426 réponses à ce sujet

[Angrywolves]

Good for you. Ah nice to have Schumaker join us.Rotfl. I feel pretty sure we'll be stuck as a human from now on, except for the Frank Gibeau mandated mp of course. We'll just have to live with it.

[Zanallen]

Drasanil wrote...

I would say the chance might as well be zero, since this is now two games where it appears to have been the first thing you cut and announced long before you were ready to talk about anything else. 

From the outside it seems like Bioware didn't even bother trying to include it. So why take at face value statements to the contrary when you're establishing a fairly clear pattern of not being willing to do it?

Well, let's look at Bioware's overall history:

BG1, BG2 and NWN - Race choice.
KotOR, Jade Empire, ME1 - No Race Choice
DAO - Race choice
ME2, DA2, ME3, DAI - No race choice.

It is a feature that comes and goes.

[Angrywolves]

The BG and NWN games were a life time ago game wise. It took them 6 years to do DAO. They say they'll never do that again.
We need to just accept it's gone and move on.

[addiction21]

Angrywolves wrote...

The BG and NWN games were a life time ago game wise. It took them 6 years to do DAO. They say they'll never do that again.
We need to just accept it's gone and move on.

Not a life time ago.

And DA:O taking 6 years means nothing since BioWare has developed many games in less time that had a race choice to them.

Also if all you can do is play chicken little maybe its time you move on.

[Angrywolves]

addiction 21 wrong again ? rotfl. Believe what you want to buddy.

[Zanallen]

Angrywolves wrote...

addiction 21 wrong again ? rotfl. Believe what you want to buddy.

How is he wrong? Bioware made BG2, the game a lot of old school RPG fans hail as their best, in just about two years.

Modifié par Zanallen, 27 juin 2013 - 02:15 .

[SamFlagg]

Zanallen wrote...

Angrywolves wrote...

addiction 21 wrong again ? rotfl. Believe what you want to buddy.

How is he wrong? Bioware made BG2, the game a lot of old school RPG fans hail as their best, in just about two years.

I believe there is a general misconception about how much work goes into coding and designing games now vs games in previous eras.  And not just how much work but how much expense.  (No I didn't spend all day making updates to use cases why do you ask?)  It is significantly more complicated that people who haven't worked and technology realize.

Not more complicated to design from an abstract point of view necessarily, but way more complicated to get all of the pieces of the code to play nice, therefore added complexity adds development time, extended development time eats away at profits.  And profits are the only thing that allows you to release a game after this one.

This isn't an excuse it is a reality.

Now if Bioware had designed DA:O where all the races were equal and only physically different from one another, they could've busted out ALL the races from then on, because it wouldn't have mattered if you were an elf or a dwarf or a human.  But they didn't, even though race didn't matter terribly much in origins it did matter in places, and frankly you only got to travel in cool places because you were a warden, otherwise your sad city elf hide could sleep in the gutter.

Although to be fair, I think people are wrongheaded to suggest that multiple races should mean multiple voice actors for each race, there is no reason that the dwarf/elf/human couldn't sound alike seeing as as soon as one is in the universe the other two cease to exist.

[Zanallen]

SamFlagg wrote...

I believe there is a general misconception about how much work goes into coding and designing games now vs games in previous eras.  And not just how much work but how much expense.  (No I didn't spend all day making updates to use cases why do you ask?)  It is significantly more complicated that people who haven't worked and technology realize.

Not more complicated to design from an abstract point of view necessarily, but way more complicated to get all of the pieces of the code to play nice, therefore added complexity adds development time, extended development time eats away at profits.  And profits are the only thing that allows you to release a game after this one.

This isn't an excuse it is a reality.

Now if Bioware had designed DA:O where all the races were equal and only physically different from one another, they could've busted out ALL the races from then on, because it wouldn't have mattered if you were an elf or a dwarf or a human.  But they didn't, even though race didn't matter terribly much in origins it did matter in places, and frankly you only got to travel in cool places because you were a warden, otherwise your sad city elf hide could sleep in the gutter.

Although to be fair, I think people are wrongheaded to suggest that multiple races should mean multiple voice actors for each race, there is no reason that the dwarf/elf/human couldn't sound alike seeing as as soon as one is in the universe the other two cease to exist.

No one is saying it wouldn't be more complicated or more work. They would have to design the story to fit having multiple race options, have the armor scale to fit the various builds, hopefully have some differences in storyline to recognize the race choices and so on and so forth. But it is certainly doable in far less than a six year development cycle. I'd say three years would be good if you already have the engine, lore and everything else in place ahead of time. Personally, I don't give a damn if we never get race choice again as I don't feel it adds much at all to the game. I just think it is a little silly to dismiss it as never going to happen again so very quickly.

[SamFlagg]

Zanallen wrote...

SamFlagg wrote...

I believe there is a general misconception about how much work goes into coding and designing games now vs games in previous eras.  And not just how much work but how much expense.  (No I didn't spend all day making updates to use cases why do you ask?)  It is significantly more complicated that people who haven't worked and technology realize.

Not more complicated to design from an abstract point of view necessarily, but way more complicated to get all of the pieces of the code to play nice, therefore added complexity adds development time, extended development time eats away at profits.  And profits are the only thing that allows you to release a game after this one.

This isn't an excuse it is a reality.

Now if Bioware had designed DA:O where all the races were equal and only physically different from one another, they could've busted out ALL the races from then on, because it wouldn't have mattered if you were an elf or a dwarf or a human.  But they didn't, even though race didn't matter terribly much in origins it did matter in places, and frankly you only got to travel in cool places because you were a warden, otherwise your sad city elf hide could sleep in the gutter.

Although to be fair, I think people are wrongheaded to suggest that multiple races should mean multiple voice actors for each race, there is no reason that the dwarf/elf/human couldn't sound alike seeing as as soon as one is in the universe the other two cease to exist.

No one is saying it wouldn't be more complicated or more work. They would have to design the story to fit having multiple race options, have the armor scale to fit the various builds, hopefully have some differences in storyline to recognize the race choices and so on and so forth. But it is certainly doable in far less than a six year development cycle. I'd say three years would be good if you already have the engine, lore and everything else in place ahead of time. Personally, I don't give a damn if we never get race choice again as I don't feel it adds much at all to the game. I just think it is a little silly to dismiss it as never going to happen again so very quickly.

On the last point about 'dismissing it as never going to happen being silly' we are in agreement. 

I do think it would take less than 6 years, because for one thing, the general setting exists, and with a general setting you have a better idea of what can and can't be done there.

I was just trying to point out that from experience I've learned that there is a pretty fair under estimation of the time and expense in adding some of these features.  Not that they aren't great to have, and not that perhaps from a design standpoint they should be thought of, just that it takes more to put them in than saying "Here's some elf ears, boom elf!"

Granted, they could also just have no one acknowledge the race of the protagonist but that would probably make things worse.

[Angrywolves]

Addiction 21 has been wrong about other things in the forum. shrugs. Not picking on him. It is what it is. He knows this btw. shrugs.
How many people who worked on the BG/NWN games still work for Bioware ?
I suspect not many if any. shrugs

[Boycott Bioware]

SamFlagg wrote...
Although to be fair, I think people are wrongheaded to suggest that multiple races should mean multiple voice actors for each race, there is no reason that the dwarf/elf/human couldn't sound alike seeing as as soon as one is in the universe the other two cease to exist.

Anora steward is an Elf, she speak Orlesian, it feel awkward

It not just "sound alike", but language, accent and slang come into account. We can assume that Anora's steward grow up in Orlais that is why she speak Orlesian, that is "background", an Elf who grow up in Orlais, surely it is different with an Elf who grow up with the Dalish

Language define the character, so now we have an Inquisitor a human, and have voice, what language he/she use and why? If he/she speak like Ferelden, why? If he/she speak Orlesian, why? If he/she speak like Dwarves, why?

You see, that narrowing the player character, i am sure Bioware will not make a main character not speaking standard English for voice acting. Orlesian accent is bad, you want your hero/heroine speak like that?

[SamFlagg]

Qistina wrote...

SamFlagg wrote...
Although to be fair, I think people are wrongheaded to suggest that multiple races should mean multiple voice actors for each race, there is no reason that the dwarf/elf/human couldn't sound alike seeing as as soon as one is in the universe the other two cease to exist.

Anora steward is an Elf, she speak Orlesian, it feel awkward

It not just "sound alike", but language, accent and slang come into account. We can assume that Anora's steward grow up in Orlais that is why she speak Orlesian, that is "background", an Elf who grow up in Orlais, surely it is different with an Elf who grow up with the Dalish

Language define the character, so now we have an Inquisitor a human, and have voice, what language he/she use and why? If he/she speak like Ferelden, why? If he/she speak Orlesian, why? If he/she speak like Dwarves, why?

You see, that narrowing the player character, i am sure Bioware will not make a main character not speaking standard English for voice acting. Orlesian accent is bad, you want your hero/heroine speak like that?

Race difference vs. for lack of a better term, Country difference.  The Fereldens all sound similar to one another regardless of race, as to the Orlesians to other Orlesians.


Accent only matters if in addition to racial background you were also picking country background.
Slang would be recording a few more lines of dialouge but with the same voice actor it would be possible and just have conditional lines only spoken.

I'm just suggesting in a future sequel world where there would be a choice, realistically the protagonists race isn't terribly much more work by using just two voice actors for all racaial varients instead of a suggestion that I swear I read somewhere that it would mean a whole slew of extra voice actors.

This of course does not get around having the world then react to the race you've chosen which is a different issue entirely.

[Andraste_Reborn]

How many people who worked on the BG/NWN games still work for Bioware ?
I suspect not many if any. shrugs

Actually, off the top of my head: James Ohlen, Mark Darrah, David Gaider, Luke Kristjanson and of course Evil Chris Priestly. There's probably others, but I'm less likely to recognise the names of programmers, artists and animators in the credits than the names of directors and writers.

There's quite a lot of continuity from the BG series to Dragon Age and other recent BioWare games, given how much time has passed.

[TygerHeart]

Character creation can easily turn into http://www.goblinscomic.org/07112005/

Forgotten Realms... loved the freedom, but in a lot of ways it WAS very shallow. (And with the death of Mod'ing by DLC and DRM, unable to be improved upon anymore.)

But that said, it was awesome in DA:O, which made it harder to loose later.

[Oasis_JS]

TygerHeart wrote...

Character creation can easily turn into http://www.goblinscomic.org/07112005/

Forgotten Realms... loved the freedom, but in a lot of ways it WAS very shallow. (And with the death of Mod'ing by DLC and DRM, unable to be improved upon anymore.)

But that said, it was awesome in DA:O, which made it harder to loose later.

yeah well said about the last part..that whats made it harder for the fans who really enjoy the different characters how each one had their own origin start  and so on 

going off topic kind of   also playing.. swtor these days..makes me sometimes oh..they were able to pull it off in swtor but not in da   2 and da 3 (but I also understand hows in swtor  the character of each class had to have  their own voice actor. because each character story was different, that they needed to give the player that unique exp. also they spend hell of money on it..so they had the money to hired the actors. haha)

who knows what will happen after with newer da games.  i feel.. it only be elf or a human in the future so the singer player exp.  i already read post by people.. the whole thing about voicing actor would it be the same one or not. and so on

but over all..its open to them at the end.. i dunno it could be budget..the whole story board thinga for each race.. yes. they can just cycle it through but it still a lot of work.. becase each  the elf or human will get different reactions for beign a human or a elf. so yeah..its all about time and so on.. =p

i hope new da's when it does come out..has at least those two choices. ^^ will just have to wait and see for future games =D

but i am still a big supporter for da games. i always will be.

Modifié par Oasis_JS, 27 juin 2013 - 10:26 .

[karushna5]

@Allan
Some ideas:

As far as Player Race...
I do believe that not having another race in a world like dragon age is difficult than for other games, mostly because they have so much lore and culture within the game, that even people playing humans as the only option would wish for the chance to play them. I play a lot of pen and paper RPGs and something players find the biggest thing that separates them from the rest of the group or even as a definition, is race.

there are games where this is less the case when cultures are VASTLY different from each other, then it gives a feeling like a race choice. Are you a nomad with a strong connection to your horse? are you a warrior barbarian from a culture similiar to Vikings fighting against your overlords? Or a scholar from the golden city? These things can replace race when they have very different aspects.

even Sci Fi has aliens or different planets

Fereldan, culturally, was very very similiar to Kirkwall, as will Orlais to a point, it is all medieval Europe without huge diffrance between people. To have that as an option...and then not is limiting more than you may realize. We want that different feel, to immediately have a grounding of character. Fact is, dwarves and Elves have a different culture that gives us more of a boundary with character. This is more true when said Cultures are unique, in depth, and unalien(which is why I never want Kossith to be a playable race as most of their background is beyond relate able )

Player race then plays a role without it even comes up, it gives the player a role from the start, and many players in RPGs will concern themselves far more with race than anything else. To them it adds color that class and country(especially when said setting is mostly very similiar with cultural diffrances but no real innate differance, they even share the same religion) players find the only way to have a unique experiance is to change the culture/ race of a character.

as dwarves and elves are the only ones with different beliefs and basic structure different, and it being a staple of fantasy role playing, and having it available, and then not, a player making a character feels very limited as to their distinction and power.

I can deal without it, and many others can as well, but it will always feel a bit of a lack, not on your part, but the setting and being able to make your own characters, along with a set culture that comes with being human, admittedly thus far but Orlais while being fascinating will never have a true differance from Fereldan that the Dalish nomads or the caste oriented Dwarves, simply due to having the same basic culture.

Still I know you put a lot of love in this game, but that will leave a sad and limited feeling regardless, no offense to you.

On actual Race...
The problem is even if Varric only did that with the Chantry, it is white washing, and even puts real life racism on the feet of the Chantry something never done before. Also it reinforces the terrible idea that White is 'normal'. It was not intended but it is something people can be very much hurt over especially in a game about your own hero. Fact is, we have never heard of the Chantry disliking other races, and it is not on the player to try to explain away why Varric made them White.

it is not just about the players perceptions, the fact is it is common for stories about Blacks and other People of Color to be played by a lighter actor or even completely made White. It is damaging and in the players mind this is what happened, because it has happened so many times before. The fact anyone would even change their race for the audience smacks of racism and it happens even now. The movie Warm Bodies was originally a story where the love interest was Black...that didn't happen. And yes, people say they picked the best actor, but people get outraged when a Black actor wants to play an iconic character while another Whitewashing is defended.

People are taught that White is default and to be otherwise is other. Everything Gaider spoke recently about sexism is doubly true for People of Color worst of all for a woman of Color. It is fine to change the default but when the story is initially told as a White character... That says something about what is normal and their story. That is very hurtful.

Finally, I know you guys love your games and probably put so much love into them, but people will get offended when eventually you do something wrong and angry about being hurt. You admitted it was an unintended mistake, but blaming him for his anger isn't fair, since it is partly justified. It often gets into that he has to be polite when he is wronged, not intentionally, but it does happen. It is like accidentally cutting someone and expecting them to apologize and ask you kindly not do it again. More likely they will yell out in pain and ask you "Why were you an idiot?" And even get angry. No you are not an idiot, and you didn't mean to, but the proper response is always sorry and a willingness to always look out to never do it again. But saying I am not an idiot don't be so mean, and it is your fault for being there is wrong. Worst of all is expecting him to always meekly ask you to please remove the glass please is the only way he will not get cut.

Modifié par karushna5, 27 juin 2013 - 07:11 .

[panamakira]

Edited to stay in topic.

Back to OP's question: I really hope not. Humans are ok but can feel a little boring when you could try other races. I would love to play a game from an elf's perspective. Maybe where they can somehow improve things for other elves. I enjoyed the City Elf Origin a lot since it put the character in a difficult situation to live and eventually persevere but not really improve the situation for other elves. 

Modifié par panamakira, 27 juin 2013 - 07:29 .

[Uccio]

Angrywolves wrote...

The BG and NWN games were a life time ago game wise. It took them 6 years to do DAO. They say they'll never do that again.
We need to just accept it's gone and move on.

You mean move to another game company?

[Allan Schumacher]

BasilKarlo wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...
<snip>

A
lot of your responses to criticisms are hollow and the rest are just
dancing around the point. You're not even actually responding to the
criticisms regarding race in Origins, just saying "We weren't too lazy to do it and we didn't just overlook, we just didn't think about it."
And your response to criticism regarding the race of Hawke is nonsense.
Varric is supposed to be telling the truth. That's reiterated numerous
times throughout the game. Making Hawke into a white person just
because is not a minor embellishment or some slight against Cassandra.
What the hell are you even implying?

If you read my post, you'd see that I said
"It's a mistake."  I didn't say "We weren't too lazy to do it and
didn't just overlook it it, we just didn't think about it" because "we just didn't think about it" is overlooking it.

When I say "So yeah, I'm sorry the chargen sequence makes you feel uncomfortable. 
It's a very astute point, and not one that I had even considered during
the entirety of development.  It's certainly something that I can take
from this and learn going forward" it means "It's something I overlooked."

The whole Varric stuff was because a poster was getting upset at the point another poster was making the suggestion that Varric was telling some myth'd version, and the first poster didn't like the idea that the myth'd version involved a White Hawke.  Going down that path, one can interpret it a different way.

And no, the stuff that Varric tells Cassandra pre chargen is supposed to be exaggerated.  Varric may be telling the truth through the rest of the game, but not at that point.


And yes, having the player's depiction of skin is something I didn't even think would be an issue.  Hence: I overlooked it.  It's a mistake, and something that hopefully doesn't happen again.

I am saying that, if you think we didn't do it because we're lazy (or even "just because"), it's important to note that you're giving off some Unfortunate Implications of your own.  Implications such as "BioWare is racist."  In doing so, you're going to make me very defensive, and you shift me from a position of empathy, to one of feeling guarded.

[Allan Schumacher]

I would say the chance might as well be zero, since this is now two games where it appears to have been the first thing you cut and announced long before you were ready to talk about anything else.

Is there any sort of non-spiteful-towards-fans reasons why you think that there may have been technical challenges for doing so? (with the move to Frostbite)

From the outside it seems like Bioware didn't even bother trying to include it. So why take at face value statements to the contrary when you're establishing a fairly clear pattern of not being willing to do it?

What makes you seem like we didn't even bother trying to include it? What would you need to see to convince you that some effort was actually put into it?

[Allan Schumacher]

as dwarves and elves are the only ones with different beliefs and basic structure different, and it being a staple of fantasy role playing, and having it available, and then not, a player making a character feels very limited as to their distinction and power.

I agree, and I think this is what lends itself to being a much larger task than say, race options in Baldur's Gate.

Letting the player play an elf, but not having the game play or conversations reflect that, would be pretty hollow (and I think it'd get us mountains of criticism).

[Sable Rhapsody]

EDIT: NVM, ninja'ed by Alan 

Modifié par Sable Rhapsody, 27 juin 2013 - 09:38 .

[Allan Schumacher]

Background only give little differences in perspective. I give an example, Dwarf Commoner vs Dwarf Noble origin in DA:O. Both still Dwarves and both bound to Dwarf tradition. Dwarf Commoner may want to support Bhelen, Dwarf Noble may want to support Harrowmont but Bhelen is his/her brother so he/she may want to support Bhelen in sense to maintain family value Aeducan blood on the throne. Still, both origin are from the same race only different background and they both bound to the same belief and same culture. But both Dwarf origins have different value than any other races outside Orzamar

Part of the reason why they aren't too different is because making them too different creates a combinatorial explosion and increases the difficulty in terms of scope and whatnot. The fact that many dwarf lines are the same regardless of Commoner/Noble is a cost-saving mechanism.

[o Ventus]

I gotta say, I like Allan's posts in this thread.

No, I mean that legitimately. Go Allan.

[fchopin]

panamakira wrote...

Edited to stay in topic.

Back to OP's question: I really hope not. Humans are ok but can feel a little boring when you could try other races. I would love to play a game from an elf's perspective. Maybe where they can somehow improve things for other elves. I enjoyed the City Elf Origin a lot since it put the character in a difficult situation to live and eventually persevere but not really improve the situation for other elves. 

I would also love to play a city elf trying to help the elf races to become more equal and not a third class citizen.
That is one of the big problems of Dragon Age games, in DAO it does not matter what race you are as after each of the origins you become a warden and have only one goal in life so you can not try to help your people.
 
In DA2 Hawke does not care about anyone but himself and family, Hawke kills people for money and does not care if elves are slaves or not, Hawke does not fight for equality for all but for money and power. Nothing wrong with that but that is all Hawke does.
I do not think there will be any improvements in DA3 as humans will get all the trophies and other races will be around just for fun.
 
I would love to play an elf to fight for freedom and not just be raped by anyone with power, both male and female elves are raped and there is not one person to pick up a sword and fight.