152 réponses à ce sujet

[AlexMBrennan]

Why would I spare Sidonis? That's Garrus' issue to deal with not mine and Garrus chose to kill him.

Retarded bit underlined by me.

Would you let a gunman murder a child if you could (safely at no personal risk) prevent it because it is the gunman's choice to do so? Of course not, so why would you be an accessory to murder because it's Garrus choice?

The simple fact is killing Sidonis without due process (ever heard of the right to a trial?) is murder, and whilst Shepard might get away with it by waving his Spectre card it still doesn't make it anything other than murder.
In civilised society we generally frown upon vigilantism (which is what this is) so I find it a bit odd that this decision gets so much support.

Modifié par AlexMBrennan, 24 juin 2013 - 09:21 .

[MegaSovereign]

Killing Sidonis serves no tactical purpose.

[Wolfva2]

AlexMBrennan wrote...

Why would I spare Sidonis? That's Garrus' issue to deal with not mine and Garrus chose to kill him.

Retarded bit underlined by me.

Would you let a gunman murder a child if you could (safely at no personal risk) prevent it because it is the gunman's choice to do so? Of course not, so why would you be an accessory to murder because it's Garrus choice?

The simple fact is killing Sidonis without due process (ever heard of the right to a trial?) is murder, and whilst Shepard might get away with it by waving his Spectre card it still doesn't make it anything other than murder.
In civilised society we generally frown upon vigilantism (which is what this is) so I find it a bit odd that this decision gets so much support.

There is a world of difference between 'street justice'...what Garrus wants, and murdering an innocent child.  That you can't see the difference is no surprise to me.  I can see Garrus, the cop who left the force because fo to many rules and strictures, would have no problem with street justice.  Heck, that's why he left C-Sec in the first place; it's why he became ArchAngel.  In his eyes, Sidonis was worst then the mercs he was killing; he betrayed his comrades in arms.

I'm not saying that street justice is right; just that there is a difference.

[WhiteKnyght]

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Traitorous coward deserves a traitorous coward's death.


As Street said, Samara would probably kill Sidonis herself since he betrayed his allies and got most of them killed.

This is Sidonis' "betrayal"... (Bioware, please do not sue me for posting a photo of the comic. This technically falls under fair use because it's a small segment used only for narrative purposes.)



They kidnapped him(noticed the binds), tortured him(notice the scars), and threatened his life to get him to comply.

If Samara would murder a victim of several crimes, I question the Justicar code more than I already do.

Modifié par The Grey Nayr, 25 juin 2013 - 02:01 .

[Smashmouth]

It doesn't seem like a Blue Suns type of thing to let Sidonis walk away free after they torture him though..

[WhiteKnyght]

Smashmouth wrote...

It doesn't seem like a Blue Suns type of thing to let Sidonis walk away free after they torture him though..

Why? What's he gonna do, report them to the cops? Omega has no law and the info he gave allows them to remove the only semblence of it.

Plus it depends who you're dealing with. The Blue Suns members don't all have a single personality. And Tarak was desperate to get Garrus. Desperate enough to do several things that are uncharacteristic of the Blue Suns, like working with their enemies.

In ME2: Sidonis told Shepard/Garrus that the Mercs got to him and threatened to kill him.

In comic: We see Sidonis bound, beaten, and a step away from being murdered when he finally gives in and lures Garrus away. Which is even more than he described.

You can't dismiss facts just because you don't think that's what they'd do. The fact that they're showing this is proof contrary to your opinion.

Modifié par The Grey Nayr, 25 juin 2013 - 02:22 .

[Wolfva2]

Is the comic really considered hard cannon though? I don't read it, so I just take whatever the game said was his reasons for betrayal. Which I can't remember.

[WhiteKnyght]

Wolfva2 wrote...

Is the comic really considered hard cannon though? I don't read it, so I just take whatever the game said was his reasons for betrayal. Which I can't remember.

The comics are all Canon. Because they don't interfere with the narrative of the games. Just like the novels.

And often times they assist in the games.

Mass Effect Redemption set up the story for Lair of the Shadow Broker

Mass Effect Invasion set up the story for Omega.

Mass Effect Evolution's story was referenced in ME3(the android was modeled and named after Eva Core, one of the founding members of Cerberus from Evolution)

Homeworlds just tells the origins of some of the characters, or how they came to be where they are in the games.

Modifié par The Grey Nayr, 25 juin 2013 - 02:34 .

[teh DRUMPf!!]

 I handle that differently with different Shepards.

Canonically, though, I have Garrus spare him.

This thing going around about how it's "hypocritical" to have him stand down is nonsense. There's a world of difference between that one guy and Blue Suns thugs, for one thing. After you've talked to him, it's clear that Sidonis is not a threat to anyone. Second, everyone makes mistakes. Guy panicked in a desperate situation. It's easy to call Sidonis a coward for it, but a lot of people would do the same in his position. A lot. Does that deserve punishment? I'm not sure, but I sure as hell don't condemn a guy to death for it. I'm also a believer in second-chances.

Above all else, though, it's about what's right for Garrus. His biggest problem is that he's unprincipled and needs to learn discipline. All too often, he lets his feelings get in the way and gets reckless and irrational, so much so that he even ignores his doubts and gut feelings about what he's doing with Sidonis. It's also important for him to learn that the right thing is not always the easy thing, because he tends to do what's easiest without thinking about it much at all.

It's not a matter of consistency. It's not a matter of justice/law-and-order. It's a matter of principle. It always is.

[justafan]

I honestly don't like renegade Garrus. He thinks he's a Spectre when he's really just a guy with friends in high places. He needs to cool down and think about responsibility. Yes Sidonis betrayed him and should be brought to justice. No, that justice is not delivered through the barrel of a gun. If Garrus really wants to make the world a better place, he needs to think is actions through some more and not be so impulsive.

[Smashmouth]

justafan wrote...

I honestly don't like renegade Garrus. He thinks he's a Spectre when he's really just a guy with friends in high places. He needs to cool down and think about responsibility. Yes Sidonis betrayed him and should be brought to justice. No, that justice is not delivered through the barrel of a gun. If Garrus really wants to make the world a better place, he needs to think is actions through some more and not be so impulsive.

Agreed. Is there a non renegade Garrus option?

[Nightwriter]

StreetMagic wrote...

Why even play a game where the main interaction is guns and condemn it at the same time? Justice doesn't come through the barrel of a gun? lol that's basically the entire premise of the series. The one with the biggest guns wins (in this case, it's ultimately the Reapers. Not Shepard). Perhaps it's a sad social commentary in that sense, but it's just a game. You're all probably ex NWN players who fancy yourselves paladins and clerics. It doesn't work as well here.

Meh. Just because you always have to shoot your way through mooks to get to a confrontation doesn't mean you always have to resolve that confrontation with your gun. The game gives you room to be a technical pacifist.

[Nightwriter]

StreetMagic wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

The game gives you room to be a technical pacifist.

I'll leave that role for EDI or Tali, I guess. Better engineers than I'd ever be anyways.

Har.

[iOnlySignIn]

I never spare Sidonis anyway regardless of the ending.

Garrus wants to kill Sidonis. Sidonis wants to die. Who am I to stop them?

Modifié par iOnlySignIn, 25 juin 2013 - 05:49 .

[KiwiQuiche]

AlexMBrennan wrote...

Why would I spare Sidonis? That's Garrus' issue to deal with not mine and Garrus chose to kill him.

Retarded bit underlined by me.

Would you let a gunman murder a child if you could (safely at no personal risk) prevent it because it is the gunman's choice to do so? Of course not, so why would you be an accessory to murder because it's Garrus choice?

The simple fact is killing Sidonis without due process (ever heard of the right to a trial?) is murder, and whilst Shepard might get away with it by waving his Spectre card it still doesn't make it anything other than murder.
In civilised society we generally frown upon vigilantism (which is what this is) so I find it a bit odd that this decision gets so much support.

Lol when did Sidonis change from traitourous coward who got most of his friends killed to a child?

[KaiserShep]

StreetMagic wrote...

Why even play a game where the main interaction is guns and condemn it at the same time? Justice doesn't come through the barrel of a gun? lol that's basically the entire premise of the series. The one with the biggest guns wins (in this case, it's ultimately the Reapers. Not Shepard). Perhaps it's a sad social commentary in that sense, but it's just a game. You're all probably ex NWN players who fancy yourselves paladins and clerics. It doesn't work as well here.

A good example of getting justice without actually firing a weapon in Mass Effect is the Major Kyle mission in ME1. You go to the biotic compound, and if your charm is sufficient, you can talk him down and have him taken into custody by the Alliance, and spare the lives of his misguided followers. Not all of the missions require shots fired. Sure, he had Alliance personnel killed, but you're not there to execute him; you're there to have him neutralized, whether it be peacefully or otherwise. 

Modifié par KaiserShep, 25 juin 2013 - 08:47 .

[KaiserShep]

KiwiQuiche wrote...

AlexMBrennan wrote...

Why would I spare Sidonis? That's Garrus' issue to deal with not mine and Garrus chose to kill him.

Retarded bit underlined by me.

Would you let a gunman murder a child if you could (safely at no personal risk) prevent it because it is the gunman's choice to do so? Of course not, so why would you be an accessory to murder because it's Garrus choice?

The simple fact is killing Sidonis without due process (ever heard of the right to a trial?) is murder, and whilst Shepard might get away with it by waving his Spectre card it still doesn't make it anything other than murder.
In civilised society we generally frown upon vigilantism (which is what this is) so I find it a bit odd that this decision gets so much support.

Lol when did Sidonis change from traitourous coward who got most of his friends killed to a child?

I think the point he was making was that you can't rightly disconnect yourself from the act just because of the specifics of the target and the fact that you're not the one pulling the trigger. If you think the target is scum, that's fine, but just the same, you are aiding the assassination if you're leading him out so the sniper has a clear shot. It's not that Sidonis is being compared to a child, but rather that you can't absolve yourself of responsibility just because you don't like the target, or think he deserves it. 

Modifié par KaiserShep, 25 juin 2013 - 08:53 .

[Flumburken]

I think I remember in my first ME2 playthrough,  I chose to let Sidonis die. But on later playthroughs I spared him. Most of them are Paragon ones. I don't agree that betraying and fleeing the scene is the right thing to do, but obviously he deeply regret it happened. As Paragon Shepard said: "Look at him, he's dead already". Shoot a corpse on the head may ensure it's dead (unless you're Saren, of course), but it's not really that rewarding as one might imagine. As for killing the associates on the way to that point: I never killed the Volus and his bodyguards, I don't really see the point. And for the mercs, they fired first. Which justifies for self-defence. So the argument of "You spared Sidonis despite you left a trail of corpses already?" isn't that strong imo when these people could easily chosen to walk away and let Harkin deal with the consequences of his actions alone.

Revenge is a very dirty path which even the most hardcores believe then can live with but really can't. What Garrus has been gone through is going way back in Mass Effect 1: He's a cop who doesn't want to get restrained by red tape, the "action is louder than words" kind of guy. Which is likely one of the reasons why he joined Shepard to begin with: Being a Spectre, you're obliged to do anything to get the job done. Depening if you go renegade or paragon, speaking with Garrus makes him more enligthened about moral values beyond a world of regulations and laws. 

Garrus during Mass Effect 2 shows that, despite if he tried to go back to C-Sec with his new load of experience, deep down he's still a "man of action". His time in Omega proves that. It's obvious he admired Shepard deeply and got inspired when he created his own team.

I believe that many enjoy Garrus as a character because he's very "grey-zoned", and still personally confused about it: He wants to make good deeds, but constantly standing on the thin line between lawful and chaotic actions. Shepard's role in this is being the catalyst, a mentor of sort. Sidonis was a ghost even when they confronted him, and leaving the past behind is usually the most healhty thing to do, even if the most toughest one.

Modifié par Flumburken, 25 juin 2013 - 09:45 .