426 réponses à ce sujet

[Teddie Sage]

PinkShoes wrote...

Im sorry, im black. I didnt know i live my life differently to other people.

Some people just don't think clearly without thinking, which often leads to people thinking they're racists while they're just lacking tact. But yeah, I'm a gay white male and I don't feel any different then straight caucasians. Our organs are pretty much all the same, except we're all variated.

[Felya87]

I hope the trand "human are special" will end. it made sense in ME (at least it was in ME2, and could be a cute thing to see developed. but nooooo!!! organicVS sintetic is beeeeeeeest! >_> W the originality) but in DA is boring and unsatisfating. at least from my point of view, since I never liked the "most prominent race" thing.
and in a fantasy setting I hate being stuck with a human character if in the setting there are Elf and Dwarf (and kossith) everywhere!!!

Modifié par Felya87, 23 juin 2013 - 05:00 .

[KR4U55]

If we ever go Gray Warden again, than yeah, why not? I don't think the voiced protagonist limits that, a cool voice would go in any race (except qunari and doubdly dwarf).

[Silfren]

PinkShoes wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

PinkShoes wrote...
Because whats the difference between a white and black person?

You seriously need to ask how the lives of black and white people are different? Seriously?

Nothing apart form the colour of their skin. When you play a different race like an elf you got to see what their lives are like, from a roleplay point of view its way more fun to play as a dalish elf because what do we know about them? Humans are so easy to relate to because we are humans thats why when you play a fantsay game its FUN to be something you arent.

The minute I see any elf in any fantasy, I know exactly what they're like. It's not fun, it's boring and it sucks.

What would be fun is a fantasy that doesn't shamelessly rip of Tolkien's work and takes its inspiration from something other than Norse myhtology and Arthurian legend. Or better yet, it could try to create some original creatures to populate its world.

At the very, very least, they could at least call the elves something else.

Im sorry, im black. I didnt know i live my life differently to other people.

Yeah, and if you actually are black, then you probably know exactly what Plaintiff meant by his remark.  There's no need to pretend to be obtuse about it.

[Zombie_Alexis]

I'm hoping that future DA games will bring back race choice. I loved my City Elf! I'm not going to hold my breath, but if choice does come back, I'll be one happy camper!

[PinkShoes]

Silfren wrote...

PinkShoes wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

PinkShoes wrote...
Because whats the difference between a white and black person?

You seriously need to ask how the lives of black and white people are different? Seriously?

Nothing apart form the colour of their skin. When you play a different race like an elf you got to see what their lives are like, from a roleplay point of view its way more fun to play as a dalish elf because what do we know about them? Humans are so easy to relate to because we are humans thats why when you play a fantsay game its FUN to be something you arent.

The minute I see any elf in any fantasy, I know exactly what they're like. It's not fun, it's boring and it sucks.

What would be fun is a fantasy that doesn't shamelessly rip of Tolkien's work and takes its inspiration from something other than Norse myhtology and Arthurian legend. Or better yet, it could try to create some original creatures to populate its world.

At the very, very least, they could at least call the elves something else.

Im sorry, im black. I didnt know i live my life differently to other people.

Yeah, and if you actually are black, then you probably know exactly what Plaintiff meant by his remark.  There's no need to pretend to be obtuse about it.

Yes im black. Also i didnt think he was being racist i thought he was being stupid, i really never have been treated differently because of the colour of my skin (until now actually) just because im black doesnt mean that.

Back to the topic at hand though. I hope we play more than just humans, simply because its fun to even if its as shallow as customising your own character so you have more options on how you look.

[Silfren]

Plaintiff wrote...

Ponendus wrote...
I think its about roleplaying, not about 'function'. I don't know many people expect to have an exclusively elven or dwarven protagonist, that would be silly because the statistics tell us the majority of the playerbase play a human even when they have the option. That doesn't make the option pointless though.

Also quite a few games (particularly MMO's) allow you to customise your skin colour and features to create a character that appears of black, assian or middle easter descent as you suggest. How popular this is, I'm not sure.

I find it fun to play other races in a fantasy setting, mainly because there is often a backstory quite far removed from what we experience as humans in the real world. However, I acknowledge not everybody roleplays that way, or at all really!

My point is that the assertion that elves and dwarves are "more fun" or "more interesting" than humans is pretty narrow-minded. It blatantly ignores the fact that, in both Dragon Age and real life, "humanity" covers many distinct cultures that are just as capable of offering "different perspectives" as Elves and Dwarves are, if not more so.

Elves and dwarves only differ from humans in a purely cosmetic sense. There is no substantial narrative reason for them to exist as species distinct from humanity. The "Dalish" could just as easily be a group of disenfranchised humans who've been reduced to a nomadic lifestyle, Orzammar could just as easily be populated by a culture of isolationist humans who employ a strict class system. Nothing about either of these cultures says that they must be a wholly alien species.

Personally, I find dwarves and elves more boring than humans, because, thanks to laziness and lack of imagination on the part of writers, they're in every single fantasy franchise, and they never differ in any substantial way from the standards laid down by Tolkien and Norse mythology. It has reached the point where I'll immediatly pass over any fantasy that includes elves or dwarves. I only barely tolerate them in Dragon Age, and even then, the elves and dwarves are ridiculously bland and homogenous compared to the many distinct cultures that comprise the supposedly "boring" humans of Thedas.

I strongly suspect that the reason elves and dwarves are seen as "more interesting" is because there is an underlying assumption that "human" means "straight white male".

+1

When you consider that elves and dwarves and all other such races are purely fictitious and that ALL lore surrounding them is ultimately rooted in human culture, there's no reason at all why either the Dalish or their Alienage cousins could not simply be a culturally different group of humans.  Same with the dwarves of Orzammar.  

What makes them interesting is not that they are non-human races, but that the lore and culture surrounding them is interesting.  The same lore that makes them fascinating would not be changed if it referred to humans instead of elves or dwarves.  The problem is simply that we've been conditioned to expect elves and dwarves in this setting. 

All this isn't to say I take issue with the presence of elves and dwarves in fantasy...I don't.  But I absolutely get and agree with Plaintiff's point.  It WOULD be refreshing to see a fantasy like DA deal with disparate human groups rather than making it about humans, elves, and dwarves. 

That said, I can see at least one good reason why Bioware would prefer to explore certain issues using fantasy races as a vehicle rather than human ones...but that's a different topic.

[Peer of the Empire]

Humans rule

[Angrywolves]

Of course we're being deprived of other races lore and culture. Bioware care ? Of course not. It comes down to sales. DAI has to be a success for them. They can't afford to fail.

[Wonderllama4]

There should be TWO options.

A male human and a female elf. I think this would satisfy a lot of people.

(sorry dwarf fans)

[JerZey CJ]

Devs have said that you WILL be able to play as all four races in a future DA, though it may not be DA4.

[JerZey CJ]

WittingEight65 wrote...

You guys asked for a voiced protagonist.

Voiced protagonist = One race. And the majority of the gamers will always prefer to play as a Human than any other race. So, human it is.

Deal with it.

...Who the hell asked for that? Because it certaintly wasn't me.

[Silfren]

JerZeyCJ2 wrote...

WittingEight65 wrote...

You guys asked for a voiced protagonist.

Voiced protagonist = One race. And the majority of the gamers will always prefer to play as a Human than any other race. So, human it is.

Deal with it.

...Who the hell asked for that? Because it certaintly wasn't me.

It's also not true.  Bioware didn't go with the Voice Protagonist because we "asked" for it, and also there is zero reason why having a Voiced PC should limited race options.

[Nefla]

Well, humans pretty much ARE portrayed as the straight white male upper middle to upper class. Also we have been shown the cultures and religions of elves and dwarves which I find interesting and have been shown almost nothing differentiating the different human cultures of thedas. In a game I don't want to play as someone privelaged, I want to play the underdog and I want to struggle for everything I get, including respect. I want to earn it myself. DA2 kind of tried to do this but failed hard.

[Sir George Parr]

JerZeyCJ2 wrote...

Devs have said that you WILL be able to play as all four races in a future DA, though it may not be DA4.

Do you have a link for that?. As all i remember reading was that the other races aren't ruled out for future installments. But nothing as definite as 'WILL'. On topic don't mind if it happens to be the case. While i would play as a dalish elf, i would routinely play human characters more often. So if race selection never returns i won't be losing any sleep over it.

Modifié par XM-417, 24 juin 2013 - 09:35 .

[Angrywolves]

A possibility not a certainty.

[duckley]

I almost always play as a human - have played an elf too... am happy to continmue to play as a human - no biggie for me!

[Celtic Latino]

Ser Bard wrote...

IMO yes, other races will only be available in multiplayer.

Unfortuantely that seems to be the general way things are going. 

I really hope for the return of race selection in the Dragon Age series SINGLE PLAYER story and for that to be a possibility in Mass Effect 4, provided they continue the single player campaign and not turn it into some MMO. 

[Adela]

Plaintiff wrote...


My point is that the assertion that elves and dwarves are "more fun" or "more interesting" than humans is pretty narrow-minded. It blatantly ignores the fact that, in both Dragon Age and real life, "humanity" covers many distinct cultures that are just as capable of offering "different perspectives" as Elves and Dwarves are, if not more so.

Elves and dwarves only differ from humans in a purely cosmetic sense. There is no substantial narrative reason for them to exist as species distinct from humanity. The "Dalish" could just as easily be a group of disenfranchised humans who've been reduced to a nomadic lifestyle, Orzammar could just as easily be populated by a culture of isolationist humans who employ a strict class system. Nothing about either of these cultures says that they must be a wholly alien species.

Personally, I find dwarves and elves more boring than humans, because, thanks to laziness and lack of imagination on the part of writers, they're in every single fantasy franchise, and they never differ in any substantial way from the standards laid down by Tolkien and Norse mythology. It has reached the point where I'll immediatly pass over any fantasy that includes elves or dwarves. I only barely tolerate them in Dragon Age, and even then, the elves and dwarves are ridiculously bland and homogenous compared to the many distinct cultures that comprise the supposedly "boring" humans of Thedas.

I strongly suspect that the reason elves and dwarves are seen as "more interesting" is because there is an underlying assumption that "human" means "straight white male".

i agree with this 100%

Modifié par ag99, 23 juin 2013 - 06:43 .

[TygerHeart]

Neverwinter Nights, swan song of alternate races. Trimmed back to Human/Elf/Dwarf. KotOR, ME, DA ... all human now.

[Ziggeh]

Plaintiff wrote...
I strongly suspect that the reason elves and dwarves are seen as "more interesting" is because there is an underlying assumption that "human" means "straight white male".

It's because it's easier.

Contrary to what we might intuitively assume imagination works better within contraints than without. Humans are seen as bland because (by and large) you are responsible for building them from the ground up, while elves and dwarves come with a set of assumed characteristics. They act as hooks, openings into what a character might be like -  a structure and distinction to build around, rathern than have to build (mostly) by yourself.

It's the same reason people use stereotypes. They convey a lot of information with little effort. It's not "bad" or lazy or anything, it's just another tool in the writers box.

Modifié par Ziggeh, 23 juin 2013 - 07:01 .

[In Exile]

Nefla wrote...
Well, humans pretty much ARE portrayed as the straight white male upper middle to upper class.  

Well, everyone is white in fantasy. The dwarves and elves too.

Also we have been shown the cultures and religions of elves and dwarves which I find interesting and have been shown almost nothing differentiating the different human cultures of thedas.

Explain to me how Ferelden is identical to Antiva. 

In a game I don't want to play as someone privelaged, I want to play the underdog and I want to struggle for everything I get, including respect. I want to earn it myself. DA2 kind of tried to do this but failed hard.

Bioware's never made a game like this. DA:O and ME, for example, give you respect on a silver platter at the start of the game. Hell, DA:O is about being so amazing that you're actually sought out to be given privlege and respect on a silver platter (I think the only arguable exception is the Dalish origin). 

[Plaintiff]

PinkShoes wrote...
Im sorry, im black. I didnt know i live my life differently to other people.

That's not at all what I said.

If you're black, then you must be aware that minorities suffer from sociopolitical pressures that the straight white majority do not.

If you personally haven't been treated differently, then that's great to hear, but there's no way you could possibly be unaware of the racism that continues to underpin Western society. 

Teddie Sage wrote...
Some people just don't think clearly without thinking, which often leads to people thinking they're racists while they're just lacking tact. But yeah, I'm a gay white male and I don't feel any different then straight caucasians. Our organs are pretty much all the same, except we're all variated. 

Certainly gays are just as likely as straight people to use ridiculous strawman arguments.

The life of a gay man differs from the life of a straight man in a number of very obvious ways. Just for starters, gay men do not have all the same rights as straight men. That is just a fact.

I never said that minorities are different, I said that they are treated differently.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 23 juin 2013 - 07:08 .

[Silfren]

Ziggeh wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...
I strongly suspect that the reason elves and dwarves are seen as "more interesting" is because there is an underlying assumption that "human" means "straight white male".

It's because it's easier.

Contrary to what we might intuitively assume imagination works better within contraints than without. Humans are seen as bland because (by and large) you are responsible for building them from the ground up, while elves and dwarves come with a set of assumed characteristics. They act as hooks, openings into what a character might be like -  a structure and distinction to build around, rathern than have to build (mostly) by yourself.

It's the same reason people use stereotypes. They convey a lot of information with little effort. It's not "bad" or lazy or anything, it's just another tool in the writers box.

On the contrary, people who rely on stereotypes actually do do so out of pure laziness, and it is bad.  Yes, it is a tool in the writer's toolkit, but that doesn't make it a good one, as you're trying to claim.

Personally, my favorite writers are those that actually try to develop their characters rather than relying on lazy-a*s stereotyping.  Using stereotypes tells me that a writer isn't interested in trying to make their characters believable or sympathetic, but that they'd rather settle for caricatures than put in the effort to make genuine characters.