137 réponses à ce sujet

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I don't know that the Dalish are lacking in positive qualities. Especially compared to the Qunari.

Just like I don't believe Andrastian nations or the Chantry are defined by their worst qualities, I don't think the Dalish deserve to be defined by the murderous raiders among them. They are (ideally) described as "noble wanderers" in the Dalish Origin. So they do in theory place a high value on honor. They also have noble motives, trying to preserve what remains of their culture and looking out for the best interests in their people in the face of persecution or other threats. Exactly how pronounced the racial tensions they have with humans are tends to vary from individual to individual, (just like humans).

I think a better example of a society severely lacking in positive qualities would be Tevinter. The Qunari on the other hand have a lot of positive qualities but probably more negative ones than anyone else, so I don't think I'd put them high on the list of best societies in Thedas.

They are by far the most brutally authoritarian society and the least tolerant of other ideas.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 25 juin 2013 - 02:57 .

[BlueMagitek]

Jedi Master, the Dalish are roving bands of brigands who listen to no greater authority, not even from other clans. Zathrian was lauded for regaining his immortality, which he did not, and suffered no punishment from the Dalish for his actions (which not only harmed the 'shem' but his own clan). There is no known system of checks and balances in Dalish culture. If you disagree with your Keeper, you have three options: Leave, Kill the Keeper, Obey. If you consider that a fine system, well, I'm afraid we don't see eye to eye.

The Qunari, on the other hand, have a role for each person in society, have seemingly demolished abominations, do not suffer from racism once a member has become Qunari, have a system of checks and balances between three leaders, are dedicated to advancement of their society, and seek out answers rather than hide away. They are not without fault, but they stand far ahead of every other society.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Qunari society is far more unforgiving than Dalish society. By far. Keepers never use use force or violence to keep dissent in line. Nor is there any rules against disagreeing with the keepers. The Qunari respond to dissent with "reeducation" or mind wiping.

Living in the Qun is also the most restrictive society in Thedas. There's no falling in love, no families, no role except what the Tamassans decide for you.

[BlueMagitek]

You are always free to leave your clan; out into a wilderness full of undead, werewolves and humans who hate you because you went around murdering them for no adequate reason. It's a bit of a racket, really.

And? You act as though those things are required for Qunari. A snail cannot taste salt, am I to take this as a huge negative of being a snail when it is something that snails are simply not able to do?

[Who is that Masked Man]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Who is that Masked Man wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...

What is your problem with the Qunari? They seem to be the most advanced, technologically and socially, of all Thedas. :/

Seriously? Are you the same guy who was just complaining that the Dalish were racist?

The Qunari word for "foreigner" is the same as their word for "thing." Basically, they're complete pricks to (very nearly) everyone who doesn't follow the Qun.

That and they want to conquer the continent through force and violence so that everyone can live in their perfect totalitarian society.

The thing is, the Dalish are lacking in positive qualities.  They're in the red.  They owe us positive qualities.  They aren't even correct about their racist assumptions, as was confirmed on this board earlier by one of the writers.

The Qunari, on the other hand, are brutal, yes.  I won't disagree with that.  But they are farther ahead of every other civilization on Thedas in the area of technology and in social means.

Unless, of course, you only believe there is one singular path for society to take to consider advanced, in which case you might as well just give up on Thedas entirely.

The Qunari are clearly ahead in technology, yes. But to claim they're ahead in "social means?" That would be the Qunari's opinion, and apparently yours, too. But it's still an opinion. Their society is certainly very different to anything we've seen in the rest of Thedas, but there is really nothing to prove it's objectively superior.

The Dalish lack positive qualities? That would be your opinion, too. I disagree.

In my book, they also gain points for refusing to live as second-class citizens in human lands, and refusing to give up their religion just because the Chantry says so. Then they have their neato Keeper spells and groovy Dalish craftsmanship. Besides which, unlike the Qunari, the Dalish do not practice any kind of slavery. To me that makes them a lot more pleasant than the Qunari right there.

As for the Dalish's belief that the elves used to be immortal, Mary Kirby's words on the subject aside, that has yet to be disproven in-game. And even if those beliefs do turn out to be wrong, the Dalish's big racist agenda since the time of the Dales was having their own kingdom and not letting the humans in.
 
Whereas the Qunari's agenda is forcing everyone to live under the Qun. And if you don't happily convert, you get sent to a forced labor camp, possibly after your mind has been destroyed by qamek.

And if you do convert, you are now basically a cog in the grand Qunari machine. Apparently some people find that awesome. In-game, we also have many examples of people (including Kossith) who think otherwise.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

BlueMagitek wrote...

You are always free to leave your clan; out into a wilderness full of undead, werewolves and humans who hate you because you went around murdering them for no adequate reason. It's a bit of a racket, really.

And? You act as though those things are required for Qunari. A snail cannot taste salt, am I to take this as a huge negative of being a snail when it is something that snails are simply not able to do?

Except the Qunari believe that everyone must be a snail. Salt is just a vice that bas are obsessed with so nobody ever should have salt.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 25 juin 2013 - 03:47 .

[Who is that Masked Man]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Jedi Master, the Dalish are roving bands of brigands who listen to no greater authority, not even from other clans. Zathrian was lauded for regaining his immortality, which he did not, and suffered no punishment from the Dalish for his actions (which not only harmed the 'shem' but his own clan). There is no known system of checks and balances in Dalish culture. If you disagree with your Keeper, you have three options: Leave, Kill the Keeper, Obey. If you consider that a fine system, well, I'm afraid we don't see eye to eye.

The Qunari, on the other hand, have a role for each person in society, have seemingly demolished abominations, do not suffer from racism once a member has become Qunari, have a system of checks and balances between three leaders, are dedicated to advancement of their society, and seek out answers rather than hide away. They are not without fault, but they stand far ahead of every other society.

What punishment did Sten face for murdering a family of farmers and losing his all-important sword? Oh, that's right: they made him Arishok. Truly, the mark of a great and enlightened society that holds its members accountable for their crimes.

In the Qun, if you disagree with your Arishok, or Arigena, or Ariqun, you can.... um. Become Tal-Vashoth, I guess?

Ooh, speaking of Dalish elves being brigands: Tal'Vashoth. Basically the Qun produces them. If you don't follow the Qun, you must become a murdering marauder. That is the honorable thing to do!

Come to think of it, a lot of your complaints about the Dalish are also true about the Qunari. Awesomeness! 

[Jedi Master of Orion]

What punishment did Sten face for murdering a family of farmers and losing his all-important sword? Oh, that's right: they made him Arishok.Truly, the mark of a great and enlightened society that holds its members accountable for their crimes.

In the Qun, if you disagree with your Arishok, or Arigena, or Ariqun, you can.... um. Become Tal-Vashoth, I guess?

Ooh, speaking of Dalish elves being brigands: Tal'Vashoth. Basically the Qun produces them. If you don't follow the Qun, you must become a murdering marauder. That is the honorable thing to do!

Come to think of it, a lot of your complaints about the Dalish are also true about the Qunari. Awesomeness!

Not that I disagree with the rest of your post but I think the Tal'vashoth become murdering marauders because it's the ultimate rejection of their former lives. They do so because it's the opposite of what the Qunari would want. The Qun theoretically represenst the ultimate expression of order and Gaider says that Tal'vashoth are "largely anarchists and terrorists."

Wheras the dalish marauders are taking dalish beleifs to xenophobic extremes.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 25 juin 2013 - 03:54 .

[Who is that Masked Man]

Morocco Mole wrote...

It's almost like both societies have problems. Though elves suck more so qunari ftw

No qunari suck more lolololololo okay I'm done here.

[Who is that Masked Man]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

What punishment did Sten face for murdering a family of farmers and
losing his all-important sword? Oh, that's right: they made him Arishok.
Truly, the mark of a great and enlightened society that holds its
members accountable for their crimes.

In the Qun, if you disagree with your Arishok, or Arigena, or Ariqun, you can.... um. Become Tal-Vashoth, I guess?

Ooh,
speaking of Dalish elves being brigands: Tal'Vashoth. Basically the Qun
produces them. If you don't follow the Qun, you must become a murdering
marauder. That is the honorable thing to do!

Come to think of it, a lot of your complaints about the Dalish are also true about the Qunari. Awesomeness!

Not that I disagree with the rest of your post but I think the Tal'vashoth become murdering marauders because it's the ultimate rejection of their former lives. They do so because it's the opposite of what the Qunari would want. The Qun theoretically represent the ultimate expression of order and Gaider says that Tal'vashoth are "largely anarchist and terrorists."

But what's-his-face the Tal'Vashoth does say that his becoming a mercenary is worse, because he's selling himself for coin.

He flat-out says that by being murdering bandits the Tal'Vashoth are clining to their honor, as per the Qunari definition.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Well, I don't think the Arishok considers the Tal'vashoth to be honorable (no Qunari has a high opinion of Tal'Vashoth), just that being a mercenary (and thus having no principles at all) is worse.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 25 juin 2013 - 03:57 .

[Dave of Canada]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Just like I don't believe Andrastian nations or the Chantry are defined by their worst qualities, I don't think the Dalish deserve to be defined by the murderous raiders among them. They are (ideally) described as "noble wanderers" in the Dalish Origin. So they do in theory place a high value on honor. They also have noble motives, trying to preserve what remains of their culture and looking out for the best interests in their people in the face of persecution or other threats. Exactly how pronounced the racial tensions they have with humans are tends to vary from individual to individual, (just like humans).

My biggest problem is the social structure of the Dalish, they're wandering nomads who hold no accountability to it's own because each one of them is sacred and they all rely on each other to the point that they'd die if the structure collapsed among itself. Meanwhile, they hold everyone else in contempt--including their own bretheren--because of beliefs long held despite no signs indicating it as ever being true.

I didn't mind the Dalish at first, their behavior towards my Human Warden was understandable and they were fairly tolerant of my Dwarven Warden but it's their attitude towards the City Elf, playing the Dalish opening and seeing how brainwashed they were in DA2 is what opened my mind.

They're enslaved by their own stories and will forgive any trangression provided it's Dalish who do it, their hunters deserve a brigand's death by being quartered outside of the capitals and their young and elderly can be introduced to the Alienages.

From there, we can destroy the Elven xenophobia and perhaps slowly intergrate them into society (which will no doubt be a slow process) to the point that humans and elves could co-exist in keeping the mages imprisoned.

[Who is that Masked Man]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Well, I don't think the Arishok considers the Tal'vashoth to be honorable (no Qunari has a high opinion of Tal'Vashoth), just that being a mercenary (and thus having no principles at all) is worse.

Well, that's kind of the point, I think. Tal'vashoth anarchist murdering scum are still considered to be somehow morally superior to a Tal-Vashoth with no guiding principles, like Maraas, who just wants to work as a mercenary.

In other words, the worst of the worst are the Tal'vashoth who aren't actively trying to overthrow the Qun!

As Petrice says, even the Qunari rebels conform to what is expected of them. She's wrong about practically everything, of course, but in that one case she was kind of on the nose.

Even Hawke notes that the Tal'vashoth seem to have embraced the violent outcast role that has been, more or less, assigned to them.

[Who is that Masked Man]

Dave of Canada wrote...

From there, we can destroy the Elven xenophobia and perhaps slowly intergrate them into society (which will no doubt be a slow process) to the point that humans and elves could co-exist in keeping the mages imprisoned.

Oh, right!

I forgot to remind everyone that the Dalish have the most humane and successful system for mage/mundane relations known to Thedas. Their success rate in-game for dealing with Blood Magic and abominations is every bit as high as the Circle, except that with the Dalish, their system didn't collapse under its own limitations and result in worldwide warfare.

Okay, now I'm done.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Well yeah, but saying the Qunari believe that being a murdering thief is the "honorable choice" isn't quite right. It's more like the "despicable choice that it not as bad as something else."

When Hawke tries to explain that he met an honorable Tal'Vashoth, the Arishok's response is "doubtful."

"We lose nothing when weakness abandons the Qun." He also seems to hate the "random violence" of Kirkwall.

There's nothing about them he admires, he just hates mercenaries more.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 25 juin 2013 - 04:23 .

[BlueMagitek]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Except the Qunari believe that everyone must be a snail. Salt is just a vice that bas are obsessed with so nobody ever should have salt.

That is not entirely true, even the bas can be accepted into the Qun.  The Qunari are accepting that way.

Who is that Masked Man wrote...

What punishment
did Sten face for murdering a family of farmers and losing his
all-important sword? Oh, that's right: they made him Arishok. Truly, the
mark of a great and enlightened society that holds its members
accountable for their crimes.

In the Qun, if you disagree with your Arishok, or Arigena, or Ariqun, you can.... um. Become Tal-Vashoth, I guess?

Ooh,
speaking of Dalish elves being brigands: Tal'Vashoth. Basically the Qun
produces them. If you don't follow the Qun, you must become a murdering
marauder. That is the honorable thing to do!

Come to think of it, a lot of your complaints about the Dalish are also true about the Qunari. Awesomeness!

Sten completed his mission and, according to Gaider, probably overwent some re-education on his return.  But yes, making Arishok Arishok was an excellent move for the Qunari people, except for their teeth.

A Qunari is free to prove themselves and become one of the heads of their branches.  And if it comes to pass that the Qun interpretation changes, such a thing occurs.

The Qun does not produce the Tal'Vashoth.  They are those who have turned away from the path to become marauders and are destroyed by the Qunari when encountered.

The Qunari see a problem and take action.  The Dalish see a problem and whine about it.

[bmwcrazy]

I like elves. They cook and clean for me.

[Wompoo]

Lets kill "X" yeah seriously in depth decision making, something that children do in games because it requires little thought and even less imaginative process, easy solutions: a or b, black or white and zero, absolutely zero shades of grey in between. I think BW writers and designers are far more capable (hopefully) of not allowing simplistic genocidal choices into their games, for no other reason then I can (TES is a bs game on this, pointless to the extreme), hopefully they don't allow massacres that add absolutely nothing to a game outside of infantile reason of why not if I want to logic.

[BlueMagitek]

I agree, Wompoo, the rise of the High Elves in TES was silly. The Sea Elves would have beat them like they owed them money. Like they did the first time the High Elves thought about getting uppity.

[The Spirit of Dance]

I'd much rather wipe out the humans.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Except the Qunari believe that everyone must be a snail. Salt is just a vice that bas are obsessed with so nobody ever should have salt.

That is not entirely true, even the bas can be accepted into the Qun.  The Qunari are accepting that way.

In your analogy Qunari are the snails. Love and family and freedom are the salt. The Qunari believe that all bas should submit the Qun and become Qunari. Therefore the Qunari believe that love and family and freedom should not exist anywhere because bas should disregard them to reach enlightment in the Qun.

This is a very bad thing about the Qunari. In fact I'd say it's a flaw in their society that none of the other nations in all of Thedas can match. Even the despicable treatment of slaves in Tevinter or Castless in Orzammar don't make it a point to eradicate the notion of familes on principle.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 26 juin 2013 - 08:56 .

[Maria Caliban]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Of course, it is a Dragon Age tradition that we destroy a Dalish clan every game.

Hacking our way through the genetic flotsam one PC at a time.