1656 réponses à ce sujet

[BlueMagitek]

I would like a prominent Isolationist Mage character. I'm rather tired of the Libertarians and Aequitarians and the one or two Loyalists we've seen.

[Xilizhra]

Fenris (and Lambert) are considred biased even though they ACTUALLY lived in Tevinter and experienced it first hand yet Anders opinion is considered gospel since he lived in a circle.

Yes, we have two people assessing the Circle. One was raised in it and was on the wrong side of its overlords, one was not. Whose opinion am I more likely to trust? Now, I might trust Fenris more than Anders about matters relating to Tevinter, depending on circumstances.

A circle I might add that even though he left multiple times, the worst that Anders will tell happen to him is that he got put in solitary confinement...Hell, Anders doesn't even mention getting beat/roughed up for his escape attempts and you know he would if he actually suffered abuse.

That's why he wasn't a revolutionary until Justice made him understand that selfishness wouldn't help anything.

I would like a prominent Isolationist Mage character. I'm rather tired of the Libertarians and Aequitarians and the one or two Loyalists we've seen.

Niall.

[BlueMagitek]

Niall claimed to sympathize with the Isolationists, if I recall correctly. Regardless, we've had an Aequitarian (Wynne), a Resolutionist/Libertarian (Anders).

I think the closest we've had to an Isolationist is Finn.

[MisterJB]

Filament wrote...

And there are countless applications of power outside of "necessary warfare" that aren't abusive and would be a waste to throw away just because it scares the mundanes that they can't do it too.

Magic can be use for good, certainly but the facts are that ever since the dawn of humanity, magic has been the primary cause of
conflict, social division, slavery, destruction and death in Thedas.
The mages of Tevinter who will enslave any one who can't defend himself; the Chantry who will imprision mages for life out of fear; the mobs who will lynch any mage they can get their hands on; the mage terrorists; the unexperienced magelings setting their houses on fire with a sneeze or being possessed and killing dozens of people before being killed, the destruction of Arlathan, the Darkspawn, the Qunari chaining their mages for life.

Regardless of the potential benefic applications of a certain substance, after so many examples of where said substance produced negative results, perhaps it's time to accept this experiment was a failure and try a different route. Modern technology can do anything magic in Thedas can, anyway.

Modifié par MisterJB, 23 juin 2013 - 08:55 .

[Xilizhra]

conflict, social division, slavery, destruction and death in Thedas.

Not even slightly. Consider how much of all of that has happened even without magic, in DAO alone.

Regardless of the potential benefic applications of a certain substance, after so many examples of where said substance produced negative results, perhaps it's time to accept this experiment was a failure and try a different route. Modern technology can do anything magic in Thedas can, anyway.

Imagine how much farther magic might go with scientific research applied to it. Also, you can't do things like instantly bring people back from the brink of death, or call energy out of nowhere, or numerous other things.

[MisterJB]

Filament wrote...

Half of those examples are "we have to get rid of magic because look at how much it makes me abuse them!" lol, or you could stop doing that.

The other half are examples of mages abusing power for which the appropriate response would be a thoughtful system of governance that protects mage rights and freedoms to the extent it is able while keeping mundanes from abuse as well. Not an overreaction like the templars and certainly not an overreaction like killing all mages/eradicating magic.

Just throwing out magic because it's too hard to deal with is a very regressive way of dealing with the problem. If not magic the people of Thedas will just turn to other divisive qualities to persecute each other over, like they do in our world.

Those are all nice suggestions but you are not even presenting any way of accomplishing them. Just saying "mages should not abuse their power" does nothing to stop the fact that human greed and selfishness will, inevitably, lead to mages abusing their power. And the same applies to non-mages reacting in ways pro-mages consider abusive to protect themselves.

Sometimes, a problem just really has no realistic solution and in those cases, the best thing to do is just getting rid of it. While it's true that destroying magic does not, by any means, turn Thedas into an utopia, that is irrelevant.
What other divisive qualities the people use afterwards to justify violence has no relevance over the fact magic has simply brought much more suffering to Thedas than it did joy and that thus, it's better to just get rid of it if at all possible.

[Xilizhra]

MisterJB wrote...

Filament wrote...

Half of those examples are "we have to get rid of magic because look at how much it makes me abuse them!" lol, or you could stop doing that.

The other half are examples of mages abusing power for which the appropriate response would be a thoughtful system of governance that protects mage rights and freedoms to the extent it is able while keeping mundanes from abuse as well. Not an overreaction like the templars and certainly not an overreaction like killing all mages/eradicating magic.

Just throwing out magic because it's too hard to deal with is a very regressive way of dealing with the problem. If not magic the people of Thedas will just turn to other divisive qualities to persecute each other over, like they do in our world.

Those are all nice suggestions but you are not even presenting any way of accomplishing them. Just saying "mages should not abuse their power" does nothing to stop the fact that human greed and selfishness will, inevitably, lead to mages abusing their power. And the same applies to non-mages reacting in ways pro-mages consider abusive to protect themselves.

Sometimes, a problem just really has no realistic solution and in those cases, the best thing to do is just getting rid of it. While it's true that destroying magic does not, by any means, turn Thedas into an utopia, that is irrelevant.
What other divisive qualities the people use afterwards to justify violence has no relevance over the fact magic has simply brought much more suffering to Thedas than it did joy and that thus, it's better to just get rid of it if at all possible.

The other way to solve this, of course, is to find a way to imbue nonmages with magic if they wish to learn to be mages, thus removing the barrier of birth.

[MisterJB]

That is no solution and if you wish to know why, I recommend you play the "Deus Ex" series. Just replace agumentations with magic.

It would be better than random cirs****ances determining who possesses this power but not by much. Besides, destroying magic would greatly diminish, if not outright elliminate, the threat demons pose therefore, it would be a much more effective solution.

[Xilizhra]

MisterJB wrote...

That is no solution and if you wish to know why, I recommend you play the "Deus Ex" series. Just replace agumentations with magic.

It would be better than random cirs****ances determining who possesses this power but not by much. Besides, destroying magic would greatly diminish, if not outright elliminate, the threat demons pose therefore, it would be a much more effective solution.

I absolutely refuse to destroy magic. There's too much potential, too many things to explore in the Fade, too many unknown side effects if they were all removed. We should never accept lowered universal potential out of simple fear.

[MisterJB]

It would not lower anything; technology is just as useful and much safer since we don't have people being born with nukes attached to their backs. Magic has been given 2000 years and it keeps doing nothing but harm.
The only thing lowered would be the Magisters which counts as a plus.

Modifié par MisterJB, 23 juin 2013 - 09:36 .

[Xilizhra]

MisterJB wrote...

It would not lower anything; technology is just as useful and much safer since we don't have people being born with nukes attached to their backs. Magic has been given 2000 years and it keeps doing nothing but harm.
The only thing lowered would be the Magisters which counts as a plus.

It also completely ignores the Fade and anything that might be able to be done with it; it's deliberate destruction of knowledge and advancement, and I will never countenance this. Knowledge and power should be preserved, and I'll stop anyone who tries to destroy them.

[BlueMagitek]

And then Xil opened a rift in the Warp and got everyone killed. </40k Sorcery>

[Xilizhra]

BlueMagitek wrote...

And then Xil opened a rift in the Warp and got everyone killed. </40k Sorcery>

Without psykers, humanity would be doomed many times over.

[MisterJB]

Of course you would be against the removal of the privileges of mages. Thankfully, I couldn't care less about your opinion.

[Xilizhra]

MisterJB wrote...

Of course you would be against the removal of the privileges of mages. Thankfully, I couldn't care less about your opinion.

And thankfully, your scenario has no chance of ever making it into Dragon Age, as magic is a major draw of the setting.

[BlueMagitek]

Xilizhra wrote...
Without psykers, humanity would be doomed many times over.

Actually the Golden Throne was ruined by Magnus, a Sorceror.  This required the Emperor to sit upon it at all times otherewise the Warp would break on Terra.  So Psykers are required due to something sorcery caused.

Much like Darkspawn.

[Xilizhra]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
Without psykers, humanity would be doomed many times over.

Actually the Golden Throne was ruined by Magnus, a Sorceror.  This required the Emperor to sit upon it at all times otherewise the Warp would break on Terra.  So Psykers are required due to something sorcery caused.

Much like Darkspawn.

With the Emperor himself being the most powerful psyker who ever lived.

[BlueMagitek]

Xilizhra wrote...

With the Emperor himself being the most powerful psyker who ever lived.

He is, yes.  One who was in complete control of his powers until sorcery ruined everything.

And now he is on his way to becoming the Chaos god of Zealotry.  Wonderful.

[BlueMagitek]

Filament wrote...

Humanity in the 40k universe was already practically doomed with the god emperor on the throne. Living under that absurd degree of subjugation isn't much to live for (if we want to take the realm seriously as opposed to just badazz bro fantasy).

He only had to assume the throne when Magnus contacted him via sorcery, which apparently broke it while he was working on it.

This is after sorcery was banned.

[MisterJB]

Filament wrote...
How much effort do you expect me to put into my argument to reciprocate something as simple minded as "get rid of it"? If you're expecting a treatise on the topic I'm afraid I can't provide one, but basically I'd like to see the system as it is, with 20% less barbarism and 20% more freedumz.

Some effort would be nice. If I give reasons as to why magic causes more harm than good, reasons why you believe it not to be so would be a start.
Just saying "These things shouldn't happen" doesn't change the fact these things will continue to happen due to human nature.

Or I could just say make magic ubiquitous too. That seems to be hinted as the actual direction DA is headed.

Maybe, maybe not. There are some corporate reasons why I don't think it's likely.
Regardless, as I said, removing magic would be more effective since it would also reduce or elliminate the threat of demons.

This is where I just  fundamentally disagree with practically all of you pro-templar folks about human nature. We are not inescapably, irrationally selfish. Goodness can be cultivated.

Perhaps, under certain circunstances. The ability to do whatever you want to other people with something as easy as a cut on the wrist does not predisposes towards goodness, however.

[In Exile]

Filament wrote...
This is where I just  fundamentally disagree with practically all of you pro-templar folks about human nature. We are not inescapably, irrationally selfish. Goodness can be cultivated.

It's funny you say that, because I'm quite pro-mage and yet see this as the basic aspect of human nature. But my view is that just because we can all be (and usually and become) bad people and create bad institutions, all of this talk of social engineering is nuts anyway. 

There's oppression, and we should fix it. There'll be oppression in the future, and we should try to fix that. Expecting that anything will be a magic utopia pill is just what leads to people being lined up against the wall in the Revolution. 

[MisterJB]

BlueMagitek wrote...
And now he is on his way to becoming the Chaos god of Zealotry.  Wonderful.

HERESY!