426 réponses à ce sujet

[AstraDrakkar]

Sadly, I fear this is the future of DA games. I dearly hope I am wrong.

[K_Tabris]

Silfren wrote...


And maybe "you people" should stop trying to find other fans to blame for this feature you don't like and perhaps consider taking Bioware devs at their own word instead of looking for reasons other than those given.  It's not necessarily about money.

It's a business, first and foremost, so yes, it is about the money. One of the main reasons cited as to why there is only a human protagonist is the issue of resources=money=time, etc.

I'm not looking for reasons that aren't there. It's just a fact that a voiced protagonist is going to take up resources. For the preferences of some, they'd rather that those resources be spent making other playable races available.

Modifié par KallianaTabris, 24 juin 2013 - 08:35 .

[Mykel54]

The issue here, as i see it, is that with a voiced protagonist, plus interactive cinematics (remember the warden never articulated or spoke, the camera was almost always on the back, without moving) where the protagonist speaks and has facial expressions, it woul be very expensive to have several races playable. So we end up with a predefined race for the protagonist.

The next question is: will the predefined protagonist always be human? It could certainly be an elf, dwarf or qunari, there are no technical reasons that would impede this. However, and this is what i was trying to say with my last post, bioware needs to create a protagonist that appeals to the widest number of potential players as possible.

The dwarf/elf/qunari character has the problem of being a bad marketing tool. We established before that bioware cannot afford to include more than one race if they´re going with the hawke/shepard cinematic and voiced model. Even games like Skyrim, with a lot of races playable, use the human (white and male too) for their marketing campaign.

The game needs a face that people can identify with, and until dwarf/elf/qunari characters are cool enough (read: beautiful, charismatic, badass, etc.) that people don´t mind beinf forced to play as one, we will only see more humans.

[Ziggeh]

KallianaTabris wrote...

I'm not looking for reasons that aren't there. It's just a fact that a voiced protagonist is going to take up resources. For the preferences of some, they'd rather that those resources be spent making other playable races available.

Not all resources are equal though. Saving money on voice actors won't directly translate into art assets, animation, cinematics etc. Indeed, further complicating things, can we say for certain that the marketing potential of a voiced protagonist doesn't allow them to negotiate a larger budget and thus actually increase such resources?

[Rixatrix]

Maybe if the game sells well, they'll open up protagonist options in DA:4.

[Sable Rhapsody]

BlueMoonSeraphim wrote...

Maybe if the game sells well, they'll open up protagonist options in DA:4.

I think it'll be less about how much money the game makes, and more about whether spending the additional resources for more protagonist races makes sense for that particular game.

DA:O actually had quite a lot of variance based on origin story, IMO particularly for the Human Noble, the dwarven noble, and the mages.  It was little stuff (with the exception of marrying Alistair), but what you could and couldn't do in the game did sometimes hinge on what origin you were, and you revisited a lot of those origin story locales.  With DA2...it didn't matter what you were before.  You were the Champion of Kirkwall.  And that's a role that makes much more sense for a human character than any other race.

[GipsyDangeresque]

I don't see why they'll have any problem making only Dwarves playable in Dragon Age 4.

Or only Elves, if Dragon Age 4 were to perhaps focus on a newly sparked City Elf rebellion/the Dalish invading and making a land grab on a nation weakened by the events of Inquisition.

[AstraDrakkar]

The problem is some people wouldn't be interested in playing a dwarf (myself included). I would play as an elf , however.

Modifié par AstraDrakkar, 24 juin 2013 - 09:27 .

[Boycott Bioware]

The dwarf/elf/qunari character has the problem of being a bad marketing tool. We established before that bioware cannot afford to include more than one race if they´re going with the hawke/shepard cinematic and voiced model. Even games like Skyrim, with a lot of races playable, use the human (white and male too) for their marketing campaign.

True, but Skyrim take place at, well, Skyrim, the place where Nords come from. That male white guy is a Nord. It is make sense having that guy shouting Fus Ro Dah than an Argonian in the trailer. But still Bethesda didn't throw away all other races just because TES 5 is at Skyrim. All races can become Dragonborn of Skyrim, the Ysmir. The ability to understand ancient Nord art is insignificant because Dragonborns are special creature that can learn everything just by looking at those words.

"With the voice wielding power of the ancient Nord art...believe believe the Dragonborn come" as the song say, but the song never say the last Dragonborn must be a Nord.

(Edit : Of course the other song say Dragonborn is a "he" and "his" some argue the Dragonborn is male, and also "hero of Man" some argue Dragonborn is not beast race or Manmer, it is just because the Dragon language is just a Dragon version of English language, have the same grammar, only replace the word (it is debated over and over in TES forum), it doesn't mean the hero must be a male, a human and a Nord

It can be done because there is no voice acting for protagonist except "ah!", "aww!", "uuggh!" and "Fus Ro Dah!" things, these voices can be made by one or two voice actor for all races

I really don't see the significant of having voice for all the time, we are playing a game, not watching a movie, but like i can anything about DA and Bioware....

Ever wonder why Bethesda have millions of copies sold? It is because some players love to play as Imperial, some love to play as Breton, some love to play as Orc, some love to play as Khajit, some love to play as Red Guard, some love to change races on each play through

So, throw away race selection in a game that originally have race selection just because of voice acting and want to make a drama, it also means throw away some of buyers of the previous product

Edit : What if Bethesda suddenly decide that in TES 6 the player will only can play as Imperial? They will suffer like DA2.....

Modifié par Qistina, 24 juin 2013 - 10:12 .

[Salaya]

I sincerely doubt BW returns to race selection in future games, In single player campaingms at least. The future of RPGs seems to be playing with a marketable, fully voiced, boring human.

They said that maybe in future installments they will try to make race selection again; but I see it as the promise of mod tools -a promise to hook certain players long enough for buying the game.

[Sable Rhapsody]

Qistina wrote...
So, throw away race selection in a game that originally have race selection just because of voice acting and want to make a drama, it also means throw away some of buyers of the previous product

Edit : What if Bethesda suddenly decide that in TES 6 the player will only can play as Imperial? They will suffer like DA2.....

Bethesda and BioWare both make games that fall into the very broad category of "Western RPG" and share similar fantasy tropes.  But I'd say they scratch different itches, and have fundamentally different approaches to storytelling.

In fact, certain race selections in BioWare's earlier games were more of a problem than an asset.  Take, for example, the fact that you could play as a 20 year old elf in the BG, when the D&D lore at that time clearly said that elves live centuries longer and mature much more slowly than humans.  The timeline of events no longer fits.  So...what now?  Earlier BioWare games just ignored the simple incongruity.  At least Bethesda's games are flexible enough to allow any race or gender to make sense in the story, even if it plays little to no significant role.

Modifié par Sable Rhapsody, 24 juin 2013 - 10:45 .

[fchopin]

I think it will be human only unless it’s some kind of game where everyone looks different.

[Boycott Bioware]

In fact, certain race selections in BioWare's earlier games were more of a problem than an asset. Take, for example, the fact that you could play as a 20 year old elf in the BG, when the D&D lore at that time clearly said that elves live centuries longer and mature much more slowly than humans. The timeline of events no longer fits. So...what now? Earlier BioWare games just ignored the simple incongruity. At least Bethesda's games are flexible enough to allow any race or gender to make sense in the story, even if it plays little to no significant role.

The common fantasy race such as Elves doesn't have to be the same in any stories/games. So comparing Elves in DA with Elves in any other games is not fair comparison. Even in real cultures elves are different. Elves in my culture are simply the Jinns, the extra-terrestrial being. It share common features with western Elves, they are beautiful, long haired, pointy ears, pointy eyes, long face and long nose humanoid, but we don't them "Elves", they are Jinns who live in the forest. They can be Muslims (mostly Muslims) or Christian or Hindu or whatever religion where they come from, similar like us. Some of them do married with human, some of them are bad and evil, some of them are good, and some of them don't even bother us human.

Every culture have their own Elves and Dwarves, yes my culture also have Dwarves, but not the same with western stereotypical Dwarves. I am not sure they are Jinns or not but they look like human only in small size. They also live in the forest like the Elves. They love to smoke, it is said that they used to trade tobacco with the locals, it was the locals who teach them how to smoke, they like it a lot, but their numbers become thin every years and now they rarely show up, some say it is because most of them died of lung cancer...

What i mean is those races can be like whatever the writers want them to be, in DA the Elves are no longer immortal, some Elves live with human as servants and slaves, this surely not the same with the common Elves in most games and stories

[mikeymoonshine]

Plaintiff wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...
Humans are more overused that dwarves or elves though.

But they are nowhere near as bland and homogenous as dwarves or elves.

"Oh wow, you live underground and you forge weapons? What a completely unexpected twist!"

That is because dwarves are based on mythology! They were mythalogical spirits that generally represented the earth,  the mountains, metals, mineing, crafting, smithing ect.  

What are they supposed to do? "oh we have dwarves in the game but they don't live underground instead they fly around in the sky breathing fire!"  "OOH yeah in dragon age 3 dwarves will be mythical sea creatures that lure sailors to their deaths with their beautiful songs" 

These races are just popular templates they can have origionality in their stories but you can only change them so much before they stop being what they are. 

[ManOfSteel]

I hope so.

[NasChoka]

Atemeus wrote...

I don't see why they'll have any problem making only Dwarves playable in Dragon Age 4.

Or only Elves, if Dragon Age 4 were to perhaps focus on a newly sparked City Elf rebellion/the Dalish invading and making a land grab on a nation weakened by the events of Inquisition.

I would like to lead a rebellion. We could call it Dragon Age Shartacus 

Playing a dwarven-noble fighting for power would be nice too.

[Sable Rhapsody]

Qistina wrote...
What i mean is those races can be like whatever the writers want them to be, in DA the Elves are no longer immortal, some Elves live with human as servants and slaves, this surely not the same with the common Elves in most games and stories

The lifespan thing was just one example, not my point; sorry if that was unclear.  My point was that race choice is NOT inherently a good thing.  It has to work with its game.

The wide variety of backgrounds in Origins had to do with race as well as class, and informed minor (and occasionally major) story elements in the rest of the game.  DA2, on the other hand, would've been more-or-less the same story regardless of race.  And to top it off, using the writers' own conception of elves and dwarves, an elven or dwarven champion of Kirkwall would've made much less sense than a human one.  KOTOR was another game where the protagonist was only human, and it worked just fine.  Hell, Planescape: Torment set the PC's race, gender, and backstory, and was still one of the best RPGs ever.

I don't know what Inquisition's story will be like, or if it could've benefitted from a multiple race protagonist.  We'll see when we have more details.

Modifié par Sable Rhapsody, 24 juin 2013 - 12:13 .

[Drasanil]

I'm pretty sure Bioware will stick with human-only now. If only because their main reason for doing so is entirely disingenuous, namely that of the 'story'. The problem with 'the story won't allow it' is that they are the one's creating the story in the first place. They could easily make a story that would allow it if they wanted to, but simply refuse to do so.

Case and point DA2. When it came to the finished product, who Hawke was was so far from relevant to the overarching plot/events that unfolded, as to make the 'story' excuse fall flat on it's face.

As for the hypothetical inquisitor. They're introducing a new organisation, which they are largely free define, it would be laughably easy to justify an elven or dwarven inquisitor from a story perspective. Just give the Inquisition the 'right' recruitment practices, such as recruiting orphans to ensure absolute loyalty to the mother chantry. Or have the chantry recruit talent as part of a tithe, along the lines of how turkish janissaries were taken from christian families.

Anything we hear from Bioware with regards to the possibility of multiple races in the future is probably just noise made to sooth the fan base in the hopes that we eventually just drop/forget it. Because if they had actually wanted to do it, they could have already.

[Chaos Lord Malek]

Salaya wrote...

I sincerely doubt BW returns to race selection in future games, In single player campaingms at least. The future of RPGs seems to be playing with a marketable, fully voiced, boring human.

Geralt disagree with you (Ciri in Witcher 4 probably as well).

[LobselVith8]

Plaintiff wrote...

I strongly suspect that the reason elves and dwarves are seen as "more interesting" is because there is an underlying assumption that "human" means "straight white male".

I think it's an underlying view for the developers. Varric's story starts off with a white Hawke, which is awkward for some players, especially those of is who never intended to create a white Champion of Kirkwall. The developers never even bothered to consider having The Warden's family members match his (or her) skin tone if the player created a non-white protagonist.

We've also gotten some dismissive responses about the lack of diversity in Thedas when players bring up the subject.

[Karlone123]

Chaos Lord Malek wrote...

Salaya wrote...

I sincerely doubt BW returns to race selection in future games, In single player campaingms at least. The future of RPGs seems to be playing with a marketable, fully voiced, boring human.

Geralt disagree with you (Ciri in Witcher 4 probably as well).

Suppose a half-human, half-elven protaganist could be a good compromise. But that would most likely be put into a companion.

[Salaya]

C'mon, guys. Geralt is not a funny person.

I'm sure he wouldn't be a good beer partner. He probably would end the party rolling on the floor, like a main character in a god-of-war-esque game that desperately tries to be a RPG.

Besides, he's more white than the average white man. You are agreeing with me.

[Ryzaki]

Probably will be forced to always play a human.

Doesn't bother me that much anyway.

[Rawgrim]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

I strongly suspect that the reason elves and dwarves are seen as "more interesting" is because there is an underlying assumption that "human" means "straight white male".

I think it's an underlying view for the developers. Varric's story starts off with a white Hawke, which is awkward for some players, especially those of is who never intended to create a white Champion of Kirkwall. The developers never even bothered to consider having The Warden's family members match his (or her) skin tone if the player created a non-white protagonist.

We've also gotten some dismissive responses about the lack of diversity in Thedas when players bring up the subject.

Well Hawke IS from Lothering, after all. People are white in that part of the DA world.

[Rawgrim]

Salaya wrote...

C'mon, guys. Geralt is not a funny person.

I'm sure he wouldn't be a good beer partner. He probably would end the party rolling on the floor, like a main character in a god-of-war-esque game that desperately tries to be a RPG.

Besides, he's more white than the average white man. You are agreeing with me.

Well he did turn albino due to mutation, so I guess he is whiter than most.