the best of his abilities, but he saw it as a curse and didn't wish his children to inherit it. Anders didn't give this any consideration but was only concerned with the negative effects of the Circles.