426 réponses à ce sujet

[FKA_Servo]

AlanC9 wrote...

TommyServo wrote...
You kinda glide right past this and address issues relating to this "default protagonist" stuff in DA2, but come on - this was a pretty massive oversight on Bioware's part with the human noble origin. Obviously, it must have occurred to you, since you addressed it in DA2 - fantastically, I would add - with Hawke's family.

Not just human noble. Dwarf noble's even worse, since Bhelen is a major character and Fergus is not. City elf's a problem too. I don't recall how the others play out.

I'm not sure oversight's the right word. I thought that making the families match the PC was on Bio's nice-to-have list the whole time.

My anthropocentrism is getting the best of me - funny, considering the thread. You're right, of course. I haven't ever played a Dwarf noble or a city Elf, but the issue is there for Brosca as well, with your mother and sister having their default appearances regardless of how you create your character.

[AlanC9]

happy_daiz wrote...

Back to my original point/question, I'm guessing only the first playthrough counted, right? It would seem to make sense, as most of the time when I see numbers posted like that, I have to roll my eyes - because if it's not race being misrepresented, it's the gender of the pc. In all of my runs, I play as female, yet the numbers wouldn't seem to support that. If in 10 playthroughs out of 10, I'm female, shouldn't that carry a heavier weight than playing as one in my original playthrough? It doesn't seem to, though.  /rambling

Should your ten plays count more? You bought one copy, same as someone who only played once.

Bio can look at multiple playthroughs if they like; data collection diesn't stop just because the player has finished the game.

[happy_daiz]

AlanC9 wrote...

happy_daiz wrote...

Back to my original point/question, I'm guessing only the first playthrough counted, right? It would seem to make sense, as most of the time when I see numbers posted like that, I have to roll my eyes - because if it's not race being misrepresented, it's the gender of the pc. In all of my runs, I play as female, yet the numbers wouldn't seem to support that. If in 10 playthroughs out of 10, I'm female, shouldn't that carry a heavier weight than playing as one in my original playthrough? It doesn't seem to, though.  /rambling

Should your ten plays count more? You bought one copy, same as someone who only played once.

Bio can look at multiple playthroughs if they like; data collection diesn't stop just because the player has finished the game.

I don't know. Maybe? You bring up a good point, but I'm female, and I'd really like to just get my way.

Multiple playthrough statistics could be interesting and informative, though. I'd be curious to know if people are like I was, and tried (most) origins, before settling upon one to rinse and repeat.

Modifié par happy_daiz, 25 juin 2013 - 06:53 .

[cmessaz]

Melca36 wrote...

Nefla wrote...

Silfren wrote...
Think you'll find that most people don't give a damn about what color the protagonist is, since most people never bother with the default face anyway.

And just WTF is going on here anyway? Why are so many people here annoyed about playing as a human?  You want to play as a dwarf or elf or whatever? THEN PAY FOR THE EXTRA VOICE ACTORS AND MATERIALS YOURSELF. I mean seriously, throwing your toys out of the pram just because your charater dosen't have pointed ears?


Jesus.

Because humans were by far the most boring race and origin in DA:O and DA2 where you could only be human was boring in general, they didn't add anything that made up for the loss. I don't see why you would need a different VA for each race, swtor is voiced by class so a Sith Pureblood inquisitor will sound just like a Twi'lek inquisitor and it works perfectly fine.i would pay more for race options though, I would pay twice the price of a new game not to be stuck as human only again.

Thats your Opinion.   Some of us had enough imagination to enjoy them just as much as the other Origins.

^^ lol yeah. And speak for yourself I love being human, even in games where I had the choice to not be I still prefer human.

Like Silfen said the other races cost resources, voice actors, etc. I would rather they focus their attention on gameplay, avoiding plot holes and level design.

[Rawgrim]

Silfren wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I think it's an underlying view for the developers. Varric's story starts off with a white Hawke, which is awkward for some players, especially those of is who never intended to create a white Champion of Kirkwall. The developers never even bothered to consider having The Warden's family members match his (or her) skin tone if the player created a non-white protagonist.

We've also gotten some dismissive responses about the lack of diversity in Thedas when players bring up the subject.

Jade Empire had auto-default asian characters. Is that racist too?

Well Hawke IS from Lothering, after all. People are white in that part of the DA world. 

Not everyone is white. And the player can make Hawke brown or black, so starting him (or her) off as white seems like an odd (and uncomfortable) move, especially when Varric talks about this version of Hawke's story as the one people have heard.

Why? There's no racist element to this. It's default Hawke vs non default Hawke. Ethnic Fereldens are supposedy white anyway. Darker skinned humans are descended from further north in Thedas. If you hear a story about a hero from Ferelden and know almost none of the details, it's not a huge stretch to imagine he's white. Many figures from history have an "iconic" appearance that exists in popular culture that wasn't what they actually looked like.

I wasn't uncomfortable in Kotor 2 when Atton "incorrectly" assumes that Revan was a woman during the early conversations where the player can choose who Revan was.

Actually there IS a racist element to it. It's passive, which makes it harder to see--damn near invisible, really--for those not directly affected by it, rather than overt, but it is most assuredly there.  Any time 'white' is the auto-default, you can pretty much rest assured that there's no small amount of race-based privilege going on.  Especially when people trip over themselves to rationalize it away rather than acknowledging it and, y'know...working to change it.

Jade empire had asians as default characters. Is that racist too?

Modifié par Rawgrim, 25 juin 2013 - 07:46 .

[FKA_Servo]

Edited to keep on topic.

Modifié par TommyServo, 25 juin 2013 - 08:38 .

[Rawgrim]

TommyServo wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

Jade empire had asians as default characters. Is that racist too?

That's actually completely irrelevant to just about everything the conversation has been about so far.

That said, no. It's not the same thing, and the way you're invoking it suggests that you're not really interested in granting consideration to the reasons why.

I was replying to someone who said everytme "white" is default, ts some hidden racism going on. Jade Empire has defautl asians, so that would mean Jade Empire is racist too.

Completely relevant.

[Airdeen]

One thing I have some trouble understanding is why some people have so many problems with a game like DA where you can choose yourself what your character looks like (regardless of what the default marketed character looks like).

There are loads of games out there where you have zero choice when it comes to what the character looks like. The vast majority of those games have a white male protagonist you cannot change. Do you write those developers and let them know you don't like their choice of character design? If you do, good. If you don't, maybe you should think about doing that since that should be a bigger problem than a default white protagonist in a game where you can easily change what the character looks like.

I do think the idea of a random generator sounds like the best option if possible. This is because regardless what ethnic group or skin colour the default character is based on someone or other is going to get offended by the developer's choice even if no offense was ever intended.

As for the original topic, I liked playing elf and dwarf as much as a human one. In fact, I think my favourite Warden so far was my Dwarven one. So I really do hope they bring back race choice if it fits in a future game.

[Medhia Nox]

Bioware - just provide three phenotypes.

Emaciated
Normal
Stunted

There you go - we've fixed the problem.

[FKA_Servo]

Edited to keep on track out of respect for the OP's post below.

Modifié par TommyServo, 25 juin 2013 - 08:34 .

[Karlone123]

I'd appreciate it if people could stay on topic, I'm suprised that Alan Schumacher or anyone else hasn't locked my thread already. So please make a thread discussing issue with ethnicty. I wanted to make a valid subject to talk about, not for making overassumptions because of default Hawke being white.

Modifié par Karlone123, 25 juin 2013 - 08:30 .

[Eveangaline]

TommyServo wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

TommyServo wrote...
You kinda glide right past this and address issues relating to this "default protagonist" stuff in DA2, but come on - this was a pretty massive oversight on Bioware's part with the human noble origin. Obviously, it must have occurred to you, since you addressed it in DA2 - fantastically, I would add - with Hawke's family.

Not just human noble. Dwarf noble's even worse, since Bhelen is a major character and Fergus is not. City elf's a problem too. I don't recall how the others play out.

I'm not sure oversight's the right word. I thought that making the families match the PC was on Bio's nice-to-have list the whole time.

My anthropocentrism is getting the best of me - funny, considering the thread. You're right, of course. I haven't ever played a Dwarf noble or a city Elf, but the issue is there for Brosca as well, with your mother and sister having their default appearances regardless of how you create your character.

Correct me if I'm remembering wrong, but don't all of those origins have one of the PCs parents missing? One they could theoretically take after? Unlike the Human Noble origin.

Plus with the dwarves, for the royals there's no telling if you even share the same mother, and with the casteless dwarf no telling if you share the same father.

[Allan Schumacher]

Agreed, I'll shift my questions I had to PMs.

Return to on topic or the thread will probably be closed.

My answer to topic: each game that decision will get made, so unless we stop making games, the chance is never 0.

[freche]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

And yes, you are correct that the fact that the defaults are our big numbers gives indication that some people just didn't bother changing it. This doesn't really mean anything, however, since those people will presumably still be content playing as a human going forward (i.e. they will be disinclined to care at all).

As an experiment, the next time you offer race choices you should randomise the default during character creation.  See what that does to usage data.

I find this an interesting idea.

The majority will still play as Human.

[AlanC9]

happy_daiz wrote...


Multiple playthrough statistics could be interesting and informative, though. I'd be curious to know if people are like I was, and tried (most) origins, before settling upon one to rinse and repeat.

Looking at my DAO profile, they should be able to tell that, unless they're not keeping time-stamps on the incoming data, which would be dumb but not inconceivable.

Though I don't klnow how accurate the data is. Both my dwarf characters are missing from my profile. And my human noble too. Oddly enough, I have the Zevran Romance achievement I got with one of the missing characters. (She actually looked just  like your Warden Arya, except blonde -- maybe we were modifying the same preset?)

Modifié par AlanC9, 25 juin 2013 - 08:55 .

[AlanC9]

Eveangaline wrote...

Correct me if I'm remembering wrong, but don't all of those origins have one of the PCs parents missing? One they could theoretically take after? Unlike the Human Noble origin.

Plus with the dwarves, for the royals there's no telling if you even share the same mother, and with the casteless dwarf no telling if you share the same father.

I see what you mean now. Yes, that gives a lot of leeway.

[Deviija]

I'd enjoy playing something other than Human.

And though DA:O data could be interesting when it comes to human vs. non-human players, there are many other relating factors and unasked questions. One reason I played human for my second playthrough was because I thought the Human Noble Origin was nicely done. I thought Dalish was incredibly dull, and (after a while) City Elf to be very problematic. My elf Warden lass is my 'canon' main, but if I were to sit down to Origins anew, for my first playthrough, I'd likely never play elf due to their storylines. Not because of the race. So... yep. Other unknown factors in such data.

[happy_daiz]

AlanC9 wrote...

happy_daiz wrote...


Multiple playthrough statistics could be interesting and informative, though. I'd be curious to know if people are like I was, and tried (most) origins, before settling upon one to rinse and repeat.

Looking at my DAO profile, they should be able to tell that, unless they're not keeping time-stamps on the incoming data, which would be dumb but not inconceivable.

Though I don't klnow how accurate the data is. Both my dwarf characters are missing from my profile. And my human noble too. Oddly enough, I have the Zevran Romance achievement I got with one of the missing characters. (She actually looked just  like your Warden Arya, except blonde -- maybe we were modifying the same preset?)

Yeah, I notice that at least one of my characters shows up three times, and a couple are missing. I guess we could assume that there's just something wacky about BSN (I'm chuckling as I type that), but I hope that doesn't mean our stats are just as messed up.

But, back on topic. I don't mind playing as a human. Really, I don't. But I'm torn between really wanting to play as a different race, and needing/wanting some kind of 'difference' implied by playing as a different race.

And how would you define the requirements for something like that? Would you want NPCs to recognize your race, and acknowledge it in their random comments ("What is it, Orc", "Stay out of trouble, lizard", etc., ala Skyrim); would you want them to act differently? Would it require separate VAs for each race? Different body models? Different armors?

I don't know. Ultimately, it's up to BW what they want to do, and I'll respect that. But a girl can dream, right? I'd like to have my cake, and eat it, too.

Modifié par happy_daiz, 25 juin 2013 - 09:48 .

[Lindum]

I would've liked to of seen race choice in DAI. But, Bioware have made the decision to make the protagonist human and only time will tell, if having a human protagonist is the right decision.

In addition, I believe having race choice in a fantasy rpg, adds replayability to a game and I hope race choices are present in the next Dragon Age game.

[Nerevar-as]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Nerevar-as wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...


Not having player races means that we put something else in instead (and unfortunately, it's not like we can make a 1:1 match for which feature that means stays in.

So what did you put instead in DA2? I saw nothing that couldn´t be done with elf or dwarf with only some writing changes. The "story only works with a human PC" excuse doesn´t work, especially in a game where any attempt at verisimilitude died the moment we where in KW with a mage in the party.

I find it interesting that in a post where I effectively say you can't expect me to say what is or is not in the the game as a result, you then ask me what is in the game as a result of the decision.

Are you of the assumption that people were just sitting idle because they didn't have multiple races to make?

Considering DAII, I feel curious what was introduced instead, 1:1 ratio or not. And it was you (meaning BW. not you personally) who said DAII was only human because the story only worked with a human PC. Then the game showed otherwise, imho.

Anyway, I guess you can´t tell how budget is distributed among the different teams and components of the game? Maybe that would shed some light into why certain design choices are made.

[Sable Rhapsody]

Lindum wrote...
In addition, I believe having race choice in a fantasy rpg, adds replayability to a game and I hope race choices are present in the next Dragon Age game.

Race choice isn't the only thing that adds replayability in a game.  In fact, if DA:I varies about as much as Origins did based on the Inquisitor's character background, I'd say that's just as good.  IMO for Origins, the background mattered as much as or more than the race.  Human Mage and Human Noble were both human, but very different in feel.

[LobselVith8]

Karlone123 wrote...

I'd appreciate it if people could stay on topic, I'm suprised that Alan Schumacher or anyone else hasn't locked my thread already. So please make a thread discussing issue with ethnicty. I wanted to make a valid subject to talk about, not for making overassumptions because of default Hawke being white.

I don't think the last line of your post was necessary. I'll keep it at that.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 25 juin 2013 - 11:06 .

[KR4U55]

I hate to write off-topic, but please go on topic again. Mr. Schumacher generally answers doubds and heavier stuff only to be responded by fan ******.

Anyways, back on topic. I'm pretty sure the last DA2 didn't had race selection because a large part of the plot is becoming "noble", or at least a "respectable citizen". If the Inquisitor were a dwarf or an elf s/he would be extremply prejudged by every sentient being on Thedas. Remember teh City Elf origin could end with an elf Bann, an extremly controvercial situation that outraged all the human nobles.

Besides, NOBODY would ever take an elf Inquisitor seriously. Commoners would most probably attack him/her or try to get them arrested for "Wearing a law enforcer uniform".

[LobselVith8]

KR4U55 wrote...

Anyways, back on topic. I'm pretty sure the last DA2 didn't had race selection because a large part of the plot is becoming "noble", or at least a "respectable citizen". If the Inquisitor were a dwarf or an elf s/he would be extremply prejudged by every sentient being on Thedas. Remember teh City Elf origin could end with an elf Bann, an extremly controvercial situation that outraged all the human nobles.

An apostate Hawke becoming Champion should have been just as controversial, if not more so given the view of mages in the Andrastian kingdoms. The lack of the elven and dwarven options for the protagonist seems like more of an issue of time constraints, rather than the story only working for a human protagonist - since most of the story could have worked, hypothetically, with an elven or dwarven main character.

KR4U55 wrote...

Besides, NOBODY would ever take an elf Inquisitor seriously. Commoners would most probably attack him/her or try to get them arrested for "Wearing a law enforcer uniform".

Wouldn't those same people attack a mage Inquisitor as well?

[KR4U55]

LobselVith8 wrote...

KR4U55 wrote...

Anyways, back on topic. I'm pretty sure the last DA2 didn't had race selection because a large part of the plot is becoming "noble", or at least a "respectable citizen". If the Inquisitor were a dwarf or an elf s/he would be extremply prejudged by every sentient being on Thedas. Remember teh City Elf origin could end with an elf Bann, an extremly controvercial situation that outraged all the human nobles.

An apostate Hawke becoming Champion should have been just as controversial, if not more so given the view of mages in the Andrastian kingdoms. The lack of the elven and dwarven options for the protagonist seems like more of an issue of time constraints, rather than the story only working for a human protagonist - since most of the story could have worked, hypothetically, with an elven or dwarven main character.

First of all in DA2  Hawke managed to avoid suspicion (Maker knows how)
of being an apostate. S/He used his/her wealth to recover part of the
Amell legacy, making him/her a really influencial citizen, turning
accusations into rumours. Apparently nobody realized Hawke was a mage
until the end of Act 2, and by then nobody cared.

I admit, I am defending the story with the full knowledge the Inquisitor "could" be of any race, but as you said, due time constrains and what-not developing the full game to acknowledge the player character's race, with all that it implies, is imposible.

LobselVith8 wrote...

KR4U55 wrote...

Besides, NOBODY would ever take an elf Inquisitor seriously. Commoners would most probably attack him/her or try to get them arrested for "Wearing a law enforcer uniform".

Wouldn't those same people attack a mage Inquisitor as well?

Elven are third class commoners (just behind thieves and beggars, mostly for combining those two) and none of them can even aspire to normal citizenship anywhere. A human wearing robes with the Inquisition's heraldry is kind of protected. Watching an elf with said heraldry would be the equivalent of having a woman as your boss in the 50's.