152 réponses à ce sujet

[Clayless]

Arcian wrote...

she mercy killed them

That wasn't a mercy kill, it was murder.

[Dextro Milk]

Robosexual wrote...

Arcian wrote...

she mercy killed them

That wasn't a mercy kill, it was murder.

I call it justice.

You know how many people that Asari killed as part of that gang? Not to mention if she just told Samara, she would have lived. Goodness, she practically killed herself. 

[Bill Casey]

In cut content, Sidonis makes up for it by helping Garrus's family get off of Palaven...
If he's dead, Garrus's family would have died...

Of course, this was left on the cutting room floor, but as someone who spares Sidonis, I like to think it would happen...
When I look at Sidonis, I see a repentant man desperate to make things right. He may even save Garrus's life some day...

Modifié par Bill Casey, 23 juin 2013 - 08:09 .

[wizardryforever]

StreetMagic wrote...

No, Renegades are defined by not worrying about immediate goods and doing whatever it takes to solve future problems. Look at all the renegade choices. A majority of them amount to that. It's not a morality thing. Paragons tend to value the present more, while Renegades justify things with the "big picture".

Samara follows her own laws. Not "law" in general. She's even willing to go Terminator and take down an entire police station if they detain her for longer than a day. If having your own code that allows you to kill innocent cops isn't Renegade, then I don't know what is.

The code is pretty clear on this point, though.  Justicars represent justice and the adherence to such, and thus do not break asari law by definition.  So if she is detained by asari cops, it means one of two things: she's guilty, in which case the code no longer matters to her anyway, or the cops are dirty.  Dirty cops are really no better than criminals in and of themselves, and there is plenty of in-game evidence that Anaya's superiors are in the Eclipse's pocket.

Even despite this, Samara tries her best to find a loophole that spares the innocent "just-following-orders" cops working in the precinct.  If she really was Renegade, she wouldn't do that, nor would she if she was a complete slave to the Code.

The problem comes up when justicars leave asari space, as Samara's recruitment mission brings up frequently.  Since aliens may have made laws that conflict with the code, or simply don't recognize the justicar's authority, an incident where innocents are killed becomes much more likely.  This could be why justicars rarely leave asari space.

On topic though, I don't see exactly what Sidonis has to do with the ending.  Not everything has to do with the ending, though I do wish that his name was actually mentioned after that mission at some point.  Garrus seems to promptly forget about him afterward, which is somewhat jarring.

[rohanks]

I save Sidonis to 'save' Garrus. As the subtext of Garrus's mission is that he is becoming displaced (as Thane described Kolyat) by his desire for revenge.

There is no better reason than that.

[xlegionx]

rohanks wrote...

I save Sidonis to 'save' Garrus. As the subtext of Garrus's mission is that he is becoming displaced (as Thane described Kolyat) by his desire for revenge.

There is no better reason than that.

Yea if you just kill Sidonis you lose out on a good bit of character development/ dialogue for Garrus

[Mcfly616]

StreetMagic wrote...

Btw, I like Samara. I'm just saying she is a Renegade. That doesn't mean she's evil. At the very least, she's definitely not "goody two shoes Paragon aww I'm so sensitive and wish to coddle everyone". Ahem, sorry. That was a mouthful.

yet, you can't romance her unless you're a full paragon or close to it....

[The Heretic of Time]

Mcfly616 wrote...

yet, you can't romance her unless you're a full paragon or close to it....

Well, what can I say? Samara is a hypcrite. Big surprise there.

Modifié par Heretic_Hanar, 23 juin 2013 - 09:04 .

[Seboist]

I always killed Sidonis because the alternative of agreeing to help Garrus kill him from the get-go and proceeding to slaughter a whole bunch of mercs only to all of a sudden start preaching "thou shall not kill" is stupid as hell.

[Arcian]

StreetMagic wrote...

Btw, I like Samara. I'm just saying she is a Renegade. That doesn't mean she's evil. At the very least, she's definitely not "goody two shoes Paragon aww I'm so sensitive and wish to coddle everyone". Ahem, sorry. That was a mouthful.

I can't think of a single person, Shepard included, in the entire franchise who fits that description. The fact that Paragons think and act rationally and use diplomacy and tact instead of impulsively shoving their guns into other's peoples faces doesn't mean they want to kiss babies and be friends with all living things.

And really, calling Samara a Renegade because she kills dangerous criminals and is really extreme about upholding law and justice is like calling Judge Dredd an outlaw because he kills dangerous criminals and is really extreme about upholding law and justice.

[AlexMBrennan]

Not to mention if she just told Samara, she would have lived. Goodness, she practically killed herself.

And if you just hand over your wallet you are less likely to get stabbed in a mugging, therefore muggers murdering people in the streets is justice. /headdesk

Justicars represent justice and the adherence to such, and thus do not break asari law by definition. So if she is detained by asari cops, it means one of two things: she's guilty, in which case the code no longer matters to her anyway, or the cops are dirty. Dirty cops are really no better than criminals in and of themselves, and there is plenty of in-game evidence that Anaya's superiors are in the Eclipse's pocket.

Since Anaya's superiors are dirty, killing her is justice /headdesk

Thing is though... if asari justicars cannot be legally detained then Anaya is not required to follow her (unlawful) orders but since she never brings this up; given that her life is literally on the line I don't think that she would have kept quiet about that to protect her dirty superiors. So I call bovine excrement on that.

What's more, you have selectively quoted from the codex:

While they often find a justicar's presence unnerving, asari police forces usually let a justicar perform her duties out of respect

"Out of respect" means that the justicars are not legally above the law and can be detained, but police may choose to not pursue the matter. That is to say, the codex is inconsistent on the matter.

Modifié par AlexMBrennan, 23 juin 2013 - 10:29 .

[wizardryforever]

AlexMBrennan wrote...

Not to mention if she just told Samara, she would have lived. Goodness, she practically killed herself.

And if you just hand over your wallet you are less likely to get stabbed in a mugging, therefore muggers murdering people in the streets is justice. /headdesk

Justicars represent justice and the adherence to such, and thus do not break asari law by definition. So if she is detained by asari cops, it means one of two things: she's guilty, in which case the code no longer matters to her anyway, or the cops are dirty. Dirty cops are really no better than criminals in and of themselves, and there is plenty of in-game evidence that Anaya's superiors are in the Eclipse's pocket.

Since Anaya's superiors are dirty, killing her is justice /headdesk

Thing is though... if asari justicars cannot be legally detained then Anaya is not required to follow her (unlawful) orders but since she never brings this up; given that her life is literally on the line I don't think that she would have kept quiet about that to protect her dirty superiors. So I call bovine excrement on that.

What's more, you have selectively quoted from the codex:

While they often find a justicar's presence unnerving, asari police forces usually let a justicar perform her duties out of respect

"Out of respect" means that the justicars are not legally above the law and can be detained, but police may choose to not pursue the matter. That is to say, the codex is inconsistent on the matter.

Samara: "You risk a great deal in following your orders detective.  Fortunately, I will not have to resist.  My code obligates me to cooperate with you for one day.  After that, I must return to my investigation."
Anaya: "I won't be able to release you that soon."
Samara: "You won't be able to stop me."

That exchange pretty firmly establishes that Anaya is risking her life by following her orders, then at the end of the mission Anaya quips "and you've just upped my chances of living long enough to have grandkids."  She knows.  Don't be dense.

Furthermore, I don't believe I ever made the claim that killing Anaya would be justice, nor does Samara believe that, since she actively tries to find a way around her Code's obligation for her to fight her way out of custody.  She does her best to protect the innocent, and considering her Code is very black and white on the matter, I find her efforts to that end admirable.  And don't forget the story she tells about her fight with Nihlus.  Nihlus manipulates her into saving the innocent rather than pursuing her.  Protecting the innocent is more important than pursuing the unjust, according to her code.

[wiccame]

The whole quest was about someone Garrus trusted betraying him, I wasn't about to do the same thing. I talk to Garrus and half hearted try to talk him out of it, then let him do it. he knows the risks and the consequences, I'm just there for support.

[AlanC9]

Bill Casey wrote...

In cut content, Sidonis makes up for it by helping Garrus's family get off of Palaven...
If he's dead, Garrus's family would have died...

Source?

Not that I doubt it. Bio often punishes Renegade choices.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

I always have let Garrus shoot Sidonis. Why murder two Krogan, threaten a volus, kill a bunch of mercs, then beat the crap out of Harkin just to get Sidonis' location just to go all preachy on Garrus about killing is wrong, or he's getting "displaced" and "disconnected". It's stupid as hell. Shoot the bastard. Debt repayed.

So far I'm not seeing renegade choices being punished that much. The punishment only matters if you care about that particular consequence.

[thehomeworld]

While it is weird that 1. the other squad mate doesn't care, 2 if you let him kill Sidonis shep doesn't care, and or 3 if you stop Garrus he isn't ready to kill you I don't see how killing (or not) Sidonis relates to the endings. A better ending issues is I gave the militia on the citadel weapons and everyone still dies so should people not bother to give them the guns because its invalidated by the ending?

As far as killing him since everybody else is saying about why they did so I felt bad for killing Sidonis and angry but not really at Garrus because he did let me know I was mad at myself for not standing up to him and letting him kill a man while I watched. After afew playthroughs I realized I'm the strongest person in the galaxy why aren't I standing up to Garrus? Then I did and relized he was probably very likly going to kill me once we met back up. I was very surprised he didn't try to smash my head into the car and choke me half to death while growling at me for stopping him.

Modifié par thehomeworld, 24 juin 2013 - 06:27 .

[Slayer299]

I don't see the point of your question OP. Killing/sparing Sidonis has zero effect on the ending. With that said, no, I'd not let Sidonis live past Garrus' loyalty mission. My Shepard knew that Sidonis had to die by Garrus' hand after what he'd done. The only thing missing was a bag of 30 silvers left with him.

[favoritehookeronthecitadel]

Bill Casey wrote...

In cut content, Sidonis makes up for it by helping Garrus's family get off of Palaven...
If he's dead, Garrus's family would have died...

Of course, this was left on the cutting room floor, but as someone who spares Sidonis, I like to think it would happen...
When I look at Sidonis, I see a repentant man desperate to make things right. He may even save Garrus's life some day...

OMG, that would've been so awesome. Why did they have to cut one of the awesome things in the game?

[Bardox9]

I never "spare" Sidonis. He betrayed the awesomeness that is Garrus. HE MUST DIE!!!

Modifié par Bardox9, 24 juin 2013 - 06:45 .

[rohanks]

Respectfully,

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

"I always have let Garrus shoot Sidonis. Why murder two Krogan, threaten a volus, kill a bunch of mercs, then beat the crap out of Harkin just to get Sidonis' location" 

That is exactly my point.

"just to go all preachy on Garrus about killing is wrong"

This doesn't happen. Throughout the mission (I played the Paragon path) Shepherd asks Garrus if he is OK and "what is he going to do if...." even remarking at one stage "this isn't like you Garrus". Harkin makes a similar remark. Something along the lines of "....you've changed since your days with C-Sec, Garrus"

Shepherd even restrains him (taps him on the shoulder) from going too far with his boot on Harkin's throat. 

At no time does Paragon Shepherd make any remark about "killing is wrong". I don't see how that dialogue option would be present with a Renegade Shepherd for obvious reasons.

Another shade of grey is the email Shepherd receives from the wife of one of Archangel/Garrus's dead squad mates on Omega. She doesn't want Garrus to blame himself for what happened and asks Shepherd to look after/out for Garrus. 

Is Garrus pursuing Sidonis as Garrus or as Archangel?

In my interpretation, this is about Garrus's redemption. That by killing Sidonis he destroys the last good part of himself that remains. This is supported by Garrus's (with Paragon Shepherd)  remark about Sidonis after he lets him go "I could see that there was still good in him". And in so doing Shepherd helps Archangel to save that good part of himself 'falling from grace'.

I understand the opposing view. Support your friend and blow away the 'bad guy'. Because, well. He is your friend and he asked you to. All that Garrus asks you to do in terms of Finding Sidonis is not to get in his way. "I'll pull the trigger and live with the consequences". However, at least as I saw it in this case. A true friend is one that will follow you into hell but not allow you to dwell there.


"So far I'm not seeing renegade choices being punished that much. The punishment only matters if you care about that particular consequence."

Interesting.

Believe me I allowed Garrus to pull the trigger on the first playthrough of ME2 . But that never sat right with me and my experience of Garrus's character in ME1 and his transition in ME2 . At least as I interpreted him. So I had to go back in the next playthrough and experience the alternative. That sat right with me in this case and your choice sat right with you.

All in all, an excellent piece of writing by the Bioware team and one of my favourite missions in Mass Effect 2.

Modifié par rohanks, 24 juin 2013 - 07:34 .

[Slayer299]

Can you please explain "In my interpretation, this is about Garrus's redemption. That by killing Sidonis he destroys the last good part of himself that remains." Because that seems to be saying that Garrus has been/done lots of evil and sparing Sidonis is some sort of redemption. Redemption of what exactly? Garrus did a lot of good over on Omega so what is he atoning for? Sidonis' betrayal? Taking blame for Sidonis' actions and the death of his squad? Killing mercs/dealers? Please explain.

If you liked to spare Sidonis' life because it felt better to you, I don't see your meaning otherwise.

[FlamingBoy]

Well since the ending is somehow relevant to the sidonis choice, it really does not matter if you spare him or not.

However I did let him live in me2 .

Modifié par FlamingBoy, 24 juin 2013 - 07:45 .