426 réponses à ce sujet

[Twisted Path]

I almost always make human characters in fantasy RPGs anyway so I'm not terribly bothered with not having a choice. That said I did make a city elf in Origins and enjoyed that playthough a lot just because I thought the human noble background was boring and derivative (I think I had just read A Game of Thrones before I started playing the game.) I think if there had been a well-written human commoner background I would have picked that one first.

The different playable character backgrounds was one of the coolest things about Origins and I'll miss them a lot more than the choice of race. Hopefully the different choosable backgrounds in this new game are interesting and have more of an effect on things then the backgrounds from Mass Effect 1 did.

[Nefla]

The human noble origin was a spoof of your typical fantasy complete with "I have a bad feeling about this," giant rats (only time we ever see them btw), the whole family is betrayed/ murdered, etc...it even makes fun of itself "this sounds like the beginning of every bad adventure tale my grandfather used to tell"

[Plaintiff]

dragondreamer wrote...

In Exile wrote...

dragondreamer wrote...
He doesn't look white to me.  Unless you're implying that non-white exclusively means "black" or "east asian", which I find personally offensive.

Well, no, actually. He has my skintone, and people consider me white. 

My family also has that skintone and we're not considered white in everyday life, nor do we see ourselves as white.  Whenever I hear of people who would like to argue otherwise, it usually smacks of cultural and ethnic erasure, and I'll have to strongly disagree.  But if non-white is only considered "black" by your standards, there were in fact elves and dwarves in Origins that fit that description.

Anyway, this is getting way off topic, and I pretty much had my say already.  

If I may ask, what is your ethnicity? Also, where do you live currently? That might have something to do with the disparity of opinion between you and In Exile.

Fenris looks pretty white to me, and I don't mean to say that he is "white" in ethnic sense, but in terms of actual pigmentation, that is the colour of his skin.

It's entirely possible for the perception of who/what is "white" to change based on time and location. In the early 1900s in America, people of Irish and Italian descent were considered to be "non-white", but that is no longer the case.

[Boycott Bioware]

In Exile wrote...
I honesly can't recall one nonwhite elf or dwarf. Would you be able to point me to a character?

There is one black Dalish Elf woman in Brecilian forst, she sit beside the story teller. In Dalish Origin, Keeper Merethari is black

There are many dark skinned Dwarves in Orzamar, just look at them closely....they look like R&B singers

Modifié par Qistina, 25 juin 2013 - 05:46 .

[Morty Smith]

I will never be able to play a half-elf-half-dwarf-half-dragon-half-fairy-mabari-breed-templermage ...

[TEWR]

In Exile wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
There were non-white elves and dwarves in Origins. If you're saying there should be more diversity all around, then I'm in complete agreement with you, In Exile.

I honesly can't recall one nonwhite elf or dwarf. Would you be able to point me to a character?

I'm absolutely for more diversity, and don't buy this "it's based on Europe, everyone should be white!" nonsense. 

There's an Elf standing guard for the Sabrae clan (her name is Ineria) that seemed to be non-white. She shows up in Act 1 when Hawke ventures to Sundermount and Act 3 during Merrill's quest upon leaving the cavern.

But that's simply my take on her skin tone. I could be wrong.

In Dalish Origin, Keeper Merethari is black

WAT.

How is this anywhere near being black?

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 25 juin 2013 - 05:46 .

[Boycott Bioware]

WAT.

How is this anywhere near being black?

There is not only one black, Africans are black, Indians are black too, Merethari look like Indian woman, in DA2 her voice also sound like Indian woman

Indian means someone from India, not Red Indian

Edit : I think that screen shot taken from high brightness setting

Modifié par Qistina, 25 juin 2013 - 05:52 .

[TEWR]

Well first off, I know that black has different skin tones. But Marethari is clearly white in DAO. Secondly, her DAII voice actress is Irish.

Third, calling Native Americans "Red Indians" is really ****ing offensive, so please don't call them that.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 25 juin 2013 - 05:53 .

[I WANT YOU TO FUCK ME JERY]

In Exile wrote...

I honesly can't recall one nonwhite elf or dwarf. Would you be able to point me to a character?

Adaia, the City Elf Warden's mother...

[dragondreamer]

Plaintiff wrote...

dragondreamer wrote...

In Exile wrote...

dragondreamer wrote...
He doesn't look white to me.  Unless you're implying that non-white exclusively means "black" or "east asian", which I find personally offensive.

Well, no, actually. He has my skintone, and people consider me white. 

My family also has that skintone and we're not considered white in everyday life, nor do we see ourselves as white.  Whenever I hear of people who would like to argue otherwise, it usually smacks of cultural and ethnic erasure, and I'll have to strongly disagree.  But if non-white is only considered "black" by your standards, there were in fact elves and dwarves in Origins that fit that description.

Anyway, this is getting way off topic, and I pretty much had my say already.  

If I may ask, what is your ethnicity? Also, where do you live currently? That might have something to do with the disparity of opinion between you and In Exile.

Fenris looks pretty white to me, and I don't mean to say that he is "white" in ethnic sense, but in terms of actual pigmentation, that is the colour of his skin.

It's entirely possible for the perception of who/what is "white" to change based on time and location. In the early 1900s in America, people of Irish and Italian descent were considered to be "non-white", but that is no longer the case.

I really don't want this to become about me or to potentially derail the thread.  

But for the record, I'm Mexican American, mestizo to be specific, and I live in California, USA.  And Fenris looks brown to me, but again, I don't want to be endlessly "nuh uh" and "uh huh" on this topic.  We'll have to disagree on that.

[Boycott Bioware]

Well first off, I know that black has different skin tones. But Marethari is clearly white in DAO. Secondly, her DAII voice actress is Irish.

Merethari is black in my game, only little brighter than Duncan

Well, i hear her voice sound like Indian, not like Irish

Third, calling Native Americans "Red Indians" is really ****ing offensive, so please don't call them that.

Oh? I am not aware it is offensive, we always call them Red Indians, we also call black people as ****** too, there are many black people in my country, we call them ******, they didn't feel anything

Modifié par Qistina, 25 juin 2013 - 06:00 .

[Allan Schumacher]

Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...

That's kinda my point though.  It's essentially saying "why bother with offering choice since a huge chunk of our players apparently don't care?"  If they are content as a male human because it's the default, wouldn't they also be content as a female human or an elf or whatever?  Why is the presence of more choices an issue for them?  They can go on not caring just as easily if the choice is still there as they can if it isn't.  I had rather the question be "how can we be better at encouraging players to engage by making choices?" because choice is IMO the very best and most unique thing about Bioware games.  Catering to the lowest common denominator "I don't care" gamer seems like a money over quality decision.  I like to think limiting player race is just to expand choices in other areas, but given the difference in DAO and DA2, this doesn't appear to be the case.  It just seems like choice overall diminished. 

The presence of more choice isn't an issue for those players.

If you feel that choice overall is diminished, that more just comes across as a criticism towards DA2 in general, which is fair and valid.


As for "I don't care" gamer, since they don't care, then they aren't going to influence this type of decision.  Unless your frustration is more along the lines of being upset because there are more gamers that don't care as much than you do.

Modifié par Allan Schumacher, 25 juin 2013 - 06:03 .

[Boycott Bioware]

I come from No 1 multiracial country in the world, no country like my country, not even USA, racism issue is something laughable here, because there is no such thing unless someone make it so

If anyone come to my country they are officially come to the "mini world" because everyone is here and they can found everything here...

So don't play racism card with me

[Allan Schumacher]

Withidread wrote...

Sorry Allan, only companies that make lesser RPG's get to use the "well, you know, these are difficult things to write" line. Bioware's history means you get held to higher standards. 

Fine, hold us to those standards, but at least understand what motivates our decisions.  In this case, it's not because VO was in the game.  So yeah, get on our case for making a game with too aggressive of a schedule for what we wanted to do and so forth.  It's not "these things are difficult to write" it's "We have finite resources to make said game.  WHat's the best place for us to put them?"

It's not like player race was in all of our big games, with KOTOR being probably th biggest game before DAO.  Yes, it's different because in DAO you were given player races so I can concede the feeling that it feels like something was taken away from  you, but we don't make these decisions purely in a vacuum, nor are we clairvoyant to know what decisions will be the right ones.

Not having player races means that we put something else in instead (and unfortunately, it's not like we can make a 1:1 match for which feature that means stays in.

[Savber100]

SergeantSnookie wrote...

In Exile wrote...

I honesly can't recall one nonwhite elf or dwarf. Would you be able to point me to a character?

Adaia, the City Elf Warden's mother...

CAN NOT UNSEE 

[Nightdragon8]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

I personally am not happy being locked into one race.

I understand that. You're not the only person.

Having a voiced main character like Hawke as nice, but I'd rather have a muted or at least only partial speaking character like the warden then be locked into a race.

People overstate the VO as being the principal reason for why a decision like this is made. Making Hawke silent would not have brought in player races. Voice work occurs after writing is done, and while it certainly does add a cost, writing elves and dwarves in a Dragon Age appropriate way is a challenge from a text reasons, less so because of the voice.

I agree not too many people are looking at the story, or the setting.

I mean do you seriously honestly think that an Elven family was a noble class in Kirkwall EVER?? Do you think even if they had loads of money would be welcomed in Hightown or even allowed by the rest of the nobles to live in hightown?? Maybe after the quanari incedent but htat would be able it, and even then I don't think they would fully accept it.

They would accept a Drawf long before they accept a Elf.

They don't mind people taking them as servents and living in high town but thats about it.

The Warden honestly the Grey Wardens honestly don't give a F about what race you are, you survie the joining and you can kill darkspawn, you are a brother/sister to them.

So until they change the racisum in the world they really wont have a good place for the other races.

[I WANT YOU TO FUCK ME JERY]

Savber100 wrote...

SergeantSnookie wrote...

In Exile wrote...

I honesly can't recall one nonwhite elf or dwarf. Would you be able to point me to a character?

Adaia, the City Elf Warden's mother...

CAN NOT UNSEE 

Hey, it's true.

http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Adaia

[El Dude 9]

I don't care if the MC is human but it would be cool if they released expansions where you play out a side story from a dwarfs perspective if that makes sense

[Chaos Lord Malek]

I am surprise Bioware put up with this ****. Instead of focusing on what's really matter they trying to cattle to every possible minority there is.

Kudos to them for trying, shame on them for wasting their talents on it.

In Witcher, there are no africans, indians, or asians. In Witcher 2 the only gay character is one of the most foul and wicked pieces of **** i ever seen in computer game, and gets brutally murdered by Roche. In Witcher there are no stupid romances, but there is hardcore sex. And i never heard people complain about it.

Here, with Bioware, if they make non-white enemy or boss from some minority, or if they show Liara's blue ass - everyone and their mother starts complaining about oppression, bad image of race, xenophoby, sexism,etc... And i am not even mentioning people worrying, about having some wired fantasy romance, or not having too big breasts on female characters (seriously how dumb is that???), or the best lines ever "I want race selection or not buying it!", "I want it to be EPIC!", "I want this and that..."

The best thing Bioware could do, is pack everything, went to Arctic for 3 years, and be cut from their fans, from ESRB, from Fox News and the whole world. And then after 3 years they would come back with finished product, free of all this bull**** that the fans and media who are never satisfied put on them.

[IanPolaris]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

It isn't any more problematic than a Mage Champion of Kirkwall being openly tolerated by the Templars in Act 2 and 3.

Actually it is (and iirc DG admitted it was).  In the case of Act 2 and Act 3 Meredith in an unusually tolerant and sensible decision for her decides that Hawke as part of the restored Amell Family is "too hard" a target to challenge directly (esp after being declared Champion).  However, Meredith still has the legal right (as she reminds a pro-mage Apostate Hawke in Act 3) that his living outside the circle is being done entirely at her sufferance.  [I note that Hawke isn't alone.  Apparently many nobles have mages that are technically apostates that work for them, and the local circles and templars turn a blind eye.]

However, at the end of the game, a pro-Templar Apostate Hawke actually becomes Viscount!  This is in direct violation of Chantry Law and everything the Templars (who just annulled the circle) stand for.  I don't see any templar (not even Ser Thrask) tolerating a mage with an actual noble title (let alone a powerful one) for a nano-second.  That IS the sort of thing that could draw an exalted march.

-Polaris

[Plaintiff]

Chaos Lord Malek wrote...

I am surprise Bioware put up with this ****. Instead of focusing on what's really matter they trying to cattle to every possible minority there is.

Kudos to them for trying, shame on them for wasting their talents on it.

In Witcher, there are no africans, indians, or asians. In Witcher 2 the only gay character is one of the most foul and wicked pieces of **** i ever seen in computer game, and gets brutally murdered by Roche. In Witcher there are no stupid romances, but there is hardcore sex. And i never heard people complain about it.

Here, with Bioware, if they make non-white enemy or boss from some minority, or if they show Liara's blue ass - everyone and their mother starts complaining about oppression, bad image of race, xenophoby, sexism,etc... And i am not even mentioning people worrying, about having some wired fantasy romance, or not having too big breasts on female characters (seriously how dumb is that???), or the best lines ever "I want race selection or not buying it!", "I want it to be EPIC!", "I want this and that..."

The best thing Bioware could do, is pack everything, went to Arctic for 3 years, and be cut from their fans, from ESRB, from Fox News and the whole world. And then after 3 years they would come back with finished product, free of all this bull**** that the fans and media who are never satisfied put on them.

El-oh-el.

"The Witcher is a gross and offensive fratdude of a videogame, and nobody complains, so Bioware should stop trying to be socially progresive in any way and should instead aspire to be as awful as CDProjeckt."

[Gallimatia]

Modifié par Gallimatia, 25 juin 2013 - 07:20 .

[esper]

Chaos Lord Malek wrote...

I am surprise Bioware put up with this ****. Instead of focusing on what's really matter they trying to cattle to every possible minority there is.

Kudos to them for trying, shame on them for wasting their talents on it.

In Witcher, there are no africans, indians, or asians. In Witcher 2 the only gay character is one of the most foul and wicked pieces of **** i ever seen in computer game, and gets brutally murdered by Roche. In Witcher there are no stupid romances, but there is hardcore sex. And i never heard people complain about it.

Here, with Bioware, if they make non-white enemy or boss from some minority, or if they show Liara's blue ass - everyone and their mother starts complaining about oppression, bad image of race, xenophoby, sexism,etc... And i am not even mentioning people worrying, about having some wired fantasy romance, or not having too big breasts on female characters (seriously how dumb is that???), or the best lines ever "I want race selection or not buying it!", "I want it to be EPIC!", "I want this and that..."

The best thing Bioware could do, is pack everything, went to Arctic for 3 years, and be cut from their fans, from ESRB, from Fox News and the whole world. And then after 3 years they would come back with finished product, free of all this bull**** that the fans and media who are never satisfied put on them.

And this is among other things why I will never touch the witcher with a ten foot long pole.

[Boycott Bioware]

Even different races of real human have different views on things, such as The Ethereal Writer Redux say calling Native Americans as Red Indian is offensive while not aware at all it is offensive. We use the term "Red Indian" everywhere in the books, news papers media because it is what they are called. I do know the term "******" is offensive in America, but again like the term "Red Indian" we use "******" everywhere referring black people in my country, and they don't mind about it at all. For us, using "Red Indian" and "******" is the same like using "Chinese", "Japanese" and "Indian" referring to those race

You guys sure know "racist joke" isn't it? In my country you guys will hear it a lot and nobody mind about it because every races live here making racist jokes to everyone. We know to differentiate between insults and jokes, but i am sure in the west it will all be taken as "chauvinism" and is a bad thing, but in my country everyone laughed at everyone everyday

So, in the topic of playing different races in DA, it open up to new dimension of views about things. Like i have been mentioned earlier, Elves value magic not like human do and Elves have different view about Blood Magic. Look at Merill, Blood Magic is an old Elven magic. The argument with the Keeper is actually against the lore itself, it just want to establish "Blood Magic = Bad" because the Keeper say so to the player. Because of the player character is human, surely will see "Blood Magic" is bad and evil, the Keeper say so. What if "Hawke" is an Elf of different clan and also a Mage/was his/her Keeper apprentice? Surely having different view about Magic and Blood Magic

Dwarves don't care about magic at all, so how will Dwarves handling things that happen in Kirkwal? Although Hawke is a human and we can only play as human, we can't simply deny that there are a lot of Dwarves in Kirkwal. So, do they never get involved in situation involving magic?

That is what we/I want to see when replaying, different thing, different perspective, different view, different everything

Being a Grey Warden as a Cousland is different with other races, there are things that i mislook as Cousland but i can see it clearly as Dalish...and so on...

[Gnoster]

I don't think you can make the judgement that the only type of protagonist Bioware will ever from this day forward allow you to play will be human based solely on the fact you can't pick your race in Dragon Age: Inquisition.

Personally I don't see any problem with Bioware restricting race choice in Dragon Age or Mass Effect (where the non-choice has never been seen as an issue). A lot of games from different developers have protagonists set in stone, so much so that often you can't even pick your gender.

To me dragon Age: Inquisition is an entirely different game than Dragon Age: Origin, and honestly I wouldn't want another Origins, as I have already played that. I want something new, and if the best story can be built by basing the game on a human female/male protagonist, then go for it. And this doesn't mean one couldn't imagine a future game set in the DA universe wouldn't feature an elven protagonist or free choice of race.