426 réponses à ce sujet

[Ziggeh]

Silfren wrote...

On the contrary, people who rely on stereotypes actually do do so out of pure laziness, and it is bad.  Yes, it is a tool in the writer's toolkit, but that doesn't make it a good one, as you're trying to claim.

Personally, my favorite writers are those that actually try to develop their characters rather than relying on lazy-a*s stereotyping.  Using stereotypes tells me that a writer isn't interested in trying to make their characters believable or sympathetic, but that they'd rather settle for caricatures than put in the effort to make genuine characters.

You use stereotypes to convey a lot of information quickly. They are often used badly, in place of actual characterisation, but that doesn't mean they don't have value when used appropriately.  Look at the minor characters in any piece of fiction, those for whom it does not have time to explore. If they are not using stereotypes to one extent or another, they would largely be faceless.

[Boycott Bioware]

Plaintiff wrote...

I strongly suspect that the reason elves and dwarves are seen as "more interesting" is because there is an underlying assumption that "human" means "straight white male".

Human is white in games is similar to human is white in movies, usually movies that involve intergalactic relationship with aliens, the Earth represented by white, and in some movies the blacks and Asians play the role of aliens

In DA:O, Sten is black, and Sten is not human. I mean black as black, not dark skinned/colored, i am colored but i am not black. In DA2 although the Qunari are not black like Sten, but they are colored

The culture and religion of Elves, Dwarves and any non-human in fantasy games and movies are mostly rip off from non-white cultures and religion. Although Dwarves are stereotypically Scandinavian but in modern set up add Hindu,Jewish many other influence such as in DA where caste system being introduced like Hindu. Golems only exist in Jewish tradition.

Similar with Elves, most Elves today are mix of Hindu and Jewish, in Warcraft 3 the Elves even say Hindu words such as "vishnu-poorah!", "hindu-reva!" and many others. Original Elves are mostly speaking Hebrew. Elves also being shown as proud race, they feel being better than human, "illuminated people", this is like Jew vs Gentiles/Goyims sentiment. Mr Spok, the Star Trek Space Elf are obviously Jews with that Jewish hand sign when meeting each other. In DA2, Keeper Merethari speak and look like Indian woman, even the name "Merethari' is Indian name.

The non-human in fantasy/aliens stories are actually representing certain real life races and religions. The writers and story tellers are human, how come want to create something out of the box? It is impossible.

The Qunari is "Militant Islamic Borg", meaning the Qunari is "Militant Islamic Borg"

[mikeymoonshine]

Plaintiff wrote...

Ponendus wrote...
I think its about roleplaying, not about 'function'. I don't know many people expect to have an exclusively elven or dwarven protagonist, that would be silly because the statistics tell us the majority of the playerbase play a human even when they have the option. That doesn't make the option pointless though.

Also quite a few games (particularly MMO's) allow you to customise your skin colour and features to create a character that appears of black, assian or middle easter descent as you suggest. How popular this is, I'm not sure.

I find it fun to play other races in a fantasy setting, mainly because there is often a backstory quite far removed from what we experience as humans in the real world. However, I acknowledge not everybody roleplays that way, or at all really!

My point is that the assertion that elves and dwarves are "more fun" or "more interesting" than humans is pretty narrow-minded. It blatantly ignores the fact that, in both Dragon Age and real life, "humanity" covers many distinct cultures that are just as capable of offering "different perspectives" as Elves and Dwarves are, if not more so.

Elves and dwarves only differ from humans in a purely cosmetic sense. There is no substantial narrative reason for them to exist as species distinct from humanity. The "Dalish" could just as easily be a group of disenfranchised humans who've been reduced to a nomadic lifestyle, Orzammar could just as easily be populated by a culture of isolationist humans who employ a strict class system. Nothing about either of these cultures says that they must be a wholly alien species.

Personally, I find dwarves and elves more boring than humans, because, thanks to laziness and lack of imagination on the part of writers, they're in every single fantasy franchise, and they never differ in any substantial way from the standards laid down by Tolkien and Norse mythology. It has reached the point where I'll immediatly pass over any fantasy that includes elves or dwarves. I only barely tolerate them in Dragon Age, and even then, the elves and dwarves are ridiculously bland and homogenous compared to the many distinct cultures that comprise the supposedly "boring" humans of Thedas.

I strongly suspect that the reason elves and dwarves are seen as "more interesting" is because there is an underlying assumption that "human" means "straight white male".

LOL seriously? 

That's quite an assumption.
 First I would like to say Elves and dwarves are used in fantasy roleplaying games and fantasy novels because they are an easy and popular template to start with. Tolkein did not invent them he just made them into more of a thing (if that makes sense). 

Sure it's cool when games come out with interesting, new and origional races in them but they aren't as easy to come up with as you might think and they generally just get compared with something else anyway. 100% origionality is difficult and there is still value in that wich is not completely origional ect ect. 

Playable races is popular in roleplaying because it can lead to greater roleplaying (for some people). Your point about how "they could all just be humans" is true but irrelevent. The cosmetic differences play a bigger role than you think also, People roleplay so they can pretend to be someone or create a character who is different. This is how fantasy works, what is more different than something that doesn't look like a human? that thinks in a different way lives in a different way? 

Interestingly enough there are limits to how different a character can be before they become too difficult to relate to? Cosmetically players generally wan't their character  to look either awesome or pretty and sometimes both. 

Something that is truely alien is not something we himans could really write about or comprehend that well so you are not going to see many fantasy races in games that are not based on human ideas, values, history and mytholagy. 

Humans are just a bit to farmiliar for some gamers who want to try something different. 

[PlasmaCheese]

I hope not. Jeez, I just want big, pointy ears as an option in the CC. I don't give a damn if no one ever has dialogue that calls me a knife-eared freak. I know that I'm a knife-eared freak.

[dragondreamer]

Honestly? As a minority, I do find the elves easier to relate to than the human nobility characters that are the alternative. The city elves in particular ring true to my ethnic history a LOT. But that aside, it's a role-playing game. It's understandable that some of us would still want to play different races in a fantasy game where we've already been presented with several choices before. It's like being given a choice between several different flavors of ice cream, then suddenly told you can only have vanilla forever.

I can understand money and resources being a reason for excluding choices. But the idea that in a fantasy world with multiple races, we should only play the dominant race; that just rubs me the wrong way. You can dislike elves or dwarves, but that's besides the point. It's already established that there are elves and dwarves in Thedas. Some of us like them. I'm certainly hoping the player race choice comes back at some point.

[Ziggeh]

mikeymoonshine wrote...

Sure it's cool when games come out with interesting, new and origional races in them but they aren't as easy to come up with as you might think and they generally just get compared with something else anyway. 100% origionality is difficult and there is still value in that wich is not completely origional ect ect.

Yeah, it's a bit fiddly really. "Races" in sci fi and fantasy tend to have a set of defined human characteristics - noble savage for klingon, cold and intellegent for vulcan - usually because something is being said about those traits in the theme. Now you can come up with new ones (I really like the qunari as it's such an alien mindset), but generally you're going to land on "elves in a different hat" or "tall dwarves with horns on", so you may as well use the tried and tested.

[Rawgrim]

Filament wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

I strongly suspect that the reason elves and dwarves are seen as "more interesting" is because there is an underlying assumption that "human" means "straight white male".

That is an assumption in these fantasy games, but I'm not sure if it's necessarily incorrect. Fantasy races' interactions with humans do seem to be used as a stand-in for real life race relations between other races and white people (at least with the standard medieval europe fantasy). Yes the implications are ugly at times.

DA does a slight better than others in that regard by having all the different human nations have distinct cultures instead of just being homogenous as a contrast to homogenous elves and dwarves. Though they're all "European" human nations still, except Rivain.

Elves and dwarves aren't necessarily homogenous in DA either, for that matter. Which is nice. (City vs Dalish, Surfacer vs Orzammar (Duster vs Noble), Legion of the Dead, HOPEFULLY Kal-Sharok)

Actually, most fantasy settings has alot of different human cultures. Some have alot of different elf and dwarf cultures too.

[Nefla]

In Exile wrote...

We know so little of The human cultures, how can they really be seen as different when all we pretty much know is:
Antiva: has assassins and people are more ****ty?
Orlais: everyone is a super campy drag-queen esque silly person?
Rivain: people are dark, we aren't shown anything about their culture
Ferelden/free marches: the same as each other, the default fantasy human culture
Tevinter: everyone is an evil, slaving, blood mage?
Nevarra: had dragon hunters? (Though I don't think this ever comes up outside codex entries)
Anderfels: people are stoic, possibly bearded, and can drink a lot?

Most of what we know about any of these countries comes from codex entries an even that is scarce. if it's not worked into the world and the plot or the dialogue then it may as well not exist. The two human countries we actually spent time in, Ferelden and the Free Marches were bland and expected, only the elven and dwarven cultures were different and fascinating to me. I liked that they turned the typical elf and dwarf tropes on their heads and I loved all the unique details.i am typing this on my phone and can no longer see what I'm writing so I'll try to make a clearer response later but basically it's not the look it's the differing cultures and beliefs. If the human societies were well fleshed out and we could be from a more interesting society than Ferelden or the Free Marches I would enjoy playing that.

[In Exile]

Nefla wrote...

We know so little of The human cultures, how can they really be seen as different when all we pretty much know is:
Antiva: has assassins and people are more ****ty?
Orlais: everyone is a super campy drag-queen esque silly person?
Rivain: people are dark, we aren't shown anything about their culture
Ferelden/free marches: the same as each other, the default fantasy human culture
Tevinter: everyone is an evil, slaving, blood mage?
Nevarra: had dragon hunters? (Though I don't think this ever comes up outside codex entries)
Anderfels: people are stoic, possibly bearded, and can drink a lot?

We know a lot more than that. I mean, I can't get around to be a human codex about DA so I'd just refer you to the DA wiki on each nation, but they're as different from each other as Orzammar is from Ferelden. 

I mean, I could reduce the dwarves to short humans living in caves and worshiping their ancestors, but that doesn't do their culture justice. Or Sten's lovely "the elves are a lithe, pointy eared people who excell at poverty". 

I liked that they turned the typical elf and dwarf tropes on their heads and I loved all the unique details.i am typing this on my phone and can no longer see what I'm writing so I'll try to make a clearer response later but basically it's not the look it's the differing cultures and beliefs. If the human societies were well fleshed out and we could be from a more interesting society than Ferelden or the Free Marches I would enjoy playing that.

If you want a game that does that part well, I'd recommend the Witcher. 

[Silfren]

Qistina wrote...
Similar with Elves, most Elves today are mix of Hindu and Jewish, in Warcraft 3 the Elves even say Hindu words such as "vishnu-poorah!", "hindu-reva!" and many others. Original Elves are mostly speaking Hebrew. Elves also being shown as proud race, they feel being better than human, "illuminated people", this is like Jew vs Gentiles/Goyims sentiment. Mr Spok, the Star Trek Space Elf are obviously Jews with that Jewish hand sign when meeting each other. In DA2, Keeper Merethari speak and look like Indian woman, even the name "Merethari' is Indian name.

No.  Nonononononononononono.  Mr. Spock is not a Space Elf, he is a Pointy-Eared Hobgoblin.

Know your lore! 

[Dragoonlordz]

Mike Laidlaw I recall said he has no problem using other races as protagonist in the future if the story allows for it or is designed around it but I wouldn't get hopes up human is the easy option from a writing and association perspective so it's the one I foresee them sticking with from here on out unfortunately.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 23 juin 2013 - 10:56 .

[Nefla]

In Exile wrote...

Nefla wrote...

We know so little of The human cultures, how can they really be seen as different when all we pretty much know is:
Antiva: has assassins and people are more ****ty?
Orlais: everyone is a super campy drag-queen esque silly person?
Rivain: people are dark, we aren't shown anything about their culture
Ferelden/free marches: the same as each other, the default fantasy human culture
Tevinter: everyone is an evil, slaving, blood mage?
Nevarra: had dragon hunters? (Though I don't think this ever comes up outside codex entries)
Anderfels: people are stoic, possibly bearded, and can drink a lot?

We know a lot more than that. I mean, I can't get around to be a human codex about DA so I'd just refer you to the DA wiki on each nation, but they're as different from each other as Orzammar is from Ferelden. 

I mean, I could reduce the dwarves to short humans living in caves and worshiping their ancestors, but that doesn't do their culture justice. Or Sten's lovely "the elves are a lithe, pointy eared people who excell at poverty". 

I liked that they turned the typical elf and dwarf tropes on their heads and I loved all the unique details.i am typing this on my phone and can no longer see what I'm writing so I'll try to make a clearer response later but basically it's not the look it's the differing cultures and beliefs. If the human societies were well fleshed out and we could be from a more interesting society than Ferelden or the Free Marches I would enjoy playing that.

If you want a game that does that part well, I'd recommend the Witcher. 

Oh I know they tell us a little more about each country, but that is only in the codex. We have not been shown anything in-game. Just like in DA2 elven culture, oppression, poverty, etc...was not shown but supposedly it existed in Kirkwall. The alienage is nice, clean, and even partly open to the ocean, the only time you ever see elves supposedly oppressed is with Kelder not having been brought to justice but even that was because he was the magistrate's son and not because his victims were elves. In DA:O the alienage was built out of bits of garbage, everyone lived in shacks, they could be raped or sold into slavery and no one did anything about it. Elves were regularly mistreated and disrespected, it was in the game, not in a codex entry. In DA2 you're just kind of like "yeah, sure you're downtrodden, you live in a better house than I do you whiney jerks!"

If they want something to work, if they want it to be interesting, they need to "show, not tell." You can't just have a footnote (that many people may not even read) saying "everyone from Nevarra is gay due to their religions beliefs and wears a ceremonial hat, children are exclusively adopted from other countries or freed from slavery" and then have the only character you ever meet from Nevarra not be gay, not wear a hat, give birth to children instead of adopt, and act like every other Ferelden/Free Marcher, and never talk about Nevarra or it's culture. I can't believe anything that codex entry says if nothing mentioned is ever shown or experienced.

I have played TW2, is the first one better? The only non-human in the second one that was memorable to me was Iorveth even though I went the non-human route.

[Silfren]

Nefla wrote...

In Exile wrote...

Nefla wrote...

We know so little of The human cultures, how can they really be seen as different when all we pretty much know is:
Antiva: has assassins and people are more ****ty?
Orlais: everyone is a super campy drag-queen esque silly person?
Rivain: people are dark, we aren't shown anything about their culture
Ferelden/free marches: the same as each other, the default fantasy human culture
Tevinter: everyone is an evil, slaving, blood mage?
Nevarra: had dragon hunters? (Though I don't think this ever comes up outside codex entries)
Anderfels: people are stoic, possibly bearded, and can drink a lot?

We know a lot more than that. I mean, I can't get around to be a human codex about DA so I'd just refer you to the DA wiki on each nation, but they're as different from each other as Orzammar is from Ferelden. 

I mean, I could reduce the dwarves to short humans living in caves and worshiping their ancestors, but that doesn't do their culture justice. Or Sten's lovely "the elves are a lithe, pointy eared people who excell at poverty". 

I liked that they turned the typical elf and dwarf tropes on their heads and I loved all the unique details.i am typing this on my phone and can no longer see what I'm writing so I'll try to make a clearer response later but basically it's not the look it's the differing cultures and beliefs. If the human societies were well fleshed out and we could be from a more interesting society than Ferelden or the Free Marches I would enjoy playing that.

If you want a game that does that part well, I'd recommend the Witcher. 

Oh I know they tell us a little more about each country, but that is only in the codex. We have not been shown anything in-game. Just like in DA2 elven culture, oppression, poverty, etc...was not shown but supposedly it existed in Kirkwall. The alienage is nice, clean, and even partly open to the ocean, the only time you ever see elves supposedly oppressed is with Kelder not having been brought to justice but even that was because he was the magistrate's son and not because his victims were elves. In DA:O the alienage was built out of bits of garbage, everyone lived in shacks, they could be raped or sold into slavery and no one did anything about it. Elves were regularly mistreated and disrespected, it was in the game, not in a codex entry. In DA2 you're just kind of like "yeah, sure you're downtrodden, you live in a better house than I do you whiney jerks!"

If they want something to work, if they want it to be interesting, they need to "show, not tell." You can't just have a footnote (that many people may not even read) saying "everyone from Nevarra is gay due to their religions beliefs and wears a ceremonial hat, children are exclusively adopted from other countries or freed from slavery" and then have the only character you ever meet from Nevarra not be gay, not wear a hat, give birth to children instead of adopt, and act like every other Ferelden/Free Marcher, and never talk about Nevarra or it's culture. I can't believe anything that codex entry says if nothing mentioned is ever shown or experienced.

I have played TW2, is the first one better? The only non-human in the second one that was memorable to me was Iorveth even though I went the non-human route.

Slight nitpick:  The Magistrate's son DID get off easy because his victims were elves...it wasn't just because of who his father was.  He'd probably have also gotten away with victimizing the children of Darktown residents.  If that had been happening to the children of Hightown citizens, his being a Magistrate wouldn't have mattered.  So yeah, the powerlessness of his elven victims had everything to do with the fact that he was able to get away with his crimes. 

Beyond that, I agree with you.  I'm happy for the detailed info provided by codices, but damnit, the story we see played out in game really should reflect what the codices want us to believe.

[Angrywolves]

It will come down to money. One male va. One female va. Forget what Laidlaw says now. It won't hold up in the future imo.

[K_Tabris]

WittingEight65 wrote...

You guys asked for a voiced protagonist.

Voiced protagonist = One race. And the majority of the gamers will always prefer to play as a Human than any other race. So, human it is.

Deal with it.

Yes.

The sooner people realize this, the sooner we can have playable races back.  Not happy with this feature at all. I didn't mind it for Hawke, but I'd rather that have been a one time deal, not the future of all Dragon Age games.

[Silfren]

KallianaTabris wrote...

WittingEight65 wrote...

You guys asked for a voiced protagonist.

Voiced protagonist = One race. And the majority of the gamers will always prefer to play as a Human than any other race. So, human it is.

Deal with it.

Yes.

The sooner people realize this, the sooner we can have playable races back.  Not happy with this feature at all. I didn't mind it for Hawke, but I'd rather that have been a one time deal, not the future of all Dragon Age games.

And maybe "you people" should stop trying to find other fans to blame for this feature you don't like and perhaps consider taking Bioware devs at their own word instead of looking for reasons other than those given.  It's not necessarily about money.

[Melca36]

Silfren wrote...

KallianaTabris wrote...

WittingEight65 wrote...

You guys asked for a voiced protagonist.

Voiced protagonist = One race. And the majority of the gamers will always prefer to play as a Human than any other race. So, human it is.

Deal with it.

Yes.

The sooner people realize this, the sooner we can have playable races back.  Not happy with this feature at all. I didn't mind it for Hawke, but I'd rather that have been a one time deal, not the future of all Dragon Age games.

And maybe "you people" should stop trying to find other fans to blame for this feature you don't like and perhaps consider taking Bioware devs at their own word instead of looking for reasons other than those given.  It's not necessarily about money.

This! So tired of people harping on this and the I am a human in real life BS excuse people spout. Every Origin had their good point and bad points. I enjoyed ALL of the Origins but a small percentage played elves and dwarves.  And if they do bring back Origins hopefully they will include Qunari because dwarves and elves are overused in most fantasy games anyway

[Rawgrim]

Melca36 wrote...

Silfren wrote...

KallianaTabris wrote...

WittingEight65 wrote...

You guys asked for a voiced protagonist.

Voiced protagonist = One race. And the majority of the gamers will always prefer to play as a Human than any other race. So, human it is.

Deal with it.

Yes.

The sooner people realize this, the sooner we can have playable races back.  Not happy with this feature at all. I didn't mind it for Hawke, but I'd rather that have been a one time deal, not the future of all Dragon Age games.

And maybe "you people" should stop trying to find other fans to blame for this feature you don't like and perhaps consider taking Bioware devs at their own word instead of looking for reasons other than those given.  It's not necessarily about money.

This! So tired of people harping on this and the I am a human in real life BS excuse people spout. Every Origin had their good point and bad points. I enjoyed ALL of the Origins but a small percentage played elves and dwarves.  And if they do bring back Origins hopefully they will include Qunari because dwarves and elves are overused in most fantasy games anyway

Humans are more overused that dwarves or elves though.

[The Night Haunter]

I believe the possibility exists that a future DA game will focus more on the 'Elven Plight' and maybe then we will get either a choice or a forced elf main character. However, it is more likely that all DA games will be either human only or DAO style choices, and the choices obviously cost extra and so will occur barely ever, if at all.,

[ThisIsZad]

Silfren wrote...

Qistina wrote...
Similar with Elves, most Elves today are mix of Hindu and Jewish, in Warcraft 3 the Elves even say Hindu words such as "vishnu-poorah!", "hindu-reva!" and many others. Original Elves are mostly speaking Hebrew. Elves also being shown as proud race, they feel being better than human, "illuminated people", this is like Jew vs Gentiles/Goyims sentiment. Mr Spok, the Star Trek Space Elf are obviously Jews with that Jewish hand sign when meeting each other. In DA2, Keeper Merethari speak and look like Indian woman, even the name "Merethari' is Indian name.

No.  Nonononononononononono.  Mr. Spock is not a Space Elf, he is a Pointy-Eared Hobgoblin.

Know your lore! 

SPACE ELF 

[TheButterflyEffect]

Elves in this universe stink. Like a pile of freshly vomited fish.

A game for a dwarf character would rock my socks. I want to be a dwarfy prince/princess again. mmmm.

[Plaintiff]

Rawgrim wrote...
Humans are more overused that dwarves or elves though.

But they are nowhere near as bland and homogenous as dwarves or elves.

"Oh wow, you live underground and you forge weapons? What a completely unexpected twist!"

[Rawgrim]

Plaintiff wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...
Humans are more overused that dwarves or elves though.

But they are nowhere near as bland and homogenous as dwarves or elves.

"Oh wow, you live underground and you forge weapons? What a completely unexpected twist!"

Well. The Forgotten Realms setting, wich the BG series, and the neverwinter series, is set in, has Sun Elves, Wood Elves, Drow Elves, Moon Elves, and a few more. All of them are different. The dwarves still mine and mostly live underground though, but some of the different sub-races do have different cultures.

You have to remember, though, that dwarves and elves are basically mythological creatures. Same as dragons and griffins and whatsnot, and those too behave in very stereotypical ways. I think this might be the reason why alot of dwarves and elves are presented in stereotypical ways.

I see where you are coming from, though. Elves and dwarves are getting old and used up.

[nisallik]

IceHawk-181 wrote...

Ziggeh wrote...

IceHawk-181 wrote...

Also, we will never see a set-non Human PC and likely will not be allowed to choose a race because that would require a writing staff willing to accept the concept that the Main Characters are not their characters but ours.

They are, necessarily, a collaborative effort.

Theoretically, they should be.
 
A quality PC should enjoy considerable freedom within the defined limits of the story, but the freedom within those restrictions should be meaningful.  I personally argue that in the end both Hawke and Shepard were given merely the illusion of freedom and that all of the SWTOR PCs are pre-determined characters.
 
Which does not bode well for my enjoyment for future entries in either series.

Just wanted to note that the Imperial Agent class in SWTOR had several real choices and several endings.  I've played 7 of the classes to the end and the Imperial Agent class story blew me away... one of the endings was so awesome!  Though you will not get a chance to see it if you hammer in Dark side choices as most people would do since you are part of the Empire.

[Enigmatick]

Rawgrim wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...
Humans are more overused that dwarves or elves though.

But they are nowhere near as bland and homogenous as dwarves or elves.

"Oh wow, you live underground and you forge weapons? What a completely unexpected twist!"

Well. The Forgotten Realms setting, wich the BG series, and the neverwinter series, is set in, has Sun Elves, Wood Elves, Drow Elves, Moon Elves, and a few more. All of them are different. The dwarves still mine and mostly live underground though, but some of the different sub-races do have different cultures.

You have to remember, though, that dwarves and elves are basically mythological creatures. Same as dragons and griffins and whatsnot, and those too behave in very stereotypical ways. I think this might be the reason why alot of dwarves and elves are presented in stereotypical ways.

I see where you are coming from, though. Elves and dwarves are getting old and used up.

It's worth noting that Dwarves actually consider themselves superior to the other two races in every way and don't say so to keep good relations to both. They also created the English language that everyone speaks in Dragon Age, most dwarves don't contribute to global fantasy society like that.

Modifié par Enigmatick, 24 juin 2013 - 07:22 .