426 réponses à ce sujet

[Jigglypuff]

maybe with new races added, I would love to play as a demon, qunari, lady of the forest kinda spirit
It would be very cool and stuff.

[Iakus]

Ryzaki wrote...

Probably will be forced to always play a human.

Doesn't bother me that much anyway.

This.

There's plenty of different human cultures to explore.  If we get to play elves or dwarves later on, that's cool too.

[LobselVith8]

Rawgrim wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I think it's an underlying view for the developers. Varric's story starts off with a white Hawke, which is awkward for some players, especially those of is who never intended to create a white Champion of Kirkwall. The developers never even bothered to consider having The Warden's family members match his (or her) skin tone if the player created a non-white protagonist.

We've also gotten some dismissive responses about the lack of diversity in Thedas when players bring up the subject.

Well Hawke IS from Lothering, after all. People are white in that part of the DA world. 

Not everyone is white. And the player can make Hawke brown or black, so starting him (or her) off as white seems like an odd (and uncomfortable) move, especially when Varric talks about this version of Hawke's story as the one people have heard.

[Rayndorn]

I find playing humans in a fantasy game like going to a buffet and only having a slice of bread, but I don't mind playing as one. Character identity is fairly important to me though, so being forced into being a Human kills some replay value for me. 

It'd be interesting to have a future Dragon Age game where you HAVE to play as a Dwarf or Elf, though!

Modifié par Hazasaurus98, 24 juin 2013 - 04:40 .

[Boycott Bioware]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

The lifespan thing was just one example, not my point; sorry if that was unclear. My point was that race choice is NOT inherently a good thing. It has to work with its game.

The wide variety of backgrounds in Origins had to do with race as well as class, and informed minor (and occasionally major) story elements in the rest of the game. DA2, on the other hand, would've been more-or-less the same story regardless of race. And to top it off, using the writers' own conception of elves and dwarves, an elven or dwarven champion of Kirkwall would've made much less sense than a human one. KOTOR was another game where the protagonist was only human, and it worked just fine. Hell, Planescape: Torment set the PC's race, gender, and backstory, and was still one of the best RPGs ever.

I don't know what Inquisition's story will be like, or if it could've benefitted from a multiple race protagonist. We'll see when we have more details.

The problem of DA2 is replay value, playing only as human give a very narrow view on things, in DA2 case there is only two that are as a Mage or as a non-Mage human. This thing will goes on in DA:I because of we only can play as human.

Human in DA world have own view about magic, not the same with other races. Elves view magic differently than a human would think about it. Elves have different religion, culture and history. So, if DA2 allow the player to play as an Elf no matter Mage Elf or non-Mage Elf, things could turn out differently or things are not only in one dimension

Why can't an Elf or Dwarf be the Champion of Kirkwal? "The Champion" here is just an honorary title not an office title. Hawke is not from Kirkwal but he/she can be given this title from Knight Commander Meredith for his/her deed. Now this is another issue, that title is given by a Knight Commander of Templar, not from noble. See "the Champion of Kirkwal" is just a title given by "a Knight Commander" of a religious organization.

Look at Red Cliff, the Warden and Co are given the same title, the Champions of Red Cliff (also unlocking Champion specialization), the Warden may not be human

DA2 can only be played as human because of Kirkwal is human city is just an excuse, for me i believe Bioware actually have changed policy in higher level, they want to make all Bioware games like ME...

Kirkwal story can be made for all races with no problem. It is just because of the voice acting issue, if not because of voice acting, i don't see any problem at all to put race selection

Let say, Dalish Elf, we see some darkspawns in Brecilian Forest in DA:O, so similar thing can be made, a group of Dalish Elf running from Darkspawn, eventually saved by Flemeth, then Flemeth ask for a favor to go to Kirkwal to sent the amulet to Merethari...then when going to Kirkwal, the protagonist and family somehow manage to get in the city via bribe or whatever then live in the Alienage...see, it just this simple

How about City Elf? Just skip the timeline to 1 year after the Blight, then show the protagonist is serving his/her human boss, and then start from there. Dwarf? The intro can be made the protagonist was in the Carta, then hear about Deep Road expedition. Both characters could meet with Flemeth somewhere in their quests out of any reasons

Surely Dwarf and Elf cannot be a noble but they could be influential person because of the riches they get from the Deep Road, and some connections they made in Act1 quests, maybe they can buy a nicer house somewhere in the town

And that RISE TO POWER come into sense

I don't see how DA2 cannot be played as non-human

Edit : How about the ending? Surely Dwarf and Elf cannot be Viscount, so just change it to they got high respect from Templar Order by siding with Templar, if siding with Mages, then they become Mages hero

Modifié par Qistina, 24 juin 2013 - 05:29 .

[LobselVith8]

Qistina wrote...

Edit : How about the ending? Surely Dwarf and Elf cannot be Viscount, so just change it to they got hight respect from Templar Order by siding with Templar, if siding with Mages, then they become Mages hero 

The templar ending is just as problematic for an apostate Hawke, with a free mage getting political power in Kirkwall, which the developers admitted to.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

It isn't any more problematic than a Mage Champion of Kirkwall being openly tolerated by the Templars in Act 2 and 3.

[Boycott Bioware]

LobselVith8 wrote..
The templar ending is just as problematic for an apostate Hawke, with a free mage getting political power in Kirkwall, which the developers admitted to.

Yes, Hawke becoming a viscount never shown in the game anyway.

Ending slide show can be made, i don't think it is so hard to made the slide show than making CGI ending movie. Just add few Varric lines such as "Ah...after some years, there is a scandal regarding the Champion, he/she become too influential and thus making the nobles uneasy...because of the rising tension, the Champion left and gone...missing", whatever reason can be made for the protagonist going missing

[Plaintiff]

mikeymoonshine wrote...
What are they supposed to do?

Stop using dwarves altogether would be my suggestion.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I think it's an underlying view for the developers. Varric's story starts off with a white Hawke, which is awkward for some players, especially those of is who never intended to create a white Champion of Kirkwall. The developers never even bothered to consider having The Warden's family members match his (or her) skin tone if the player created a non-white protagonist.

We've also gotten some dismissive responses about the lack of diversity in Thedas when players bring up the subject.

Well Hawke IS from Lothering, after all. People are white in that part of the DA world. 

Not everyone is white. And the player can make Hawke brown or black, so starting him (or her) off as white seems like an odd (and uncomfortable) move, especially when Varric talks about this version of Hawke's story as the one people have heard.

Why? There's no racist element to this. It's default Hawke vs non default Hawke. Ethnic Fereldens are supposedy white anyway. Darker skinned humans are descended from further north in Thedas. If you hear a story about a hero from Ferelden and know almost none of the details, it's not a huge stretch to imagine he's white. Many figures from history have an "iconic" appearance that exists in popular culture that wasn't what they actually looked like.

I wasn't uncomfortable in Kotor 2 when Atton "incorrectly" assumes that Revan was a woman during the early conversations where the player can choose who Revan was.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 24 juin 2013 - 08:15 .

[LobselVith8]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

It isn't any more problematic than a Mage Champion of Kirkwall being openly tolerated by the Templars in Act 2 and 3.

I don't disagree with you. The apostate POV was missing almost entirely from Dragon Age II.

[Seival]

Karlone123 wrote...

Will we always have to play as a Human in future games?

I hope not.

[LobselVith8]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Not everyone is white. And the player can make Hawke brown or black, so starting him (or her) off as white seems like an odd (and uncomfortable) move, especially when Varric talks about this version of Hawke's story as the one people have heard.

Why? There's no racist element to this. It's default Hawke vs non default Hawke. Ethnic Fereldens are supposedy white anyway. Darker skinned humans are descended from further north in Thedas. If you hear a story about a hero from Ferelden and know almost none of the details, it's not a huge stretch to imagine he's white. Many figures from history have an "iconic" appearance that exists in popular culture that wasn't what they actually looked like.

Because it makes no sense for Varric to tell people that Hawke is white if he isn't, especially since the narrative is entirely Varric's creation - as we see with Bethany's "additions". We also know that Varric includes little details in his stories, which Hawke comments on. Telling people that the brown or black Champion was white (which is how it comes across) was the wrong move for the developers to make. It's why I think Inquisition should avoid starting off with a default white protagonist.

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

I wasn't uncomfortable in Kotor 2 when Atton "incorrectly" assumes that Revan was a woman during the early conversations where the player can choose who Revan was. 

Because Varric is telling Cassandra that Hawke is white, even if the player dictates otherwise.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 24 juin 2013 - 08:31 .

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Varirc is just telling the story she expected to hear at the beginning. It was a joke. He was recounting the legend, not telling her what Hawke was really like.

[Sable Rhapsody]

LobselVith8 wrote...
I don't disagree with you. The apostate POV was missing almost entirely from Dragon Age II.

If DA2 had clearly supported (and supported well) both apostate mage and non-mage RP, I would sing its praises a lot more.  

IF you're going to limit race choice due to budget or VA or story or whatever, make up for it some other way.  Maybe since race is no longer an issue, the character's class or backstory is very relevant to the story and interactions.  RP depth can (IMO) make up for a relative lack of RP breadth.

[xAmilli0n]

I don't have a problem playing as a human in future games, but I do miss being able to play as a human hating Dalish Elf.

[Thetford]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Not everyone is white. And the player can make Hawke brown or black, so starting him (or her) off as white seems like an odd (and uncomfortable) move, especially when Varric talks about this version of Hawke's story as the one people have heard.

Why? There's no racist element to this. It's default Hawke vs non default Hawke. Ethnic Fereldens are supposedy white anyway. Darker skinned humans are descended from further north in Thedas. If you hear a story about a hero from Ferelden and know almost none of the details, it's not a huge stretch to imagine he's white. Many figures from history have an "iconic" appearance that exists in popular culture that wasn't what they actually looked like.

Because it makes no sense for Varric to tell people that Hawke is white if he isn't, especially since the narrative is entirely Varric's creation - as we see with Bethany's "additions". We also know that Varric includes little details in his stories, which Hawke comments on. Telling people that the brown or black Champion was white (which is how it comes across) was the wrong move for the developers to make. It's why I think Inquisition should avoid starting off with a default white protagonist.

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

I wasn't uncomfortable in Kotor 2 when Atton "incorrectly" assumes that Revan was a woman during the early conversations where the player can choose who Revan was. 

Because Varric is telling Cassandra that Hawke is white, even if the player dictates otherwise.

Who is to say Varric specified any race at all, for all we know, that entire sequence could be based on Cassandra's preconceptions of what a Ferelden looks like and what we witness is her imagination (otherwise it would be a little odd, unless Varric is incredibly OCD and has to tell every single detail about every person and location). There is no photography, art seems to be limited, and the pictures in Cassandra's book don't indicate race at all.

[LobselVith8]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Varirc is just telling the story she expected to hear at the beginning. It was a joke. He was recounting the legend, not telling her what Hawke was really like.

Which doesn't change how jarring it is to see a white Hawke if the player is going to create a non-white protagonist. It bothered me; I thought it was completely unnecessary.

[Qyla]

The problem is that voicing a main character requires a really long time and using a voice that fits human, elves, dwarf, qunari, whatever is impossible. Hiring more voice actors adds a cost to the production of the videogame, as well as having different reaction based on race/sex so blame the voiced character for this.

[Maclimes]

Plaintiff wrote...

mikeymoonshine wrote...
What are they supposed to do?

Stop using dwarves altogether would be my suggestion.

A thousand curses upon your head.

[AstraDrakkar]

The way I see it, Bioware has only 2 choices. Only use human protagonists or allow the player to be any race they choose. If they don't have the resources for the latter then they have to limit the protag to being human.

Modifié par AstraDrakkar, 24 juin 2013 - 09:56 .

[Jedi Master of Orion]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Varirc is just telling the story she expected to hear at the beginning. It was a joke. He was recounting the legend, not telling her what Hawke was really like.

Which doesn't change how jarring it is to see a white Hawke if the player is going to create a non-white protagonist. It bothered me; I thought it was completely unnecessary.

But I still don't understand why. Why is is jarring? It's not "real." That Hawke is not the protagonist, it's just a made up story. It isn't supposed to mean anything. It was Bioware's way of using the inaccuracies in the framed narrative to transition from default Hawke to customized Hawke (or not): sort of including the character customization in the story slightly more. And it doesn't last longer than a minute or two because it's not that important.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 24 juin 2013 - 11:03 .

[LobselVith8]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Which doesn't change how jarring it is to see a white Hawke if the player is going to create a non-white protagonist. It bothered me; I thought it was completely unnecessary.

But I still don't understand why. Why is is jarring? It's not "real." That Hawke is not the protagonist, it's just a made up story. It isn't supposed to mean anything. It was Bioware's way of using the inaccuracies in the framed narrative to transition from default Hawke to customized Hawke (or not): sort of including the character customization in the story slightly more. And it doesn't last longer than a minute or two because it's not that important. 

The implication is that this is what Varric has said. If Varric has been telling a story about a white Hawke for years, to the point where he expects that Cassandra has heard this tale, I don't see why I need to explain why I find it so problematic. If Hawke is ethnically Antivan or Rivaini, then it's a sufficient enough reason why we shouldn't have started off with a default white protagonist. Incorporating the default white protagonist into the storyline gave it uncomfortable implications, and I think it should be avoided in the future.

Frankly, I really don't understand why I need to explain why starting off as a white protagonist is so jarring if the player isn't going to create a white Champion of Kirkwall.

It reminds me of how little thought was put into players making a brown or black Warden since his family was always default white.

[In Exile]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

I strongly suspect that the reason elves and dwarves are seen as "more interesting" is because there is an underlying assumption that "human" means "straight white male".

 
....

We've also gotten some dismissive responses about the lack of diversity in Thedas when players bring up the subject.

I think it's funny that the all-white elf and dwarf fantasy races, whose underlying conceptual idea of race is horridly offensive and right out of the 1940s, get equated with diversity, but that's just my own 2 cents. 

Modifié par In Exile, 24 juin 2013 - 11:36 .

[Allan Schumacher]

It reminds me of how little thought was put into players making a brown or black Warden since his family was always default white.

Ouch.