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Of Dreams and Nightmares - A Mage Manifesto


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#176
lil yonce

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Ieldra2 wrote...

Youth4Ever wrote...
Interesting read OP. Nice in-character piece. I would like a DA:I Fan Creations forum or thread too. And I have a mage to counter your Amell. Kamilah Trufant and The Lucrosian's Proposal.

Very interesting. And a nice and mostly realistic character - one I wouldn't want to meet on the debating floor. I don't actually see a counter as much as an alternative path to ends which aren't that dissimilar - working within the system until it's changed beyond recognition, an approach that seems believable for a Nevarran. Eorlin does not think such an approach would work elsewhere, but then he's not a politician. The only big issue I'd have is with the ready acceptance of Tranquility. 

I welcome any criticism you have to offer. Please leave a comment. I believe the counter is in her view of the Circle. She views them as absolutely necessary for a variety of reasons, and certainly critical in the establishment of a real and lasting independence-- and that to achieve that they must work with the Chantry and templars. She believes confrontation should be avoided because the Magi cannot support themselves at this point in time and because the templar reaction will result in the death many mages. She would flaout find it impractical and state the mages at Andoral's Reach must return to the Circles and state that caring more for a rose colored ideal than the lives to be sacrificed for it is exactly why the Libertarian fraternity as a whole is dangerous and cannot be fully supported in their current endeavor.

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 24 juin 2013 - 03:35 .


#177
Xilizhra

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In Exile wrote...

Filament wrote...
This is where I just  fundamentally disagree with practically all of you pro-templar folks about human nature. We are not inescapably, irrationally selfish. Goodness can be cultivated.


It's funny you say that, because I'm quite pro-mage and yet see this as the basic aspect of human nature. But my view is that just because we can all be (and usually and become) bad people and create bad institutions, all of this talk of social engineering is nuts anyway. 

There's oppression, and we should fix it. There'll be oppression in the future, and we should try to fix that. Expecting that anything will be a magic utopia pill is just what leads to people being lined up against the wall in the Revolution. 

Indeed, especially any plan to destroy magic altogether. It should never be countenanced. I don't expect my plan to lead to utopia, but we can wipe out the current oppressors and make it harder for new ones to come to power.

#178
KainD

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Xilizhra wrote...

I don't expect my plan to lead to utopia, but we can wipe out the current oppressors and make it harder for new ones to come to power.


What is your plan? 

#179
BlueMagitek

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MisterJB wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...
And now he is on his way to becoming the Chaos god of Zealotry.  Wonderful.

HERESY!


The Golden Throne is breaking down.  Either the Emperor is going to die and a new Chaos God is created, or he'll be miraculously restored and likely break the Imperium himself after seeing what has happened to it.

#180
In Exile

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Xilizhra wrote...
Indeed, especially any plan to destroy magic altogether. It should never be countenanced. I don't expect my plan to lead to utopia, but we can wipe out the current oppressors and make it harder for new ones to come to power.


I think we can save the mages from being opressed. Whether that leads to other people being oppressed, frankly, that's a different social challenge. You can't have one social movement fix everything. It's impossible, largely because everything can't be fixed. 

And sometimes an uprising like this doesn't fix anything and leads to even worse suffering - but that doesn't change the fact that the oppressed victims had to rise up. 

#181
Xilizhra

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What is your plan?

An independent Circle system with secular guards and a less prison-like life; the point of being there is to protect them from demons first and foremost. The secrets of templar training will be open so that national governments can train their own templars as guards, but they won't have jurisdiction over mages unless the mages commit crimes against their citizenry.

I think we can save the mages from being opressed. Whether that leads to other people being oppressed, frankly, that's a different social challenge. You can't have one social movement fix everything. It's impossible, largely because everything can't be fixed.

Indeed. I'm trying to focus on one thing at a time.

#182
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MisterJB wrote...

Some effort would be nice. If I give reasons as to why magic causes more harm than good, reasons why you believe it not to be so would be a start.
Just saying "These things shouldn't happen" doesn't change the fact these things will continue to happen due to human nature.

First, mages have been institutionally disallowed from doing good except in very specifically sanctioned circumstances for the past thousand years or so, so that's kind of a stacked question.

If you want me to describe the kind of changes I'd like to see in Thedas with regard to mages as opposed to just getting rid of magic, I'd say--

-get rid of tranquility
-change how the harrowing works, prepare mages better, help them if necessary, don't throw them to the wolves (the Dalish method of Fade walking evidently allows whole parties to enter the Fade together)
-allow mages to leave 'boarding school' after they prove competent under supervision of local Chantry authority (I'm against Chantry authority ideally, but it's the most ubiquitous institution at the moment to be able to handle that)
-set up task forces and compel mages to aid in dealing with blood mage and abomination threats
-make various aforementioned abuses of power illegal and monitored with said supervision

Half baked and not sure about the funding of it, perhaps. But a much better direction to expand on and improve than just throwing up our hands and giving up.

Perhaps, under certain circunstances. The ability to do whatever you want to other people with something as easy as a cut on the wrist does not predisposes towards goodness, however.

It's an infantile stage of psychological development where all that matters is what you can get away with. Ethics come later.

Modifié par Filament, 23 juin 2013 - 10:21 .


#183
Bleachrude

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Xilizhra wrote...

What is your plan?

An independent Circle system with secular guards and a less prison-like life; the point of being there is to protect them from demons first and foremost. The secrets of templar training will be open so that national governments can train their own templars as guards, but they won't have jurisdiction over mages unless the mages commit crimes against their citizenry.


And this here proves why pro-mages live in a dreamworld. You're ALREADY starting to reat mages differently by stating that the governments have no jurisdiction over these independent enclaves on their own lands.

At least with the circle system, a governemtn knew that the Chantry was the final voice.

When the king of Neverra press-gang his citizenry for a war to take over Starkhaven, he will very well expect EVERY single Neverran to answer that call in his land.

Yet apparently mages are exempt?

If a mage commits a crime in an arldom, you better believe that the arl will expect to be judge, jury AND executioner since this is how he treats other citizen including lower ranked nobility.

EDIT: Tranquility
You guys do realize that with tranquility gone for non-harrowed mages that the answer to replace it would be executions right?

Even in Ferelden, stealing is considered grounds for execution (see Daveth and the farmer in Awakening).

Modifié par Bleachrude, 23 juin 2013 - 10:28 .


#184
Clover Rider

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Mage task forces?

Image IPB

Modifié par Some Geth, 23 juin 2013 - 10:28 .


#185
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Yes, exactly like that.

#186
KainD

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Xilizhra wrote...

An independent Circle system with secular guards and a less prison-like life; the point of being there is to protect them from demons first and foremost.


So who is going to be in charge of circles? First enchanter? Is this person going to answer to the king/queen? 
Kids still forced from families into the circles? 

Modifié par KainD, 23 juin 2013 - 10:33 .


#187
Clover Rider

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Filament wrote...

Yes, exactly like that.

Awesome.

Image IPB

#188
MisterJB

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Filament wrote...
First, mages have been institutionally disallowed from doing good except in very specifically sanctioned circumstances for the past thousand years or so, so that's kind of a stacked question.

These institutions are necessary to compel them to do good and prevent them from doing harm.

If you want me to describe the kind of changes I'd like to see in Thedas with regard to mages as opposed to just getting rid of magic, I'd say--

-get rid of tranquility
-change how the harrowing works, prepare mages better, help them if necessary, don't throw them to the wolves (the Dalish method of Fade walking evidently allows whole parties to enter the Fade together)
-allow mages to leave 'boarding school' after they prove competent under supervision of local Chantry authority (I'm against Chantry authority ideally, but it's the most ubiquitous institution at the moment to be able to handle that)
-set up task forces and compel mages to aid in dealing with blood mage and abomination threats
-make various aforementioned abuses of power illegal and monitored with said supervision

Half baked and not sure about the funding of it, perhaps. But a much better direction to expand on and improve than just throwing up our hands and giving up.

Why? These measures are destined to deal with the existence of magic. If it did not existe, there wouldn't be a need for them.
I can come up with ways this system is open to abuse. You say that mages should be allowed to leave a boarding school under supervision. Alright, the supervision should help disencourage him from abusing his powers. But if this mage is allowed to compete in the market, the use of his powers could lead to him becoming quite wealthy in which case he could use the money to bribe his supervisors. Or what if this mage becomes an Abomination? How many supervisors are we talking about ? Enough to stop him from ripping his city in half?

To clarify, I don't particularly disagree with all of your suggestions. Only with the suggestion that they are preferable to just ridding ourselves of magic alltogether.

It's an infantile stage of psychological development where all that matters is what you can get away with. Ethics come later.

We pretend to ethics because we fear reprisal. A mage would have many ways in which to avoid punishment.
And even if we assume that there are people who will stand by their ethics, what happens when these people are truly pushed against the wall. If the son of a mage becomes deathly ill, will this mage refuse to use the blood of his neighbor's family if that is what it takes?

#189
Xilizhra

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KainD wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

An independent Circle system with secular guards and a less prison-like life; the point of being there is to protect them from demons first and foremost.


So who is going to be in charge of circles? First enchanter? Is this person going to answer to the king/queen? 
Kids still forced from families into the circles? 

Grand Enchanter is at the top of the hierarchy. The issue of children... I'm building villages around the Circles themselves where the parents can move to be close to their children, or at least that's one idea. It might be possible to commission certain mages to be one-on-one mentors for mage children if the parents really wanted it that way.

#190
BlueMagitek

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So now the Kingdom is also giving up even more rights to international organizations who they apparently have no authority over?

#191
Xilizhra

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BlueMagitek wrote...

So now the Kingdom is also giving up even more rights to international organizations who they apparently have no authority over?

No different from the Chantry doing so.

#192
Herr Uhl

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Xilizhra wrote...

KainD wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

An independent Circle system with secular guards and a less prison-like life; the point of being there is to protect them from demons first and foremost.


So who is going to be in charge of circles? First enchanter? Is this person going to answer to the king/queen? 
Kids still forced from families into the circles? 

Grand Enchanter is at the top of the hierarchy. The issue of children... I'm building villages around the Circles themselves where the parents can move to be close to their children, or at least that's one idea. It might be possible to commission certain mages to be one-on-one mentors for mage children if the parents really wanted it that way.


Would the parents be guaranteed living expenses in the scenario of the villages? Would the villages be under circle jurisdiction?

#193
Xilizhra

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Herr Uhl wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

KainD wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

An independent Circle system with secular guards and a less prison-like life; the point of being there is to protect them from demons first and foremost.


So who is going to be in charge of circles? First enchanter? Is this person going to answer to the king/queen? 
Kids still forced from families into the circles? 

Grand Enchanter is at the top of the hierarchy. The issue of children... I'm building villages around the Circles themselves where the parents can move to be close to their children, or at least that's one idea. It might be possible to commission certain mages to be one-on-one mentors for mage children if the parents really wanted it that way.


Would the parents be guaranteed living expenses in the scenario of the villages? Would the villages be under circle jurisdiction?

Economics are not my specialty and the feasibility of that idea is better assessed by another; however, if possible, that would be my intention... at least initially, to get them on their feet and give them time to return to the economy on their own. Jurisdiction on that is an interesting gray area that would need to be hashed out in negotations.

#194
Bleachrude

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Xilizhra wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...

So now the Kingdom is also giving up even more rights to international organizations who they apparently have no authority over?

No different from the Chantry doing so.


Except that the chantry doesn't require any tithing from the kingdom and unless it's a blight and or the quanari, the kingdom can rest assure that mages will not be involved in their affairs.

What if Tevinter say for example sends a magister to visit and the nation of Starkhaven is in a cold war with Tevinter? What if it is a known slaver like in origins and in DA2?

#195
LobselVith8

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Bleachrude wrote...

re: Comparison of circle life to slavery.
Fenris doesn't actually consider it slavery and actually doesn't see the gallows as oppressive (and he was an actual slave).


Fenris doesn't say that it isn't slavery. Neither does Sebastian. Both characters simply condone the institution as a necessity. In fact, pro-mage Hawke can state that the Chantry controlled Circles are slavery, and Fenris will side with the Champion against Meredith.

Bleachrude wrote...

Anders (and his pro-mage supporters) tend to think that normal Thedosian life as the circle system WITH freedom (aka, don't have to worry about food, clothing, shelter or education).


Food, clothing, shelter, and even education (in some areas) were also given to real life slaves. And Anders isn't the only character to condemn the Chantry controlled Circles as slavery.

#196
BlueMagitek

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Xilizhra wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...

So now the Kingdom is also giving up even more rights to international organizations who they apparently have no authority over?

No different from the Chantry doing so.


The Chantry can be evicted from the kingdom, their members are allowed to be prosecuted, they do not have the right to tell the kingdom where cities can be built, they do not have any political influence than what they're either born to or what they gain from the masses.  Except, perhaps, for Orlais.

#197
Silfren

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MisterJB wrote...

We pretend to ethics because we fear reprisal. A mage would have many ways in which to avoid punishment.
And even if we assume that there are people who will stand by their ethics, what happens when these people are truly pushed against the wall. If the son of a mage becomes deathly ill, will this mage refuse to use the blood of his neighbor's family if that is what it takes?


Yes, it is actually possible, even likely, that many mages would NEVER consider using the blood of someone else to heal themselves or their children.  Especially in cases where the neighbor in question was someone the mage had spent much of their life around, but even without that, there are mages for whom the idea would never even occur to them.

I realize you can't wrap your head around the idea, but it is true regardless of your pessimistic insistence to the contrary: a great many people DO choose to live according to benign morals because they actually, truly, have no desire to bring harm to their fellow beings.

That you refuse to accept this, and only ever "concede" by claiming that people "pretend to ethics because they fear reprisal" is just you projecting. 

#198
Silfren

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LobselVith8 wrote...

Bleachrude wrote...

re: Comparison of circle life to slavery.
Fenris doesn't actually consider it slavery and actually doesn't see the gallows as oppressive (and he was an actual slave).


Fenris doesn't say that it isn't slavery. Neither does Sebastian. Both characters simply condone the institution as a necessity. In fact, pro-mage Hawke can state that the Chantry controlled Circles are slavery, and Fenris will side with the Champion against Meredith.

Bleachrude wrote...

Anders (and his pro-mage supporters) tend to think that normal Thedosian life as the circle system WITH freedom (aka, don't have to worry about food, clothing, shelter or education).


Food, clothing, shelter, and even education (in some areas) were also given to real life slaves. And Anders isn't the only character to condemn the Chantry controlled Circles as slavery.


I think a lot of people just forget that slavery has existed in various forms throughout history, and I expect that a lot of Americans can't see past the American model of slavery, in particular.  But yeah, food, clothing, shelter, and education are kind of irrelevant.  Hell, in some cultures, slaves even enjoyed certain (limited) rights and could bring charges against their owner.  It's not a question of quality of life, it's a question of OWNERSHIP. 

#199
Silfren

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MisterJB wrote...

I can come up with ways this system is open to abuse.


This, right here, is your issue.  You think that there has to be an absolutely perfect, 100% foolproof replacement for the current Circle system.

The fact is, there is NO SUCH THING.  ALL systems are open to abuse.  If that's our goal, to find a totally failproof method for preventing magical abuses now and forevermore, than yes, we might as well stop bothering.  Quite literally the only means of achieving what you're apparently asking for is to execute all mages everywhere, the moment their innate talent is discovered.

Oh, wait.  Nope, sorry, that won't work either, it'll just drive mages into hiding and the world will be full of Morrigans who now have complete and total justification to distrust pretty much all non-mages.

The Circle system itself isn't even foolproof.  Its very existence is what led to Uldred wanting to rebel, and what made it so easy for him to gain willing followers.  Yes, really. 

#200
IceHawk-181

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I like the intent of Filament's plan, though I think it needs some more specificity and to be based more properly in the context of Ferelden political and economic realities.

(This is a long one....)
 
Ostensibly, the Chantry is a religious organization that draws its extralegal authority from its initial incorporation under Emperor Kordillus Drakon, the founder of the Orlesian Empire, and apparently the acceptance of that incorporation by the Fereldens as customary law.
 
The issue here is that the Chantry operates in a difficult legal limbo in which it exerts authority over Ferelden citizens, assumedly at the assent of the King, the Landsmeet, or the individual nobles.
 
Considering the dearth of detail concerning politics in Thedas and the obvious analogous relationship of Ferelden to the Chantry and England to the Catholic Church, and the reality that the Chantry operates within individual territories of the Banns and exerts authority across Ferelden territorial lines I would assume the Chantry has some form of legal incorporation authorized by the King and the Landsmeet.
 
The problem is that the Chantry is a sovereign entity with a supra-national political hierarchy that is based in a foreign state and yet nonetheless operates a full-scale military force within the sovereign borders of Ferelden.
 
I would argue that the Circle system needs to be secularized, the Ferelden-citizens within the Circles brought under domestic legal controls, and the Chantry itself reduced to an actual religious organization within the domains of Ferelden.
 
First, the Landsmeet and the King would need to alter the terms of Chantry incorporation in such a manner that it reinforced Ferelden sovereign authority over its own citizenry. This would functionally suspend the extralegal authority the Chantry wields within the country. This includes the suspension of the Chantry's monopoly on the Lyrium Trade and its authority to use Templars as anything other than Chantry guards. Templar authority now extends only to the outer-walls of the Chantry itself.
 
Second, the Landsmeet and the King would need to pass a law that necessitates the mandatory training of all Magic-capable citizens. However, this training would not be that of religious instruction, but that of a secular academy system that would mirror Ferelden's own political traditions.
 
In order to ensure secular oversight, the rule of law, and proper instruction, there must be a meeting of representatives between the Throne, the Landsmeet, and the Mages. The Landsmeet can appoint a duly authorized representative and the Enchanters can similarly appoint a representative for their concerns.

The Circles of Magi would submit to domestic legal oversight that includes as established law:
1) The recognition of the necessity of mandatory training for all mages
2) The complete outlaw of Blood Magic in any and all forms.
3) The retention of Aeonar as a prison for criminal Mages.
4) Tranquility retained as a form of punishment if a Blood Mage is captured alive.
5) Abominations shall not be suffered to live; Death Penalty for all Abominations.
6) The formation of a Templar-force commanded by the Throne that will hunt criminal Mages.
7) The acceptance of secular oversight (inspectors, not guards) over all training facilities.
8) A formal system of education and graduation.
9) The retention of Phylacteries until an Apprentice Mage "graduates."
10) Continuous reports to a specialized committee that includes representatives of Throne and the local Bann.
 
In exchange the Mages would receive the authority to administer training in the Magical Arts.
 
A conclave of Enchanters would be necessary and it would need to agree upon general principles of Arcane Doctrine and Hierarchy. It could be based in the current Circle at Lake Calenhad and serve as a center for Magical knowledge and the training of senior mages.
 
Regional academies created under the oversight of the local Banns would be created. The Bann would receive a stipend from the Royal Treasury to maintain the academy and would be authorized to levy a specific tax for the maintenance of Royal-Templar forces in his lands if the stipend is not sufficient.
 
This would necessarily represent the suspension of a greater portion of the Chantry's tithes for Templars and its transformation into a legitimate tax; therefore functionally Freeholders would see little major change from the manner in which they maintain the Knights and soldiers of the Bann.
 
Magical instruction will include alterations to the Harrowing Ritual, which better equip Apprentices for the experience, and continuous inspections by Senior Enchanters and Royal Templars of all academies would be a common occurrence to ensure policies are being followed.
 
Apprentices would be entered into formal Master-Apprentice relationships and placed under the direct charge of a veteran mage, however they would still be allowed to have access to their families and go out into the world, though supervised by their mentor.
 
If done properly the suspension of religious zealotry and the substituting of domestic secular authority and the force of law as wielded from the Throne and the Banns would hopefully alleviate much of the tension between the new Royal Templars and the Mages.
 
Furthermore, the Mages would be allowed to handle their charges with a much freer hand, and in a manner that seems like instruction and not imprisonment.
 
However, in the case of a fallen Apprentice; either a Mage who uses his powers for crime, dabbles with Blood Magic, or becomes an Abomination, there are failsafes.
 
The presence of a professional Royal-Templar force at the call of the Bann ensures immediate and local response to any issues. The Mages of the local academy will be legally required to notify the Bann and the Royal Representative immediately of any such violations under the penalty of complete revocation of freedom for all involved.
 
Abominations and Blood Mages are dealt with accordingly and Senior Mages whose charges fall are sent back to the Circle for review by a full Conclave of Senior Enchanters and either suspended from education and severely restricted in their duties or charged with a crime and dealt with accordingly.
 
Overall, the goal is to treat the Mages as citizens of Ferelden, place the Landsmeet and the Throne in their proper place as the sovereign authority, but at the same time retain oversight and control.
 
You retain your Templar force, strict rules for dealing with criminal mages, and in the process hopefully improve relationships and alleviate major points of tension.
 
The difference is that the authority comes from legal principle and not religious zealotry.
 
And at the same time the Chantry retains its religious incorporation therefore the Reforms have no detrimental effect on the ability of Freeholders to see to their religious convictions.

The best part is that if the Freeholders find the new system is not protective enough, they now have the ability to alter it through the influence of their Bann at the Landsmeet.

Domestic legal oversight and responsiveness to Freeholder concerns. Image IPB

 
Why an extralegal organization with its headquarters in a foreign state is allowed to operate a military force inside Ferelden and exert absolute power over Ferelden citizens is beyond me.
 
I cannot think of any civilization in history that was not a vassal state that retained such a reality. Not even the Catholic Church at the height of its power managed such influence and interventionist authority.
 
 
 
 
 

Modifié par IceHawk-181, 24 juin 2013 - 03:16 .